If I understand you correctly, you were stating that we had it, and just went the wrong way. But then you came in voting ZDS, because Zion might not be around the whole time.
What did you talk about last night that makes you want to vote ZDS over Zionite?
I'm a little more sure on Zi atm, and I'd be pushing there if he was here. As for chat, I'll go through that when I go over his in thread case, compare and contrast
...I mean...we have absolute confirmation that one WAS bad. It resulted in a mislynch of Town....that's bad. That you use present tense indicates you somehow disagree that lynching town is/was/will be bad for us.
If we ended up on the "wrong one" why aren't you currently voting for the "right one"? It doesn't matter that Zion will be gone...you vote for the person you feel most confident is scum.
Zi isn't the only scum. If the case wasn't enough Yesterday, it's not going to be magically more effective now with him not here to respond to anything. That's a waste of time
...so the better wagon isn't the wagon you were plenty confident in D1 and have made cases about....its the one for whom you haven't even read yet.
I meant zds is better than flarg. And I read enough of his push over Night to like this vote. Once I read his thread version, if it's better, I'll unvote, but from rhands reaction, it doesn't sound like it is
My plan was to make a case for it to the rest of the players, and try to convince them to move to Z.
Failing that, (and this is the part where everyone just stares at me in disbelief) I was going to propose we CFD Flarg (ideally Tom, but no way I was convincing anyone to follow me in that amount of time).
Yep, that's right: I shot down CFD all Day, only to turn around and advocate it last minute.
Except I didn't get to do that, did I, KC?
I considered making a push back to Zi too, but that's not what I ultimately decided. You making that push wouldn't have mattered, once I settled on my kj read, the Zion wagon was done.
And now flarg is among my top town reads, so I'm not sad at that missed opportunity either
BTW, answer this.
This is different than a "why did you hammer?" question, so the previous answers you gave on the subject don't fit.
It's a "how did you hammer?"
What changed is I talked to him. And I thought he was being insincere and evasive. Between that and reflecting on everything else, I reached a point where I was going to feel worse if he was scum and I let him go than if he was town and mislynched.
I wouldn't have been thrilled if lw hammered after Rhands vote, but then KJ had a chance to get his final thoughts down, I decided I wasn't going to push back off KJ, and at that point it was just delaying the inevitable
Earlier. Like a week ago. I really appreciate Shadow's games because he puts slightly more aggressive deadlines. We should have been to 2-3 wagons a week before deadline. Or someone should have been hardpushing someone else if those two wagons were not satisfactory.
I don't think the wagons were bad, I think we just ended up on the wrong one
Sloth unvoting wouldn't have done anything since he was on the Zion wagon.
So, sloth reviewing wouldn't have done anything either then. He reviews and decides to support KJ wagon -> KJ hammered. He reviews and decides to stay on Zion -> okay, I hammer kj. He reviews and decides to support a cfd -> no thanks, I hammer kj
Cases had been presented, decisions made all around. I'm not apologizing for not dragging my feet
I would have advocated a CFD or Zionite. I wouldn't lynch a claimed Roleblocker.
I'm not not-lynching someone for a RB claim, especially how he handled it
And yet another game of CFD an hour before deadline D1 is exactly what I wasn't waiting around for. That's how you start outing all the PRs D1. KJ did enough damage by himself not pushing Zion
I don’t have a strong read on tubba. I don’t really get where all those tubba is town ideas come from (had that in my cell too), especially with KJ’s town flip.
Oh, thanks, but my fault, I didn't mean to ask you
@sloth (and I guess last too): Can you share anything on Tubba from chat?
You have at least two people who say they're in the midst of catching up or taking a break and coming back. You need to explicitly be told to wait? These weren't hint enough?
If sloth wanted to wait, he would have unvoted when last announced he'd hammer the next vote
KCC what the hell? Why throw a hammer down early? Especially when we have a questionable lurker finally beginning to at least twitch and at least one player talking about how they want to do an ISO on the two wagons.
What do you consider early? Because I'm strongly against the sites current meta of lynches can only happen within 10 mins of deadline. That time is the maximum, not the minimum length. If someone wanted the lynch to wait, they should have said something.
I wanted to see his flip and there was nothing else to do D1
Also, I didn't want someone else to hammer first. If he was scum, I wanted to be able to say I helped lynch him D1. And if town, and he went down because I misread him and didn't defend him, I wanted to own that
Flarg was so pure in our cell chat that I am sure he's town.
I invite everyone to actually click the links in ZDS's case and compare them to what ZDS is saying. There's a lot of exaggerations and smears in there.
ZDS is using busswords like "self-conscious" and "opportunistic" in places where it's totally unwarranted.
I have started on a breakdown of the case, but it's becoming a huge wall and I don't think anyone will read it.
vote ZDS
I haven't read zdss case in thread yet, but the arguments made in our chat were awful. I'm still debating if it's some mix of rusty/overconfident/tunneled or willful ignorance.
Flarg is also one of my strongest townreads after reviewing him last Night
I'd rather lynch Zion, but grape being town moves zds squarely into my lynch pool
@rhand: Can you elaborate at all on Tubba? I don't have a great read on him from the thread
KCC: Well lets try this: How do you usually read me? What do you look for in town KJ that's not here? Because you seem to scumreading me for what is here but is not in other games, which is the opposite of that, so.
I usually read you through your process. Your questions, your theories, your poking. The way you bounce around through your reads isn't always obvious to everyone, especially before you started focusing on cleaning up your presentation, but I can usually follow along with it and track your mindset
I haven't been able to do that here, because you just aren't scum hunting. I waited past potential early game silliness, past you being busy, and it's still not there.
The closest you got was a readlist, where you avoided directly omgusing Tom, but just shaded the rest of your wagon as containing some amount of scum.
You say grape and I are your strongest scum reads, but you're not doing anything with it. Your read on me is just an AtE to make me feel bad for not townreading you. Which, yeah, okay, was pretty effective for a while. And maybe I'm underestimating how much Watchmen affected you, but I don't feel like you believe that read
If I'm wrong, I'm sorry I couldn't get there through whatever the hell it is you think you're doing this game
vote kj
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I'll get there. No way I'm diving into that mess on my phone
And I'm a little excited, from the end of zdss post, it sounds like Rhand is seriously mindmelding me
Yes, for all the reasons in the post you quoted
I'm a little more sure on Zi atm, and I'd be pushing there if he was here. As for chat, I'll go through that when I go over his in thread case, compare and contrast
Zi isn't the only scum. If the case wasn't enough Yesterday, it's not going to be magically more effective now with him not here to respond to anything. That's a waste of time
I meant zds is better than flarg. And I read enough of his push over Night to like this vote. Once I read his thread version, if it's better, I'll unvote, but from rhands reaction, it doesn't sound like it is
I considered making a push back to Zi too, but that's not what I ultimately decided. You making that push wouldn't have mattered, once I settled on my kj read, the Zion wagon was done.
And now flarg is among my top town reads, so I'm not sad at that missed opportunity either
What changed is I talked to him. And I thought he was being insincere and evasive. Between that and reflecting on everything else, I reached a point where I was going to feel worse if he was scum and I let him go than if he was town and mislynched.
I wouldn't have been thrilled if lw hammered after Rhands vote, but then KJ had a chance to get his final thoughts down, I decided I wasn't going to push back off KJ, and at that point it was just delaying the inevitable
If you don't think it had a chance, why would you bother?
Like... a majority?
And somehow, I don't feel worse about my decision
So, sloth reviewing wouldn't have done anything either then. He reviews and decides to support KJ wagon -> KJ hammered. He reviews and decides to stay on Zion -> okay, I hammer kj. He reviews and decides to support a cfd -> no thanks, I hammer kj
Cases had been presented, decisions made all around. I'm not apologizing for not dragging my feet
I'm not not-lynching someone for a RB claim, especially how he handled it
And yet another game of CFD an hour before deadline D1 is exactly what I wasn't waiting around for. That's how you start outing all the PRs D1. KJ did enough damage by himself not pushing Zion
@sloth (and I guess last too): Can you share anything on Tubba from chat?
Up to where? I can do the rest, but I don't want to waste time recasing bits
If sloth wanted to wait, he would have unvoted when last announced he'd hammer the next vote
Gj could catch up just as well over Night
Not in thread, I broke down plenty all Night
Do you want to take half, and I'll tackle the other?
vote zds way better than the other wagon
What do you consider early? Because I'm strongly against the sites current meta of lynches can only happen within 10 mins of deadline. That time is the maximum, not the minimum length. If someone wanted the lynch to wait, they should have said something.
I wanted to see his flip and there was nothing else to do D1
Also, I didn't want someone else to hammer first. If he was scum, I wanted to be able to say I helped lynch him D1. And if town, and he went down because I misread him and didn't defend him, I wanted to own that
I haven't read zdss case in thread yet, but the arguments made in our chat were awful. I'm still debating if it's some mix of rusty/overconfident/tunneled or willful ignorance.
Flarg is also one of my strongest townreads after reviewing him last Night
I'd rather lynch Zion, but grape being town moves zds squarely into my lynch pool
@rhand: Can you elaborate at all on Tubba? I don't have a great read on him from the thread
I usually read you through your process. Your questions, your theories, your poking. The way you bounce around through your reads isn't always obvious to everyone, especially before you started focusing on cleaning up your presentation, but I can usually follow along with it and track your mindset
I haven't been able to do that here, because you just aren't scum hunting. I waited past potential early game silliness, past you being busy, and it's still not there.
The closest you got was a readlist, where you avoided directly omgusing Tom, but just shaded the rest of your wagon as containing some amount of scum.
You say grape and I are your strongest scum reads, but you're not doing anything with it. Your read on me is just an AtE to make me feel bad for not townreading you. Which, yeah, okay, was pretty effective for a while. And maybe I'm underestimating how much Watchmen affected you, but I don't feel like you believe that read
If I'm wrong, I'm sorry I couldn't get there through whatever the hell it is you think you're doing this game
vote kj