Nicol Bolas is a lame storyline character, okay, so your going to use the alara nexus to restore your power, well mission accomplished, so What do you plan to do with that power? Get more power! ... and what about that power?? >_> ... GET MORE POWER! so anyway yea he's not very good in a draft anyway
you're*
And judging by your knowledge you know NOTHING of Nicol Bolas.
@Natural Selection... Probably Batterskull (as they're both anti-aggro cards)... It's okay, but not great
Also: Why aren't you running Jaces if your meta is control heavy? And Leak in the MB? Lacking Vault &/or Cavern of Souls? Why aren't you running either of those?
I'm just looking for some insight on your choices.
you should play delver, at least to understand how it works and what makes it effective (or at least watch people's videos with it). it's not the easiest deck to play well (and learning how to play it effectively just half the battle)... finding out what makes it tick is the other half.
Really think I should remove Batterskull?
I really like it, but sometimes it's just there as a LOL Look at me type thing.
I can see what you mean.
Um, I don't run Caverns because I don't usually get countered all too hard. And well I know I could easily use them, but I also don't have them.
Not many list run them, I know some do. I just don't see me using them too much, and in testing, I haven't really gone "Oh man wish I had Carvern" or "Damn they countered my..."
I'd give Jace another chance. He's hands down the best win-con in the mirror (alongside spellbomb). Games usually go looonnnng in the mirror, and after a couple of flashed back alchemies, all it takes is one or two 0s to get there. If you're behind, don't be afraid to mill yourself for 10 for that rites.
I really don't like Jace lol, I know it's just me, I just don't like him.
@Natural Selection... Probably Batterskull (as they're both anti-aggro cards)... It's okay, but not great
Also: Why aren't you running Jaces if your meta is control heavy? And Leak in the MB? Lacking Vault &/or Cavern of Souls? Why aren't you running either of those?
I'm just looking for some insight on your choices.
you should play delver, at least to understand how it works and what makes it effective (or at least watch people's videos with it). it's not the easiest deck to play well (and learning how to play it effectively just half the battle)... finding out what makes it tick is the other half.
I understand that your choice works in your meta, you have positive results with it. Your meta isn't my meta, it's not most metas, it's not the 50% delver you'll see when you play in larger tournaments. Nor does it mean it's optimal in PTQ situations. When you're going to a PTQ, it'd be a mistake to assume anything less than 40% delver. A control dominated meta doesn't exist in the wild as a whole, but instead lives in your neck of the woods. What works for you, and your meta I feel doesn't work as well if you go to a PTQ.
Re: Griselbrand. Yes. He uses it. No, I don't agree with his rationale behind it (that and he says Jace is the nuts in the mirror. I don't disagree)... I think it's an iffy card in most circumstances. Also brings up the question: What's your opinion on Jace in the mirror? How many do you run? Just because he plays it doens't mean I can't agree with his other choices. You seem to have an issue understanding that (ala tony, two pages back-ish).
Everyone plays different, I know. But, that doesn't mean there aren't suboptimal plays, suboptimal tuning choices, suboptimal sideboarding strategies... There's a difference between 'just alright' and 'good'. And that's a really important difference to make when tuning a deck. I asked you exactly 'why wouldn't you use two'. And you said 'i don't use 2'.
And you didn't provide a response, just 'i use one, not two'. And why not? I don't mind if you have differences in opinion, just that you're able to articulate WHY you think your opinions are correct. You said you wouldn't use it. Defend your point. I outlined some reasons why it's good. You just said 'i wouldn't use it'. It's like your points to Griselbrand. I just feel that the rationale that you give is pure Timmy...
Like I said buddy boy, it was my meta.
The only deck where 2 Elesh would be a good choice for me would be against the Humans.
Now, is 2 Elesh better in the Delver match up?
If that's the case I'll go buy 1 more.
I go to GP Trials and such a lot, but at that time I was playing Naya Pod.
And Liliana of the Veil has done good for me in person, on MWS, and MTGO.
It's not about being able to cast 2, but being able to find one per game. No, you won't always need a -2/-2 roflwipe, but if you're running caverns (which you should be), you should be able to resolve it t7, even against delver. And 90% of the time, you should be able to cast Elesh if you have it on t7. Having 2 increases your chance of finding Elesh. I also pointed out 3 top lists that run 2. Todd Anderson also ran 2 in his video above (which he worked on the list with gerryt). He also ran Griselbrand along with 2 Jaces (which I seem to think is overkill in the control matchup, especially with a bevy of negates), and he, like myself, said it's good only in the control matchup, where Elesh Norn isn't that great. Siding it in vs BW tokens seems less than optimal.
It's not about the -/- ability though. It's about the value. I think that's what you're missing most about the argument for elesh norn. You're underestimating it's value of A) providing a strong body that beats titans, B) Wiping the board, C) augmenting your lingering souls to beat in. I think you must not be aggressive enough with your souls to understand how powerful elesh norn is in that context of closing out games. You probably play too reactively with them, instead of recognizing that you can outclock your opponent with them.
You should be running 3-4 images at the very least. It's the most effective way to stop the following: Strangleroot Geist, Geist of St. Traft, Opponent Sun Titans (when you don't have one), and Primeval Titans in the list. And that pretty much covers 80% of the meta (assuming that Zombies occupy 15%).
It takes a bit of practice. It's not an easy matchup, but Souls is really good, and post-board I feel you're not losing much. It's a battle of survival until you can get the late game going.
I don't think Sphinx/Griselbrand is better than Jace in the control matchup. Especially if you get your spellbomb active first. I'd even go up to a third spellbomb for the mirror because it's so important to breaking your opponent's ability to get value from their GY.
To each their own buddy boy.
My meta doesn't require it.
The pro player you use, used Griselbrand, and you say no.
He also used 2 Elesh.
I never said no, I just said I wouldn't use.
Sit down, calm down, and learn everyone plays differently.
My deck is different, I run the Liliana Package, so Griselbrand is an alright choice for me.
I have a control meta. So it's not bad.
Your post is more aimed on you forcing your ideas on me telling me what I should play and how to rather than you realizing I clearly stated from the get-go I wouldn't do it.
That's it. Plain and simple.
I'm glad we butt heads and give our 2 cents. I actually like you more for it.
Sometimes Elesh won't win the game. But Elesh shuts down opposing game plans really nicely. It's a 4/5-to-1. You're binning 1+ threats, you get in for 3-6, and force them to have an answer in hand, if they're snapcastering a vapor snag (and you have a cavern of souls), you still win the game out of inevitability (unless they want to dismember, snapcaster dismember). It's even better vs R/G strategies (clearly). If you're saying that a build that supports sun titan (with Caverns) can't support elesh norn is kinda ridiculous. Griselbrand is 4BBBB, Elesh Norn is 1 mana more than sun titan. There's multiple threats and answers, correct, but, Elesh Norn does both effectively, even on it's own it's a 4/7 vigilance creature that beats effectively and defends itself.
How often do you need a -4/-4 effect. Not very often. 2 toughness is about all you need to turn around board control, especially with spirits in play. And if you really do. You just need to image your own instead of playing 2. Playing 2 is a redundancy thing & increasing the chances you find it. You don't need 2 to make it happen, which was what you're implying. You could do that by running 1 and an image. But that's not why you want to run 2. You want to run 2 because it's a good card.
Sorin Markov used to be good, but the problem is, Restoration Angel (and Strangelroot Geist, and it's not really effective vs WRR). Restoration angel pretty much shuts down most planeswalkers. You play one (tamiyo included), they restoration angel, flicker the targeted creature, get in for 5+. It is also really bad vs equipment & moorland haunt (whereas Curse is a much better card in that regard).
I wouldn't use 2 is all.
Curse started to become more lack luster for me, so I stopped using it.
Sorin is good in non W matchups. I mean I know he's not like OMG good, but he is sorta funny.
2 Elesh Norn are pretty good. Just because you've neverseen2 doesn't mean that it's not totally viable. It's got some good rationale behind it... ala Frites.
Resolving Elesh Norn through Cavern is a really powerful manoeuvre against so many decks. Jamming 2 in there isn't the worst idea, because it's so synergistic with the rest of the deck & not impossible to cast effectively.
Calm down buddy, I never said it was bad, I just don't see it being used too much in Solar Flare.
It was like the argument in Girselbrand.
Just you're supporting the 2 of...
I know Frites utilizes them very well, but they're designed to.
We usually have multiple answers and threats, and sometimes Elesh won't win the game.
Now there is a possibility, of playing 2... then doing the -2/-2 and making it -4/-4 Legend Rule triggers big wipe.
Just seem harder to pull off.
I recently added Sorin Markov for the heck of it, he hasn't done bad for me honestly.
Sorin is in there for my -1 Curse of Death's Hold. Which will probably become either a 3rd Day of Judgment or a Phantasmal image
Well, I tried Batu's Naya Aggro and went 1-2. I'm done with this archtype. I have no idea how he goes 4-0 so often with it. Maybe he just never runs into Delver. This deck doesn't work. I'll have to decide whether I want to play Delver or quit. Thanks for your help, everyone.
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I have $80, so I can't get too much that I am sure of. But what can I get?
If it's Modern I'd like to play something competitive. Same for Legacy.
By that I mean play both like split cards.
Actually I want to know how Cascade would interact.
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1109372
you're*
And judging by your knowledge you know NOTHING of Nicol Bolas.
Refrain from ever talking about him ever again.
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Phantasmal Image
3 Sun Titan
Planeswalkers: 1
1 Gideon Jura
Spells: 18
3 Day of Judgment
1 Doom Blade
4 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Go for the Throat
4 Lingering Souls
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Ponder
1 Unburial Rites
Artifacts: 2
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Dead Weight
Lands: 26
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Darkslick Shores
2 Drowned Catacomb
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Glacial Fortress
2 Island
4 Isolated Chapel
2 Plains
4 Seachrome Coast
2 Swamp
2 Celestial Purge
1 Consecrated Sphinx
2 Dissipate
1 Flashfreeze
1 Griselbrand
2 Negate
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Revoke Existence
1 Sever the Bloodline
2 Timely Reinforcements
I added 1 Go for the Throat to replace Liliana.
I'm also thinking of running 1 Vault of the Archangel
Really think I should remove Batterskull?
I really like it, but sometimes it's just there as a LOL Look at me type thing.
I can see what you mean.
Um, I don't run Caverns because I don't usually get countered all too hard. And well I know I could easily use them, but I also don't have them.
Not many list run them, I know some do. I just don't see me using them too much, and in testing, I haven't really gone "Oh man wish I had Carvern" or "Damn they countered my..."
I really don't like Jace lol, I know it's just me, I just don't like him.
3 Darkslick Shores
3 Drowned Catacomb
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Glacial Fortress
2 Island
4 Isolated Chapel
2 Plains
3 Seachrome Coast
2 Swamp
Creatures: 6
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Phantasmal Image
3 Sun Titan
2 Day of Judgment
1 Dead Weight
1 Doom Blade
4 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Go for the Throat
4 Lingering Souls
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Ponder
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Unburial Rites
Planeswalkers: 3
1 Gideon Jura
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Celestial Purge
1 Consecrated Sphinx
2 Dissipate
1 Flashfreeze
1 Griselbrand
2 Negate
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Revoke Existence
1 Sever the Bloodline
2 Timely Reinforcements
I just really don't like Jace
I'm actually going to buy the second Elesh too soon from my work.
So I'll play that more, I see your points.
Now really I'm here thinking what to cut and what to move.
3 Darkslick Shores
3 Drowned Catacomb
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Glacial Fortress
2 Island
4 Isolated Chapel
2 Plains
3 Seachrome Coast
2 Swamp
Creatures: 6
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Phantasmal Image
3 Sun Titan
1 Batterskull
2 Day of Judgment
1 Dead Weight
1 Doom Blade
4 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Go for the Throat
4 Lingering Souls
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Ponder
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Unburial Rites
Planeswalkers: 3
1 Gideon Jura
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Celestial Purge
1 Consecrated Sphinx
2 Dissipate
1 Flashfreeze
1 Griselbrand
2 Negate
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Revoke Existence
1 Sever the Bloodline
2 Timely Reinforcements
Where do we put +1 Elesh for -1 ???
Like I said buddy boy, it was my meta.
The only deck where 2 Elesh would be a good choice for me would be against the Humans.
Now, is 2 Elesh better in the Delver match up?
If that's the case I'll go buy 1 more.
I go to GP Trials and such a lot, but at that time I was playing Naya Pod.
And Liliana of the Veil has done good for me in person, on MWS, and MTGO.
Maybe I'm just lucky with my matches?
Warned for trolling.~parinoid
To each their own buddy boy.
My meta doesn't require it.
The pro player you use, used Griselbrand, and you say no.
He also used 2 Elesh.
I never said no, I just said I wouldn't use.
Sit down, calm down, and learn everyone plays differently.
My deck is different, I run the Liliana Package, so Griselbrand is an alright choice for me.
I have a control meta. So it's not bad.
Your post is more aimed on you forcing your ideas on me telling me what I should play and how to rather than you realizing I clearly stated from the get-go I wouldn't do it.
That's it. Plain and simple.
I'm glad we butt heads and give our 2 cents. I actually like you more for it.
But understand, we're not alike.
Depends on your list.
You don't always need the -2-2 rofl wipe.
And one Elesh is usually good enough, we have image, we can rite it back.
If we really want the -/- ability might as well run some BSZ.
I would rather use another DoJ, or and Image.
My list only has 2 images, I fell I need that as 3 since most list run it.
And the -1 Terminus and -1 Curse to my list adds room for +1 Image and +1 (Random viable spell)
Also, the more I look at all the top decks of Esper and variants I only see 1 Elesh.
So it's more supporting in favor to more card advantage.
I wouldn't use 2 is all.
Curse started to become more lack luster for me, so I stopped using it.
Sorin is good in non W matchups. I mean I know he's not like OMG good, but he is sorta funny.
I like his sustain.
Winning isn't everything, it's the ONLY thing. Mentality.
Now, if you just want to power game or be a fair weather player, go ahead and play Delver.
Calm down buddy, I never said it was bad, I just don't see it being used too much in Solar Flare.
It was like the argument in Girselbrand.
Just you're supporting the 2 of...
I know Frites utilizes them very well, but they're designed to.
We usually have multiple answers and threats, and sometimes Elesh won't win the game.
Now there is a possibility, of playing 2... then doing the -2/-2 and making it -4/-4 Legend Rule triggers big wipe.
Just seem harder to pull off.
I recently added Sorin Markov for the heck of it, he hasn't done bad for me honestly.
Sorin is in there for my -1 Curse of Death's Hold. Which will probably become either a 3rd Day of Judgment or a Phantasmal image
Both of those videos are of 2-Pod or Kibler Pod matches.
I did them a while back.
Piloting issue.