Azorius Charm is nuts. People ranking it 6-10th are completely clueless and should have their DCI cards revoked. How many charms are 4-ofs? Now, how many of those are 4-ofs in multiple decks? Yeah.
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Wow. Evolve is really a great, flavorful mechanic.
I really hope the other remaining guilds have equally great mechanics. I still feel like Rakdos and Selesnya got a bit screwed in the mechanic department.
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My sideboard is a mess, and that's where most of my energy will go in testing over the next week (I'm playing in a Standard tournament tonight as well). I was going to test out Martial Law against Jund Midrange, but ended up not siding it in. Psychic Spiral + Jace Memory Adept is for control mirrors. I can mill myself with Jace and then use Psychic Spiral. It happened once last night, and was mildly effective, but probably too cute to work consistently. For it to be an effective rogue strategy, you need your opponent to be milling you, and you need to either draw Psychic Spiral and Jace, or you need to draw Jace and flashback your milled Psychic Spiral with Snapcaster. It's not consistent enough.
Thoughts on the main board:
Azorius Charm is starting to disappoint me. It's awful against Thragtusk and Restoration Angel, which I see a ton of. Its cycling is nice and its lifelink is good in a pinch, but I wouldn't run more than 3. I may go down to 2 in favor of 3 Feeling of Dread.
Terminus is an automatic 4-of, in my opinion. You don't have to tap out to play it for its miracle cost, and there were times when I was actually happy to see it in my opening hand in certain matchups (like the mirror). Putting your opponent's creatures somewhere where they can't recast them next turn (like Azorius Charm) is much more powerful.
Feeling of Dread is an MVP. I think I may actually like it more than Azorius Charm. I was able to ultimate Tamiyo 4 times last night, and Feeling of Dread was often the reason. Drawing a single Feeling of Dread gives your PWs 2 turns to do whatever they want, which also allows you time to draw answers (or more dig spells) to deal with their threats. I am currently running 2, but any number between 1-3 is what I would suggest. I might try to run 3 today and see how it goes. Drawing Feeling of Dread with a Tamiyo on the board almost felt like game over for my opponent.
Supreme Verdict's real value is in being uncountable, not being a board wipe (in my experience). Yes, a board wipe is nice many times, but with so many American and Bant lists running around, all you want is an uncountable kill spell many times, board wipe or not. Running more than 2 main deck is the wrong move, in my opinion, since you need the extra room for 4 Terminus. I'm running 1 main and 3 side, and I'm going to stick to that number, probably. It's working for me so far.
Nephalia Drownyards gave me a good control mirror matchup in game 1, which is very important since you often won't finish game 2. I went 2-0-1 against control lists last night. 2 Bant Control and 1 Esper PW Control. One of my draws was the first place Bant Control matchup. In Game 2 (which he won after I took game 1), he was able to resolve all 4 of his Thratusks, yet I still got him down to 1 life. Pretty crazy. I was still happy to draw that final round, as he's a skilled player.
Cyclonic Rift is a great swiss army knife. Early game it can give you a chance to counter a spell you might have not been able to counter when it was originally cast (like a PW, which isn't easy for us to deal with unless we want to go on the offensive with our spirit tokens early). Late game it can completely, utterly decimate your opponent. I think the most permanents I've returned to one players hand was an Underworld Connections, a Rakdos Keyrune, 2 Beast tokens, a Thragtusk, and a Garruk Primal Hunter. Needless to say, I won that game. The tempo swing was too great for my Jund opponent to recover from, and I was able to ultimate Tamiyo due to the additional time it gave me. This card is great as a 1 or 2-of, since it can be used at any stage of the game on almost any permanent, and since it's INSANE when overloaded.
Forbidden Alchemy is a card that I was never sad to see. With games going as long as they are, 3 mana at instant speed is chump change, and your chance of finding a threat is very high. Due to the length of games, I see no reason to run Think Twice over Forbidden Alchemy. In fact, even if your meta game is overflowing with fast decks, I would still recommend Alchemy over Think Twice since it can help you stabilize by digging for a board wipe or other answer. My favorite scenario is grabbing a PW, pitching Lingering Souls, and then being able to cast my PW and Lingering Souls for protection in the same turn. Very powerful. Running less than 3 is a bad idea, in my opinion. I would run 4 if I had the room, but 3 is a good number. 4 Jace + 3 Forbidden Alchemy is pretty insane. I never felt like I had an empty hand between those two cards. Think Twice is not nearly as good, in my opinion. The Esper PWs list I beat was running 2-3 Think Twice, and it didn't seem to do him much good. He was always casting it in response to my PWs to try to dig for a counter, but never could find one. A Forbidden Alchemy would have been better for him, in that scenario. He was only running 2-3 counterspells, I believe.
Counter spells. I like playing with very few of them main. Most players still play around them (especially if you pretend like you have them in your hand from the get-go, even when you don't), and you can side in Negates and more counters when you need them. I may opt for 1 or 2 more counters in the side. Probably 1 Dissipate and 1 Syncopate, since they're both useful in different situations. Syncopate is great against Rakdos Returns, Sphinx's Revelation, and other X spells. Bant will often wait until 7 mana to cast Thragtusk, which is invaluable time. Once he lands a few turns late, Feeling of Dread is generally enough to get your PW close to ultimate.
Detention Sphere is good, but there were numerous times I wished I had an o-ring (to get rid of a Detention Sphere on a Jace or Tamiyo). I'm going to run 2 Detention Sphere and 1 Oblivion Ring tonight to see if that helps. I may go down to 1 D-Sphere and 1 O-Ring, with extras in the side, but I think 2 D-Sphere is necessary for tokens. We'll see.
26 Lands was a good number, in my opinion. I have no desire to go to 27. I sided out my Evolving Wilds against RDW.
Edit: Here is my list for tonight's standard tournament . I'll post more detailed round summaries after tonight.
Main:
-1 Detention Sphere
+1 Oblivion Ring
-1 Azorius Charm
+1 Feeling of Dread
Side:
-2 Martial Law
-1 Psychic Spiral
-1 Cyclonic Rift
-1 Divine Deflection
+1 Syncopate
+1 Dissipate
+1 Feeling of Dread
+2 Sever the Bloodline
How sad that blue won't be dominating every competitive event during RtR like they have been for months. Blue mages are so entitled to having the best stuff.
You're going to have to do something other than counter everything and dig for answers. Adapt. Figure out another strategy.
Ponder + Snapcaster + Delver + Mana Leak + Vapor Snag + Geist was annoying to play against, and Wizards knows this. To me, it looks like the meta game is shaping up for all sorts of great combinations. Boring, classic blue control probably won't be one of them, but there are plenty of ways to splash blue with other strategies. Take this as an opportunity to be creative. Blue control will be back one day, but not in RtR.
Cool card. He provides all sorts of utility in a 1-drop:
1. Exile spells your opponents want to flash back.
2. Exile creatures before they return to the battlefield for Undying.
3. Exile lands if there's no other option.
Oh, and he does't just exile, he pings and gains life! Very impressive card for a 1-drop. The fact that he comes down on turn 1 means he can be ready by the time your opponent wants to sac their Messenger to Blood Artist.
Still, not overpowered. It dies to everything, as it should.
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Any thoughts on Korozda Guildmage? She has a properly-sized body for her cost, pumps (as many times as you can afford), sneaks through damage, and gives you some insurance if your opponent decides to quadruple block one of your fatties.
Her abilities might just be too expensive.
Loleth Troll is only good if you're running Zombies. Same with Jarad. Same with Slitherhead.
In fact, I'm almost wondering why we're not looking at a GBr build that focuses on some of those cards. I understand that Huntmaster and Nighthawk are value town, but they can't even get close to the type of shenanigans you can pull with Jarad, Blood Artist, Geralf's Messenger, Loleth Troll, Gravecrawler, Slitherhead, etc. Maybe throw in Huntmaster, or Aristocrat, and a few Pillars with a GB Zombie shell, and you could have yourself an anti-zombie zombie deck.
GBr Zombies.
Also, in a build that is more focused on 2-4 drops could benefit from Arbor Elf. It's a body that helps you cast multiple creatures each turn while manafixing. Obviously better than Llanowar Elves has been the last few years, and that still sees consistent play in Tier 1 aggro decks right now.
against competitive edh decks? ya good luck with that.
This bolded phrase says exactly why I, and just about everyone I know, stopped playing EDH regularly.
It was supposed to be a CASUAL format, people. It was fun for like 2 weeks, also, until people like you built janky, unfun turn 2 win decks. Cool. Your deck won. Now, leave the table so my friends and I can play without you.
Congrats. Your combo deck made the format unfun for everyone else, and now people have stopped playing.
Quote from everydayishinesoclean »
my favorite thing to do in my karador deck is to just keep destroy lands of players that refuse to interact. they generally dont like it, but if your not interacting with anybody and trying to play big things, guess what? im not just gonna let you. play a better deck.
And this is why no one wants to play with you. EDH is fun when you sit around and play it with your buddies with a few beers. At our store you are "that" guy who the majority of players just ignores.
So, you can permanently kill your opponent's tokens. You can clear the board of your opponent's creatures, and make them remove her to get them back (but only to their hand). Or you can just reload your hand with your own creatures when she gets removed.
Very versatile, has an effect on the board immediately, etc.
Very good card, but not sure if it's constructed playable.
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The Discussion on this board only (READ ME BEFORE POSTING) specifies that lists of top/favored cards should be contained to one thread. I have searched the history of this forum and don't see any other general rare value threads, so I have created this one.
Every set has rares/mythics you hope to see and ones you hate to see. A good estimate of the set's excitement level is how many rares fall into each category. I would like to see a discussion of the rares currently spoiled, and get an idea of which ones people think are going to be worth the cost of a pack. Please provide some reasoning for anything that isn't obvious. I'll try to keep this first post updated as new rares are spoiled.
Right now things look positive - the average pack rare/mythic content would make me happy.
Great - A card worth more than a few packs. If not a competitive staple, at least a casual favorite that will hold some value.
OK - A card that will see some play and be worth the pack it came in.
Bad - This is one of those cards you give to the new kid who's deck is all the green cards he owns.
Good:
Cyclonic Rift - Versatile and potentially game ending.
Jace, Architect of Thought - Regardless of how good you think he is, PWs are always worth more than a handful of packs (Tibalt doesn't count).
Loxodon Smiter - Looks zoo-able in standard and modern.
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius - Similar to Olivia Voldaren, but gets a bonus because dragons are cooler than vampires.
Vraska the Unseen - Planeswalker = money card. This one actually seems good, but even if it sucked it would be worth more than a few packs.
Chromatic Lantern - Multicolor ramp + ultimate fixing makes this an EDH and Standard utility card for everyone, casual and otherwise.
Blood Crypt - Obviously good.
Hallowed Fountain - Obviously good.
Overgrown Tomb - Obviously good.
Steam Vents - Obviously good.
Temple Garden - Obviously good.
Ok:
Precinct Captain - Not bad for WW, but they aren't exactly hot stuff, especially without Honor of the Pure.
Desecration Demon - Decently aggressive, albeit limited by his punisher drawback.
Mizzium Mortars - Decent removal or game ending sweeper.
Corpsejack Menace - Interacts with a lot of cards past and present, I predict a sleeper hit.
Hypersonic Dragon - Fun in the right deck, but no inherent card advantage and 5 mana is a lot.
Isperia, Supreme Judge - Potential control finisher. Barely makes OK by costing less than 7 mana. Its a shame it only has 4 toughness (cough-Mortars-cough).
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Strong casual appeal, might be playable if a good GY deck takes off. Rancor may save him.
Jarad's Orders - Too slow and niche for eternal formats, but versatile enough for EDH and reanimator archetypes in standard.
Supreme Verdict - As long as people overextend, control players will need a way to keep them honest. But this isn't anything extraordinary.
Trostani, Selesnya's Voice - Will be popular in EDH and fringe-playable in standard for its lifegain.
Grove of the Guardian - I was going to mark this "Bad", but I kept thinking of the low opportunity cost in GW decks.
Deadbridge Goliath - While he's just a 5/5 on the ground, he's a strong threat with value after death or being countered.
Bad:
Martial Law - Too slow, you'd rather just have Oring at one less mana.
Bell-Chime Sphinx - Obviously poor.
Pack Rat - Great for rat decks...
Chaos Imps - Slightly better standard "dragon".
Guild Feud - Obligatory giant red random rare.
Death's Presence - Obligatory green creature trigger enchantment.
Worldspine Wurm - "Spending more than 6 mana should win you the game." - quote by Elesh Norn.
Archon of the Triumvirate - See Worldspine Wurm
Carnival Hellsteed - Without evasion you need more than haste and first strike to be playable.
Collective Blessing - Great card... for EDH. Too slow to be relevant in competitive formats.
This seems harsh, especially since there are quite a few people here that play Pauper on MODO, and these lands are a godsend to them. I have a feeling these lands may shake up that format big time.
Pauper is budget...
Edit: Beat me to it.
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"Constructed" shouldn't even be mentioned in this thread unless it's in the same sentence as "budget."
Come on, people. The value of these cards is obvious. They're printed in addition to shock lands. The gate mechanic is simply to give them some flavor, which is very effective, IMO.
Part of me thinks some of you built up a bunch of anger in anticipation of the shock lands not coming back. But they are back.
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Azorius Charm is nuts. People ranking it 6-10th are completely clueless and should have their DCI cards revoked. How many charms are 4-ofs? Now, how many of those are 4-ofs in multiple decks? Yeah.
I really hope the other remaining guilds have equally great mechanics. I still feel like Rakdos and Selesnya got a bit screwed in the mechanic department.
I played for first place in the final round against Bant Control, but in Game 3 we went to time.
3 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
4 Terminus
4 Lingering Souls
3 Detention Sphere
3 Forbidden Alchemy
3 Azorius Charm
2 Feeling of Dread
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Evolving Wilds
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Islands
2 Plains
1 Swamp
Side:
1 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Psychic Spiral
3 Supreme Verdict
2 Negate
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Divine Deflection
2 Martial Law
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Detention Sphere
My sideboard is a mess, and that's where most of my energy will go in testing over the next week (I'm playing in a Standard tournament tonight as well). I was going to test out Martial Law against Jund Midrange, but ended up not siding it in. Psychic Spiral + Jace Memory Adept is for control mirrors. I can mill myself with Jace and then use Psychic Spiral. It happened once last night, and was mildly effective, but probably too cute to work consistently. For it to be an effective rogue strategy, you need your opponent to be milling you, and you need to either draw Psychic Spiral and Jace, or you need to draw Jace and flashback your milled Psychic Spiral with Snapcaster. It's not consistent enough.
Thoughts on the main board:
Azorius Charm is starting to disappoint me. It's awful against Thragtusk and Restoration Angel, which I see a ton of. Its cycling is nice and its lifelink is good in a pinch, but I wouldn't run more than 3. I may go down to 2 in favor of 3 Feeling of Dread.
Terminus is an automatic 4-of, in my opinion. You don't have to tap out to play it for its miracle cost, and there were times when I was actually happy to see it in my opening hand in certain matchups (like the mirror). Putting your opponent's creatures somewhere where they can't recast them next turn (like Azorius Charm) is much more powerful.
Feeling of Dread is an MVP. I think I may actually like it more than Azorius Charm. I was able to ultimate Tamiyo 4 times last night, and Feeling of Dread was often the reason. Drawing a single Feeling of Dread gives your PWs 2 turns to do whatever they want, which also allows you time to draw answers (or more dig spells) to deal with their threats. I am currently running 2, but any number between 1-3 is what I would suggest. I might try to run 3 today and see how it goes. Drawing Feeling of Dread with a Tamiyo on the board almost felt like game over for my opponent.
Supreme Verdict's real value is in being uncountable, not being a board wipe (in my experience). Yes, a board wipe is nice many times, but with so many American and Bant lists running around, all you want is an uncountable kill spell many times, board wipe or not. Running more than 2 main deck is the wrong move, in my opinion, since you need the extra room for 4 Terminus. I'm running 1 main and 3 side, and I'm going to stick to that number, probably. It's working for me so far.
Nephalia Drownyards gave me a good control mirror matchup in game 1, which is very important since you often won't finish game 2. I went 2-0-1 against control lists last night. 2 Bant Control and 1 Esper PW Control. One of my draws was the first place Bant Control matchup. In Game 2 (which he won after I took game 1), he was able to resolve all 4 of his Thratusks, yet I still got him down to 1 life. Pretty crazy. I was still happy to draw that final round, as he's a skilled player.
Cyclonic Rift is a great swiss army knife. Early game it can give you a chance to counter a spell you might have not been able to counter when it was originally cast (like a PW, which isn't easy for us to deal with unless we want to go on the offensive with our spirit tokens early). Late game it can completely, utterly decimate your opponent. I think the most permanents I've returned to one players hand was an Underworld Connections, a Rakdos Keyrune, 2 Beast tokens, a Thragtusk, and a Garruk Primal Hunter. Needless to say, I won that game. The tempo swing was too great for my Jund opponent to recover from, and I was able to ultimate Tamiyo due to the additional time it gave me. This card is great as a 1 or 2-of, since it can be used at any stage of the game on almost any permanent, and since it's INSANE when overloaded.
Forbidden Alchemy is a card that I was never sad to see. With games going as long as they are, 3 mana at instant speed is chump change, and your chance of finding a threat is very high. Due to the length of games, I see no reason to run Think Twice over Forbidden Alchemy. In fact, even if your meta game is overflowing with fast decks, I would still recommend Alchemy over Think Twice since it can help you stabilize by digging for a board wipe or other answer. My favorite scenario is grabbing a PW, pitching Lingering Souls, and then being able to cast my PW and Lingering Souls for protection in the same turn. Very powerful. Running less than 3 is a bad idea, in my opinion. I would run 4 if I had the room, but 3 is a good number. 4 Jace + 3 Forbidden Alchemy is pretty insane. I never felt like I had an empty hand between those two cards. Think Twice is not nearly as good, in my opinion. The Esper PWs list I beat was running 2-3 Think Twice, and it didn't seem to do him much good. He was always casting it in response to my PWs to try to dig for a counter, but never could find one. A Forbidden Alchemy would have been better for him, in that scenario. He was only running 2-3 counterspells, I believe.
Counter spells. I like playing with very few of them main. Most players still play around them (especially if you pretend like you have them in your hand from the get-go, even when you don't), and you can side in Negates and more counters when you need them. I may opt for 1 or 2 more counters in the side. Probably 1 Dissipate and 1 Syncopate, since they're both useful in different situations. Syncopate is great against Rakdos Returns, Sphinx's Revelation, and other X spells. Bant will often wait until 7 mana to cast Thragtusk, which is invaluable time. Once he lands a few turns late, Feeling of Dread is generally enough to get your PW close to ultimate.
Detention Sphere is good, but there were numerous times I wished I had an o-ring (to get rid of a Detention Sphere on a Jace or Tamiyo). I'm going to run 2 Detention Sphere and 1 Oblivion Ring tonight to see if that helps. I may go down to 1 D-Sphere and 1 O-Ring, with extras in the side, but I think 2 D-Sphere is necessary for tokens. We'll see.
26 Lands was a good number, in my opinion. I have no desire to go to 27. I sided out my Evolving Wilds against RDW.
Edit: Here is my list for tonight's standard tournament . I'll post more detailed round summaries after tonight.
Main:
-1 Detention Sphere
+1 Oblivion Ring
-1 Azorius Charm
+1 Feeling of Dread
Side:
-2 Martial Law
-1 Psychic Spiral
-1 Cyclonic Rift
-1 Divine Deflection
+1 Syncopate
+1 Dissipate
+1 Feeling of Dread
+2 Sever the Bloodline
3 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
4 Terminus
4 Lingering Souls
2 Detention Sphere
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Forbidden Alchemy
2 Azorius Charm
3 Feeling of Dread
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Evolving Wilds
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Islands
2 Plains
1 Swamp
Side:
1 Jace, Memory Adept
3 Supreme Verdict
2 Negate
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Detention Sphere
1 Syncopate
1 Dissipate
1 Feeling of Dread
2 Sever the Bloodline
It's Ravnica's Broodmate Dragon.
This will see play, and it will win a lot of games.
I can't wait to open some 5/5 Wurm tokens!
How sad that blue won't be dominating every competitive event during RtR like they have been for months. Blue mages are so entitled to having the best stuff.
You're going to have to do something other than counter everything and dig for answers. Adapt. Figure out another strategy.
Ponder + Snapcaster + Delver + Mana Leak + Vapor Snag + Geist was annoying to play against, and Wizards knows this. To me, it looks like the meta game is shaping up for all sorts of great combinations. Boring, classic blue control probably won't be one of them, but there are plenty of ways to splash blue with other strategies. Take this as an opportunity to be creative. Blue control will be back one day, but not in RtR.
1. Exile spells your opponents want to flash back.
2. Exile creatures before they return to the battlefield for Undying.
3. Exile lands if there's no other option.
Oh, and he does't just exile, he pings and gains life! Very impressive card for a 1-drop. The fact that he comes down on turn 1 means he can be ready by the time your opponent wants to sac their Messenger to Blood Artist.
Still, not overpowered. It dies to everything, as it should.
Her abilities might just be too expensive.
Loleth Troll is only good if you're running Zombies. Same with Jarad. Same with Slitherhead.
In fact, I'm almost wondering why we're not looking at a GBr build that focuses on some of those cards. I understand that Huntmaster and Nighthawk are value town, but they can't even get close to the type of shenanigans you can pull with Jarad, Blood Artist, Geralf's Messenger, Loleth Troll, Gravecrawler, Slitherhead, etc. Maybe throw in Huntmaster, or Aristocrat, and a few Pillars with a GB Zombie shell, and you could have yourself an anti-zombie zombie deck.
GBr Zombies.
Also, in a build that is more focused on 2-4 drops could benefit from Arbor Elf. It's a body that helps you cast multiple creatures each turn while manafixing. Obviously better than Llanowar Elves has been the last few years, and that still sees consistent play in Tier 1 aggro decks right now.
This bolded phrase says exactly why I, and just about everyone I know, stopped playing EDH regularly.
It was supposed to be a CASUAL format, people. It was fun for like 2 weeks, also, until people like you built janky, unfun turn 2 win decks. Cool. Your deck won. Now, leave the table so my friends and I can play without you.
Congrats. Your combo deck made the format unfun for everyone else, and now people have stopped playing.
And this is why no one wants to play with you. EDH is fun when you sit around and play it with your buddies with a few beers. At our store you are "that" guy who the majority of players just ignores.
Yep.
Vraska is an auto-include, IMO.
Except the Angel has to leave the battlefield for that ability to trigger.
Podding from a 7 to an 8 drop is the definition of win more. Just use Elesh and be done with it.
Very versatile, has an effect on the board immediately, etc.
Very good card, but not sure if it's constructed playable.
I'm just quoting this because it has so many stupid things in it and I want us all to be able to laugh at it later.
Love the flavor text:
Pauper is budget...
Edit: Beat me to it.
Come on, people. The value of these cards is obvious. They're printed in addition to shock lands. The gate mechanic is simply to give them some flavor, which is very effective, IMO.
Part of me thinks some of you built up a bunch of anger in anticipation of the shock lands not coming back. But they are back.