Im aware that almost everyone has a preference to play either PIF or IGG but I like having both. Sometimes I need to tutor for past in flames but I can't make the red mana that Ill need. I'm actually considering playing two IGG instead. Thing is I'm sitting at 61 cards and not doing to bad but I need to shave it down. Ideas? Please don't be nice, my opponent won't.
The 4 underground sea might be a bit unnecessary. You can go to 2 and have a Badlands for an additional red source for PiF.
I think you want to go to 6 discard spells (4 Duress) and exchange Thoughtseize for Cabal Therapy. You're already running Probe and Duress. Use those two to see what's in their hand, then Cabal Therapy their action away. You won't lose life off your Therapy, whereas you will with your Thoughtseize. The life is really important when we're on the Ad Nauseum plan and are already using Gitaxian Probe.
Actual question time...how many copies are you guys running? It's a really powerful effect that you want early, but I don't think you really want it in multiples. The life gain stacks but the card advantage does not. Drawing multiples isn't the end of the world, but I don't think it's a 4-of regardless.
I've been testing him in my G/R Monsters shell and I run 4. Here's what I currently am planning to play once BNG becomes standard legal.
I think there might be an argument to made for the 2nd Boon Saytr over the 4th Courser, but I'm trying this and will keep an open mind about changing it. It's just so much value when you slam Courser on turn 2 via Mystic and then follow up with the turn 3 Domri that I want to do it all the time. If a land is on top, you can play the land and see whats on top and if you want it (chances are high its a creature). If you don't want it, no biggie - play the four drop in your hand on turn 3. OR - if you see a creature on top, play Domri, snag the creature, then you might see a land and play it off courser. SO MUCH VALUE AND CA IN GREEN AND RED!
What everyone else is saying about Bile Blight and Drown in Sorrow is correct too; since he doesn't die to these mass removal spells, he already has a relevent place in the metagame. This means Mono B will have to use Downfall, Zombie (typically they have to be on the play and we have no T1 ramp) or Devour Flesh with no creatures on board to get rid of Courser. And considering the rest of the G/R Monster deck, do you pull the trigger on Downfall against a 2/4 with even mana parity? Your opponent spent 3 mana and their best spot removal on your 3 mana guy. That's not a bad trade! Even better if I played Courser, saw a land on top, and played my land for turn. I've already gotten a card ahead of my opponent.
This remains to be seen due to the metagame and its evolution, but I believe Mono B won't be playing as many doom blades in the SB because of the options present to them. Drown in Sorrow is better removal against aggro and the devotion decks, and I doubt Mono Black will cut Dark Betrayal due to the mirror. So do you put Doom Blade in over Duress or Erebos and worsen your U/W/x Control matchup? Or try and make do what you have?
I'm sure a Mono-B player can tell me if I'm wrong, but this seems to be a slight problem for them. Having access to all kinds of good removal is a good problem to have, but when metagames switch up, it can mean the Mono-B player is playing the wrong removal for the metagame at any given tournament.
This card is fantastic in testing, specifically in a G/R Monsters shell. Aggro decks get brickwalled by this and Caryatid in the early game, and let you play your fatties like Polukranos or Stormbreath on time (potentially ahead of time with Caryatid) all while gaining you some life.
Against decks like Mono B or Control, you gain some card advantage by improving draws every so often. Also important to note that Bile Blight and Drown in Sorrow can't kill it, Devour Flesh likely won't because of the nature of your deck, meaning that they'll likely have to Hero's Downfall or Doom Blade (SB) to kill it.
And then there's this guy with Domri Rade... its quite possibly the most busted synergy in Standard. Courser into Domri has a high percentage chance of drawing two cards. In a deck with 28 creatures and 23 lands, Odds are high that you can play a land off Courser and find a creature underneath to add to your hand or vice versa. If you do this, you're likely going to find your haymakers to pressure the opponent while still keeping lots of cards in your hand.
All in all, this card is powerful in a vacuum, but even better with some of the cards you get to play with it.
I haven't tested it, but this seems really fun with Archangel of Thune.
Here's my maindeck and my sideboard. I'm posting my MB because you really can't get an effective handle on the SB's effectiveness without seeing what's going on it the main. I'm also new to this Esper, so if I'm missing some important cards please let me know.
I'm going to play a standard event today to test this sideboard plan out. Here are my reasons for each choice.
3 Gainsay - Pretty self explanitory and standard. It's great against mono blue, can be used in control mirrors against blue counters, and is just a solid card. I like 3 because it's so potent in those matchups. I don't want 4 because I want to spread myself out to gain advantages in tougher matchups.
2 Doom Blade - Good removal against anything not black. I'll typically side this in any creature based deck not running black creatures.
1 Shrivel - My spicy tech I'm trying out. I really want to try 2 to increase my odds of drawing it though to see if it's as awesome as I think it will be. What matchup do I want this? W/R or White Weenie of course! By my count, most lists run 16-18 1 toughness creatures. These lists also run boros charm and brave the elements to trump removal. BUT! If I'm correct, Shrivel gets through both Brave the Elements AND Boros Charm. Indestructible means nothing if creatures have 0 toughness, and protection stops the following: targeting (shrivel does not target), enchanting (N/A), damage (-1/-1 is not damage), or blocking (N/A).
2 Sin Collector - Good against control decks as a source of CA while getting information. It seems solid with my anti-control plan being to switch to being the beatdown and using SoP, Blood Baron, and this guy to punish my opponent for siding out most of his removal.
1 Blood Baron of Vizkopa - An extra Blood Baron for mono-black and control. Industry standard; could be two if I'd like to have a better mono-black matchup.
3 Soldier of the Pantheon - Good against those fast aggro decks, specifically G/R using BTE. Gain some life and block all day? Sounds good to me! Also want to use him against control in mirrors.
2 Master of Waves - Spicy Tech #2. I know what the criticism likely will be; without many permanents, this guy is just two 2/1s for 4 mana. I think that against mono-red, that might be worth it. It can effectively act as extra verdicts, blocking things all day and likely killing a creature when the player swings in. And if you have a detention sphere on the field, it's three 2/1s. In my eyes, it's a good source of card advantage and can give you a few turns and take out a few of the mono red player's cards.
1 Pithing Needle - Industry standard. Good card is good.
I plan on playing this tonight no matter what, but please let me know what you think so I can adjust for a bigger tourney on saturday if needed!
I've changed my list to this and went to a local Standard Event. I went 3-0-1 w/ an intentional draw into top 4 for prizes. I'll post match results after laying out the deck.
Round 1 VS Mono Red Aggro (Turtenwald w/ Mogis Fanatic)
Game 1 (2-1)
I'm on the play and have a good hand to pressure him immediately. We trade a few resources but with the help of Smiter and a bigger board presence I get game 1.
SB: +3 Unflinching Courage, +2 Trostani, +2 Druid's Deliverance
-2 Advent of the Wurm, -3 Rootborn Defenses, -2 Selesnya Charm
Game 2
He nut draws on the play and I make a slight play error playing Voice on turn 2 instead of Call of the Conclave. I wanted to enchant with an Unflinching Courage but wanted the 3/3 on the board so it'd be a 5/5 out of mortars range. Since he has a firefist striker he ignores my voice play, but lightning strikes my centaur token because it's a potential blocker. If I had led with the 3/3 I think he ignores it since he can still swing through and play a dude, leaving me the opportunity to enchant my centaur and gain some life.
Game 3
A very fun game for me. This time I stick a Centaur token with Unflinching courage on turn 3, learning from my mistake. I swing in twice to make the score 30 to 10, when he plays fanatic of mogis and has ash zealot to block. I draw my fifth land, attack, and bestow my Boon Saytr to make my token a 9/7 trample lifelink. I win.
Thoughts: As expect, GW is a heavy favorite against the Mono Red deck. Going first is incredibly important, and if I had played my game 2 differently, I think I could have won the match in 2.
Round 2 VS U/W Master of Waves (2-0)
Game 1: I'm on the play and play Soldier into Voice. He's playing tapped lands and I get him to down early. He taps out on T4 for Jace instead of Verdict hoping to stall my board, but I swing into him for 7 plus a Selesnya Charm pump for lethal.
SB: +2 Mistcutter Hydra, +1 Rootborn Defenses, +2 Pithing Needle
-3 Selesnya Charm, -2 Call of the Conclave
Game 2: My opponent is mana screwed but manages to hold my fleecemane/voice tandem with a tidebinder mage. I steadily add a bit more pressure and he detention sphere's my voice. Boon Saytr helps me as he main phases an azorius charm to draw a card, letting play around his counter spell and hit him for lethal when he doesn't draw a 4th land.
Thoughts: I wish the report was more interesting. My opponent mulled to 6 both times and had mana problems both times. While it's nice to know we can steamroll decks that stumble, there was no way to truly test the effectiveness of this deck against U/W Master of Waves when his deck wasn't cooperating with him.
Game 3 VS U/B Control (2-1)
Game 1 - He's on the play and I mull to 5. This game was very uninteresting as he had card advantage and tempo from the start, killed my things, got me to one card in hand with an Ashiok and big Jace milling me. I scooped.
Game 2 - The opposite of game 1 in every way, I lead with my perfect control opener of Experiment One into Voice. I manage to play this one with little incident as my opponent is put under early pressure and has trouble dealing with a live voice. Rootborn wins me the game as I disrupt his removal attempt.
Game 3 - By far the best game of the night. I got double voice, which is ridiculously good against the U/B deck. He stalls with Omenspeaker and Ashiok/Jace AoT, meaning I commit more to the board to deal with his troublesome walkers. I eventually get all the walkers off the board and he has to main phase an opportunity. I draw a pithing needle, attack, then play the needle naming ratchet bomb. The only worthwhile card he drew with his opportunity was ratchet bomb. It's pretty much over from there.
Thoughts: Voice of Resurgence is nuts against U/B but our other cards are a tough sell. Far/Away is better against us when we play tokens, their doom blades cut down our Smiters and Saytrs, the counterspells are just tough to break through. Plus they have access to ratchet bomb in the SB which gives them a decent sweeper effect (their current weakness). If this deck becomes more prevalent, I think Witchstalker should be played in SBs to help the matchup.
Overall - This deck is powerful. Every creature is above the curve in some way and we can protect them and gain card advantage through rootborn. Advent is awesome, Boon Saytr is awesome, and I like the token route of this version. And until the midrange decks start coming to play, this is a great meta choice, as Voice is by far the best card in our deck vs control and aggro.
I like having Smiters as a 3 of. It's still a good card and it's uncounterable ability is relevant. You can tap out on turn 3 for a smiter and feel good about it, even if Boon Saytr is here to stay. Having seven 3 CMC guys that hit for 4 power is really good, and it helps evolve Experiment One.
Unflinching Courage in the MB is a meta call. I wouldn't play it in the main anytime soon with U/W, Esper, Junk Midrange, and Dega rising in popularity. I'm gonna keep it in the SB unless my LGS is mostly mono red aggro.
RG has the big advantage of Mizzium Mortars, but their 2 and 3 drops are nowhere as good as GW, except Boon Satyr, which is also a high-value 3-drop we can use in the deck against them.
The good news is that the BW decks make Doom Blade so much less good it isn't funny. Can't hit any of their creatures with it (thankfully significantly hurting Esper control.)
Personally, I am a believer in Silence in our deck. Cast it during their upkeep turn 3, or if you have abundant creatures, upkeep turn 5, and just stymie them. Let Charm take care of the demon. that one turn can be back-breaking with everything we can run out.
Scavenging Ooze is also good against BW, but not as good versus Dega unless you can get it to 4/4 quickly.
Are you speaking about the midrange version of this deck w/ Archangel or the Aggro version? Because I find that the aggro version is reslient to Thoughtseize because our deck is very redundant, and Lifebane doesn't hit as hard because we play 1 and 2 drops to come online before lifebane hits the field (thought it still hurts). One of the reasons I wanted to play with this deck is because it is good (or at least better) against Thoughtseize than other decks.
Here's a good debate point for discussion: Against other aggro decks like RDW or RG Aggro, is Unflinching Courage or Centaur Healer the better card? Unflinching Courage is great if you stick it to a creature and attack in for repeated lifegain, but Centaur Healer immediately gains you life and is a 3/3 body to boot. They're both at the same CMC so they likely compete for the same SB slot since we've got a pretty good aggro matchup already, so which one should be run over the other?
I dont think an aggro deck is considered a tempo deck. Just slamming down a lot of little guys, with some instants doesnt make it a tempo deck. You did mention very good tempo decks. Delver played a turn 1 Delver and played permission spells like Mana Leak and Mental Misstep. They also play cards that gave them card advantage with Ponder, and cards like Vapor Snag to time walk their opponents. Fae also did the same thing but they had high value cards in Spellstutter Sprite, Bitterblossom, Thoughtseize, Preordain, ect ect.
I think GW is just an aggro deck. It doesnt offer any card advantage or real tempo. I am not saying that its bad by any means, I love the green white aggro archetype, I just dont think it is a tempo deck.
This is more of how I view tempo decks as well. I played UWR Geist last standard season and that was a tempo/midrange deck with removal, counterspells, and basically anything to keep the Geist swinging (I also happen to play it in Modern). But alas, the tempo discussion is for another time.
I'm not sure how we deal with Stormbreath Dragon in the form of removal. It's a 5 drop so we should have our opponents on the ropes by the time he hits play, but we still want answers for it I'm sure. Arbor Colossus could be a good call to stonewall, as is mortars if you splash red. I personally opted for Frontline Medic as it is synergetic with your gameplan of early threats and still lets you bash in without worry.
@Mastersword50
My understanding of Tempo, for my deck, is that I will be able to play cards that are efficient. Prolly not as fast as the r/g aggro decks but I having the advantage in terms of creature(prolly power) vs mana cost. Efficient(Dryad Militant/Soldier of the Pantheon, Loxodon Smiter, Fleecemane Lion, Advent of the Wurm). Sadly, Ed is right, I lack removal/control. That's why I resulted on leaning to Brave the Elements for protection and/or pushing dmg through.
And because of the lack of removal, what do you think of Pit Fight?
I would agree that's a good approach and it's the same exact one that I'm taking. Play a white base, play efficient threats, and end the game as quick as possible.
I'm not sold on Pit Fight. It has potential in our kind of deck because we'll most likely have a creature on board that can fight something, and it will be sizeable. However, when we are in a situation where we either A.) Have a single creature on board and we'd rather creature more board presence or B.) Have no creatures on board, Pit Fight is a poor card and more than likely a dead draw.
If we were to play it, I'd place it in the SB for the matchups where we feel that we'll have a creature in play we can capitalize on.
im not really expirienced with g/w decks, more like a red player. but my brother would like to play g/w. is there a reason why scavenging ooze is in no of these lists? isnt he extremly powerful especialy later in the game as a 2-drop who can instantly become 5/5 or bigger later?
Hello Wrathberry,
The primary reason that Scavenging Ooze isn't in the aggressive version of this deck is because it's a 2/2 on Turn 2 as opposed to a 3/3 like Fleecemane Lion. You want to be hitting your opponent as hard as possible with efficient threats while using your mana each turn with a card that adds to the board. In addition, I believe the best shell for the aggro version is with a white base so you can max the value of your Brave the Elements. The Ooze is green, so that means for the truly aggressive build using White, Scavenging Ooze isn't a card you want as a 3-4 of.
That said, I was actually wondering if we'd want Scooze as a 1 or 2 because of the reasons you state (closer to 1). You don't want him in your opening hand, but if you draw him late against a midrange or control deck, you can quickly get it out of range of burn and have a huge creature.
I will say I think it's a mistake if the midrange Archangel version of the deck isn't running 3-4. The lifegain + counters on your team at instant speed with an Archangel out is far too powerful to ignore, and is the main attraction of playing such a deck.
I chose Blind Obedience over Imposing Sovereign because it cannot be burned when I'm up against red aggro and the extort combos well with the angel.
Is there a place for the green God/Weapon in this deck? I really want the combination of the two but I feel like it's not enough or it's lacking something.
Hmm... How do you envision a tempo approach of W/g going? I always envision tempo as a strategy that wants blue's bounce/counter/tap effects.
If you're playing the midrange version of the deck, then I can see the reasoning with Blind Obedience over Imposing Sovereign. For the aggro version, I'm actually ok with the red player killing my sovereign because they've spent a turn to kill the card without maximizing their board state, meaning I'll be able to cast Loxodon Smiter or Frontline Medic with less chance of them getting burned.
I'm not the biggest fan of Nylea in this deck. Aside from Boon Saytr, you aren't running too many double green cards, meaning it might be harder to turn on devotion. Plus, her static ability is very hit or miss based on the matchup. Her activated ability can be nice against control, making every threat you play hit harder, but I'm not sure it's worth it. Her bow (speculatively) seems like it's good against midrange where you can attack into them and force a trade with deathtouch or just push through damage. But even with the abilities it has, I think you'd rather want something else to cast.
@Novajoe - Thanks for the input. I haven't really seen many mana issues, but I'll be looking at that tonight to make sure I'm not overlooking anything. Precinct Captain might be cut for a 4th Sovereign and the full 4 Selesnya Charm, but we'll see. I like how it pairs with Charm and Heliod's Spear.
I will say I completely forgot Immortal Servitude was a card and am excited at testing it. I was looking for something I could use to combat the control decks running Verdict and that could be the card. Although ideal and potential unrealistic, a situation where they wrath and you have 2 Voice's out who leave behind elemental bodies, you could cast Servitude on your next turn to get the two Voice's back and hit for 8 damage post wrath! Seems pretty good if you can set it up.
I will be running BtE for protection purposes(detention sphere, azorious charm). I think with Boon Satyr and Fleecemane Lion, we can put a lot of pressure in addition to Advent of the Wurm and VoR,though, we really don't have any answer against Sphinx's Revelation.
I'm running Brave the Elements and I'm really leaning on Judge's Familiar or Dryad Militant for my 1 drop. Any suggestion/s? The pro multicolored guy is fine but the Unflinching Courage won't stick on him.
My Deck list:
G/W Midrange
Instant
4 x Brave the Elements
4 x Selesnya Charm
4 x Advent of the Wurm
Land
4 x Selesnya Guildgate
7 x Forest
8 x Plains
4 x Temple Garden
Enchantment
4 x Boon Satyr
3 x Unflinching Courage
Creature
4 x Fleecemane Lion
4 x Voice of Resurgence
2 x Archangel of Thune
4 x Loxodon Smiter
4 x Dryad Militant
Sideboard
2 x Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
2 x Ready // Willing
2 x Ratchet Bomb
2 x Blind Obedience
1 x Unflinching Courage
Sideboard is kind of out of place atm. Not sure what decks will be popping out. I'm expecting Esper Control and Mono Red Aggro.
I'm not sure about the Unflinching Courage in the MB. I can definitely see it in the SB, but if you're expecting Esper Control, playing that maindeck can get you 2 for 1'ed easily or have you drawing dead when you need a creature or some sort of gas.
Also, you seem to be stretched between aggro or midrange and I'd rather go all in on one over the other. Go Archangel w/ Scooze or go all in on the pure aggression.
Dryad Militant is superior to Judge's Familiar because it has the extra point of power, IMO.
And lastly, I think Blind Obedience should be Imposing Sovereign if you desire ETB tapped effects.
On an unrelated note, I have been doing more playtesting and found that Frontline Medic is even more of an all star that I thought. If you're playing the aggro version of this deck, I'm not sure that you win the midrange matchups (especially against RG Aggro Ramp) if you don't have Frontline Medic. Being able to swing in against bigger guys when you simply have more dudes means you push damage through and keep them on the defensive. I even cut a card from my sideboard so if I find myself against a midrange deck I can go to the full 4 copies.
I've also discovered that Big Boros (or R/W Midrange) is one of the toughest matchups for the aggro deck. I tested my deck against Chris Van Meter's list currently on SCG Select and got crushed most of the time. Anger of the Gods is a tough card to beat if you don't get the Brave the Elements, Boros Reckoner can matchup against a fair amount of our 2 drops, and Elspeth is almost always game over for us when they resolve it. Not to mention they play 5 MB one mana removal spells (2 Shock, 3 Chained to the Rocks). To compensate for the tough nature of this matchup, I added 2 MB Selesnya Charm cutting a Precinct Captain and an Imposing Sovereign from the MB, and added 3 Glare of Heresy to help out against problem cards like Boros Reckoner, Elspeth, and Chained to the Rocks. It's also relevant in other matchups so definitely use Glare.
First, thank you for taking the time to review my decklist. I always appreciate help.
The reason I like having two guildgates (it might need to be one) and 7 forest is because though I am a white base, I do need to cast Advent of the Wurm (double green) reliably. Having access to 13 green sources makes that pretty easy. That said, I will test out dropping one forest for another plains based on your recommendation. The guildgates as a two of have not hindered my speed at all so I'm ok with them moving forward. If the meta is more aggressive, I think removing the guildgates is a good call though.
Hear ya Judge's Familiar. Definitely had similar concerns.
Frontline Medic is in my 60 because he's a 3/3 and his battalion ability is good against midrange decks, especially those sporting Boros Reckoner (a huge problem card typically). The curve of this deck is so smooth that you can pretty easily trigger three or more creatures attacking (especially since Voice and Precinct Captain make dudes in some way). In addition, he provides a way to combat Mythic/Dega Midrange's Blood Baron's or Stormbreath Dragons. This is limited testing mind you, but since we are a white base, these two cards are SUCH a problem (especially since Blood Baron gains life). When you have an active Frontline Medic, you can swing into their Blood Baron or Dragon and not lose anyone on your team, allowing you to still push damage through. It's not the best, but outside of the 4 Brave the Elements I'll already be using in that matchup (which might have to be used on removal), it's the only answer I can think of outside of just concession when those cards are played.
I'm surprised no one has given you an answer for Unflinching Courage. I want 4 of them primarily for RDW. The strength of this deck is the consistancy that comes with it's speed, plus we have bigger bodies than most aggressive decks. RDW's strength is it's extremely explosive potential. If they're on the play and they go T1 Cackler, T2 Emissary into Firefist Striker, T3 Dynacharge, that's 14 damage by turn 3. And what happens if they have the nuts and have two BTEs? You need lifegain to offset their aggression and speed. Enter Unflinching Courage. Suit up whatever creature you have out there and start racing them. This works best with Fleecemane Lion since when it has Unflinching Courage, it becomes a 5/5, which is out of Mizzium Mortars range. The scenario below is fairly realistic.
T1 - Cackler (RDW), T1 - Soldier of the Pantheon (W/g)
T2 - Burning Tree + Firefist Striker, no attack. T2 - Fleecemane Lion
T3 - Attack, trigger Firefist targeting Soldier, Dynacharge for 12 damage. (RDW)
T3 - Unflinching Courage targeting Fleecemane Lion. Swing for 5 damage. Life totals are now sitting at 15 to 13 in favor of RDW. RDW player will have 3 cards in hand when their turn begins and W/g will have 4 cards in hand, 5 on their next turn. And you have a 5/5 lifelink, trample.
Unless the RDW player has a way to deal with a 10 point life swing when you attack, you'll win. And if they do, it's typically Boros Reckoner or someone on defense. If you get RDW on the defensive, you're doing something right.
I plan on cutting my spears, maybe Frontline Medic and maybe Advent (4 mana might be too slow against them) to make room for Unflinching Courage and some number of Banisher Priest against RDW.
I'll definitely do some testing with Selesnya Charm though. It's catch all power seems good, especially since it helps you churn out 2 creatures on T4 with the rest of the two drops.
I'm planning on playing the aggro version of this deck when rotation hits. However, I've made it so I'm playing with a white base, using Brave the Elements in the MB. It's SUCH a good card; you protect your guys from Anger of the Gods or any other removal spell for a single mana, AND you can cast it to alpha strike your opponent. Here's the mainboard.
I've been playing around with this deck on deckbuilder and it's good. I've altered the numbers a little bit though, going up to a second Chandra, 4 shocks, and only 2 warleader's helix. I think this deck is well positioned too since people will be shocking themselves and playing thoughtseize - a card that doesn't actually do too much against this deck since they damage themselves to play the card and we have a lot of the same card to draw in our deck.
The 4 underground sea might be a bit unnecessary. You can go to 2 and have a Badlands for an additional red source for PiF.
I think you want to go to 6 discard spells (4 Duress) and exchange Thoughtseize for Cabal Therapy. You're already running Probe and Duress. Use those two to see what's in their hand, then Cabal Therapy their action away. You won't lose life off your Therapy, whereas you will with your Thoughtseize. The life is really important when we're on the Ad Nauseum plan and are already using Gitaxian Probe.
Creatures (29)
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Sylvan Caryatid
1 Boon Saytr
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Xenagos, God of Revels
4 Domri Rade
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
Spells (2)
2 Mizzium Mortars
Lands (23)
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple of Abandon
9 Forest
6 Mountain
4 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Gruul Charm
2 Unravel the AEther
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Plummet
1 Ruric-Thar, the Unbowed
I think this will have great power against the top decks in the format, though the sideboard is still a WIP.
29 Creatures and 23 Lands means only 8 cards in the deck can be turned over to cause Domri and Courser to not hit. I like those CA odds.
I've been testing him in my G/R Monsters shell and I run 4. Here's what I currently am planning to play once BNG becomes standard legal.
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Sylvan Caryatid
1 Boon Saytr
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Xenagos, God of Revels
4 Domri Rade
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
Spells (2)
2 Mizzium Mortars
Lands (23)
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple of Abandon
9 Forest
6 Mountain
I think there might be an argument to made for the 2nd Boon Saytr over the 4th Courser, but I'm trying this and will keep an open mind about changing it. It's just so much value when you slam Courser on turn 2 via Mystic and then follow up with the turn 3 Domri that I want to do it all the time. If a land is on top, you can play the land and see whats on top and if you want it (chances are high its a creature). If you don't want it, no biggie - play the four drop in your hand on turn 3. OR - if you see a creature on top, play Domri, snag the creature, then you might see a land and play it off courser. SO MUCH VALUE AND CA IN GREEN AND RED!
What everyone else is saying about Bile Blight and Drown in Sorrow is correct too; since he doesn't die to these mass removal spells, he already has a relevent place in the metagame. This means Mono B will have to use Downfall, Zombie (typically they have to be on the play and we have no T1 ramp) or Devour Flesh with no creatures on board to get rid of Courser. And considering the rest of the G/R Monster deck, do you pull the trigger on Downfall against a 2/4 with even mana parity? Your opponent spent 3 mana and their best spot removal on your 3 mana guy. That's not a bad trade! Even better if I played Courser, saw a land on top, and played my land for turn. I've already gotten a card ahead of my opponent.
This remains to be seen due to the metagame and its evolution, but I believe Mono B won't be playing as many doom blades in the SB because of the options present to them. Drown in Sorrow is better removal against aggro and the devotion decks, and I doubt Mono Black will cut Dark Betrayal due to the mirror. So do you put Doom Blade in over Duress or Erebos and worsen your U/W/x Control matchup? Or try and make do what you have?
I'm sure a Mono-B player can tell me if I'm wrong, but this seems to be a slight problem for them. Having access to all kinds of good removal is a good problem to have, but when metagames switch up, it can mean the Mono-B player is playing the wrong removal for the metagame at any given tournament.
Against decks like Mono B or Control, you gain some card advantage by improving draws every so often. Also important to note that Bile Blight and Drown in Sorrow can't kill it, Devour Flesh likely won't because of the nature of your deck, meaning that they'll likely have to Hero's Downfall or Doom Blade (SB) to kill it.
And then there's this guy with Domri Rade... its quite possibly the most busted synergy in Standard. Courser into Domri has a high percentage chance of drawing two cards. In a deck with 28 creatures and 23 lands, Odds are high that you can play a land off Courser and find a creature underneath to add to your hand or vice versa. If you do this, you're likely going to find your haymakers to pressure the opponent while still keeping lots of cards in your hand.
All in all, this card is powerful in a vacuum, but even better with some of the cards you get to play with it.
I haven't tested it, but this seems really fun with Archangel of Thune.
Here's my maindeck and my sideboard. I'm posting my MB because you really can't get an effective handle on the SB's effectiveness without seeing what's going on it the main. I'm also new to this Esper, so if I'm missing some important cards please let me know.
2 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1 AEtherling
Spells (25)
4 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Supreme Verdict
4 Detention Sphere
3 Azorius Charm
3 Dissolve
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Divination
2 Thoughtseize
1 Devour Flesh
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Land (27)
4 Hallowed Fountain
3 Watery Grave
3 Godless Shrine
4 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Deceit
5 Island
4 Plains
3 Gainsay
2 Doom Blade
1 Shrivel
2 Sin Collector
1 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
3 Soldier of the Pantheon
2 Master of Waves
1 Pithing Needle
I'm going to play a standard event today to test this sideboard plan out. Here are my reasons for each choice.
3 Gainsay - Pretty self explanitory and standard. It's great against mono blue, can be used in control mirrors against blue counters, and is just a solid card. I like 3 because it's so potent in those matchups. I don't want 4 because I want to spread myself out to gain advantages in tougher matchups.
2 Doom Blade - Good removal against anything not black. I'll typically side this in any creature based deck not running black creatures.
1 Shrivel - My spicy tech I'm trying out. I really want to try 2 to increase my odds of drawing it though to see if it's as awesome as I think it will be. What matchup do I want this? W/R or White Weenie of course! By my count, most lists run 16-18 1 toughness creatures. These lists also run boros charm and brave the elements to trump removal. BUT! If I'm correct, Shrivel gets through both Brave the Elements AND Boros Charm. Indestructible means nothing if creatures have 0 toughness, and protection stops the following: targeting (shrivel does not target), enchanting (N/A), damage (-1/-1 is not damage), or blocking (N/A).
2 Sin Collector - Good against control decks as a source of CA while getting information. It seems solid with my anti-control plan being to switch to being the beatdown and using SoP, Blood Baron, and this guy to punish my opponent for siding out most of his removal.
1 Blood Baron of Vizkopa - An extra Blood Baron for mono-black and control. Industry standard; could be two if I'd like to have a better mono-black matchup.
3 Soldier of the Pantheon - Good against those fast aggro decks, specifically G/R using BTE. Gain some life and block all day? Sounds good to me! Also want to use him against control in mirrors.
2 Master of Waves - Spicy Tech #2. I know what the criticism likely will be; without many permanents, this guy is just two 2/1s for 4 mana. I think that against mono-red, that might be worth it. It can effectively act as extra verdicts, blocking things all day and likely killing a creature when the player swings in. And if you have a detention sphere on the field, it's three 2/1s. In my eyes, it's a good source of card advantage and can give you a few turns and take out a few of the mono red player's cards.
1 Pithing Needle - Industry standard. Good card is good.
I plan on playing this tonight no matter what, but please let me know what you think so I can adjust for a bigger tourney on saturday if needed!
4 Soldier of the Pantheon
4 Experiment One
4 Fleecemane Lion
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Boon Saytr
3 Loxodon Smiter
Spells (14)
4 Selesnya Charm
4 Advent of the Wurm
3 Call of the Conclave
3 Rootborn Defenses
4 Temple Garden
10 Forest
8 Plains
1 Selesnya Guildgate
3 Unflinching Courage
3 Glare of Heresy
2 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
2 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Pithing Needle
2 Druid's Deliverance
1 Rootborn Defenses
Round 1 VS Mono Red Aggro (Turtenwald w/ Mogis Fanatic)
Game 1 (2-1)
I'm on the play and have a good hand to pressure him immediately. We trade a few resources but with the help of Smiter and a bigger board presence I get game 1.
SB: +3 Unflinching Courage, +2 Trostani, +2 Druid's Deliverance
-2 Advent of the Wurm, -3 Rootborn Defenses, -2 Selesnya Charm
Game 2
He nut draws on the play and I make a slight play error playing Voice on turn 2 instead of Call of the Conclave. I wanted to enchant with an Unflinching Courage but wanted the 3/3 on the board so it'd be a 5/5 out of mortars range. Since he has a firefist striker he ignores my voice play, but lightning strikes my centaur token because it's a potential blocker. If I had led with the 3/3 I think he ignores it since he can still swing through and play a dude, leaving me the opportunity to enchant my centaur and gain some life.
Game 3
A very fun game for me. This time I stick a Centaur token with Unflinching courage on turn 3, learning from my mistake. I swing in twice to make the score 30 to 10, when he plays fanatic of mogis and has ash zealot to block. I draw my fifth land, attack, and bestow my Boon Saytr to make my token a 9/7 trample lifelink. I win.
Thoughts: As expect, GW is a heavy favorite against the Mono Red deck. Going first is incredibly important, and if I had played my game 2 differently, I think I could have won the match in 2.
Round 2 VS U/W Master of Waves (2-0)
Game 1: I'm on the play and play Soldier into Voice. He's playing tapped lands and I get him to down early. He taps out on T4 for Jace instead of Verdict hoping to stall my board, but I swing into him for 7 plus a Selesnya Charm pump for lethal.
SB: +2 Mistcutter Hydra, +1 Rootborn Defenses, +2 Pithing Needle
-3 Selesnya Charm, -2 Call of the Conclave
Game 2: My opponent is mana screwed but manages to hold my fleecemane/voice tandem with a tidebinder mage. I steadily add a bit more pressure and he detention sphere's my voice. Boon Saytr helps me as he main phases an azorius charm to draw a card, letting play around his counter spell and hit him for lethal when he doesn't draw a 4th land.
Thoughts: I wish the report was more interesting. My opponent mulled to 6 both times and had mana problems both times. While it's nice to know we can steamroll decks that stumble, there was no way to truly test the effectiveness of this deck against U/W Master of Waves when his deck wasn't cooperating with him.
Game 3 VS U/B Control (2-1)
Game 1 - He's on the play and I mull to 5. This game was very uninteresting as he had card advantage and tempo from the start, killed my things, got me to one card in hand with an Ashiok and big Jace milling me. I scooped.
SB: +2 Pithing Needle, +1 Rootborn -3 Selesnya Charm
Game 2 - The opposite of game 1 in every way, I lead with my perfect control opener of Experiment One into Voice. I manage to play this one with little incident as my opponent is put under early pressure and has trouble dealing with a live voice. Rootborn wins me the game as I disrupt his removal attempt.
Game 3 - By far the best game of the night. I got double voice, which is ridiculously good against the U/B deck. He stalls with Omenspeaker and Ashiok/Jace AoT, meaning I commit more to the board to deal with his troublesome walkers. I eventually get all the walkers off the board and he has to main phase an opportunity. I draw a pithing needle, attack, then play the needle naming ratchet bomb. The only worthwhile card he drew with his opportunity was ratchet bomb. It's pretty much over from there.
Thoughts: Voice of Resurgence is nuts against U/B but our other cards are a tough sell. Far/Away is better against us when we play tokens, their doom blades cut down our Smiters and Saytrs, the counterspells are just tough to break through. Plus they have access to ratchet bomb in the SB which gives them a decent sweeper effect (their current weakness). If this deck becomes more prevalent, I think Witchstalker should be played in SBs to help the matchup.
Overall - This deck is powerful. Every creature is above the curve in some way and we can protect them and gain card advantage through rootborn. Advent is awesome, Boon Saytr is awesome, and I like the token route of this version. And until the midrange decks start coming to play, this is a great meta choice, as Voice is by far the best card in our deck vs control and aggro.
I like having Smiters as a 3 of. It's still a good card and it's uncounterable ability is relevant. You can tap out on turn 3 for a smiter and feel good about it, even if Boon Saytr is here to stay. Having seven 3 CMC guys that hit for 4 power is really good, and it helps evolve Experiment One.
Unflinching Courage in the MB is a meta call. I wouldn't play it in the main anytime soon with U/W, Esper, Junk Midrange, and Dega rising in popularity. I'm gonna keep it in the SB unless my LGS is mostly mono red aggro.
Let me know if you have other questions.
Are you speaking about the midrange version of this deck w/ Archangel or the Aggro version? Because I find that the aggro version is reslient to Thoughtseize because our deck is very redundant, and Lifebane doesn't hit as hard because we play 1 and 2 drops to come online before lifebane hits the field (thought it still hurts). One of the reasons I wanted to play with this deck is because it is good (or at least better) against Thoughtseize than other decks.
This is more of how I view tempo decks as well. I played UWR Geist last standard season and that was a tempo/midrange deck with removal, counterspells, and basically anything to keep the Geist swinging (I also happen to play it in Modern). But alas, the tempo discussion is for another time.
I'm not sure how we deal with Stormbreath Dragon in the form of removal. It's a 5 drop so we should have our opponents on the ropes by the time he hits play, but we still want answers for it I'm sure. Arbor Colossus could be a good call to stonewall, as is mortars if you splash red. I personally opted for Frontline Medic as it is synergetic with your gameplan of early threats and still lets you bash in without worry.
I would agree that's a good approach and it's the same exact one that I'm taking. Play a white base, play efficient threats, and end the game as quick as possible.
I'm not sold on Pit Fight. It has potential in our kind of deck because we'll most likely have a creature on board that can fight something, and it will be sizeable. However, when we are in a situation where we either A.) Have a single creature on board and we'd rather creature more board presence or B.) Have no creatures on board, Pit Fight is a poor card and more than likely a dead draw.
If we were to play it, I'd place it in the SB for the matchups where we feel that we'll have a creature in play we can capitalize on.
Hello Wrathberry,
The primary reason that Scavenging Ooze isn't in the aggressive version of this deck is because it's a 2/2 on Turn 2 as opposed to a 3/3 like Fleecemane Lion. You want to be hitting your opponent as hard as possible with efficient threats while using your mana each turn with a card that adds to the board. In addition, I believe the best shell for the aggro version is with a white base so you can max the value of your Brave the Elements. The Ooze is green, so that means for the truly aggressive build using White, Scavenging Ooze isn't a card you want as a 3-4 of.
That said, I was actually wondering if we'd want Scooze as a 1 or 2 because of the reasons you state (closer to 1). You don't want him in your opening hand, but if you draw him late against a midrange or control deck, you can quickly get it out of range of burn and have a huge creature.
I will say I think it's a mistake if the midrange Archangel version of the deck isn't running 3-4. The lifegain + counters on your team at instant speed with an Archangel out is far too powerful to ignore, and is the main attraction of playing such a deck.
Hmm... How do you envision a tempo approach of W/g going? I always envision tempo as a strategy that wants blue's bounce/counter/tap effects.
If you're playing the midrange version of the deck, then I can see the reasoning with Blind Obedience over Imposing Sovereign. For the aggro version, I'm actually ok with the red player killing my sovereign because they've spent a turn to kill the card without maximizing their board state, meaning I'll be able to cast Loxodon Smiter or Frontline Medic with less chance of them getting burned.
I'm not the biggest fan of Nylea in this deck. Aside from Boon Saytr, you aren't running too many double green cards, meaning it might be harder to turn on devotion. Plus, her static ability is very hit or miss based on the matchup. Her activated ability can be nice against control, making every threat you play hit harder, but I'm not sure it's worth it. Her bow (speculatively) seems like it's good against midrange where you can attack into them and force a trade with deathtouch or just push through damage. But even with the abilities it has, I think you'd rather want something else to cast.
@Novajoe - Thanks for the input. I haven't really seen many mana issues, but I'll be looking at that tonight to make sure I'm not overlooking anything. Precinct Captain might be cut for a 4th Sovereign and the full 4 Selesnya Charm, but we'll see. I like how it pairs with Charm and Heliod's Spear.
I will say I completely forgot Immortal Servitude was a card and am excited at testing it. I was looking for something I could use to combat the control decks running Verdict and that could be the card. Although ideal and potential unrealistic, a situation where they wrath and you have 2 Voice's out who leave behind elemental bodies, you could cast Servitude on your next turn to get the two Voice's back and hit for 8 damage post wrath! Seems pretty good if you can set it up.
I'm not sure about the Unflinching Courage in the MB. I can definitely see it in the SB, but if you're expecting Esper Control, playing that maindeck can get you 2 for 1'ed easily or have you drawing dead when you need a creature or some sort of gas.
Also, you seem to be stretched between aggro or midrange and I'd rather go all in on one over the other. Go Archangel w/ Scooze or go all in on the pure aggression.
Dryad Militant is superior to Judge's Familiar because it has the extra point of power, IMO.
And lastly, I think Blind Obedience should be Imposing Sovereign if you desire ETB tapped effects.
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On an unrelated note, I have been doing more playtesting and found that Frontline Medic is even more of an all star that I thought. If you're playing the aggro version of this deck, I'm not sure that you win the midrange matchups (especially against RG Aggro Ramp) if you don't have Frontline Medic. Being able to swing in against bigger guys when you simply have more dudes means you push damage through and keep them on the defensive. I even cut a card from my sideboard so if I find myself against a midrange deck I can go to the full 4 copies.
I've also discovered that Big Boros (or R/W Midrange) is one of the toughest matchups for the aggro deck. I tested my deck against Chris Van Meter's list currently on SCG Select and got crushed most of the time. Anger of the Gods is a tough card to beat if you don't get the Brave the Elements, Boros Reckoner can matchup against a fair amount of our 2 drops, and Elspeth is almost always game over for us when they resolve it. Not to mention they play 5 MB one mana removal spells (2 Shock, 3 Chained to the Rocks). To compensate for the tough nature of this matchup, I added 2 MB Selesnya Charm cutting a Precinct Captain and an Imposing Sovereign from the MB, and added 3 Glare of Heresy to help out against problem cards like Boros Reckoner, Elspeth, and Chained to the Rocks. It's also relevant in other matchups so definitely use Glare.
Here's my updated list for reference:
4 Soldier of the Pantheon
3 Dryad Militant
4 Fleecemane Lion
3 Precinct Captain
3 Imposing Sovereign
4 Voice of Resurgence
3 Frontline Medic
4 Loxodon Smiter
3 Advent of the Wurm
3 Brave the Elements
2 Selesnya Charm
Artifacts/Enchantments (2)
2 Spear of Heliod
Lands (22)
4 Temple Garden
2 Selesnya Guildgate
10 Plains
6 Forest
3 Unflinching Courage
3 Banisher Priest
3 Rootborn Defenses
3 Glare of Heresy
1 Sundering Growth
1 Brave the Elements
1 Frontline Medic
First, thank you for taking the time to review my decklist. I always appreciate help.
The reason I like having two guildgates (it might need to be one) and 7 forest is because though I am a white base, I do need to cast Advent of the Wurm (double green) reliably. Having access to 13 green sources makes that pretty easy. That said, I will test out dropping one forest for another plains based on your recommendation. The guildgates as a two of have not hindered my speed at all so I'm ok with them moving forward. If the meta is more aggressive, I think removing the guildgates is a good call though.
Hear ya Judge's Familiar. Definitely had similar concerns.
Frontline Medic is in my 60 because he's a 3/3 and his battalion ability is good against midrange decks, especially those sporting Boros Reckoner (a huge problem card typically). The curve of this deck is so smooth that you can pretty easily trigger three or more creatures attacking (especially since Voice and Precinct Captain make dudes in some way). In addition, he provides a way to combat Mythic/Dega Midrange's Blood Baron's or Stormbreath Dragons. This is limited testing mind you, but since we are a white base, these two cards are SUCH a problem (especially since Blood Baron gains life). When you have an active Frontline Medic, you can swing into their Blood Baron or Dragon and not lose anyone on your team, allowing you to still push damage through. It's not the best, but outside of the 4 Brave the Elements I'll already be using in that matchup (which might have to be used on removal), it's the only answer I can think of outside of just concession when those cards are played.
I'm surprised no one has given you an answer for Unflinching Courage. I want 4 of them primarily for RDW. The strength of this deck is the consistancy that comes with it's speed, plus we have bigger bodies than most aggressive decks. RDW's strength is it's extremely explosive potential. If they're on the play and they go T1 Cackler, T2 Emissary into Firefist Striker, T3 Dynacharge, that's 14 damage by turn 3. And what happens if they have the nuts and have two BTEs? You need lifegain to offset their aggression and speed. Enter Unflinching Courage. Suit up whatever creature you have out there and start racing them. This works best with Fleecemane Lion since when it has Unflinching Courage, it becomes a 5/5, which is out of Mizzium Mortars range. The scenario below is fairly realistic.
T1 - Cackler (RDW), T1 - Soldier of the Pantheon (W/g)
T2 - Burning Tree + Firefist Striker, no attack. T2 - Fleecemane Lion
T3 - Attack, trigger Firefist targeting Soldier, Dynacharge for 12 damage. (RDW)
T3 - Unflinching Courage targeting Fleecemane Lion. Swing for 5 damage. Life totals are now sitting at 15 to 13 in favor of RDW. RDW player will have 3 cards in hand when their turn begins and W/g will have 4 cards in hand, 5 on their next turn. And you have a 5/5 lifelink, trample.
Unless the RDW player has a way to deal with a 10 point life swing when you attack, you'll win. And if they do, it's typically Boros Reckoner or someone on defense. If you get RDW on the defensive, you're doing something right.
I plan on cutting my spears, maybe Frontline Medic and maybe Advent (4 mana might be too slow against them) to make room for Unflinching Courage and some number of Banisher Priest against RDW.
I'll definitely do some testing with Selesnya Charm though. It's catch all power seems good, especially since it helps you churn out 2 creatures on T4 with the rest of the two drops.
4 Soldier of the Pantheon
3 Dryad Militant
4 Fleecemane Lion
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Imposing Sovereign
4 Precinct Captain
4 Loxodon Smiter
3 Frontline Medic
3 Advent of the Wurm
3 Brave the Elements
2 Spear of Heliod
Lands (22)
4 Temple Garden
2 Selesnya Guildgate
9 Plains
7 Forest
I know I want Unflinching Courage in the SB as a 4 of, and Banisher Priest and Rootborn Defenses as 3 ofs, (with another Brave the Elements to go to 4 when needed)but the other 4 spots are up for grabs.
Judge's Familiar could be a card against control to slow them down a turn.
Fiendslayer Paladin seems like it might have a place against black/red decks, especially aggro decks.
Selesnya Charm should be in the 75 somewhere considering everything it can do.
If I were to split them up for the last 4 slots, how would you do it? Or would you run different cards?
Here's my take for reference
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Boros Reckoner
Instants/Sorceries (23)
4 Shock
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Molten Birth
2 Warleader's Helix
1 Skullcrack
2 Purphoros, God of the Forge
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
Lands (21)
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
10 Mountain
3 Plains