Took Jund to gameday. I've been playing Reid Duke's recent list from worlds that doesn't have lifebane zombies (the same list Owen Turtenwald just won a TCG 5k with in Chicago), the only change that I made was the sideboard (-1 Barter in Blood -1 Grafdiggers Cage +2 Ruric Thar the Unbowed)
There's a ton of aggro and control and not much midrange or reanimator in my meta so the Zombies actually aren't that great, I tried them at FNM last week and they were actually just awful. If I were to play a 3-drop in my meta I would probably play Nighthawk to hedge against blitz decks. 14 people showed up, I went 4-0 in the swiss and made top 4. The four of us decided to split cause we all knew each other from FNM's, 3 of us went home with 12 packs, and the other just wanted the playmat.
I think that if I went to a larger tournament like and SCG Open I would most likely run at least two zombies in the main deck, and move one of the two Garruk's to the board and cut the Rakdos Keyrune.
I played against Grixis Control, 2x UWR, and then Naya Midrange. The toughest matchup was the Grixis one crazily. He was on the drownyard plan with just tons of removal, and I flooded out terribly game 2, but I was able to barely come out with the win in extra turns via a large wolf run in game 3. Ruric Thar was an all-star all day, I feel like the matchup is 90% in my favor after sideboard against UWR. Boros Reckoner was annoying in the midrange Naya matchup, and I didn't help things in game 2 when I tried to tragic slip a Reckoner after Pillaring a mana dork, not remembering that pillar exiles and doesn't trigger morbid, but a miracle bonfire later it turned out ok.
TLDR, Lifebane Zombie is great, but you really need to pay attention to your meta when considering it. Oh, and Ruric Thar > control.
I can't see much happening with Havoc Festival other than you tapping out to cast it, your opponent Sphinx Revelationing in response for 4-6, and then probably removing the Havoc Festival or just not caring about it thereafter.
Ok so i been playing Naya for about two weeks now and must say the deck is extremely powerful. Just havent decided what direction to go with it yet as there seems to be two choices.
Now i play at several LGS so my meta can be pretty diverse.. with the main LGS i play on fridays beening midrange/bant heavy...
Which version is best and why?
I've played both at my LGS, which is very bant/midrange heavy as well. I found the second version with Angel of Serenity and Borderland Ranger a lot more consistent, and better against Bant especially with the maindecks Garruks. Being able to cast Hellkite can be rough in the second version due to Clifftop Retreat being so bad without two sets of shocklands available to the deck, and on top of that it doesn't play Biorderland Ranger.
He led off with Arbor Elf, into Lotleth Troll, into Predator Ooze. He rancor''d the Troll but I was able to Selesnya Charm it away after he sacrificed a mana dork to it later on. I went Pilgrim, into Smiter, into Huntmaster, into Thragtusk, into Thundermaw, and was able to hold the ground while he just couldn't find an answer to Thundermaw. I eventually finished him off with a Thundermaw aided by Kessig Wolf Run. The only answer to it he had in his deck was ultimate price and he just didn't draw one.
He led off with a turn two Strangleroot Geist which met a Pillar of Flame from myself. I then casted Farseek into Huntmaster, into Thragtusk. I was chunking down his life total until he landed a Predator Ooze which held me up a bit. I landed a Thundermaw but this time it was met quickly with an Ultimate Price. He was at 8 life, myself at 13 due to some hits from the Ooze now having Rancor. I top-decked Sigarda and rode her to victory while chump blocking the Ooze the best I could. I was fairly surprised as to how difficult it was to do anything against the Ooze. After the match he told me that he had copied the list from the TCG Player 50k, and that it had finished in the top 16.
Round Two vs. Bant Control (W: 2-0)
G1:
Not much to say about this game really, he had land and no action. He casted a four mana Jace on turn 5, and used the -2 (to dig for a Supreme Verdict and/or Terminus I assume) and it came up land, land, think twice. I already had a flipped Huntmaster on board along with a Loxodon Smiter, and as I dropped a Cavern, named Dragon, and casted Thundermaw, he scopped up his cards.
sideboarding:
I double mana dorked into a turn 3 Garruk, Primal Hunter which he had no counter for. Turn four I landed a Huntmaster that flipped and then just kept making beasts and held onto everything in my hand. He Supreme Verdicted twice and miracle'd a terminus, and kept dropping one additional threat in addition to Garruk whenever he swept my board and just kept attritioning him with Beasts. I had him at 5 life and he ripped a Detention Sphere, which met a Ray of Revelation at the end of his turn and he picked up his cards when I casted a Resto Angel with him tapped out and a Wolf Run on my side of the board.
Round Three vs. Red Deck Wins (W: 2-1)
G1:
Not much to say really, I won the die roll and turn 2 Smitered into double Thragtusk, into Resto Angel on one of the Thragtusks, he wasn't playing the sledgehammer version with Hellkites so he was just dead.
sideboarding:
He went Stromkirk, into Stromkirk + Cackler. I wasn't able to draw any of my Pillars I boarded in so I quickly fell behind. On turn 3 my Loxodon Smter met a Searing Spear after blocking a Rakdos Cackler. His turn 4 and turn 5 he dropped Hellriders, I tried to stabilize with a Huntmaster on turn 4, but I stalled on land with a Thratusk and Resto Angel in hand. He ended up killing me a few turns later with a Morbid Brimstone Volley which he Reverberated.
G3:
His turn one Noble met a Pillar, as did his turn 2 Ash Zealot. The rest of his hand was burn, as he dispatched my Huntmaster with a Pillar, the Wolf Token with a Pillar, and my Thragtusk with a Searing Spear. He was out of threats though and my Beast token along with a Thundermaw and a Wolf Run finished him off as he flooded out a bit on lands.
Round Four vs. GW Aggro (L: 1-2)
G1:
Not a very eventful game. He played a turn 2 Loxodon Smiter, into a turn 3 Silverblade Pally + Rancor on the Smiter with the help of an Arbor Elf on turn 1, but the swing from his Smiter was met with a Selesnya Charm. I then played a turn 3 Huntmaster, into a turn 4 Thundermaw and he had no answer for the Hellkite.
sideboarding:
I had a really tough time sideboarding in this matchup. I wanted the Pillar of Flames as an answer to Silverblade Paladin, but at the same time I wanted Selesnya Charm because I figured he was on either Wolfir Silverheart, Sublime Archangel, or both, and they are good against Rancor'd targets as is evidenced by game 1. I ended up splitting the difference:
I'm not sure this was correct, and that perhaps I should have shaved some of my crreatures to 3 and ran four of each, but I was afraid of making my deck worse post-board.
G2:
I mulliganed for the first time of the night, I guess the run-goods have to stop at some point. I ended up keeping a 5 card hand of Forest, Clifftop Retreat, Huntmaster, Loxodon Smiter, Cavern of Souls. He kept 7 and went Wolfir Avenger into Silverblade. He Rancor'd the Avenger and my Huntmaster and Smiter both died chump blocking. I stalled on four lands and he ended up pairing up a Wolfir Silverheart with a Thalia and I had no answers.
G3:
He curved out perfectly. Smiter, into Silverblade Pally, into Rancor on the Smiter again. This time I didn't have the Selesnya Charm nor the Pillar for the Smiter. He dropped a Sublime Archangel on turn 5 and I just picked my cards up.
Round Five vs. Four-Color Reanimator (W: 2-0)
G1:
I won the die roll and I turn 2 Smiter'd into a Humtmaster which flipped. He was digging with Mulch and multiple Faithless Lootings for a few turns while chump blocking with a couple of Centaur Healers. I had him at 12, he finally milled an Angel of Serenity along with Unburial Rites, and swept up my board of Smiter, flipped Huntmaster, and Wolf Token, leaving me with just a beast Token from a dead Thragtusk. We traded a few blows and I was down at 15, him at 9. I drew into a Wolf Run, and was holding onto a Thundermaw. I dropped a Loxodon Smiter post combat in addition to my Beast Token after taking him down to 6 with it, hoping to Bait out another Angel and it worked. He attacked with the Angel he already had out taking me down to 10, and casted the second Angel from his hand taking out my Smiter and Token, and putting a Thragtusk from his own Graveyard under it. My Thundermaw came down, tapping the second Angel and I had enough to Wolf run it for 1 and kill him exactly.
I came out strong with a turn 3 Huntmaster, turn 4 Thragtusk, and two Resto Angels after that. He was able to unburial Rites an Angel of Serenity on 2 of my Angels and the Huntmaster to try to stabilize, but I then hardcasted an Angel of my own, sweeping up his Angel and Centaur Healer, and getting back all three of my guys, in addition to a Thragtusk from my graveyard going underneath the Angel. He was stuck on 6 land and I'm not sure if he had another Angel in hand, but he couldn't cast it. He had an Unburial Rites still in the bin but nothing of consequence to use it on. I dropped a Rest in Peace the next turn and he picked his cards up.
Impressions:
I liked the deck, as I normally tend to play Green and White based decks (I had been playing G/W Humans for the three weeks prior to this FNM) I had fooled around with Four-Color Reanimator, Juik Reanimator,and Junk Tokens before this FNM but I found them all pretty underwhelming against aggro.
When I saw this list win SCG, I thought it looked to be pretty solid against everything (and I believe it just top 4'd GP Nagoya as well).
The only issue I had was really was sideboarding against G/W because of the variety of threats they can propose, and a few hiccups with the mana base in terms of casting Thundermaw (which no doubt will be solved when we get Stomping Ground and Sacred Foundry in Gatecrash). Perhaps shaving down on a few slots to get some Borderland Rangers in the mix as I see other Naya lists doing is the way to go for the time being.
As for next week, I'm thinking about playing the Dark Naya list splashing Lingering Souls and Ultimate Price that Glenn Jones played to the top 8 at this weekends SCG. In my testing so far, the mana has actually been a lot better, although it does lack Cavern of Souls.
why most of the RDW decks dont include Vexing Devil as main board...?
Because there's to many ways for people to take advantage of the tempo of the game by getting rid of it on turn 1, and the fact that it is a dead card if you don't cast it on turn 1.
Because there's no answer for it, people have built decks that actually just ignore it. Craterhoof goes over the top, Aggro does enough damage early enough that it doesn't matter, etc.
how is going around it or over the top not an answer?
I don't necessarily think they need to do anything, considering most of the lifegain is creature based and there's plenty of good removal spells in the format, but I was walking around at FNM tonight in between rounds and i saw something pretty silly:
Guy has in play:
3x Rhox Faithmender
1x Trostani
2x Tree of Redemption
some resto angels, thragtusks, and cloudshifts in his graveyard.
I look over at his phone he is using to keep score. He is at 2,289 life, his oppoent is at 69.
A lot of these decks cannot just blindly run main deck caverns.
With the number of 3 color mana bases and excellent utility lands in the format, it still might be incorrect to run cavern, even if you are expecting a lot of counter spells.
The more tap-out creature oriented control lists will probably start running cavern instead of ghost quarter.
Jund cannot run cavern, 4 color reanimator cannot run cavern.
Junk can run a couple, but they lose vault of archangel for the chance to resolve a couple threats.
I run 3 Caverns in my Jund list, it works just fine. Four Color reanimator cannot run them though, I'll give you that, but they have other ways to play around counterspells.
Three U/W tempo builds Top 16'd in SCG Open St. Louis (four if you count UWR midrange). None of them ran Delver, but they're very similar to traditional delver in many sideboard scenarios.
As a side note, only one Jund midranged Top 16'd in the same event. Called shot much?
Tempo is a deck, for the week I guess, but Delver, which is what the OP stated, no longer exists, because Ponder is what made the card Delver of Secrets a broken card.
And don't worry, next weekend everyone will be running Cavern of Souls to push through their big threats, and Midrange of all variety's will continue to dominate the meta.
The Tempo decks such as the one that Adam Prosak is running, rely much more heavily on counter-magic than the Delver Tempo decks from last standard did. He has said it himself on his stream (and in his interview at SCG this weekend), that once people get back to playing Caverns, the tempo deck just won't be strong enough. He made a good choice for this particular weekend though, that's for sure.
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There's a ton of aggro and control and not much midrange or reanimator in my meta so the Zombies actually aren't that great, I tried them at FNM last week and they were actually just awful. If I were to play a 3-drop in my meta I would probably play Nighthawk to hedge against blitz decks. 14 people showed up, I went 4-0 in the swiss and made top 4. The four of us decided to split cause we all knew each other from FNM's, 3 of us went home with 12 packs, and the other just wanted the playmat.
I think that if I went to a larger tournament like and SCG Open I would most likely run at least two zombies in the main deck, and move one of the two Garruk's to the board and cut the Rakdos Keyrune.
I played against Grixis Control, 2x UWR, and then Naya Midrange. The toughest matchup was the Grixis one crazily. He was on the drownyard plan with just tons of removal, and I flooded out terribly game 2, but I was able to barely come out with the win in extra turns via a large wolf run in game 3. Ruric Thar was an all-star all day, I feel like the matchup is 90% in my favor after sideboard against UWR. Boros Reckoner was annoying in the midrange Naya matchup, and I didn't help things in game 2 when I tried to tragic slip a Reckoner after Pillaring a mana dork, not remembering that pillar exiles and doesn't trigger morbid, but a miracle bonfire later it turned out ok.
TLDR, Lifebane Zombie is great, but you really need to pay attention to your meta when considering it. Oh, and Ruric Thar > control.
I've played both at my LGS, which is very bant/midrange heavy as well. I found the second version with Angel of Serenity and Borderland Ranger a lot more consistent, and better against Bant especially with the maindecks Garruks. Being able to cast Hellkite can be rough in the second version due to Clifftop Retreat being so bad without two sets of shocklands available to the deck, and on top of that it doesn't play Biorderland Ranger.
4 Temple Garden
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Clifftop Retreat
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Forest
3 Mountain
2 Kessig Wolf Run
Creatures (24)
4 Restoration Angel
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Thragtusk
4 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Bonfire of the Damned
4 Farseek
4 Selesnya Charm
2 Angel of Serenity
2 Rest in Peace
1 Ray of Revelation
4 Pillar of Flame
2 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Garruk, Relentless
Round One vs. Golgari Aggro (W: 2-0)
G1:
He led off with Arbor Elf, into Lotleth Troll, into Predator Ooze. He rancor''d the Troll but I was able to Selesnya Charm it away after he sacrificed a mana dork to it later on. I went Pilgrim, into Smiter, into Huntmaster, into Thragtusk, into Thundermaw, and was able to hold the ground while he just couldn't find an answer to Thundermaw. I eventually finished him off with a Thundermaw aided by Kessig Wolf Run. The only answer to it he had in his deck was ultimate price and he just didn't draw one.
sideboarding:
-4 Selesnya Charm
+4 Pillar of Flame
-1 Huntmaster of the Fells
-1 Bonfire of the Damned
+2 Sigarda, Host of Herons
G2:
He led off with a turn two Strangleroot Geist which met a Pillar of Flame from myself. I then casted Farseek into Huntmaster, into Thragtusk. I was chunking down his life total until he landed a Predator Ooze which held me up a bit. I landed a Thundermaw but this time it was met quickly with an Ultimate Price. He was at 8 life, myself at 13 due to some hits from the Ooze now having Rancor. I top-decked Sigarda and rode her to victory while chump blocking the Ooze the best I could. I was fairly surprised as to how difficult it was to do anything against the Ooze. After the match he told me that he had copied the list from the TCG Player 50k, and that it had finished in the top 16.
Round Two vs. Bant Control (W: 2-0)
G1:
Not much to say about this game really, he had land and no action. He casted a four mana Jace on turn 5, and used the -2 (to dig for a Supreme Verdict and/or Terminus I assume) and it came up land, land, think twice. I already had a flipped Huntmaster on board along with a Loxodon Smiter, and as I dropped a Cavern, named Dragon, and casted Thundermaw, he scopped up his cards.
sideboarding:
-4 Selesnya Charm
+2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
+2 Garruk Relentless
-2 Bonfire of the Damned
+1 Ray of Revelation
+1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
G2:
I double mana dorked into a turn 3 Garruk, Primal Hunter which he had no counter for. Turn four I landed a Huntmaster that flipped and then just kept making beasts and held onto everything in my hand. He Supreme Verdicted twice and miracle'd a terminus, and kept dropping one additional threat in addition to Garruk whenever he swept my board and just kept attritioning him with Beasts. I had him at 5 life and he ripped a Detention Sphere, which met a Ray of Revelation at the end of his turn and he picked up his cards when I casted a Resto Angel with him tapped out and a Wolf Run on my side of the board.
Round Three vs. Red Deck Wins (W: 2-1)
G1:
Not much to say really, I won the die roll and turn 2 Smitered into double Thragtusk, into Resto Angel on one of the Thragtusks, he wasn't playing the sledgehammer version with Hellkites so he was just dead.
sideboarding:
-4 Selesnya Charm
+4 Pillar of Flame
G2:
He went Stromkirk, into Stromkirk + Cackler. I wasn't able to draw any of my Pillars I boarded in so I quickly fell behind. On turn 3 my Loxodon Smter met a Searing Spear after blocking a Rakdos Cackler. His turn 4 and turn 5 he dropped Hellriders, I tried to stabilize with a Huntmaster on turn 4, but I stalled on land with a Thratusk and Resto Angel in hand. He ended up killing me a few turns later with a Morbid Brimstone Volley which he Reverberated.
G3:
His turn one Noble met a Pillar, as did his turn 2 Ash Zealot. The rest of his hand was burn, as he dispatched my Huntmaster with a Pillar, the Wolf Token with a Pillar, and my Thragtusk with a Searing Spear. He was out of threats though and my Beast token along with a Thundermaw and a Wolf Run finished him off as he flooded out a bit on lands.
Round Four vs. GW Aggro (L: 1-2)
G1:
Not a very eventful game. He played a turn 2 Loxodon Smiter, into a turn 3 Silverblade Pally + Rancor on the Smiter with the help of an Arbor Elf on turn 1, but the swing from his Smiter was met with a Selesnya Charm. I then played a turn 3 Huntmaster, into a turn 4 Thundermaw and he had no answer for the Hellkite.
sideboarding:
I had a really tough time sideboarding in this matchup. I wanted the Pillar of Flames as an answer to Silverblade Paladin, but at the same time I wanted Selesnya Charm because I figured he was on either Wolfir Silverheart, Sublime Archangel, or both, and they are good against Rancor'd targets as is evidenced by game 1. I ended up splitting the difference:
-2 Selesnya Charm
+2 Pillar of Flame
I'm not sure this was correct, and that perhaps I should have shaved some of my crreatures to 3 and ran four of each, but I was afraid of making my deck worse post-board.
G2:
I mulliganed for the first time of the night, I guess the run-goods have to stop at some point. I ended up keeping a 5 card hand of Forest, Clifftop Retreat, Huntmaster, Loxodon Smiter, Cavern of Souls. He kept 7 and went Wolfir Avenger into Silverblade. He Rancor'd the Avenger and my Huntmaster and Smiter both died chump blocking. I stalled on four lands and he ended up pairing up a Wolfir Silverheart with a Thalia and I had no answers.
G3:
He curved out perfectly. Smiter, into Silverblade Pally, into Rancor on the Smiter again. This time I didn't have the Selesnya Charm nor the Pillar for the Smiter. He dropped a Sublime Archangel on turn 5 and I just picked my cards up.
Round Five vs. Four-Color Reanimator (W: 2-0)
G1:
I won the die roll and I turn 2 Smiter'd into a Humtmaster which flipped. He was digging with Mulch and multiple Faithless Lootings for a few turns while chump blocking with a couple of Centaur Healers. I had him at 12, he finally milled an Angel of Serenity along with Unburial Rites, and swept up my board of Smiter, flipped Huntmaster, and Wolf Token, leaving me with just a beast Token from a dead Thragtusk. We traded a few blows and I was down at 15, him at 9. I drew into a Wolf Run, and was holding onto a Thundermaw. I dropped a Loxodon Smiter post combat in addition to my Beast Token after taking him down to 6 with it, hoping to Bait out another Angel and it worked. He attacked with the Angel he already had out taking me down to 10, and casted the second Angel from his hand taking out my Smiter and Token, and putting a Thragtusk from his own Graveyard under it. My Thundermaw came down, tapping the second Angel and I had enough to Wolf run it for 1 and kill him exactly.
sideboarding:
-1 Thragtusk
-1 Huntmaster of the Fells
-1 Loxodon Smiter
-1 Bonfire of the Damned
+2 Rest in Peace
+2 Angel of Serenity
G2:
I came out strong with a turn 3 Huntmaster, turn 4 Thragtusk, and two Resto Angels after that. He was able to unburial Rites an Angel of Serenity on 2 of my Angels and the Huntmaster to try to stabilize, but I then hardcasted an Angel of my own, sweeping up his Angel and Centaur Healer, and getting back all three of my guys, in addition to a Thragtusk from my graveyard going underneath the Angel. He was stuck on 6 land and I'm not sure if he had another Angel in hand, but he couldn't cast it. He had an Unburial Rites still in the bin but nothing of consequence to use it on. I dropped a Rest in Peace the next turn and he picked his cards up.
Impressions:
I liked the deck, as I normally tend to play Green and White based decks (I had been playing G/W Humans for the three weeks prior to this FNM) I had fooled around with Four-Color Reanimator, Juik Reanimator,and Junk Tokens before this FNM but I found them all pretty underwhelming against aggro.
When I saw this list win SCG, I thought it looked to be pretty solid against everything (and I believe it just top 4'd GP Nagoya as well).
The only issue I had was really was sideboarding against G/W because of the variety of threats they can propose, and a few hiccups with the mana base in terms of casting Thundermaw (which no doubt will be solved when we get Stomping Ground and Sacred Foundry in Gatecrash). Perhaps shaving down on a few slots to get some Borderland Rangers in the mix as I see other Naya lists doing is the way to go for the time being.
As for next week, I'm thinking about playing the Dark Naya list splashing Lingering Souls and Ultimate Price that Glenn Jones played to the top 8 at this weekends SCG. In my testing so far, the mana has actually been a lot better, although it does lack Cavern of Souls.
Platform: Cockatrice
I prefer standard currently, but I can test modern and legacy as well.
Because there's to many ways for people to take advantage of the tempo of the game by getting rid of it on turn 1, and the fact that it is a dead card if you don't cast it on turn 1.
how is going around it or over the top not an answer?
I would just build RDW for like 40 bucks and use the rest of the money to invest into shocklands/staples, and trade trade trade.
Guy has in play:
3x Rhox Faithmender
1x Trostani
2x Tree of Redemption
some resto angels, thragtusks, and cloudshifts in his graveyard.
I look over at his phone he is using to keep score. He is at 2,289 life, his oppoent is at 69.
I run 3 Caverns in my Jund list, it works just fine. Four Color reanimator cannot run them though, I'll give you that, but they have other ways to play around counterspells.
Tempo is a deck, for the week I guess, but Delver, which is what the OP stated, no longer exists, because Ponder is what made the card Delver of Secrets a broken card.
And don't worry, next weekend everyone will be running Cavern of Souls to push through their big threats, and Midrange of all variety's will continue to dominate the meta.
The Tempo decks such as the one that Adam Prosak is running, rely much more heavily on counter-magic than the Delver Tempo decks from last standard did. He has said it himself on his stream (and in his interview at SCG this weekend), that once people get back to playing Caverns, the tempo deck just won't be strong enough. He made a good choice for this particular weekend though, that's for sure.