First game testing a Rosheen Meanderer list on Cockatrice against Rhys the Redeemed and Progenitus. It's around turn 6 or 7. I've ramped a bit and have my general ready to start slinging whatever X spells I draw, Progenitus has played Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker to steal Rhys' Primeval Titan, and Rhys has a modest amount of tokens. On his turn, Rhys Austere Commands away big creatures and enchantments. With little else to do, I hit Progenitus over the next couple turns with Rosheen, bringing him up to 8 general damage. On his turn, he taps out for Conflux, grabbing Doubling Season, Leyline of Sanctity and some broken Planeswalkers.
Things are looking pretty crappy for me until I draw Kessig Wolf-Run, which I promptly play and use to get the remaining 13 points of general damage on Progenitus. I pass turn to Rhys, and he plays Nomad's Assembly for something like 7 Soldiers. Again, things aren't looking good.
RATCHET BOMB.
I know we are all use to this card being a bit sub par, and I could maybe maybe maybe see replacing it IF we had a Swords to Plowshares effect. Guess what? We don't. Oblivion ring is a great card, yes- but it is a very bad card for the job of early game defense. If you are cutting the bombs I am forced to believe you have done little to no testing with the deck. Bomb is good against everything (not really good vs WRR but still you can put it to 4 so you can pop it to get around Thrun regen and then slap down a DOJ in game 1) ramping up to 5 or 7 vs the mirror (which you will have to start getting used to playing as this IS the most viable control deck in T2) and just sitting there.
Against decks where you need to pop it off fast, you usually pop it for zero, one, or two AND gain value. Also you can cast bomb whenever you have the spare mana, leaving your counter wall up.
Hey everybody, stop putting creatures in the deck. SB them if you have to so you can bring them in after they board out Vapor Snags, Doomblades, DOJS (you shouldn't, cept for Elesh, because no other creature finisher has enough specific impact (drawing SB cards should be better than drawing MB cards at almost any point in the game or they do not carry enough weight- unless of course its a card like the Image which serves a specific and entirely necessary purpose). Sphinx has to live to see their draw step if there is any point to him and game 1 they will have a hand chock full of removal if they have any at all. Yes Gideon eats Doomblade, but YOU get to choose when to animate him, so don't run him into it. The Planeswalker route gives them a hand full of dead cards, if you run a few creatures, you have now given them more cards than they could ever need to do ONE specific task. That is bad for you. You have given the opponent inevitability.
And finally... 4 Snapcaster Mage??? wth? Cutting Dissipates for Snapcasters? even more WTH? With 2 Dissipate, youre likely to never even draw 1. There is no deck that plays a longer game than a deck like this one, and most of all you do is sit back and counter stuff. Cutting a Mana Leak would be better than Dissipate (Which would still be bad) because Leak reads more like "Target opponent thinks/knows you have Mana Leak every step of the game. That player pays 3 additional mana for his important spells" There isn't even much value in gaining the creature. Most often SCM is a 6 mana DOJ. 3 in the MB 1 in the SB? 1 in the SB? what do you side it in against? why? why would a real sb card with impact worthy of a sb card not be better? 2 Hard counters in U/w control is laughable. Don't say you run 6 cuz of Snaps cuz you dont considering thats a 2 card combo without the use of 4 ofs. This deck goes long. Once you Snap back your dissipate its gone also and then you are left with more Snaps? Its just really bad. Like "Snapcaster good card I run 4" without ever considering context. This deck doesnt tap out. Dissipate reads 3 mana: stop anything. Snapcaster in that density in this deck reads more like "spend 2 additional mana to maybe cast the spell you want but probably not because you drew more useless 2/1s instead"
Also, Zenith is the nuts and I really don't like Elspeth. I don't think shes great at stopping Thrun because once you make the set of tokens she is getting burned out (game 1, game 2 you have better answers). Also i can think of very few situations where you would need the board sweep ability of hers and ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO USE IT. The good thing about Disk was the creatures it was gonna blow up couldn't just attack and kill it. I run WSZ in its place, gives better game 1 vs control which is important cuz you might not get a game 2.
Totally agree on Ratchet Bomb. They're obviously great against pretty much any aggro deck, but I'm surprised just how good they are in control mirrors. Drop it turn 2 and I've found that most control decks won't even bother Leaking it. Then just tick it up once a turn while you both do the traditional control mirror standoff and before you know it it is has six counters and they can't play any of their Titans or Sphinxes for fear of them just immediately exploding. Alternatively, leaving one sitting around at 3 makes opposing Oblivion Rings near blanks. Just a great card that fills in the gaps that counters and sweepers sometimes can't reach.
Ok I'm only going to say this once. This is a control deck. Your not supposed to have an early game outside of countering and killing ****. If you want/need an early game play a midrange deck. Some sort of UW blade deck. Adding creatures to a pure control deck only waters it down and makes you deck worse.
I've been fiddling around with a slightly modified version of Cuneo's original list and I will absolutely echo this sentiment. Going (mostly) creature-less just blanks so many of your opponents cards from the start. Doom Blade, Slagstorm, Day of Judgment, all these pieces of the removal arms race just do next to nothing against you. With entire sections of your opponent's decks just blanked, you're free to counter what matters, sweep the rest and then just crush them with Walkers (not creatures!) when they inevitably run out of gas.
Having played with both, one of the things I've disliked about UW Humans and Blade decks is just how anemic their counters actually are sometimes. You play Mana Leak, but you also really, really want to tap out on turn 3 to drop a Geist or Mirran Crusader or Sword of Blankity Blank. It's the nature of the beast with such decks, but it sometimes made me feel like I'm trying to play two different decks.
Creature-light UW Control does not have this issue. You have one objective against literally every deck: get to the endgame. To do this, you counter every relevant threat, sweep when you need to, and draw cards for dirt cheap or at instant speed in the meantime. No 3-drops to tie up your mana, just pure old-school control.
The top decks in Standard are capable of doing some incredibly scary stuff. Illusions, Tempered Steel and Mono-Red can goldfish you around turn 4, UW Humans or GW Tokens only really need their 3 drops to finish the job and Wolf-Run Ramp is...well, Wolf-Run Ramp. When you devote so much of your resources just to controlling them, however, ignoring any semblance of early threats in order to ensure the potency of your late ones, you stand more than a chance at taking them down. There's only so much a lot of decks can do against 6-10 counters, 6-8 sweepers and the ability to buy them all back at any time.
Not exactly a matchup, but most of my decks really, really don't want to see Torpor Orb, Night of Soul's Betrayal or Humility. The amount of cards that those three permanents just shut down between my decks is mind-boggling.
Between Gavony Township and Mikaeus, the Lunarch, Curse of Death's Hold is not even close to GG against GW tokens, and even Mono-Red has things like Stromkirk Noble to nullify it somewhat. Maybe possibly decent against UW Humans since it turns off Moorland Haunt (unless they have an Anthem effect out), but overall it just doesn't seem worth the slots.
I am currently running a Chainer list very similar to this one. I love him to pieces. He's amazing and having open access to my opponents' creatures as well as my own makes me giggle. As such I would personally recommend Disciple of Griselbrand as an additional sac outlet. He gives back life, which I have found to be HUGE in this deck considering how fast I generally kill myself.
Oooh, I like!
I haven't actually had time to really scour Innistrad for new gems for this deck, but he seems great. Paying for sacrifices generally sucks, but the life gain should make up for it.
I think there is something about crushing the hopes of your opponents in one foul swoop about tokens that is just so apealing.
My meta was complaining to me over lunch today about my token deck lol. Somthing about dropping Marton Stromgald + Insurrection in the same turn was a dirty trick lol.
If you ever feel like going mono R tokens you can join us few who play Marton. He is quite amazing and underrated.
Cannot agree with this enough. He's a glass cannon if there ever was one, but there's really nothing like sacking your entire land base to Firecat Blitz in order to attack for over 400 damage.
As for Saprolings, look into Night Soil. It's like Necrogenesis, but the old template means the exiling is a cost and thus cannot be responded to. Insanely good GY hate in any deck, even better in a Saproling build.
I recently converted my old reliable 60 card Zombie tribal deck into a Grimgrin, Corpse-Born EDH deck. The heavy Voltron theme would probably be better served if the supporting cast was not restricted to mostly Zombies, but that's the only thing keeping the spirit of the original Zombie deck alive. It was one of my first decks and probably the first I built that was actually "good", and I can't bear to part with it in spirit as well as body.
It's obviously really powerful if it activates, but six counters is just so much. Even with an effect that lets you draw more than one card on your turn, that's still seven turns before it's done anything for you, and if you're putting counters on it during other people's turns, you're probably in pretty good shape anyway. I suppose proliferate could help a bit, but even then it's a bit too clunky for my tastes.
Hmmm, I know it doesn't seem like it's very smart, but here's a weird play. Animar(me), Ghost council, and a blue player I didn't remember what is, I think it was lorthos
Turn 1: Island, sol ring, signet. Two other people drop land each.
Turn 2: Island, transmute drift of Phantasm. Grabbing a Cloudstone.(Why, I do hate you all, and want to end this). Ghost drops a plains, thinks, and passes. Blue player is primed to counter with more islands, sol ring.
Turn 3: Forest, Animar, play cloudstone. Ghost says drops a small creature tokens with master's call, while still keeping that last white open. Blue player mills me for a fair bit with traumatize, and I have no Eldrazis to save me.
Thinking this is the end for me, I went full blitz. I drew a card, then saw a great opening. Played a morph creature (it's always willbender), reduced the cost. Thinking about it for a bit, with two lands in hand, I played one, then played another morph(chromeshell crab), bouncing the two with cloudstone, I got an infinite animar. Then, I swung at the ghost dad, cause he was getting annoyed with a lack of answers. As he left, I asked him why did he play ghost dad if he saw my Animar. To which he replied, I forgot the protection until I died.
Now, all that's left is the blue player, who is still thinking about bouncing Animar. I passed turn, and he just played a Cryptic command, thinking that he'll be able to gain some tempo by bouncing Animar and drawing a card. I pitched the last card in my hand, tapped a blue and green, and dug thru my graveyard. He looked at me for a second, gave me the worst look, and told me that this was unfair.
Yes, my fellow players, that last card I showed him was none other than.... Glamerdye.
Nah, I started running it in response to him using it on me most of the time. His Ghave list is tokens anyway, not combo.
DramaTurtle: Nah, I'm not running combo. Usually don't, seems a little lame to win that way to me. Or at least to intentionally do the same combo every game. BUT I DIGRESS. lol
Well, it did have a fair bit of an effect. He would hit Sorin, all four recent vamp lords, Caged Sun, Mutilate, stuff like that. I could still whittle him down with Corrupt, Sorin's Vengeance, stuff like that, plus Drana beats, but it would still be kinda hard to come back from that. Especially since the other guy up here (not Ghave) that I play with plays Riku.
Clearly, I'm the biggest threat at that table. Ghave's player is a ****waffle. Lol
Yay, a little bit of actual support on this page. Lol.
So...he gets to 10 mana against a Riku player and then decides to kick a Sacrament against a mono-black tribal deck...? That seems...insanely stupid considering the power level of Riku.
Does Riku often win after this happens? Cause it seems like he's making out like a bandit here.
I think Thraximundar is the most metal General available: his name means He who paints the earth red. Brutal. #!$%ing brutal.
I support this idea for the stated reasons, plus the fact that it puts you in the right colors for the card with the hightest amount of metal per syllable in the game: Gravelgill Axeshark.
Things are looking pretty crappy for me until I draw Kessig Wolf-Run, which I promptly play and use to get the remaining 13 points of general damage on Progenitus. I pass turn to Rhys, and he plays Nomad's Assembly for something like 7 Soldiers. Again, things aren't looking good.
At least, they wouldn't be if I hadn't been holding Repercussion and Blasphemous Act in my hand since turn 2.
Totally agree on Ratchet Bomb. They're obviously great against pretty much any aggro deck, but I'm surprised just how good they are in control mirrors. Drop it turn 2 and I've found that most control decks won't even bother Leaking it. Then just tick it up once a turn while you both do the traditional control mirror standoff and before you know it it is has six counters and they can't play any of their Titans or Sphinxes for fear of them just immediately exploding. Alternatively, leaving one sitting around at 3 makes opposing Oblivion Rings near blanks. Just a great card that fills in the gaps that counters and sweepers sometimes can't reach.
I've been fiddling around with a slightly modified version of Cuneo's original list and I will absolutely echo this sentiment. Going (mostly) creature-less just blanks so many of your opponents cards from the start. Doom Blade, Slagstorm, Day of Judgment, all these pieces of the removal arms race just do next to nothing against you. With entire sections of your opponent's decks just blanked, you're free to counter what matters, sweep the rest and then just crush them with Walkers (not creatures!) when they inevitably run out of gas.
Having played with both, one of the things I've disliked about UW Humans and Blade decks is just how anemic their counters actually are sometimes. You play Mana Leak, but you also really, really want to tap out on turn 3 to drop a Geist or Mirran Crusader or Sword of Blankity Blank. It's the nature of the beast with such decks, but it sometimes made me feel like I'm trying to play two different decks.
Creature-light UW Control does not have this issue. You have one objective against literally every deck: get to the endgame. To do this, you counter every relevant threat, sweep when you need to, and draw cards for dirt cheap or at instant speed in the meantime. No 3-drops to tie up your mana, just pure old-school control.
The top decks in Standard are capable of doing some incredibly scary stuff. Illusions, Tempered Steel and Mono-Red can goldfish you around turn 4, UW Humans or GW Tokens only really need their 3 drops to finish the job and Wolf-Run Ramp is...well, Wolf-Run Ramp. When you devote so much of your resources just to controlling them, however, ignoring any semblance of early threats in order to ensure the potency of your late ones, you stand more than a chance at taking them down. There's only so much a lot of decks can do against 6-10 counters, 6-8 sweepers and the ability to buy them all back at any time.
Oooh, I like!
I haven't actually had time to really scour Innistrad for new gems for this deck, but he seems great. Paying for sacrifices generally sucks, but the life gain should make up for it.
Thanks!
...that is a fantastic question.
*does so*
Cannot agree with this enough. He's a glass cannon if there ever was one, but there's really nothing like sacking your entire land base to Firecat Blitz in order to attack for over 400 damage.
As for Saprolings, look into Night Soil. It's like Necrogenesis, but the old template means the exiling is a cost and thus cannot be responded to. Insanely good GY hate in any deck, even better in a Saproling build.
It's obviously really powerful if it activates, but six counters is just so much. Even with an effect that lets you draw more than one card on your turn, that's still seven turns before it's done anything for you, and if you're putting counters on it during other people's turns, you're probably in pretty good shape anyway. I suppose proliferate could help a bit, but even then it's a bit too clunky for my tastes.
*finds spot for card in own Animar list*
So...he gets to 10 mana against a Riku player and then decides to kick a Sacrament against a mono-black tribal deck...? That seems...insanely stupid considering the power level of Riku.
Does Riku often win after this happens? Cause it seems like he's making out like a bandit here.
I support this idea for the stated reasons, plus the fact that it puts you in the right colors for the card with the hightest amount of metal per syllable in the game: Gravelgill Axeshark.
Barktooth Warbeard is also essential.