This is correct. If any permanent changes zones for any reason, the game forgets any knowledge of it being there before.
With the exception of remembering it's last known state in that zone (usually only relevant in situations such as remembering the power and toughness of a creature as it leaves play.) But yeah, the game has a certain amount of amnesia in regards to recognizing cards that have been away.
The answer, sadly, is "not very well". Your friend is correct in thinking that the returning Gideon is considered a whole new beast, and his previous ability will not be able to recognize him. The game loses track of cards as they change zones (too much tequila I think..)
two key differences i wanted to ask about: how were the 4 seas for you in the new format? and no sea gate oracles? i feel like our 4 tec edges should give us enough mana control so i opted to use those slots for more action like elspeth etc (and the orcales can actually jump and bash jaces and gideons
The Spreading Seas have been pretty binary. Which is to say, it either outright wins me games (picked up a game against Grixis control by locking him out of black for the first half) or cycles. I've thought about dropping it to the side for this reason, bringing it in to help answer man lands and the like.
I like oracle, and he may go in some of the SS spots.
So, I feel like it was running pretty well (although I did get pretty lucky in a few situations.) I really kind of want to put a third Sun Titan in, as he can turn games around, especially if he gets an attack step.
Also, my sideboard is a little random. I didn't have time to put enough thought into it (i.e. I put spell pierces in because I didn't expect RDW to make too much of a showing and I had them on hand to fill the Flashfreeze spots.)
And it did end up mattering, he had me at one life when I killed him. Like I already said before I did the damn math.
If I had been Mazing a token every turn, he would have gotten in for the extra 2 damage from that one measly zombie to kill me.
I don't know why are you trying so hard to disprove me.
peace
Your wording in all previous posts indicated that your opponent had attacked multiple times with his little friends (saying "his 2/2's couldn't get there without the extra 6 damage every turn" and so on,) in which case mazing the token would have been the right play. If "every turn" actually meant "the one turn in which he attacked and I had maze active," then I apologize for not divining that meaning.
I wasn't trying to "disprove you," nor "disprove" that Maze is a card worth running. Merely trying to point out that stories illustrating a card's worth by relating a situation in which the use of said card both lucky and, by the way the story was originally told, used incorrectly, is just as likely to make people want to stay away from it entirely.
While I did indeed get lucky, I also counted out all the damage ahead of time, so I knew that as long as he didn't get anything to help that I would win. Even if it doesn't look likely that you will win, even if the statistics are against you, you shouldn't just give up or play like you won't be able to race. In the end you HAVE to play aggressively sometimes or you will just end up losing where you could have won. Sure I could have kept Baneslayer on blocking detail and Mazed a token every turn. But I didn't, and it won me the game.
In fact, he ended the game with 2 lands in hand and two Mana Leaks that did nothing because I already had Baneslayer on deck and you can't counter the Maze (obviously). The biggest reason I posted that example, instead of any other examples, is because I found it hilarious that I actually raced his Grave Titan with my Baneslayer. I never stated that it was a GOOD example, only that it was an example that was giving me more respect for the card.
The simple fact is, as stated a hundred times now, without Maze I would have lost. There is no denying that FACT of reality. In all truth, he got lucky, not I, because I run about 5 more removal spells in my decklist which would have ended the game at any time. He did have counterspells in hand, but I had around 8 mana on board from the point that he drew the first mana leak (and played another land every turn because I was mana-flooded), so I more than likely could have gotten it through either way.
peace
Leaving the Angel on the defensive wouldn't have been a particular requirement. My point was that every time you mazed the Titan, you handed him two extra tokens (which, conveniently, would have been left had you drawn one of those 5 more removal spells.) Mazing a token would have had you take extra damage up front, but would have not handed him 4 power more of critters to swing at you with.
Mathematically speaking, permanently removing a 2/2 and not adding 2 more 2/2's is going to come out in your favor. Over the course of 3 turns, swinging with angel and Mazing a token causes you to take a net of 17 damage. Over the same 3 turns, mazing the Titan instead causes you to take a net of 21 damage. In both sequences, he takes identical amounts of damage. This pattern only continues exponentially as the game goes on.
So, I guess my question is this: Were you killing him in 2 attack steps? If so, the maze only did it's thing once and it hardly mattered what it did it on. If not, then you were mazing the wrong target.
I never said it was a situation that would happen very often. The simple fact of the matter is, however, that without the Maze I surely would have lost.
I also said that was only one reason of about 20 that I had garnered in one day of playtesting, there are plenty more where that came from.
I would have probably gone with one of the other twenty, then, seeing as this use of Maze mostly makes you look like you have no idea what you're doing. You got lucky in this instance, as your opponent never found removal for your angel or your land, or another significant threat (any of which would have caused the extra 4 power of zombies you were serving him every turn to roll you) but throwing it out there as though it should prove something is less than effective.
On the actual subject, though:
My testing has indicated that one Maze does little to stress the mana base of a standard U/W build and has a number of situations in which it serves useful utility functions. It is definitely a viable candidate as a one or possibly two-of (I go with one, because I'm running heavy on the Tec Edges.)
In many instances it sits there and produces colorless mana. Occasionally it does good things. Rarely does it get in the way. Make of it what you wish.
For instance, yesterday while I was playtesting, my buddy lost to me in a race between his Grave Titan and my Baneslayer. You want to know the only reason I won the race? Mystifying Maze every turn on his Grave Titan. I won by 1 or 2 points of damage because his 2/2's couldn't get there without the extra 6 damage every turn from his Grave Titan. Final turn I was able to bash with Baneslayer and one Celestial Colonnade for 9 damage to win the game.
..I'm sorry, you're advocating this card by referencing a situation in which you hand your opponent 4 2/2 Zombies a turn? Don't get me wrong, I actually like Maze as a one-of, but using it on any of the Titans, but especially Grave, is a horrifically terrible idea...
If you managed to race a board position growing by 8 power of critters a turn with your Baneslayer, then more power to you, but I'd wager that's not generally going to be the outcome of this situation. Statistically speaking, you're much more likely to end up with "Doom Blade on Angel, thanks for the extra 4 dudes" a couple turns into this scenario.
This deck looks very good. You have quality cards that are good on their own, or in combo. You also have a good curve.
The only critique I have is Emrakul. If you want a graveyard shuffle, don't play an uncastable creature. Play Elixir of Immortality. I know you have Fauna Shaman, but that would be my advice nevertheless.
Or, at least, go with Kozilek or something, as it's potentially possible to get to 10 in a long game, while 15 is pretty unlikely.
This looks a lot like an earlier version of the deck I was working with. Couple of questions, though:
Why Oust over Path/Condemn? The big thing about this slot for me is it's ability to get rid of things at instant speed - Vengevines, Manlands, and the sort. Without this, it seems like it would be pretty difficult to compete against critters. WoO only goes so far.
Also, are you finding it difficult to end games? In an earlier version of my list, I was running Titan as my only real finisher as well, and I often felt like I had complete control of the game but couldn't manage to actually kill my opponent (Thus the SoJI in my list.)
Sun Titan puts your opponent on Jace lock for the rest of the game. That's reason enough for me to consider him in UW.
This absolutely won me the whole match vs. Superfriends, and one game vs. Grixis. Between the recurring Jace buying me card advantage and locking down opposing Jaces, my Mana Leaks and Negates kept the board pleasantly clear of opposing Supermen.
Beat Superfriends, Grixis Control, and 2x RDW. Can go into more detail when I have a bit more time, as well as discuss some changes I'm thinking about.
I'm working on something fairly similar to this. Wall of Denial seems less than optimal, as does the Journeys - While 8 O-ring effects is nice, having no sweepers and no instant-speed removal is going to be problematic. Lack of sweepers means your defenses can be overwhelmed, and lack of instant-speed removal means no meaningful defense against Man Lands and the like.
I would look at something along the lines of -4 Journey, -3 Wall of Denial for +3 Day of Judgment, +3 Path/Condemn, and +1 Martial Coup
Just last monday, Bit blast on the Linvala that was locking down my Siege Gang Commander, cascades into Bloodbraid Elf, cascades into Maelstrom Pulse to take out Elspeth, leaving him with a board position of... 1 token vs. my SGC + 3 friends + BBE...
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With the exception of remembering it's last known state in that zone (usually only relevant in situations such as remembering the power and toughness of a creature as it leaves play.) But yeah, the game has a certain amount of amnesia in regards to recognizing cards that have been away.
The Spreading Seas have been pretty binary. Which is to say, it either outright wins me games (picked up a game against Grixis control by locking him out of black for the first half) or cycles. I've thought about dropping it to the side for this reason, bringing it in to help answer man lands and the like.
I like oracle, and he may go in some of the SS spots.
Sun Titan took 1st, 4th, and 5th at //sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1">=std&start_date=2010-07-25&end_date=2010-07-25&country=FR"]French Nationals
We have ourselves a live one.
2 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
4 Wall of Omens
4 Spreading Seas
2 Jace's Ingenuity
4 Mana Leak
2 Cancel
3 Day of Judgment
2 Condemn
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Martial Coup
3 Jace Beleren
2 Gideon Jura
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Celestial Colonnade
3 Tectonic Edge
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
6 Island
5 Plains
4 Kor Firewalker
4 Negate
4 Celestial Purge
1 Condemn
2 Spell Pierce
So, I feel like it was running pretty well (although I did get pretty lucky in a few situations.) I really kind of want to put a third Sun Titan in, as he can turn games around, especially if he gets an attack step.
Also, my sideboard is a little random. I didn't have time to put enough thought into it (i.e. I put spell pierces in because I didn't expect RDW to make too much of a showing and I had them on hand to fill the Flashfreeze spots.)
Any thoughts on these?
Your wording in all previous posts indicated that your opponent had attacked multiple times with his little friends (saying "his 2/2's couldn't get there without the extra 6 damage every turn" and so on,) in which case mazing the token would have been the right play. If "every turn" actually meant "the one turn in which he attacked and I had maze active," then I apologize for not divining that meaning.
I wasn't trying to "disprove you," nor "disprove" that Maze is a card worth running. Merely trying to point out that stories illustrating a card's worth by relating a situation in which the use of said card both lucky and, by the way the story was originally told, used incorrectly, is just as likely to make people want to stay away from it entirely.
Leaving the Angel on the defensive wouldn't have been a particular requirement. My point was that every time you mazed the Titan, you handed him two extra tokens (which, conveniently, would have been left had you drawn one of those 5 more removal spells.) Mazing a token would have had you take extra damage up front, but would have not handed him 4 power more of critters to swing at you with.
Mathematically speaking, permanently removing a 2/2 and not adding 2 more 2/2's is going to come out in your favor. Over the course of 3 turns, swinging with angel and Mazing a token causes you to take a net of 17 damage. Over the same 3 turns, mazing the Titan instead causes you to take a net of 21 damage. In both sequences, he takes identical amounts of damage. This pattern only continues exponentially as the game goes on.
So, I guess my question is this: Were you killing him in 2 attack steps? If so, the maze only did it's thing once and it hardly mattered what it did it on. If not, then you were mazing the wrong target.
Edit: Sentence structure are hard.
I would have probably gone with one of the other twenty, then, seeing as this use of Maze mostly makes you look like you have no idea what you're doing. You got lucky in this instance, as your opponent never found removal for your angel or your land, or another significant threat (any of which would have caused the extra 4 power of zombies you were serving him every turn to roll you) but throwing it out there as though it should prove something is less than effective.
On the actual subject, though:
My testing has indicated that one Maze does little to stress the mana base of a standard U/W build and has a number of situations in which it serves useful utility functions. It is definitely a viable candidate as a one or possibly two-of (I go with one, because I'm running heavy on the Tec Edges.)
In many instances it sits there and produces colorless mana. Occasionally it does good things. Rarely does it get in the way. Make of it what you wish.
..I'm sorry, you're advocating this card by referencing a situation in which you hand your opponent 4 2/2 Zombies a turn? Don't get me wrong, I actually like Maze as a one-of, but using it on any of the Titans, but especially Grave, is a horrifically terrible idea...
If you managed to race a board position growing by 8 power of critters a turn with your Baneslayer, then more power to you, but I'd wager that's not generally going to be the outcome of this situation. Statistically speaking, you're much more likely to end up with "Doom Blade on Angel, thanks for the extra 4 dudes" a couple turns into this scenario.
Or, at least, go with Kozilek or something, as it's potentially possible to get to 10 in a long game, while 15 is pretty unlikely.
This looks a lot like an earlier version of the deck I was working with. Couple of questions, though:
Why Oust over Path/Condemn? The big thing about this slot for me is it's ability to get rid of things at instant speed - Vengevines, Manlands, and the sort. Without this, it seems like it would be pretty difficult to compete against critters. WoO only goes so far.
Also, are you finding it difficult to end games? In an earlier version of my list, I was running Titan as my only real finisher as well, and I often felt like I had complete control of the game but couldn't manage to actually kill my opponent (Thus the SoJI in my list.)
Edit:
This absolutely won me the whole match vs. Superfriends, and one game vs. Grixis. Between the recurring Jace buying me card advantage and locking down opposing Jaces, my Mana Leaks and Negates kept the board pleasantly clear of opposing Supermen.
2 Spinx of Jwar Isle
4 Wall of Omens
4 Mana Leak
1 Cancel
3 Condemn
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Spreading Seas
3 Everflowing Chalice
2 Jace's Ingenuity
1 Martial Coup
3 Day of Judgment
2 Gideon Jura
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Mire Flats
1 Mystifying Maze
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Plains
6 Island
2 Negate
3 Flashfreeze
3 Celestial Purge
4 Kor Firewalker
2 Mind Control
1 Day of Judgment
Beat Superfriends, Grixis Control, and 2x RDW. Can go into more detail when I have a bit more time, as well as discuss some changes I'm thinking about.
I would look at something along the lines of -4 Journey, -3 Wall of Denial for +3 Day of Judgment, +3 Path/Condemn, and +1 Martial Coup
Also, Gideon is a house if you have him.