If evasion is your concern than Glaring Spotlight is the obvious winner between the two. Not only is unblockable pretty much a guaranteed hit, it gives all your creatures HEXPROOF as well; this means you can crack it defensively too. For your purposes, piercing hexproof is just a nice side effect.
Also as others have mentioned, Trinket Mage, 1CMC Matters cycle, also Metalcraft and Affinity cards etc.
Sac Ab Ghoul to GG, trigger Diregraf, trigger pawn. Get an eldrazi spawn. Sac eldrazi spawn to get 1, use that mana for Havengul Lich, to recast ghoul, which costed 0, rinse and repeat.
It was super wonky and fun
GrimGrin often draws ire due to how easy he is to combo with just for being an abusable sac engine, but I love playing against them personally. Knowing it's going to be a challenge from the starting gate often is all you need.
My take on it is simply this. I dislike cheesy two-card-combo wins.
It's really disheartening to play a good game, only for someone to get Tooth and Nail or whatever, drop Mikaeus, The Unhallowed and Triskellion, for example, and just say "I win." Now, you could argue that that is a three card combo, but the same principle works with just Mike+Trike and 12 mana. I find that it just disrupts the game flow, and often ends otherwise really good games too early.
If you have a multi-part combo, then by all means bring it on. I believe most decks SHOULD run at least one combo, for two reasons.
1. Magic should not be four people playing solitaire at the same table. Disrupting combos is even more fun than playing them in my opinion. It encourages interactivity between players, which is when EDH really shines. You're not going to see the same kind of wacky interactions anywhere else, after all.
2. Having a way out of a really long game is nice. We've all had games where it slogged on for multiple hours when it really should not have, and at some point you will hit the critical mass to which everyone agrees "Yeah lets move on to the next one." but everyone is too proud or stubborn to admit it, at which point combo is welcome.
As with any meta, it's important to always encourage the other players to run answers rather than homebrew up your own personal banlist.
When I look to put combos in a deck, I look for a few things. If I'm going to use a combo, where ultimately getting it online means I win, I like it to fit at least one of the following conditions.
1.It's Foreshadowed. My Sedris deck uses the Worldgorger Dragon loop, but it's telecasted in that it's normally pretty obvious I'm going for it. I use the dragon for unearth shenanigans mostly, but it simply being in my graveyard is normally enough to keep my friends on their toes enough to have the foresight to start planning for the inevitable.
2.It's got a lot of parts. My Dakkon Landramp deck has a four-part combo in it using Oboro, Palace in the Clouds+Walking Atlas+Retreat to Hagra+Retreat to Coralhelm. I use all four cards as strong options for the deck, that just happened to combo. It's hard to get all four parts in the first place, and it's pretty easily disrupted, so I don't feel bad about it.
One thing you may notice between the three examples above is that all of them are combos built out of cards that would already be good in their respective decks (Even Worldgorger Dragon I use in Sedris as a post-combat Unearth to keep my unearthed army, untap them all, and untap all my lands for instants with). I think it's very important to not run cards simply because theyre part of a win-combo, otherwise you wind up with dead draws very easily.
I'm no moderator but I think it's important that we don't turn this into a competitive vs casual discussion, nor the ethics behind infinite combo.
As others have said, control fits the bill the best, but I think the type of control used should be looked at. One of my friends plays incredibly reactively but almost never uses direct spot removal or counterspells. Instead, he's running cards like
These are very strong options that offer defensive options for yourself, or to aide another player, which gives you the power to be very political while still remaining a threat to be dealt with, but when push comes to shove all of them offer a huge line of defense for your own strategies.
Azami, Lady of Scrolls, but she has a stigma of being a hard control-combo deck, but most reasonable metas apply pressure based on how the deck is built. My deck, for example, is far from combo/control. I run about 40 wizards, a bunch of wacky bounce stuff, and stuff like Day of the Dragons as wincons, so it's rare that I actually get a lot of heat early.
One advantage out of building Mono-U Wizards as opposed to an Azami deck is it takes the focus off the commander. I rarely play Azami turn 5, since normally I have many wizards to play already and don't need the extra cards right away. This also opened up the ability to change the commander on the fly if I feel like it. Swapping out for Venser, Shaper Savant or Jalira, Master Polymorphist offers fun new strategies for the deck to keep it fresh.
I'm surprised there hasn't been much activity on here lately.
Monkmiroku, what are your opinions on Journey into Nyx? Any cards that you think you might add?
Yea Sorry about that. I've been having a LOT IRL go on so Magic has frankly been on the backburner. Honestly, the new set looked pretty underwhelming as far as this deck is concerned. Only one card stands out as good, that being Disciple of Deceit, but I'm not sure how reliably I can get the trigger off, so testing will have to be done. The only other decent card that might be good is Chariot of Victory, but greaves are way better for my purposes. Mana Confluence isn't an issue to me as my mana base is pretty stable.
One change I have been toying with is Arhcaeomancer in Phenax's spot. Phenax has been under performing as of late, even in the little I've been playing here and there. Either he blows out or he stalls and sits, and I need more consistency. Arhcaeomancer is lower on the curve and provides a much needed service in retrieving one of the harder types of cards to get from my graveyard, and a small body. Recall may replace it, offering access to any card, however.
I put together a Lazav/Wrexial deck myself that I'm hoping I can get some input on. It is hopefully able to use either of these guys as generals, with perhaps a bit more leaning towards Lazav. I thought I would post it here though because even with using Lazav sometimes I took a LOT of inspiration for the deck from this primer. It may have a bit more voltron cards than this Wrexial list, but I still wanted to follow the basic idea of not a lot of targeted mill, while still being able to win with mill or Lazav/Wrexial voltron.
Do you think this is a good deck list for adapting your decklist for more voltron elements?
Lazav offers a very aggressive play style. Ultimately, your goal isn't so much to deck out the table, but beat face. I could be wrong in saying this, but for your purposes, chunking single libraries is actually BETTER in your case. Assuming you have a consistent playgroup, you know who has the creatures you want for lazav. That's when card like Traumatize shine for Lazav. You can mill out player A for his creatures, and use them to kill players B and C while play A bleeds out from mill.
One thing that is certain though, is that you really can't teeter between Lazav or Wrexial for Voltron. If you want to do Lazav as voltron, then build accordingly. Wrexial and Lazav are dynamically too different to play as Voltron and achieve consistent enough results. For Voltron, the commander is the show, so which one you use certainly matters, the polar opposite of a deck like mine, where the commander is a supplement to the plan, and not a lynch pin necessary for the plan to carry out. For Voltron, Lazav honestly is a far better commander to use, however. He has Hexproof, offering instantaneous protection and he's a decently sized 3/3 for 4 mana. He is color demanding though, so keep that in mind with filters or color producing mana rocks. Your list is decent, but here's a few cards that shouldn't be in all together.
Bitter Ordeal I could be wrong in saying this, but the only thing you really have going is board wipe ordeal. Otherwise, it's really hard to get any milage. Consider Sadistic Sacrament Jace's Phantasm even in mill-gro, it's underwhelming. I used it for a long time and it's just not strong enough. Tenacious Dead Again, underwhelming. Bloodghast or Reassembling Skeleton are almost strictly better, if you're wanting things of it's nature. Wight of Precinct Six like the Phantasm, underwhelming. Consider a Sewer Nemesis or Mortivore, if anything. Memory Erosion All it does is make others upset and feel taxed. Draws hate and doesn't do enough.
AT first I thought that you meant you all had house ruled so that prophet could be considered a legend, ergo a commander. Friends don't let friends play Prophet as commander.
In Wrexial I pack tons of GY hate so I skip on exile removal and wait for it to hit the yard. Still, efficient removal includes those that can't be countered, preferably. Sudden Death sadly is the only one off the top of my head but it's a good one.
Sarkhan the Mad is decent, though not the best. His -2 is still targeted sac removal. his 0 will often flip a land, and because he's going to kill himself he's generally left alone. In my experience just using his 0 I net 2-4 cards with him. It's probably better to run Ancient Craving or something, but he's a fun card, and has some utility.
Nissa Revane is really niche, but in GW elves it works. The life gain is still useful, and in green you have access to Doubling Season which helps get there faster. her ult is GG.
Ajani Vengeant I wholeheartedly disagree. The + keeps key lands, threats, and anything else tapped. It's not Tamiyo, but he's not blue so he doesn't need to be. The Lightning Helix kills 70% of things you need killed, and gains life. The -7 will lock a problem player out of the game. I'd say it's a staple in WR, but that's just me.
Ral Zerak is niche, but I could see some ways to durdle with him. Stasis comes to mind.
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver underestimated. Just exiling cards is still resource denial, even if at random. He drops early and the +2 keeps him alive. Because it only effects one player, only one person normally bothers to deal with it. if the -10 goes off it's difficult for opponents to stand back up.
Counterspell it.
Fork it.
Up your ETB creature count to get the most of it.
More manadorks/manarocks to get back in the game faster.
Eat a chocolate bar as others suggested.
Or if you know it's going to be an issue, kill the player before they can use it.
Unconditional exile in black is always good, but there are better. Cannibalize, Sever the Bloodline and Ashes to Ashes are all so much better. Since black has such a wide array of removal as it is, normally you only need one slot for exile anyways, and normally that'd go to Sever, as its flashback and token clearing abilities put it far ahead of the others. If you're trying to double up in heavier control, Ashes is a 2-for-1 and Cannibalize is 2CMC exile and there is almost always dorky 1/1s laying around to pump to offset it's ignorable downside. Gild doesn't really have a place unless you're really trying to ramp into a game ender but need to cruise control on the way up.
I do think it has some application in BUG PlasmCap decks in standard though. Just not sure what exactly to ramp into.
GSZ is the major reason, but it has other uses. It gives you a 0CMC creature for Birthing Pod chain. It's still a forest so you can fetch it in with fetches for surprise blocks, and as a creature it can be pitched to survival or other outlets.
It does have the definitive disadvantage of being hit by sweepers, however.
Not much competition here. Wall dropping T2 makes it a huge advantage over Carven. If you've just got two lands but can cast blossoms, that means you have 3 draws to work with to find another land instead of 2, which makes a huge difference. Not only this, but its 1G. Even of Carven was GG instead of 1GG there's the definitive advantage of just being easier to cast.
All seem pretty cool for a 1/1 counter deck. My vote goes to Krajj, vorel as a second but the other two add colors which is good. Marath could be good too.
Oh your absolutely right. The flavor reasons would e horrible, but during scars standard the coolest part about it was that the colors got skewed a bit and made for interesting play and deck building. If the rest of scars wasn't lol broken it might have been way more fun.
A lot of time shifted cards did this top. Is Harmonize really in flavor all that much for green? They shifted the name so it sounds more green but we all know it's just Concentrate. I think Damnation is easily the most on flavor still even after shifting.
But you get my point. It'd be a fun house rule to run with for a week or two, experiment around with and see how it goes. Kinda like ignoring the banlist for a week or something to let the silliness ensue then go back to good rcbanlist rules.
I personally don't mind them as they stand. Mono G really does not need Spitting Image, as it would give GB, GW, and GR access to a clone effect and cloning is specifically supposed to be blue, save for a few weird red ones that die at eot.
I would like to see the unlocking of Phyrexian mana cards though. I kinda contradict my previous statement saying this, I know, but giving Tezzeret's Gambit and Dismember gives glimmers of hope to other parts of the color pie at a cost. Birthing Pod would be a staple in a lot more decks, yes, but outside of G it costs health every time and that really stacks a toll quickly.
Also as others have mentioned, Trinket Mage, 1CMC Matters cycle, also Metalcraft and Affinity cards etc.
UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
It was before Gravecrawler was out.
Grim-Grin, Corpse Born + Rooftop Storm + Havengul Lich + Rooftop Storm + Pawn of Ulamog + Diregraf Captain + Abattoir Ghoul(although any would have worked as the looping zombie.
Sac Ab Ghoul to GG, trigger Diregraf, trigger pawn. Get an eldrazi spawn. Sac eldrazi spawn to get 1, use that mana for Havengul Lich, to recast ghoul, which costed 0, rinse and repeat.
It was super wonky and fun
GrimGrin often draws ire due to how easy he is to combo with just for being an abusable sac engine, but I love playing against them personally. Knowing it's going to be a challenge from the starting gate often is all you need.
UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
I dislike cheesy two-card-combo wins.
It's really disheartening to play a good game, only for someone to get Tooth and Nail or whatever, drop Mikaeus, The Unhallowed and Triskellion, for example, and just say "I win." Now, you could argue that that is a three card combo, but the same principle works with just Mike+Trike and 12 mana. I find that it just disrupts the game flow, and often ends otherwise really good games too early.
If you have a multi-part combo, then by all means bring it on. I believe most decks SHOULD run at least one combo, for two reasons.
1. Magic should not be four people playing solitaire at the same table. Disrupting combos is even more fun than playing them in my opinion. It encourages interactivity between players, which is when EDH really shines. You're not going to see the same kind of wacky interactions anywhere else, after all.
2. Having a way out of a really long game is nice. We've all had games where it slogged on for multiple hours when it really should not have, and at some point you will hit the critical mass to which everyone agrees "Yeah lets move on to the next one." but everyone is too proud or stubborn to admit it, at which point combo is welcome.
As with any meta, it's important to always encourage the other players to run answers rather than homebrew up your own personal banlist.
When I look to put combos in a deck, I look for a few things. If I'm going to use a combo, where ultimately getting it online means I win, I like it to fit at least one of the following conditions.
1.It's Foreshadowed. My Sedris deck uses the Worldgorger Dragon loop, but it's telecasted in that it's normally pretty obvious I'm going for it. I use the dragon for unearth shenanigans mostly, but it simply being in my graveyard is normally enough to keep my friends on their toes enough to have the foresight to start planning for the inevitable.
2.It's got a lot of parts. My Dakkon Landramp deck has a four-part combo in it using Oboro, Palace in the Clouds+Walking Atlas+Retreat to Hagra+Retreat to Coralhelm. I use all four cards as strong options for the deck, that just happened to combo. It's hard to get all four parts in the first place, and it's pretty easily disrupted, so I don't feel bad about it.
3.You really have to stretch for it My Azami wizard-tribal deck has no easy infinite combos that I'm aware of, but it definite hits durdle-wombo status eventually. We're talking Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx+Intruder Alarm+Walking Atlas+Sapphire Medallion+Helm of Awakening+Archaeomancer+Venser, Shaper Savant+Words of Wind+Evacuation level janky. This kind of combo is by far my favorite, and it's the most impressive to see. There's lots of moving parts, and it's flat impressive to see or pilot.
One thing you may notice between the three examples above is that all of them are combos built out of cards that would already be good in their respective decks (Even Worldgorger Dragon I use in Sedris as a post-combat Unearth to keep my unearthed army, untap them all, and untap all my lands for instants with). I think it's very important to not run cards simply because theyre part of a win-combo, otherwise you wind up with dead draws very easily.
UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
As others have said, control fits the bill the best, but I think the type of control used should be looked at. One of my friends plays incredibly reactively but almost never uses direct spot removal or counterspells. Instead, he's running cards like
-Cremate to "counter" graveyard cards
-Blossoming Defense to stop targeting effects
-Boros Fury Shield to redirect damage
-Sadistic Sacrament effects to proactively get rid of combo cards before they can become a problem
and so forth.
These are very strong options that offer defensive options for yourself, or to aide another player, which gives you the power to be very political while still remaining a threat to be dealt with, but when push comes to shove all of them offer a huge line of defense for your own strategies.
UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
One advantage out of building Mono-U Wizards as opposed to an Azami deck is it takes the focus off the commander. I rarely play Azami turn 5, since normally I have many wizards to play already and don't need the extra cards right away. This also opened up the ability to change the commander on the fly if I feel like it. Swapping out for Venser, Shaper Savant or Jalira, Master Polymorphist offers fun new strategies for the deck to keep it fresh.
Being monoblue gets you access to a lot of neat wizards that are difficult to use in multicolor, such as Master of Waves, or Rimewind Taskmage/Heidar, Rimewind Master if you're using snow lands. You can also other mono-U stuff like Vedalken Shackles as well.
UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
You're absolutely right I did. Thanks.
Yea Sorry about that. I've been having a LOT IRL go on so Magic has frankly been on the backburner. Honestly, the new set looked pretty underwhelming as far as this deck is concerned. Only one card stands out as good, that being Disciple of Deceit, but I'm not sure how reliably I can get the trigger off, so testing will have to be done. The only other decent card that might be good is Chariot of Victory, but greaves are way better for my purposes. Mana Confluence isn't an issue to me as my mana base is pretty stable.
One change I have been toying with is Arhcaeomancer in Phenax's spot. Phenax has been under performing as of late, even in the little I've been playing here and there. Either he blows out or he stalls and sits, and I need more consistency. Arhcaeomancer is lower on the curve and provides a much needed service in retrieving one of the harder types of cards to get from my graveyard, and a small body. Recall may replace it, offering access to any card, however.
Lazav offers a very aggressive play style. Ultimately, your goal isn't so much to deck out the table, but beat face. I could be wrong in saying this, but for your purposes, chunking single libraries is actually BETTER in your case. Assuming you have a consistent playgroup, you know who has the creatures you want for lazav. That's when card like Traumatize shine for Lazav. You can mill out player A for his creatures, and use them to kill players B and C while play A bleeds out from mill.
One thing that is certain though, is that you really can't teeter between Lazav or Wrexial for Voltron. If you want to do Lazav as voltron, then build accordingly. Wrexial and Lazav are dynamically too different to play as Voltron and achieve consistent enough results. For Voltron, the commander is the show, so which one you use certainly matters, the polar opposite of a deck like mine, where the commander is a supplement to the plan, and not a lynch pin necessary for the plan to carry out. For Voltron, Lazav honestly is a far better commander to use, however. He has Hexproof, offering instantaneous protection and he's a decently sized 3/3 for 4 mana. He is color demanding though, so keep that in mind with filters or color producing mana rocks. Your list is decent, but here's a few cards that shouldn't be in all together.
Bitter Ordeal I could be wrong in saying this, but the only thing you really have going is board wipe ordeal. Otherwise, it's really hard to get any milage. Consider Sadistic Sacrament
Jace's Phantasm even in mill-gro, it's underwhelming. I used it for a long time and it's just not strong enough.
Tenacious Dead Again, underwhelming. Bloodghast or Reassembling Skeleton are almost strictly better, if you're wanting things of it's nature.
Wight of Precinct Six like the Phantasm, underwhelming. Consider a Sewer Nemesis or Mortivore, if anything.
Memory Erosion All it does is make others upset and feel taxed. Draws hate and doesn't do enough.
UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
In Wrexial I pack tons of GY hate so I skip on exile removal and wait for it to hit the yard. Still, efficient removal includes those that can't be countered, preferably. Sudden Death sadly is the only one off the top of my head but it's a good one.
UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
Nissa Revane is really niche, but in GW elves it works. The life gain is still useful, and in green you have access to Doubling Season which helps get there faster. her ult is GG.
Ajani Vengeant I wholeheartedly disagree. The + keeps key lands, threats, and anything else tapped. It's not Tamiyo, but he's not blue so he doesn't need to be. The Lightning Helix kills 70% of things you need killed, and gains life. The -7 will lock a problem player out of the game. I'd say it's a staple in WR, but that's just me.
Ral Zerak is niche, but I could see some ways to durdle with him. Stasis comes to mind.
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver underestimated. Just exiling cards is still resource denial, even if at random. He drops early and the +2 keeps him alive. Because it only effects one player, only one person normally bothers to deal with it. if the -10 goes off it's difficult for opponents to stand back up.
UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
Fork it.
Up your ETB creature count to get the most of it.
More manadorks/manarocks to get back in the game faster.
Eat a chocolate bar as others suggested.
Or if you know it's going to be an issue, kill the player before they can use it.
UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
I do think it has some application in BUG PlasmCap decks in standard though. Just not sure what exactly to ramp into.
UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
It does have the definitive disadvantage of being hit by sweepers, however.
UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
All seem pretty cool for a 1/1 counter deck. My vote goes to Krajj, vorel as a second but the other two add colors which is good. Marath could be good too.
UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
A lot of time shifted cards did this top. Is Harmonize really in flavor all that much for green? They shifted the name so it sounds more green but we all know it's just Concentrate. I think Damnation is easily the most on flavor still even after shifting.
But you get my point. It'd be a fun house rule to run with for a week or two, experiment around with and see how it goes. Kinda like ignoring the banlist for a week or something to let the silliness ensue then go back to good rcbanlist rules.
UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
I would like to see the unlocking of Phyrexian mana cards though. I kinda contradict my previous statement saying this, I know, but giving Tezzeret's Gambit and Dismember gives glimmers of hope to other parts of the color pie at a cost. Birthing Pod would be a staple in a lot more decks, yes, but outside of G it costs health every time and that really stacks a toll quickly.
UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR