Won a match last weekend with Necromancer's Covenant played right after a Rout (played at the end of their turn after they killed the 3rd to last player) against an Animar Deck.
if you play against a lot of creature heavy decks like I do (slivers, Animar, karador, etc) I'd advise adding Necromancer's Covenant because people who have played against you are expecting you to win with the other turn around cards. This adds a little variation.
Good call! I hadn't considered that card for the deck. Although it gives you more resources, it definitely punishes your opponents for having too many as well. Added it to the second post in the considered cards section. Definitely a card most players don't expect.
Hey Rach, just wanted to say that your unique deck inspired me to jump into EDH using my favourite card, Tariel. A while back I made a list nearly identical to yours and have been using it occasionally. I want to remark on how this deck was difficult to pilot the first few times I've brought it out, but that was probably my lack of experience with the playstyle required (I've typically been an aggro player in other formats so it was different having to learn to sit back and sculpt my hand).
I recently took my version of the deck to a Commander tournament at my LGS. This was my first time participating so I've never played against any of the players and their decks there. As much as I wanted to stay true to the deck's playstyle as being the "reactive spectator", I decided to adjust the list slightly towards a more "referee" type. I slotted out the Runes, Gift of Estates, Reverence, and Thunderstaff for a couple board sweepers, a couple of spot removal spells, and ramp. I only suited up the deck this way based on my understanding that the local meta had more cutthroat combo decks and that the games were one hour matches. When it came down to the games I quickly learned that the tournament brought about infinite combo decks and explosive one-turn-kill-everyone type decks. The deck performed in one game but the other times were rough in that one player was going off with their infinite combos when I was tapped out.
Anyways, as much as I'd like to continue pulling out the deck and hoping to snag some turnaround wins, I'm a little disheartened to do so in that other players will eventually learn to play around the deck. However, I'm going to keep tweaking the deck to find what's right for me or to just keep the other players on their toes.
Glad you like the deck! Yeah, it's a bit counterintuitive at first if you're used to playing aggro or being proactive, but it sounds like you've got the hang of it. As for the tournament stuff...
Hi soapzz,
Not to reply for Rachmiel; I have a little commentary on your post.
I too run this deck (mostly the same - just a few differences that I rotate in and out to make it a surprise)... I played at a tourney and this is NOT the deck for competitive play. When prizes are on the line, cut throat decks come out. I won on turn 3 with my Karador/Hermit Druid deck. Literally no fun was had. No thanks were given.
This deck is GREAT, but not for tournament play.
Yeah, that's pretty accurate. You might get lucky once every so often, but it's generally going to get stomped in competitive tournament play. You might be able to make it more competitive, but it would probably involve adding things like tutors or sacrifice some of the deck's theme. I don't think it would still be that effective though. It would help if it at least had blue in it for counters and bounce. If you can pull it off and make it viable for tournaments, I'd love to see it though.
Ask if anyone would be interested in starting a theme deck night or something similar where it's implied that flavorful cards are preferred to optimal cards. If there's interest in the idea, that might work.
That looks good. Best match ups should be Talrand, Elesh Norn, and Omnath. The hardest ones will be Oloro and the colorless guys probably. Try not to get alone with them at the end. Good luck and hope it makes for a good time!
Looking into making some variant of this deck for my playgroup, so thought I'd post up some questions as I come across them.
Harsh Justice seems like a possible inclusion even though it doesn't fog the creatures. Not sure if you view it in the same mold as Eye for an Eye.
Reverence won't have much impact in my playgroup. Wondering if there is some other options for this slot? Maybe Aurification or Silent Arbiter or something I haven't considered...?
I face Nekusar, the Mindrazer frequently so I'm hoping to add a few cards to combat him without having it viewed as hate or too narrow. Therefore, Guardian Seraph is a card I've been looking at as a cheaper form of Urza's Armor. Michiko Konda, Truth Seeker maybe. Not sure if there are any other cards you would recommend?
Council's Judgment plays well against voltron and can serve as some political removal. Looking for an excuse to run it in EDH.
Wondering if recursion in the form of Replenish or Sun Titan is worth running?
Great work on the primer and thanks for any help you can provide.
Thanks! I actually did have Eye for an Eye in the deck at one point. However, as the deck evolved, I cut it for two reasons. The first is that ideally we only want to play our turnaround cards on one turn if possible: the last turn. However, if you're playing paper magic, it won't be a surprise anymore anyway. The second reason though was that since some of the turnaround cards hurts us potentially like Acidic Soil or Rakdos Charm, we really value keeping our life total higher than the other players. So while Batwing Brume may not deal as much damage as Harsh Justice, the fog effect is pretty important. They're both fun cards though, especially Harsh Justice, so if you can afford to include them, you can.
One of the posters above said that they were having luck with Gossamer Chains, so that could replace Reverence. While I'm not a huge fan of it, Ghostly Prison would also work. Out of those two, I'd much rather use Aurification. Silent Arbiter is actually counterproductive to the deck because it limits what your opponents can do to each other, and we actually want a lot of combat going on...just not directed at us.
For dealing with Nekusar, the Mindrazer, I like both Urza's Armor and Michiko Konda, Truth Seeker. I have an aversion to creatures in general with this deck, but Guardian Seraph could be okay. And both the Armor and Seraph will protect you from more than just Nekusar such as some combo decks or things like Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind or Pestilence which is nice. You also actually already would have No Mercy and Dread in the deck both of which kill Nekusar as well. All of the above are probably good options. It just depends if you want Nekusar to stick around and hit other people or you want to kill him before he gets going. If you want to take out a card to fit more of those in, Thunderstaff would be the one to cut. If Reverence isn't good in your meta, Thunderstaff potentially might have limited upside as well and fulfills a similar function to the cards above.
To replace Forcefield, I like them in the order you posted them: Story Circle, Righteous Aura, Nova Pentacle, Pentagram of the Ages. While Righteous Aura is more versatile than Story Circle, I really don't like that you have to pay life for it since we don't have a ton of ways to replenish life in this deck. Nova Pentacle is there if you want to have fun. Pentagram is just too expensive for my tastes.
Council's Judgment will be good in the deck, but the only things you'll ever want to take out with it are super utility creatures like Prophet of Kruphix which will never deal major damage to anyone but provide the card's owner a significant advantage.
Replenish might be okay if you have a meta where enchantments get destroyed a lot. However, I'd skip Sun Titan entirely because it's a great target to steal, reanimate, or clone, and you have to attack someone in order to use it effectively which we really don't want to do. Skull of Orm might be okay for some recursion but it's a bit expensive. It will give you something to do with extra mana though.
I wanted to share some new cards that I've had success with the past few months while playing this deck, in hopes that others may find it useful when playing within their pods.
This card is super fun and very effective at dissuading players from attacking you in multiplayer games, while not necessarily making you a target. It allows you to "put the blame" on another opponent if someone decides to attack you. Our deck also doesn't play many creatures so it's rare that our creatures get chosen to receive the damage from the attack.
This card is a very effective repeatable fog. I find that in most of my games I'm constantly just looking for things to do with my mana instead of just dumping enchantments/artifacts on the field at risk of getting blown out by a board wipe. This lets me constantly look like a poor target to attack to most of my opponents and doesn't make you waste a card to do so.
The deck continues to impress my usual pod of EDH players along with new ones I meet every now and then. I'm always having a blast playing it in casual games as opposed to playing it when I don't want to "try hard" or think very much with my competitive decks. My friends are completely bewildered at how I can enjoy playing the deck when most of my turns consist of "land, pass" but as long as i'm staying busy activating my Journeyer's Kite or doing something else, i'm having fun just standing by watching... and waiting.
Hope you all continue to have as much fun and success playing this deck as I have!
Glad it's going well!
Nova Pentacle actually used to be in a version of this deck before I made the thread. The online meta seemed to become more competitive over time though, and I decided to ditch it for something more effective. It's a really fun card though that usually gets people saying, "Wait, it does what?" To clarify the card for those of you who have never seen it before, imagine that there are players A, B, C, and D. We're player A. Player B attacks us with a 5/5. In response, we activate the pentacle and choose player C. Player C decides to deal the damage to player D's Prophet of Kruphix, killing it.
Gossamer Chains is an interesting card because it causes people to have to over-commit resources (attackers in this case) when targeting you which is something people don't like to do. So it may do more to prevent people from swinging at you by sitting there than actually using it. While it can't evade a board wipe since you have to target an unblocked attacker, it may not be on the board at the moment when someone wipes it. And yeah, being repeatable is always nice. I put both of those cards under the "Cards I've Considered" section.
Also,
Having RfunR just standing by WwatchingW...and BwaitingB.
could easily be a tagline for the deck and is definitely something only someone who has played the deck a lot would say. That definitely brought a smile to my face because it really captures the spirit of the deck. Of course the "...and waiting" part is the great punchline you say with a knowing look in your eyes. Again, glad the deck has been providing some good times, and I'll be sure to keep looking for new cards as new sets come out!
Ok, I have been glancing at this list for a while now, and I have taken a look at your you-tube videos and I am compelled to tell you that I really enjoy your commander play style.
I'm hoping to run a list similar to yours and will post it and my results playing it eventually, if your interested :), though I think mine will attempt to be a pyrohemia/pestilence/et-al package... using things like darksteel mutation to keep it around. And I realize that is probably too aggressive of a strategy, but I want to put a personal spin on it and see what comes of it.
p.s. I was wondering about your thoughts on Sydri, Galvanic Genius and a good play-style with her?
Thank you very much! I'm always interested in how people make their own take on the deck, so I'd definitely be interested in hearing about the results if you'll share them. As far as a playstyle for Sydri that seems fun:
1. Voltron where the equipments double as beaters.
2. Focus on turning other things (enchantments or lands) into artifacts (and then into creatures) and then playing cards that make keeping creatures around difficult.
3. Pingers like Acorn Catapult, Bullwhip, Armageddon Clock, Caltrops, or Ankh of Mishra taking advantage of the lifelink and deathtouch.
4. Any combination of the above.
I just have to say, this entire primer is mind-blowing and awesome. I have never wanted to make a Commander deck more badly than I want to make this one now, and it has made me seriously reevaluate my Zedruu deck, and my decks in general. Thank you
I'll have to make my way back to page 1 and check out that section that I some how overlooked. Thanks for the suggestions I'll see if I have anything worth sharing after some battles with a 5 color general running the same ideals as your Tariel.
Played my version of your deck last night (won by the way. Repay in Kind (4 Life) + Rakdos Charm (to the Brago deck killed him) + sent four 2/2 flying vampire tokens from Bloodline Keeper to the last 2 players who couldn't block flying (thanks to Brago bouncing all their flyers away.)
And I started to really look at Tariel and how he really serves little to no function to the deck's strategy and could easily be replaced. But since the other 2 options aren't much better in RWB...I thought about any 5 color general to splash in like 5-10ish other cards and just swap out lands for ones that make any color.
Can't think of good turnaround cards in other colors tho
thoughts?
Glad it worked well! Yeah, Tariel doesn't provide a whole lot herself.
I never wrote up anything for five color, but there is a section in the main post talking about a RWU and RGW version of the deck which I really recommend reading if you haven't already. It's called "Other Commanders". It covers a RW version too. From Blue for turnaround cards, you get Cerebral Vortex, Swerve, and Essence Backlash. Blue also gives access to Teferi's Moat, Cloud Cover, Hanna, Ship's Navigator, and Isperia, Supreme Judge.
I'm not a big fan of Edric since I feel like it would just be giving cards away, but if your version has more creatures then it might work. I also don't care for Rite of Replication since I don't like having creatures myself if possible because it makes me look dangerous sometimes. Gahiji is cool and would be the commander of the Naya version. I prefer Baleful Strix over the Recluse, Archer, Gomazoa, Wall of Denial, and Fog Bank since it replaces itself. Diviner Spirit is funny but I probably wouldn't use it since it involves attacking someone. Counterspells are fine as long as you only use them to stop things that would end the game. Or countering something that would destroy your defenses is fine too. You just don't want to use a counterspell if you really don't have to. Ramp is always welcome as long as you're not stepping on your own toes with Acidic Soil. Cards like Sphinx's Revelation that are instant speed and can be played at end of turn seem like the kind of Blue cards that would really help this deck.
I miss the arrows. Please bring them back.
Everything's too small even when you make it as big as it can be.
You can't dock the stack or preview pane and it clumsily covers up part of the field.
I don't like the red zone. Make it go away forever.
I don't like horizontal phases. Looking across the entire screen feels bad.
I don't like how the graveyard, hand, and library numbers are shown.
It's horrendous. And I don't think it's just a "Oh, I'll eventually get used to this" kind of thing. It's just terrible.
to help with the turnaround cards that punish them for having too many creatures?
I generally don't like to use stuff like that for the same reason I don't use tutors or things like Wall of Blood with Soul Conduit or Repay in Kind. It makes the victory more likely but less amazing. In this case, it's not as amazing since you "encourage" them to overextend instead of letting it be their own choice completely. It also makes you an active player who is trying to manipulate and influence the board state (which is fine, it just depends on your style of play) as opposed to a passive player who really wants nothing to do with the board state if they can help it while waiting for the best time to strike. It's kind of a personal preference though, so if it's more fun for you to give tokens (selectively or not) then I think it would be fine to do.
I think Sol Ring kind of depends on the situation? Let's say I'm playing a 4 player free for all on MTGO and one guy is playing Kraken tribal. He drops a Sol Ring. I think to myself, "Oh, he's off to a quick start. By the end of the game though, 2 colorless mana isn't going to be that big of a deal." Now let's say it's the same scenario but I'm playing with Mox. Now I think to myself, "Oh, I now have potentially 1 or 2 less turns to stop him from winning." See the difference? Because of this, I don't think it calls for a universal ban. You just have to be a little more aggressive with your answers and threats if you see a player who you think can win before turn 5 or 6 if they're uninterrupted drop a Sol Ring.
That one definitely caught my eye. I'm thinking it might replace Captain's Maneuver possibly. Can't wait to see how the rest of the set shakes out.
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
Good call! I hadn't considered that card for the deck. Although it gives you more resources, it definitely punishes your opponents for having too many as well. Added it to the second post in the considered cards section. Definitely a card most players don't expect.
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
Glad you like the deck! Yeah, it's a bit counterintuitive at first if you're used to playing aggro or being proactive, but it sounds like you've got the hang of it. As for the tournament stuff...
Yeah, that's pretty accurate. You might get lucky once every so often, but it's generally going to get stomped in competitive tournament play. You might be able to make it more competitive, but it would probably involve adding things like tutors or sacrifice some of the deck's theme. I don't think it would still be that effective though. It would help if it at least had blue in it for counters and bounce. If you can pull it off and make it viable for tournaments, I'd love to see it though.
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
That looks good. Best match ups should be Talrand, Elesh Norn, and Omnath. The hardest ones will be Oloro and the colorless guys probably. Try not to get alone with them at the end. Good luck and hope it makes for a good time!
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
Thanks! I actually did have Eye for an Eye in the deck at one point. However, as the deck evolved, I cut it for two reasons. The first is that ideally we only want to play our turnaround cards on one turn if possible: the last turn. However, if you're playing paper magic, it won't be a surprise anymore anyway. The second reason though was that since some of the turnaround cards hurts us potentially like Acidic Soil or Rakdos Charm, we really value keeping our life total higher than the other players. So while Batwing Brume may not deal as much damage as Harsh Justice, the fog effect is pretty important. They're both fun cards though, especially Harsh Justice, so if you can afford to include them, you can.
One of the posters above said that they were having luck with Gossamer Chains, so that could replace Reverence. While I'm not a huge fan of it, Ghostly Prison would also work. Out of those two, I'd much rather use Aurification. Silent Arbiter is actually counterproductive to the deck because it limits what your opponents can do to each other, and we actually want a lot of combat going on...just not directed at us.
For dealing with Nekusar, the Mindrazer, I like both Urza's Armor and Michiko Konda, Truth Seeker. I have an aversion to creatures in general with this deck, but Guardian Seraph could be okay. And both the Armor and Seraph will protect you from more than just Nekusar such as some combo decks or things like Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind or Pestilence which is nice. You also actually already would have No Mercy and Dread in the deck both of which kill Nekusar as well. All of the above are probably good options. It just depends if you want Nekusar to stick around and hit other people or you want to kill him before he gets going. If you want to take out a card to fit more of those in, Thunderstaff would be the one to cut. If Reverence isn't good in your meta, Thunderstaff potentially might have limited upside as well and fulfills a similar function to the cards above.
To replace Forcefield, I like them in the order you posted them: Story Circle, Righteous Aura, Nova Pentacle, Pentagram of the Ages. While Righteous Aura is more versatile than Story Circle, I really don't like that you have to pay life for it since we don't have a ton of ways to replenish life in this deck. Nova Pentacle is there if you want to have fun. Pentagram is just too expensive for my tastes.
Council's Judgment will be good in the deck, but the only things you'll ever want to take out with it are super utility creatures like Prophet of Kruphix which will never deal major damage to anyone but provide the card's owner a significant advantage.
Replenish might be okay if you have a meta where enchantments get destroyed a lot. However, I'd skip Sun Titan entirely because it's a great target to steal, reanimate, or clone, and you have to attack someone in order to use it effectively which we really don't want to do. Skull of Orm might be okay for some recursion but it's a bit expensive. It will give you something to do with extra mana though.
Hope that helps and good luck!
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
Glad it's going well!
Nova Pentacle actually used to be in a version of this deck before I made the thread. The online meta seemed to become more competitive over time though, and I decided to ditch it for something more effective. It's a really fun card though that usually gets people saying, "Wait, it does what?" To clarify the card for those of you who have never seen it before, imagine that there are players A, B, C, and D. We're player A. Player B attacks us with a 5/5. In response, we activate the pentacle and choose player C. Player C decides to deal the damage to player D's Prophet of Kruphix, killing it.
Gossamer Chains is an interesting card because it causes people to have to over-commit resources (attackers in this case) when targeting you which is something people don't like to do. So it may do more to prevent people from swinging at you by sitting there than actually using it. While it can't evade a board wipe since you have to target an unblocked attacker, it may not be on the board at the moment when someone wipes it. And yeah, being repeatable is always nice. I put both of those cards under the "Cards I've Considered" section.
Also, could easily be a tagline for the deck and is definitely something only someone who has played the deck a lot would say. That definitely brought a smile to my face because it really captures the spirit of the deck. Of course the "...and waiting" part is the great punchline you say with a knowing look in your eyes. Again, glad the deck has been providing some good times, and I'll be sure to keep looking for new cards as new sets come out!
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
Thank you very much! I'm always interested in how people make their own take on the deck, so I'd definitely be interested in hearing about the results if you'll share them. As far as a playstyle for Sydri that seems fun:
1. Voltron where the equipments double as beaters.
2. Focus on turning other things (enchantments or lands) into artifacts (and then into creatures) and then playing cards that make keeping creatures around difficult.
3. Pingers like Acorn Catapult, Bullwhip, Armageddon Clock, Caltrops, or Ankh of Mishra taking advantage of the lifelink and deathtouch.
4. Any combination of the above.
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
Haha, thanks! Glad you liked it!
Sounds good! Hopefully it goes well!
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
Glad it worked well! Yeah, Tariel doesn't provide a whole lot herself.
I never wrote up anything for five color, but there is a section in the main post talking about a RWU and RGW version of the deck which I really recommend reading if you haven't already. It's called "Other Commanders". It covers a RW version too. From Blue for turnaround cards, you get Cerebral Vortex, Swerve, and Essence Backlash. Blue also gives access to Teferi's Moat, Cloud Cover, Hanna, Ship's Navigator, and Isperia, Supreme Judge.
Green sucks with turnaround besides for Storm Seeker, but it has some awesome defensive cards like Dawnstrider, Constant Mists, Spike Weaver, Radiant Kavu, Briar Patch, Privileged Position, and especially Arboria. Chord of Calling plus Stormbreath Dragon is expensive but funny. Praetor's Counsel may help too.
I'm not a big fan of Edric since I feel like it would just be giving cards away, but if your version has more creatures then it might work. I also don't care for Rite of Replication since I don't like having creatures myself if possible because it makes me look dangerous sometimes. Gahiji is cool and would be the commander of the Naya version. I prefer Baleful Strix over the Recluse, Archer, Gomazoa, Wall of Denial, and Fog Bank since it replaces itself. Diviner Spirit is funny but I probably wouldn't use it since it involves attacking someone. Counterspells are fine as long as you only use them to stop things that would end the game. Or countering something that would destroy your defenses is fine too. You just don't want to use a counterspell if you really don't have to. Ramp is always welcome as long as you're not stepping on your own toes with Acidic Soil. Cards like Sphinx's Revelation that are instant speed and can be played at end of turn seem like the kind of Blue cards that would really help this deck.
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
Everything's too small even when you make it as big as it can be.
You can't dock the stack or preview pane and it clumsily covers up part of the field.
I don't like the red zone. Make it go away forever.
I don't like horizontal phases. Looking across the entire screen feels bad.
I don't like how the graveyard, hand, and library numbers are shown.
It's horrendous. And I don't think it's just a "Oh, I'll eventually get used to this" kind of thing. It's just terrible.
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
I generally don't like to use stuff like that for the same reason I don't use tutors or things like Wall of Blood with Soul Conduit or Repay in Kind. It makes the victory more likely but less amazing. In this case, it's not as amazing since you "encourage" them to overextend instead of letting it be their own choice completely. It also makes you an active player who is trying to manipulate and influence the board state (which is fine, it just depends on your style of play) as opposed to a passive player who really wants nothing to do with the board state if they can help it while waiting for the best time to strike. It's kind of a personal preference though, so if it's more fun for you to give tokens (selectively or not) then I think it would be fine to do.
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
2. Is it fun for me to play?
3. Is it fun for my opponents to play against?
4. Can it actually win games?
1 and 2 are pretty easy. Most deck ideas stop at 3 or 4.
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU