I dont understand how these two cards are functionally different when it comes to the "exile forever" part
we remember from O-ring.
Can someone point to the rules that makes BL work differently in that situation ?
(Exile forever; in response to the enter the battlefield trigger the O-ring card is sacrificed for some other effect or returned to hand with some spell. The exile effect still happens because that trigger is on the stack independently from the source card(o-ring). The leave the battlefield trigger won`t ever happen because that card will be a new object if it ever gets to enter battlefield again later that game.)
Oblivion ring works this way because it has two separate triggered abilities that cause it to do what you indicated. Banishing Light does not contain triggered abilities, therefore you cannot play tricks with it like you can with Oblivion Ring.
1) It's a multiplayer game. Alice controls Bob during Bob's next turn. It's Bob's next turn, so Alice controls Bob. During Bob's main phase, Alice leaves the game. Assuming this is a multiplayer game, what happens to Bob? Does he regain control of himself? Does the turn immediately end? I've been trying to find a rule that mentions what happens, but I have been unable to do so, so a rules citation would be appreciated.
2) It's a Two-Headed Giant game. Alice and Bob are on one team, and Carol and Darren are on the other. An effect is generated that states that Alice controls Carol. Carol and Darren's turn begins. Normally, Carol and Darren are the two players who get to make decisions for themselves, but in this case, would Alice and Darren be those two players, or does Alice control both Carol and Darren during that turn?
3) An effect is generated that says that Bob controls Alice. Later, an effect is generated that says that Alice controls Bob. It's true that Alice controls Bob and Alice controls Alice; however, does Alice "regain" control of herself this way?
1. As the previous poster said, once the player leaves the game, his control of Bob's turn ends. Now Bob has control of his own turn. The turn will not end.
2. What cscott said is correct
3. Yes.
When the die effect happens, can it the effects be stacked in such a way that you can pass the +1/+1 counters onto another creature while having Undying then trigger? I'm of the thought that Modular counters the Undying trigger and the Modular triggers onto the artifact creature with the Modular creature going to graveyard and just staying there not coming back.
Undying is a conditional triggered ability. That is, the ability uses an intervening IF("When this creature dies, IF it had no +1/+1 counters on it..."). So the undying will only trigger IF the condtion is met(it has no +1/+1 counters on it). The game doesn't care where the +1/+1 counters came from.
Amadeus, what you have is two abilities triggering at the same time: The Geist's Undying ability(belonging to your opponent) and your Valkyrie ability to return it to play under your control. In the game of Magic when two or more abilities controlled by different players(both you and your opponent in a 1 on 1 match), first the active players puts all of his or her abilities on the stack in any order he or she chooses. Then, the non active player(you) puts your abilities on top of your opponent's abilities on the stack in any order you choose. This is called APNAP or Active Player Non Active Player. Your ability will resolve and bring the Geist back into play under your control. Then your opponent's ability tries to resolve, but since the Geist changed zones, the undying ability does nothing. As was indicated previously, the term fizzle is no longer used in magic. We either say nothing happens or a spell or ability is "countered on resolution".
As of right now, I understand the reasoning behind the ruling. What I am saying is that I do not agree with how it is worded. I disagree with how the word lethal damage is used with deathtouch.
In my view, the trample + deathtouch interaction should not be able to just push through indestructible or protection creatures who have sufficient toughness.
I get that it's the rule the way it is worded, I just don't like it.
What would be the point of deathtouch if it didn't work that way?
No matter what, if the target isn't enchanted the Daybreak Coronet would fall off regardless.
However, he has a specific question about a Sun Titan ability bringing back Daybreak Coronet, so the proper ruling is that it will stay in the zone it is in(assuming it's not the stack) if there is no legal object and if he has no creatures that are enchanted with an aura, then there are no legal objects and it just stays there. There is no "falling off the creature" in this case.
I think the problem you are having is that you are misunderstanding what "lethal" damage means. Lethal damage does not=assigning damage equal to the toughness of the creature. It means assigning enough damage to be considered lethal. Again, assigning damage does NOT equal actually DEALING damage. The rules specifically state "...take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other creatures that’s being assigned during the same combat damage step, but not any abilities or effects that might change the amount of damage that’s actually dealt...".
There is nothing in the rules that actually says you have to assign damage equal to the toughness of a creature. The rules simply state that you have to assign "lethal" damage to all blockers before assigning damage to the defending player. Deathtouch is an ability that modifies how much damage needs to be assigned in order to be considered lethal.
Just want to make sure I'm understanding Daybreak Coronet correctly. I get that if I cast it, in order to have a legal target the creature must have another aura attached. But say I recur it, like with Sun Titan. Can I attach it to an auraless creature (since I'm not targeting)? But even if I can it seems like due to the first rule in Gatherer will make DC fall off again. Am I correct?
It is true that you are not targeting when you return an aura from the graveyard with Sun Titan's ability. However, Daybreak Coronet has a restriction of its own. It says "Enchant creature with another aura attached to it". That is where 303.4g applies when it says "...If an aura is entering the battlefield and there is no legal object or player for it to enchant, the aura remains in its current zone, unless that zone is the stack.." What makes an object illegal in the case of Daybreak Coronet is the fact that it requires a creature that already has an aura attached to it. If there is no creature that already has an aura attached to it, then it will simply remain in the graveyard.
Spectators can be penalized and reported the DCI even if they have nothing to do with the tournament.
The recipient of a Disqualification does not need to be a player in the tournament. He or she may be a spectator or other bystander. If this happens, he or she must be entered into the tournament in Wizards Event Reporter (“WER”) so that he or she may be disqualified and reported to the DCI.
While I agree that you don't need to be in an event to be penalized by the DCI, I think the person was specifically referring to someone that is not a Magic player and doesn't even have a DCI number(at least that's how I understand "a person who is not a Magic player". My understanding is that the DCI itself only deals with members of the DCI(that is people that have a DCI number). Someone can correct me if I am wrong on that one :).
I know this topic is already two weeks old, but I didn't want to let this stand wrong as it is: With - for example - Crystal Shard, a Wormfang Manta and enough reusable mana sources to produce 5UUU, it is actually possible to create infinite turns.
Generally the turn order looks like this from left to right for a two-player game with players A and B:
Current turn(1): A
Following turns: B A B A B A ...
Now it is player A's turn and they cast the Manta. The first ability triggers and resolves and they skip their next turn, making the turn order look like this:
Current turn(1): A
Following turns: B _ B A B A ...
Then they activate the Crystal Shard returning the Manta triggering and resolving the other ability to gain an extra turn (which takes place after the current turn).
Current turn(1): A
Following Turns: A B _ B A B A ...
Player A now passes and it will be their turn again.
Current turn (2): A
Following Turns: B _ B A B A ...
They again cast the Manta let the trigger resolve bounce it and let the other trigger resolve.
Current Turn (2): A
Following Turns: A B _ B _ B A ...
This can be repeated any number of times and all the skipped turns don't matter because the extra turn created from the Manta's second trigger will always happen first and it can never be skipped because it isn't there yet, when the Manta's first trigger resolves.
I think you are confusing this with the interaction of Mesmeric Fiend and removing it before its enter the battlefield trigger resolves. There is an important difference here. Mesmeric Fiend says that when it comes into play you look at a player's hand and remove a non land card from it. Its leave the battliefield ability says you return the card to its owner's hand when it leaves the battlefield. If you cause it to leave the battlefield before the first ability resolves, it cannot return the card because the card has not yet been removed. Then a card is removed and is removed permanently. Turns don't work that way. As was indicated, when a turn is skipped the game will skip whatever next turn you would take. If that is an extra turn, then you simply skip your extra turn. It is a replacement effect basically saying, "The next time you would take a turn, instead skip that turn."
Well, not sure I would have put it that way, but that rule is rather irrelevant for the question at hand. The Adept requires you to reveal the card to play it without paying an additonal 3. You did that. Your spell goes to the stack. Then playing the card you were talking about(assuming you can play a sorcery at instant speed as you indicated) will not affect the Adept resolving.
I said the above with regards to the first question, which is when exactly during the casting process that the other Merfolk card is revealed. You are correct in that the timing of the reveal is irrelevant to the second question, but it has much to do with the first.
Well, that entire process is referred to as announcing the spell. Reference 601.2b for instance:
601.2b If the spell is modal the player announces the mode choice (see rule 700.2). If the player
wishes to splice any cards onto the spell (see rule 702.46), he or she reveals those cards in his or
her hand. If the spell has alternative or additional costs that will be paid as it’s being cast such as
buyback or kicker costs (see rules 117.8 and 117.9), the player announces his or her intentions
to pay any or all of those costs (see rule 601.2e). A player can’t apply two alternative methods
of casting or two alternative costs to a single spell. If the spell has a variable cost that
will be paid as it’s being cast (such as an {X} in its mana cost; see rule 107.3), the player announces the
value of that variable. If a cost that will be paid as the spell is being cast includes hybrid mana
symbols, the player announces the nonhybrid equivalent cost he or she intends to pay. If a cost
that will be paid as the spell is being cast includes Phyrexian mana symbols, the player
announces whether he or she intends to pay 2 life or the corresponding colored mana cost for
each of those symbols. Previously made choices (such as choosing to cast a spell with flashback
from a graveyard or choosing to cast a creature with morph face down) may restrict the player’s
options when making these choices.
To ignore a rule because it's outright incorrect is one thing, but to ignore a rule just because it and another rule contradict each other and that it is less specific than the other rule isn't the proper thing to do.
Should it just be personal judgment call on this one, or is the logic that I stated above incorrect?
Well, not sure I would have put it that way, but that rule is rather irrelevant for the question at hand. The Adept requires you to reveal the card to play it without paying an additonal 3. You did that. Your spell goes to the stack. Then playing the card you were talking about(assuming you can play a sorcery at instant speed as you indicated) will not affect the Adept resolving.
SBE are checked before anything goes on the stack. So legend rule applies, then you can select the one in the graveyard to return. And you can do this endlessly.
Not exactly endlessly. An infinite loop will only occur when all actions taken are mandatory game actions. Even if the Sharuum is the ONLY artifact in the graveyard, not all the actions are mandatory as the wording on Sharuum says "you MAY return target artifact card from the graveyard to play". You can choose to do this a lot of times, but you will have to stop at some point.
Last known information is used so that Blood Artist and Reaper see other creatures dying when they die at the same time. They both trigger once for every creature that dies. So, assuming 4 creatures died, they will both trigger four times. Now, in order for Savra to work, you have to have already sacrificed a creature. Neither Blood Artist nor Reaper will work for the Savra ability. They have to be in play when the spell or ability that causes a creature or creatures to go to the graveyard resolves. So, assuming you did sacrifice the Blood Artist and the Reaper, you will not get to put their activations on the stack for Savra's ability.
Oblivion ring works this way because it has two separate triggered abilities that cause it to do what you indicated. Banishing Light does not contain triggered abilities, therefore you cannot play tricks with it like you can with Oblivion Ring.
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1. As the previous poster said, once the player leaves the game, his control of Bob's turn ends. Now Bob has control of his own turn. The turn will not end.
2. What cscott said is correct
3. Yes.
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Undying is a conditional triggered ability. That is, the ability uses an intervening IF("When this creature dies, IF it had no +1/+1 counters on it..."). So the undying will only trigger IF the condtion is met(it has no +1/+1 counters on it). The game doesn't care where the +1/+1 counters came from.
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What would be the point of deathtouch if it didn't work that way?
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However, he has a specific question about a Sun Titan ability bringing back Daybreak Coronet, so the proper ruling is that it will stay in the zone it is in(assuming it's not the stack) if there is no legal object and if he has no creatures that are enchanted with an aura, then there are no legal objects and it just stays there. There is no "falling off the creature" in this case.
New to Commander? Read the Above article.
There is nothing in the rules that actually says you have to assign damage equal to the toughness of a creature. The rules simply state that you have to assign "lethal" damage to all blockers before assigning damage to the defending player. Deathtouch is an ability that modifies how much damage needs to be assigned in order to be considered lethal.
New to Commander? Read the Above article.
It is true that you are not targeting when you return an aura from the graveyard with Sun Titan's ability. However, Daybreak Coronet has a restriction of its own. It says "Enchant creature with another aura attached to it". That is where 303.4g applies when it says "...If an aura is entering the battlefield and there is no legal object or player for it to enchant, the aura remains in its current zone, unless that zone is the stack.." What makes an object illegal in the case of Daybreak Coronet is the fact that it requires a creature that already has an aura attached to it. If there is no creature that already has an aura attached to it, then it will simply remain in the graveyard.
New to Commander? Read the Above article.
While I agree that you don't need to be in an event to be penalized by the DCI, I think the person was specifically referring to someone that is not a Magic player and doesn't even have a DCI number(at least that's how I understand "a person who is not a Magic player". My understanding is that the DCI itself only deals with members of the DCI(that is people that have a DCI number). Someone can correct me if I am wrong on that one :).
New to Commander? Read the Above article.
I think you are confusing this with the interaction of Mesmeric Fiend and removing it before its enter the battlefield trigger resolves. There is an important difference here. Mesmeric Fiend says that when it comes into play you look at a player's hand and remove a non land card from it. Its leave the battliefield ability says you return the card to its owner's hand when it leaves the battlefield. If you cause it to leave the battlefield before the first ability resolves, it cannot return the card because the card has not yet been removed. Then a card is removed and is removed permanently. Turns don't work that way. As was indicated, when a turn is skipped the game will skip whatever next turn you would take. If that is an extra turn, then you simply skip your extra turn. It is a replacement effect basically saying, "The next time you would take a turn, instead skip that turn."
New to Commander? Read the Above article.
Well, that entire process is referred to as announcing the spell. Reference 601.2b for instance:
601.2b If the spell is modal the player announces the mode choice (see rule 700.2). If the player
wishes to splice any cards onto the spell (see rule 702.46), he or she reveals those cards in his or
her hand. If the spell has alternative or additional costs that will be paid as it’s being cast such as
buyback or kicker costs (see rules 117.8 and 117.9), the player announces his or her intentions
to pay any or all of those costs (see rule 601.2e). A player can’t apply two alternative methods
of casting or two alternative costs to a single spell. If the spell has a variable cost that
will be paid as it’s being cast (such as an {X} in its mana cost; see rule 107.3), the player announces the
value of that variable. If a cost that will be paid as the spell is being cast includes hybrid mana
symbols, the player announces the nonhybrid equivalent cost he or she intends to pay. If a cost
that will be paid as the spell is being cast includes Phyrexian mana symbols, the player
announces whether he or she intends to pay 2 life or the corresponding colored mana cost for
each of those symbols. Previously made choices (such as choosing to cast a spell with flashback
from a graveyard or choosing to cast a creature with morph face down) may restrict the player’s
options when making these choices.
I hope this helps.
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Well, not sure I would have put it that way, but that rule is rather irrelevant for the question at hand. The Adept requires you to reveal the card to play it without paying an additonal 3. You did that. Your spell goes to the stack. Then playing the card you were talking about(assuming you can play a sorcery at instant speed as you indicated) will not affect the Adept resolving.
New to Commander? Read the Above article.
Not exactly endlessly. An infinite loop will only occur when all actions taken are mandatory game actions. Even if the Sharuum is the ONLY artifact in the graveyard, not all the actions are mandatory as the wording on Sharuum says "you MAY return target artifact card from the graveyard to play". You can choose to do this a lot of times, but you will have to stop at some point.
New to Commander? Read the Above article.
New to Commander? Read the Above article.