Years ago, there was a 12 man big game free-for-all. Before my attack phase, I Berserk my Sliver Queen. I Regrowth Berserk and cast it again. Another Berserk hit it from across the table. I swung for 56 Trample. After damage was dealt, and the annoying Ashen Ghoul/Nether Shadow Deck was gone, I promptly bounced the queen with Karakas.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vintage. That's about it. Maybe Standard, if it could get it together into something interesting enough to play.
Rarely do I scoop, and certainly not just because I'm at a strategic disadvantage. That's just me I guess. The tools are there, just a matter of figuring out the most optimal ones. I also don't see a problem with Boon Satyr. Some number out of the sb could come as an unexpected angle to deal with it.
*Shrugs* The answers to BBoV that B/G has are sub-optimal. Tossing them in MD hurts B/G a lot. Putting them in SB gimps ones SB. We'll have to agree to disagree.
Yeah Devour Flesh would be the best, but there's other creatures (Mutavault..) on the board much too often.
Exactly this. There's nearly always another creature on their side, so devour flesh is a very poor answer to him. In terms of straight B/G, the answers to BBoV aren't optimal. Normally, when he hits, it's game. Just is. It's the nature of the make up.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vintage. That's about it. Maybe Standard, if it could get it together into something interesting enough to play.
I don't know what you are talking about. While Blood Baron can be a difficult card to play around, if by GB the OP means Dredge, I find the card to be threatening to the Dredge Plan, but not backbreaking. Devour Flesh, also, is a perfectly acceptable answer. It won't always get you the result you want, but it's plenty effective.
How is a card that forces your opponent to sac ANY creature, a plenty effective answer? Orzhov is creature based. No Orzhov player with any brain capacity has a lone BBoV on the board for Devour Flesh to do what the B/G player wants.
Where you either have enough of a board presence where they would lose more life on the swing back than they gained or by leading them to believe (either correctly or not) that you have something in hand that would advance your board to a point where the life gained is irrelevant. If you have a few creatures on board and they have a BB, you could represent that you have a Nighthowler in hand, or some other such play that would make attacking with their BB sub-optimal.
Theorycraft. B/G does not have a viable answer to BBoV. Devour Flesh is great, but doesn't stop him as mentioned in the above quote. Satyr? What B/G deck that would like to compete with other T1 decks is going to give up valuable space to Boon Satyr. There are far more needed things to put in the deck than Satyr. Makes the deck weaker to run him.
Plenty of other decks have 100% viable answers to BBoV. B/G does not have a one stop card that knocks him on his ass, and that's ok. Again, ever deck has an Achilles Heel. Just how it is.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vintage. That's about it. Maybe Standard, if it could get it together into something interesting enough to play.
[quote from="Misanthropist" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/552844-help-black-greens-answer-to-blood-baron?comment=11"]BBoV is hardly game over for B/G. It can certainly be a challenge but it can be overcome. Ideally you put your opponent into a situation where attacking with the BB is sub optimal, but if need be with the threats that B/G can present the B/W or Esper decks will have spent early turns using their removal to slow your board state. If mono black has the potential win through a BBoV B/G certainly can as well.
What situation is that? As an aside, MBD has a lot of problems with Orhzov also. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying it's highly improbable a B/G can take out a BBoV.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vintage. That's about it. Maybe Standard, if it could get it together into something interesting enough to play.
Every deck has an Achilles Heel. For B/G, it's BBoV. Devour Flesh? Because Orzhov is known for attacking with a solo BBoV as their only creature on the board? Boon Satyr? Better make damn sure that entire hand is empty, as it's assuredly got some form of removal in it. Given the plethora for W/B (more than G/B)...
Yes, Devour Flesh can take out BBoV but, consider the conditions needed for it to be effective. Same with Boon Satyr. Technically, yes they work. How often do you suppose you'll be in a game where you meet the conditions needed?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vintage. That's about it. Maybe Standard, if it could get it together into something interesting enough to play.
Scavenging Ooze is $6 not $20. Would people stop saying MBD is cheap when you remove one its most powerful cards? Oh yeah it's great when you don't buy $120 worth of mutavaults.....really sick of seeing people advocate the cost of a MBD deck that would lose virtually every mirror match and be greatly underpowered in general.
I think people ignore Muta in the cost of the deck, simply because it's presumed that 4 of would be in there. It's like the cost of admission. They shouldn't ignore it, as $120 on 4 cards is a lot (throw in the set of Seize also) but that's how people evaluate MBD as a whole.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vintage. That's about it. Maybe Standard, if it could get it together into something interesting enough to play.
That sounds like a problem of your play group, not a problem with the format. Mono Black is a reasonably inexpensive deck (besides Mutavaults, but it doesn't count 'cause every deck plays it) so it can be easily represented at that level. Summing up the entire format because of how your FNMs are going is like summing up a novel after reading the first page; it misrepresents the big picture and the actual state of the game.
GP Cincinnati, by example, has no Mono Black or Mono Blue Devotion in the Top 8, with Orzhov and Azorius popping up instead. Only 3 Esper Control decks means the deck is strong without having a stranglehold on the format, which is a far cry better than many past Standards. The Top 16 sported some more typical Black decks, but with a few others splashing Red, so the 75 is far from defined now. There's plenty of good about this Standard, and it's not just 'netdecking' (which I think is a term that should be put out to pasture, as the sharing of information regarding the game has gone so far beyond the times when that was supposedly a bad thing; now it's pretty much the norm, and this need to be original for some people- and the subsequent failure- somehow convince them that anyone who spends the time to take a more established deck and learn the nuances of it and tweak it as necessary doesn't actually do any work, which we should be able to agree is utter nonsense); knowing how to play the game well is why you see frequent competitors playing at the highest level.
Third sentence of my post...:p
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vintage. That's about it. Maybe Standard, if it could get it together into something interesting enough to play.
It's Magic. Pretty much it. Entirely dependent on where you live (to a small degree). My lgs's are clogged with mirrors of the latest ptq's so I stopped going. There's zero originality so there's not much point in going these days. Shut things down last month when there were 17 decks at a fnm.13 were either mbd or u/w/x. Been selling off my big name 4-of's before sept and might take another look after rtr block has cycled and things in my area have changed.
It's fun if you like netdecking. If not, then you're sol, as that's pretty much what magic is now.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vintage. That's about it. Maybe Standard, if it could get it together into something interesting enough to play.
If you're a mandatory 4 of in certain decks (Sphinx Revelation, Thoughtseize) I can kind of grasp the high pricetag ($22.00/$18.00 respectively).
Though something I can't grasp is why in the blue hell Brimaz, Lord of Oreskos is $35.00 each. He's a sideboard card in some u/w/x....and....ummm...huh. Same with old Voice of Resurgence hanging onto it's $33.00. No one plays the thing. For all the hype it got, it's quite literally a casual play card. It's in no PTQ lists. It's at no FNM I've ever been to.
For many a card, the price reasoning is off the rails.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vintage. That's about it. Maybe Standard, if it could get it together into something interesting enough to play.
What deck do you think is worth taking to the Open?
Kneejerk reaction is to play what you like and have fun.
If you're more interested in winning, go U/W/x or MBD as they're both pretty dominant. Both of which I'm so sick to death of seeing at my LCS's week after week. Last week was a turn out of 17 decks. 15 were either MBD or U/W/x. EXCITING!
Then there's your R/G, and your MUD still hanging on to round out the big 4.
My opinion is you should run as hard with your Jund as you can, as it's the underdog. I dig the underdog decks and decks no one is playing.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vintage. That's about it. Maybe Standard, if it could get it together into something interesting enough to play.
GP Melbourne top 8:
2 Green/Red/x monsters, 3 Blue/White/x control, 2 Black/x control, 1 mono-blue devotion, what a surprise. Meh, at least SCG Open Atlanta top 8 was actually interesting.
And on a brighter note, SCG Open Atlanta top 8:
1 mono red!!!!!
1 Red/white devotion!!!!!
3 Black/x control
1 Naya Hexproof
1 Red/green/x monsters
1 blue/white/x control
And guess which two decks were first and second.....:p
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vintage. That's about it. Maybe Standard, if it could get it together into something interesting enough to play.
It really is a fantastic deck in theory. In practice, as illenest said, it rarely works out like xmas. This season of standard is ripe with T1 decks that have alternate win cons. The most popular decks that top the ptq/fnm scene have two (some have three). As much as I love hexproof, This plan has...one? Best hope that glass cannon holds, and you've a boros charm right when those verdicts hit.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vintage. That's about it. Maybe Standard, if it could get it together into something interesting enough to play.
What's everyone else's feelings on Herald of Torment?
There are far better 2/3 drops. LBZ main deck is very viable right now given the amount of G/R running around. I had Specters in my old version and they worked ok. They demand removal immediately as always. I very much believe Ooze should have a place MD also. Won me many a game vs other T2 decks.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vintage. That's about it. Maybe Standard, if it could get it together into something interesting enough to play.
Hmm, seems like your time would be better spent playing something like Commander or limited, or hell, even pauper or cube rather than complaining about a format designed to be this way. If you are tired of seeing the top most competitive decks, stop watching competitive results...
One would think that avoiding competitive results would be simplistic. Until you roll into a fnm with an unplayed deck and promptly get railed by the netdecks who's results you've been advised to avoid.
Think you're quite right. The game is far different than the early part of the millennium.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vintage. That's about it. Maybe Standard, if it could get it together into something interesting enough to play.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
*Shrugs* The answers to BBoV that B/G has are sub-optimal. Tossing them in MD hurts B/G a lot. Putting them in SB gimps ones SB. We'll have to agree to disagree.
Exactly this. There's nearly always another creature on their side, so devour flesh is a very poor answer to him. In terms of straight B/G, the answers to BBoV aren't optimal. Normally, when he hits, it's game. Just is. It's the nature of the make up.
How is a card that forces your opponent to sac ANY creature, a plenty effective answer? Orzhov is creature based. No Orzhov player with any brain capacity has a lone BBoV on the board for Devour Flesh to do what the B/G player wants.
Theorycraft. B/G does not have a viable answer to BBoV. Devour Flesh is great, but doesn't stop him as mentioned in the above quote. Satyr? What B/G deck that would like to compete with other T1 decks is going to give up valuable space to Boon Satyr. There are far more needed things to put in the deck than Satyr. Makes the deck weaker to run him.
Plenty of other decks have 100% viable answers to BBoV. B/G does not have a one stop card that knocks him on his ass, and that's ok. Again, ever deck has an Achilles Heel. Just how it is.
Devour Flesh. Which helps after a swing, how? Honestly asking.
What situation is that? As an aside, MBD has a lot of problems with Orhzov also. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying it's highly improbable a B/G can take out a BBoV.
Every deck has an Achilles Heel. For B/G, it's BBoV. Devour Flesh? Because Orzhov is known for attacking with a solo BBoV as their only creature on the board? Boon Satyr? Better make damn sure that entire hand is empty, as it's assuredly got some form of removal in it. Given the plethora for W/B (more than G/B)...
Yes, Devour Flesh can take out BBoV but, consider the conditions needed for it to be effective. Same with Boon Satyr. Technically, yes they work. How often do you suppose you'll be in a game where you meet the conditions needed?
I think people ignore Muta in the cost of the deck, simply because it's presumed that 4 of would be in there. It's like the cost of admission. They shouldn't ignore it, as $120 on 4 cards is a lot (throw in the set of Seize also) but that's how people evaluate MBD as a whole.
Third sentence of my post...:p
It's fun if you like netdecking. If not, then you're sol, as that's pretty much what magic is now.
Though something I can't grasp is why in the blue hell Brimaz, Lord of Oreskos is $35.00 each. He's a sideboard card in some u/w/x....and....ummm...huh. Same with old Voice of Resurgence hanging onto it's $33.00. No one plays the thing. For all the hype it got, it's quite literally a casual play card. It's in no PTQ lists. It's at no FNM I've ever been to.
For many a card, the price reasoning is off the rails.
Kneejerk reaction is to play what you like and have fun.
If you're more interested in winning, go U/W/x or MBD as they're both pretty dominant. Both of which I'm so sick to death of seeing at my LCS's week after week. Last week was a turn out of 17 decks. 15 were either MBD or U/W/x. EXCITING!
Then there's your R/G, and your MUD still hanging on to round out the big 4.
My opinion is you should run as hard with your Jund as you can, as it's the underdog. I dig the underdog decks and decks no one is playing.
And guess which two decks were first and second.....:p
Lifebane Zombie, Nightveil Specter.
There are far better 2/3 drops. LBZ main deck is very viable right now given the amount of G/R running around. I had Specters in my old version and they worked ok. They demand removal immediately as always. I very much believe Ooze should have a place MD also. Won me many a game vs other T2 decks.
One would think that avoiding competitive results would be simplistic. Until you roll into a fnm with an unplayed deck and promptly get railed by the netdecks who's results you've been advised to avoid.
Think you're quite right. The game is far different than the early part of the millennium.