Thanks for all the feedback. I sold a Gaea's Cradle and a Mana Crypt today to my LGS so I have enough store credit to get the remaining cards I need for the deck. Comes out to about $100 for everything. Yeah, Burn is still relatively cheap to play.
Was instructed by the mods to come here for specific card recommendations for this deck.
In short, am thinking of playing this deck again now that it seems to be a lot better, partly due to some new cards. Recently sold my Chain Lightnings due to monetary issues. Also, don't own several of the cards that I am seeing in decklists such as Sulfuric Vortex.
So here's my question. What cards are absolutely must haves in order to run this deck and which ones can be substituted for?
My friends at the Legacy events that I play at every Saturday tell me that burn is actually competitive now? We seem to have about 3 or 4 burn players in our group and for the most part, they do fairly well.
The reason I am asking is because I recently sold my Chained Lightning because I was short on cash and never intended to play burn again as for a long time it really didn't do that well, at least not locally. Now, it's a big part of our meta?
Certainly I can pick up the few cards I might need as the deck is relatively cheap next to other Legacy decks. Just want to know what the "must have" cards in the deck are.
FWIW the Thundermaw / Charm example here is actually card parity, not card advantage, and is actually a tempo advantage for the Charm player.
If that Charm was an Unsummon then you would be correct about it being card disadvantage. But the Charm puts the Hellkite back on top of the deck, which means that its owner has to use another draw (i.e. card) to get it back. Ultimately your Charm has traded 1:1 with that Hellkite in terms of cards, and has traded 2:5 in terms of mana, which is where the tempo edge comes into play.
When you later kill that same Hellkite with a Celestial Flare it is essentially the exact same trade, as you are trading 1:1 with cards and 2:5 with mana.
Even though you are ultimately using two cards to deal with that same Hellkite twice, which feels like card disadvantage, you are actually using two cards to deal with two of your opponent's draws. Which is the same as dealing with two of his cards.
And thus why this whole discussion drives me up a wall. That is the most convoluted explanation of card advantage I've ever heard in 20 years of playing this game. Really? I need a freaking PhD just to follow what the hell you're talking about.
Yes folks, we can nit pick this topic right into the graveyard.
Which is where all of this crap ends up eventually anyway, which makes it all the more fitting.
Un-freaking-believable.
Really? Where did I insult anybody? Where was I looking for a fight? I simply said I didn't understand what he was talking about. Read some of the other posts in that thread calling people out for their opinions.
I was finally hours away from getting rid of my last infraction and I find THIS in my PM Box. If you had asked me to pick out a post I was about to be infracted for, I would have had to guess for a hundred years to come up with this one.
Please, for the love of God, either delete my account already or give me a way to delete it myself. I have had it with the vindictive mods here who want nothing more than to drive me out of this place.
Enough is enough. This is NOT an infractionable post.
I see that Landboy Steve and his sidekick Valarin have already bungled their way into this thread to **** it up with their dogmatic hate of standard and modern, how all the new sets are ruining legacy, and how creatures should be removed from the game as magic was clearly designed with instants and sorceries being the only the way to play the game
Magic is a game about summoning creatures and supplementing them with other spells like enchantments, instants and sorceries
deal
with
it
You are so far off base you're on another planet.
My complaint is that when a set is released, the majority of the cards are not Standard playable if you want to compete at the highest levels. If you think I'm wrong, take any set released in the last 2 years. List all the cards in the set in one column and then list all the cards that got played in the top decks in another.
DMZ was such a bad set that VoR shot up to $60 at one point. No Standard card should EVER be that much money. But it was because most of the set was garbage. Maybe if it was just a rare it wouldn't have been so bad. But the fact that it was a mythic and one of the few playable cards in the set, shot its price through the roof.
That is my problem with Standard. Not that it's creature based or that spells are weak or that it's killing Legacy (it's not) but that there are a handful of cards in each set that are essentially constructed playable with the rest being designed for the limited or casual player.
And you know what? That's really how this game has always been designed. Richard Garfield himself said that he never envisioned players building their own decks from collecting cards. He just figured they'd open up packs and make decks out of whatever they opened. Standard constructed was never a goal for this game.
The difference between now and then is then the power level between the best and worst cards wasn't as great. So you had more playable cards simply because there weren't that many great ones. Cards that were constructed playable then, like Hill Giant or even Shivan Dragon would never see play today because the power creep on the best cards (BTE, VoR, Thrag, etc.) is so off the charts that it makes everything else unplayable even if, compared to cards from years ago, they really aren't that bad.
Magic has turned this game into Yugioh, not so much in that it's creature based but that you have to have the top rares and mythics to win.
That is the problem I have. It has nothing to do with whatever nonsense you're spewing.
How's buying Black Lotuses, and Moxes working out for you?
Edit: Before people tell me those cards are banned, the point I'm making is that Legacy also has staples that are ridiculously expensive, like, ridiculously so, dwarfing even Goyf and Jace. Money sinks are not unique to any one format.
I don't know, don't own 'em. My whole Legacy collection, accounting for over 30 decks, cost me all of a grand. Most of the cards I had from back in the day. Not only that, I can play these decks until hell freezes over without an additional dime spent outside of my weekly entry fee.
If playing only a few formats means you only get to enjoy a narrow portion of the cards that come out, I would have thought the solution would be to play more varied formats (and experience more of the game), rather than cutting back to playing with even less of the cards.
~ Tim
I'm not paying $40 for a card that I have to have in order to put together a competitive Standard deck that a year from now isn't worth a pot to piss in. Standard is a money pit and I'm tired of it.
Aside from Legacy, the only thing I play is Standard constructed.
70% of all cards are not constructed playable. The few that are, many cost a fortune and are almost must haves in order to build a competitive deck.
The game is made for drafting, plain and simple. That's where most of WotC's money comes from next to the casual player base. Because of this, most cards are crap. It is what it is.
I'm slowly pulling out of Standard and going pure Legacy. That way, if by some accident they print a Legacy staple worth getting, I'm only spending money on maybe 1 or 2 cards a year.
Anyhow, banning duals sounds terrible. Not everyone can afford them, so now NO ONE gets to play them? The fact is that they're not overpowered and other people being sad that they don't have a card is no reason to ban said card.
Unfortunately, Legacy is always going to be a battle between the haves and the have nots.
The have nots want the RL gone and all the Legacy staples reprinted.
The haves fall into 3 categories.
1. Those like myself who want the RL gone because it means more growth for the format.
2. Those who don't care either way because they feel Legacy is fine.
3. Those who don't want the RL gone because they don't want to see the price of their "investments" fall.
Personally, I have no sympathy for group 3. This is a game. Not the stock market. Dow Jones is around the corner.
Ironically, as for banned cards and the expensive stuff, the have nots just assume the cards ARE banned if they're not going to be reprinted. The first group of the haves mostly feel the same if it means saving Legacy. The second group, again, doesn't care either way. The third group would pitch a fit if all the expensive cards in Legacy were banned because that would mean the prices would fall.
The point is, we have nothing close to a joint effort in regard to this format. Everybody has their own agenda. And when that happens, nothing gets done. Things just stay the way they are. That's why duals will never be banned nor will they ever be reprinted. And Legacy will just continue its eventually spiral into obscurity. It may take 50 years, but it has to happen. When there is a finite number of cards eventually they will either be lost, destroyed or die with their owners. Maybe passed down to children who have no interest in playing Magic. Who knows? Nobody knows. But without new cards being made, Legacy can't last forever. For all we know, Magic may not last forever. Other games that were popular for a long time eventually died out. It can happen.
In the meantime, the banned list will be governed by what cards are detrimental to the format and nothing else. Otherwise, cards like Candelabra and Moat would have been long added to the list.
FoW in Standard, where combo isn't even close to being viable, sucks. Anybody who doesn't understand that doesn't understand Standard or how bad that card actually is in certain environments. In Modern, different story. The card is viable and will probably make an impact. So you print it in an expansion or core set and immediately ban it in Modern. Problem solved.
Well, if my Goblin Warchiefs arrive from Kearny PO today (they've been sitting there for 2 days now) I'll be playing Dirty Kitty on Saturday. Looks like a fun deck and not too difficult to pilot.
I'm still waiting for Force of Will to be reprinted, which is one of the most important Legacy cards in desperate need of a reprint that isn't on the RL. A $60 uncommon is just insane.
The tempo gained is from making them spend the mana to cast their creature again as well as the additional draw step before it can attack (assuming no haste).
Okay, but in the meantime, you've spent 1 of your own mana to do this and haven't developed your board state at all.
For example.
Their Turn 1 - Island, Delver
Your Turn 1 - Island, pass
Their Turn 2 - reveal instant, flip delver, island, attack, you unsummon. They recast Delver.
Your Turn 2 - Island, cast your own Delver
The board state is exactly as it would have been if you had simply cast Delver on your turn 1. Granted, you're taking the chance that their Delver doesn't flip. But until that happens, there is no difference between those two board states had you chosen either line of play other than they paid 1 more mana than you did to achieve the same state.
Tempo advantage? In this case I'd call it minuscule at best.
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In short, am thinking of playing this deck again now that it seems to be a lot better, partly due to some new cards. Recently sold my Chain Lightnings due to monetary issues. Also, don't own several of the cards that I am seeing in decklists such as Sulfuric Vortex.
So here's my question. What cards are absolutely must haves in order to run this deck and which ones can be substituted for?
Thanks for the assistance.
Is the mostly because of Eidolon of the Great Revel?
What other cards are key to the deck?
The reason I am asking is because I recently sold my Chained Lightning because I was short on cash and never intended to play burn again as for a long time it really didn't do that well, at least not locally. Now, it's a big part of our meta?
Certainly I can pick up the few cards I might need as the deck is relatively cheap next to other Legacy decks. Just want to know what the "must have" cards in the deck are.
Thanks for your help on this one.
Original Post:
[post]10612683[/post]
Really? Where did I insult anybody? Where was I looking for a fight? I simply said I didn't understand what he was talking about. Read some of the other posts in that thread calling people out for their opinions.
I was finally hours away from getting rid of my last infraction and I find THIS in my PM Box. If you had asked me to pick out a post I was about to be infracted for, I would have had to guess for a hundred years to come up with this one.
Please, for the love of God, either delete my account already or give me a way to delete it myself. I have had it with the vindictive mods here who want nothing more than to drive me out of this place.
Enough is enough. This is NOT an infractionable post.
You are so far off base you're on another planet.
My complaint is that when a set is released, the majority of the cards are not Standard playable if you want to compete at the highest levels. If you think I'm wrong, take any set released in the last 2 years. List all the cards in the set in one column and then list all the cards that got played in the top decks in another.
DMZ was such a bad set that VoR shot up to $60 at one point. No Standard card should EVER be that much money. But it was because most of the set was garbage. Maybe if it was just a rare it wouldn't have been so bad. But the fact that it was a mythic and one of the few playable cards in the set, shot its price through the roof.
That is my problem with Standard. Not that it's creature based or that spells are weak or that it's killing Legacy (it's not) but that there are a handful of cards in each set that are essentially constructed playable with the rest being designed for the limited or casual player.
And you know what? That's really how this game has always been designed. Richard Garfield himself said that he never envisioned players building their own decks from collecting cards. He just figured they'd open up packs and make decks out of whatever they opened. Standard constructed was never a goal for this game.
The difference between now and then is then the power level between the best and worst cards wasn't as great. So you had more playable cards simply because there weren't that many great ones. Cards that were constructed playable then, like Hill Giant or even Shivan Dragon would never see play today because the power creep on the best cards (BTE, VoR, Thrag, etc.) is so off the charts that it makes everything else unplayable even if, compared to cards from years ago, they really aren't that bad.
Magic has turned this game into Yugioh, not so much in that it's creature based but that you have to have the top rares and mythics to win.
That is the problem I have. It has nothing to do with whatever nonsense you're spewing.
Yeah, you're probably right. I was just being generous. Some smaller sets are lucky if they have a half dozen playable cards.
It's a pretty sad state of affairs if you ask me.
I don't know, don't own 'em. My whole Legacy collection, accounting for over 30 decks, cost me all of a grand. Most of the cards I had from back in the day. Not only that, I can play these decks until hell freezes over without an additional dime spent outside of my weekly entry fee.
Can't quite say that about Standard can I.
I'm not paying $40 for a card that I have to have in order to put together a competitive Standard deck that a year from now isn't worth a pot to piss in. Standard is a money pit and I'm tired of it.
Aside from Legacy, the only thing I play is Standard constructed.
70% of all cards are not constructed playable. The few that are, many cost a fortune and are almost must haves in order to build a competitive deck.
The game is made for drafting, plain and simple. That's where most of WotC's money comes from next to the casual player base. Because of this, most cards are crap. It is what it is.
I'm slowly pulling out of Standard and going pure Legacy. That way, if by some accident they print a Legacy staple worth getting, I'm only spending money on maybe 1 or 2 cards a year.
Unfortunately, Legacy is always going to be a battle between the haves and the have nots.
The have nots want the RL gone and all the Legacy staples reprinted.
The haves fall into 3 categories.
1. Those like myself who want the RL gone because it means more growth for the format.
2. Those who don't care either way because they feel Legacy is fine.
3. Those who don't want the RL gone because they don't want to see the price of their "investments" fall.
Personally, I have no sympathy for group 3. This is a game. Not the stock market. Dow Jones is around the corner.
Ironically, as for banned cards and the expensive stuff, the have nots just assume the cards ARE banned if they're not going to be reprinted. The first group of the haves mostly feel the same if it means saving Legacy. The second group, again, doesn't care either way. The third group would pitch a fit if all the expensive cards in Legacy were banned because that would mean the prices would fall.
The point is, we have nothing close to a joint effort in regard to this format. Everybody has their own agenda. And when that happens, nothing gets done. Things just stay the way they are. That's why duals will never be banned nor will they ever be reprinted. And Legacy will just continue its eventually spiral into obscurity. It may take 50 years, but it has to happen. When there is a finite number of cards eventually they will either be lost, destroyed or die with their owners. Maybe passed down to children who have no interest in playing Magic. Who knows? Nobody knows. But without new cards being made, Legacy can't last forever. For all we know, Magic may not last forever. Other games that were popular for a long time eventually died out. It can happen.
In the meantime, the banned list will be governed by what cards are detrimental to the format and nothing else. Otherwise, cards like Candelabra and Moat would have been long added to the list.
Okay, but in the meantime, you've spent 1 of your own mana to do this and haven't developed your board state at all.
For example.
Their Turn 1 - Island, Delver
Your Turn 1 - Island, pass
Their Turn 2 - reveal instant, flip delver, island, attack, you unsummon. They recast Delver.
Your Turn 2 - Island, cast your own Delver
The board state is exactly as it would have been if you had simply cast Delver on your turn 1. Granted, you're taking the chance that their Delver doesn't flip. But until that happens, there is no difference between those two board states had you chosen either line of play other than they paid 1 more mana than you did to achieve the same state.
Tempo advantage? In this case I'd call it minuscule at best.