Another point is that Ulcerate will often cost you 4 life, not 3. Painland or fetchland first. Unless you play it T2 off a triland or scryland. In which case you might as well use Bile Blight because the whole point of the one black mana cost is to use it early.
It is easy to see why you are all caught up in this turn 1 play nonsense and losing sight of why Ulcerate, despite the life loss, is valuable.
You don't have to compromise your curve to make awkward mana demands with Ulcerate. I do not know how many times I have to say this, but GG, BB and UU set up on turn 3 is not a cake walk and forcing yourself to have BB on turn 2 is going to leave you in situations where you are playing an early Bile Blight to stabilize at the cost of having the correct options open on turn 3, which is a far more pivotal turn for you to be stabilizing.
You also are allowed to turn 2 Sylvan Caryatid into 2 pieces of answers on your turn 3 play, one of them being a 1 mana removal spell. Unless you somehow dumped 4 cards into your graveyard, you are not getting Murderous Cut off this early for 1 mana. Ulcerate let's you play a huge game off a turn 2 Sylvan Caryatid by stacking it alongside any one of the following turn 3 plays: Courser of Kruphix, Sultai Charm, Hero's Downfall, and Dissolve. That is an incredible number of options to have against aggro and midrange alike.
Ulcerate not only helps you keep Courser of Kruphix alive longer in a format that is stacked against it, but it also is not a terrible top deck like Thoughtseize is and if your plan is to keep Courser of Kruphix online for as long as possible, this card let's you use it to block profitably with practically any ground-pounder off the top.
The argument that it is not killing cards like Butcher, Brimaz, Dragon, or Polukranos is not really a completely valid one, considering your list should also be running 9-12 other removal spells to deal with any one of those on top of just using AEtherspouts. We are talking about a 4th of your removal package that doesn't deal with those cards, but deals with practically everything else. Aggro decks are stacking cheap creatures like Monastery Swiftspear or loading up on dorks with things like Hammerhand and Bestow. BB may not seem like a lot to you, but in a format where the creatures are stacking up to allow decks to amount to pretty much 1 creature a turn, even in aggro's case, the lower premium of Ulcerate and it's ability to let you do more with your mana than what the opponent can do with their mana is a pretty big boon even with the loss of 3 life. Shrinking down creatures to make Courser of Kruphix blocks profitable, and even lethal, not only let's you command tempo - but also allows you to foster longevity with one of the best cards in your deck.
You don't have to like the spell I guess, but I find it incredibly interesting how easily it is being dismissed in a deck that needs to optimize it's mana in a lot of different ways in order to be effective in executing a reactive game plan.
C'est la vie. You all should probably also just cut your pain lands and fetch lands as well, might as well preserve your life total as much as possible rather than use it as an effective resource.
Thoughtseize controls the hand, Ulcerate controls the board.
In a deck that can quickly fall behind in board presence, and struggle to keep up once a certain threshold is passed, you want to be controlling the board. If you really do not see the value of Ulcerate, you clearly never played Dismember in Standard.
If you honestly do not believe in play testing a new format to gain any understanding of what the card pool promotes, and you don't care about putting lists together to spike Competitive events, you should not be in the Developing Competitive section.
If I were pushing people out of the thread, I don't think I would be receiving PM's for advice from people as often as I do. If you would like, I can even link you to my previous active threads which are often times the most active threads even without all the banter here and there. I may not always be right on making calls, but I don't make wonky card choices without a level of insight few people actually open up to discuss here. Magic may not be your full time job, but it is a full time past-time for me, if you really want to take what I have with a grain of salt, be my guest - but go crack down on competitive players in a section that isn't for competitive players.
On the discussion of Nissa, Worldwaker, her ability to convert lands in the later game is one of the best things you can actually be doing in a deck in the game of Magic. Many strategies do this in different ways and some are less subtle than others. UWR Midrange did this using Aruelia, the Warleader and Harvest Pyre along with Snapcaster Mage.
The discussion begins about about minute marker 6:27:55 starting with Aurelia, the War Leader and it eventually leads into a discussion on Sphinx's Revelation and the conversion of resources. The discussion goes on a little bit past 6:40:00
While this is about a deck that no longer exists in Standard, it is a lesson that can be universally applied to any format, and any deck. While it is probably more important for Control decks to be doing this, aggro decks have done it in the past as well.
I think this is really a relevant thought given that we have access to Nissa, Worldwaker and the Delve mechanic.
I really like Extractor Demon for matches that are less about attrition and more about racing. You only need to unearth a couple of them to close out a game either before or after spamming Vengevines.
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant is sweet. She allows you to start turning out a zombie engine without having to actually try and run a sac outlet for Bridge from Below, which means in the event you are not sitting on Bridges, you are able to still go crazy with tokens. I am not entirely convinced you need a sac outlet to make Bridge from Below a value card. Spamming Vengevine will often times prompt trades where you can come out with a couple tokens as replacement while you set yourself to recur it again and I have not had much of an issue losing the Bridge because you are often times left with the ability to just go too wide for an opponent to deal with on a swing back in the event you recur Vines.
Much like how Extractor Demon is there for the matches where there is not a lot of attrition, Sedraxis Specter is there for the attrition matches. The evasive body seems to push through a lot of damage to allow Extractor Demon to deal the final blow, and when you chain creatures out, your opponent is often times left spamming removal allowing Specter to finish off their hand pretty quickly.
I am unsure about the Rites package, I think I may cut it for another dredge card, such as a Life from the Loam and a 4th Sidisi. I just stuck it in recently and it seems sweet when you hit it.
Scrying turn 1 with Ulcerate up turn 2 is still better than scrying turn 1, playing Bile Blight turn 2 and throwing your land base out of whack to simply 1 for 1. Few situations are you going to actually get a 2 for 1 this early.
Bile Blight may be the baseline for our new removal options. It's very good and fits in with our tri-land into P Delta scenario pretty well.
Way better than Ulcerate.
You realize you are comparing a Turn 1 removal spell to a removal spell that forces you to make an awkward land drop to accommodate for BB on turn 2 and GGUU on turn 3 right? Especially if you are wanting Embodiment of Spring on turn 1. You are greedy with your mana, incredibly greedy.
What I love about your posts is that you are talking about something with admittedly next to no KTK preparation on your end. It is amusing, but I shouldn't nitpick an FNM player for not testing the format at all.
Im interested in the move away from Vault, I would of thought it would be better than Extinguish in the 75, as it is both faster online and sidesteps the enchantment clause. Thoughts?
Against Monster decks, I want the extra turn it cost me to use Vault. Extinguish all hope seemed like the right choice. I could be wrong though, but with such heavy removal, I can pick off walkers with Downfall then untap and cast EAH.
Kamahl, the other question I have is why you have Ashiok in the sideboard when you chose not to run Villianous Wealth. They both suffer from the same problem: unpredictability. Though SBing him increases his predictability.
Though I have to admit I love having a scream-metal rockstar from the 80's to put on the board. Could this be part of your interest?
He is in the SB for match grinds really. That is about it. He may not even make the cut by the IQ and the 2k this weekend that I am heading to.
I personally have not ran into too many situations where Bile Blight has hit multiple creatures. It is sweet when it happens, but it is usually something that happens later in the game when I could just use Spouts to hit the things that generally matter more at that point if I am looking for more than a 1 for 1. Bile Blight is still a really good removal spell though, I just have not really fit it in as I prefer to just knock out their turn 1 play out of the gates. If it is the Rabblemaster matches you are worried about, pack 4 Drown in Sorrow in the board and you are in pretty good shape.
6 Delve spells has been fine for me. I think I have only had to bottom an Empty the Pits once on a scry because it I used Dig and Cut to zero out my GY to the point where the card was unplayable. Murderous Cut is still playable at these stages of the game even if you are not delving the 4. Dig Through Time is very similar in this regard. 1 out of about 75 games with the current list I posted is really not bad at all.
Development is starting to slow down, which is generally a good sign in testing. The less rapid adjustments are, the more sound the list generally is. I am liking my most recent changes quite a bit. I am undoubtedly going to have SB adjustments once the format rolls out, but in testing, it seems like a good start for the 15.
In my testing, I am convinced that the deck really only has a few viable finishers. Kiora, the Crashing Wave is one of them, but generally such a slow card that I often times struggle to think of her as a finisher. Unless you have already stabilized and have counter/removal back up in some sort of density, just sitting in your hand, then she is generally just -1: draw until she is dead. The exception, being situations where you are able to lock down the board with just her and maybe 1 removal or counter spell. Nissa, Worldwaker is probably the fastest clock we have access to. She is capable of applying immense pressure against aggressive strategies once you hit turn 5 or 6 and against Control she not only provides chunks of damage, but also multiple lines they have to go through to stabilize. My problem with her is in the midrange matches, where she just isn't doing enough. 4/4's can only do so much against cards like Polukranos, World Eater, Stormbreath Dragon, Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker, and Savage Knuckleblade. Midrange is projected to be a pretty common thing in some form of GRX and I am not sure that Nissa is where you want to be. Prognostic Sphinx is a decent finisher, not the fastest but not the slowest either. He provides a good defensive body against the Monster decks and his abilities to boot make him pretty well rounded. Sweepers are really the only reason I have never played this card before, the fact that End Hostilities can be countered makes the Sphinx playable. The other finisher I would include in this list is Empty the Pits. The card can sometimes just be a last ditch effort to push through final damage, of buy you enough time to let Prognostic Sphinx stay on the offensive until you kill an opponent. It does not really need to be cast for much and Sultai Charm is always +2 Delve, which equates to a single token. The later stages you are able to cast it paying both mana and Delve to get you a good amount of tokens. Being a 1 of, you probably do not want to start with it in your opening against black decks. Once cast the game is generally over whether you cast it for 4 tokens or 12 tokens.
I believe those to be the real finishers this deck wants to use, most other options were a bit less reliable. I went with Sphinx because it rounds out the aggro, midrange, and control matches. While Empty the Pits is just late game inevitability for any match since it's instant speed gets around barriers pretty well.
The removal package is pretty sweet. Murderous Cut really is all about card value, and if you think of something like Ulcerate - you get removal that does a good job of chaining you into additional removal, meaning early in the game Ulcerate is worth a creature kill, -3 life and 1 for Murderous Cut. This sort of snowball effect is handy in the aggressive matches where you are able to remove a turn 1 creature, play a Sylvan Caryatid then go into Courser of Kruphix, Hero's Downfall, Dissolve, Sultai Charm, and finally adding Murderous Cut to the list of turn 3 plays against aggro. Additionally, all of these can be your turn 4 play as well. You really want to be doing things in the first 3 turns of this format, and while it may not always be an actual play, but instead a simple scry then pass, more often than not it is going to be some sort of play. We found that Thoughtseize was a card you used to keep your opponent off curve more than anything and if -2 life was not an issue, there is really no reason -3 isn't if it can keep aggro at bay and knock out those aggressive starts that you pretty much just lose to in the monster match.
Development is starting to slow down, which is generally a good sign in testing. The less rapid adjustments are, the more sound the list generally is. I am liking my most recent changes quite a bit. I am undoubtedly going to have SB adjustments once the format rolls out, but in testing, it seems like a good start for the 15.
In my testing, I am convinced that the deck really only has a few viable finishers. Kiora, the Crashing Wave is one of them, but generally such a slow card that I often times struggle to think of her as a finisher. Unless you have already stabilized and have counter/removal back up in some sort of density, just sitting in your hand, then she is generally just -1: draw until she is dead. The exception, being situations where you are able to lock down the board with just her and maybe 1 removal or counter spell. Nissa, Worldwaker is probably the fastest clock we have access to. She is capable of applying immense pressure against aggressive strategies once you hit turn 5 or 6 and against Control she not only provides chunks of damage, but also multiple lines they have to go through to stabilize. My problem with her is in the midrange matches, where she just isn't doing enough. 4/4's can only do so much against cards like Polukranos, World Eater, Stormbreath Dragon, Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker, and Savage Knuckleblade. Midrange is projected to be a pretty common thing in some form of GRX and I am not sure that Nissa is where you want to be. Prognostic Sphinx is a decent finisher, not the fastest but not the slowest either. He provides a good defensive body against the Monster decks and his abilities to boot make him pretty well rounded. Sweepers are really the only reason I have never played this card before, the fact that End Hostilities can be countered makes the Sphinx playable. The other finisher I would include in this list is Empty the Pits. The card can sometimes just be a last ditch effort to push through final damage, of buy you enough time to let Prognostic Sphinx stay on the offensive until you kill an opponent. It does not really need to be cast for much and Sultai Charm is always +2 Delve, which equates to a single token. The later stages you are able to cast it paying both mana and Delve to get you a good amount of tokens. Being a 1 of, you probably do not want to start with it in your opening against black decks. Once cast the game is generally over whether you cast it for 4 tokens or 12 tokens.
I believe those to be the real finishers this deck wants to use, most other options were a bit less reliable. I went with Sphinx because it rounds out the aggro, midrange, and control matches. While Empty the Pits is just late game inevitability for any match since it's instant speed gets around barriers pretty well.
The removal package is pretty sweet. Murderous Cut really is all about card value, and if you think of something like Ulcerate - you get removal that does a good job of chaining you into additional removal, meaning early in the game Ulcerate is worth a creature kill, -3 life and 1 for Murderous Cut. This sort of snowball effect is handy in the aggressive matches where you are able to remove a turn 1 creature, play a Sylvan Caryatid then go into Courser of Kruphix, Hero's Downfall, Dissolve, Sultai Charm, and finally adding Murderous Cut to the list of turn 3 plays against aggro. Additionally, all of these can be your turn 4 play as well. You really want to be doing things in the first 3 turns of this format, and while it may not always be an actual play, but instead a simple scry then pass, more often than not it is going to be some sort of play. We found that Thoughtseize was a card you used to keep your opponent off curve more than anything and if -2 life was not an issue, there is really no reason -3 isn't if it can keep aggro at bay and knock out those aggressive starts that you pretty much just lose to in the monster match.
Too many decks have access to 3 mana sweepers, which are just brutal against the creatures that R and B play. You don't get Brimaz, King of Oreskos, or Butcher of the Horde to get past these removal spells.
There really are not any "top decks", but there is enough information out there to gauge where the meta is going to be next weekend. The internet provides a quick way for people to figure out what decks are doing well for people and what decks are not and you have things building themselves from there. With out group and testing, we have found that a number of decks are good.
BWR Aggro/Midrange is really good. BBD has been pushing this deck pretty hard lately. UWR Control has a really stable game against a ton of decks, even the aggressive strategies. While it seems to be one of those less talked about decks, it is one of the more solid ones we have tested. It had a couple horrible matches though, such as RUG Monsters. RUG Monsters has been dominating our testing sessions. Our list is not running Courser or Caryatid, but on a more aggressive Ascendancy plan.
BUG has just been one of those good decks. It can eek out some wins against RUG Monsters here and there, and some proper tuning should help make the match something I could be excited about playing against. It is also one of those less discussed decks though. A lot of people mention BUG, or that it is going to be good, but a lot of them never have any lists or anything like that. I am not entirely sure how BUG is going to play out it's role, but I would not be surprised to see it take off at the PT out of seemingly nowhere.
I'm curious why you didn't mention results against WBG? In my experience, BUG/WBG matchups have been very close ones.
We have not had a WBG deck that we are as comfortable with as the ones I mentioned. I didn't mention RW Aggro, UWR Tempo, WUB Control, or WGR Midrange for the same reasons, despite being decks we are also working with alongside the previously mentioned ones and B Aggro, and R Aggro.
I really, really hope BUG Control will be a T1 deck. BUG is my favorite color composition and I've been waiting to play with it for quite some time. I also really want to play Kiora, but haven't had the chance yet.
@Kamahl, the Fallen Few questions..
How important is Kiora in your testing? Did you ever consider taking her out, how much work does she do?
It seems like relying on Empty the Pits as a win condition would be vulnerable to board-sweepers game 1 against pure control. How do you feel about this?
What are the current top-decks, which Tier would BUg occupy?
And please post more information from your testing and perhaps your current list, I love to read more of what you have to say.
There really are not any "top decks", but there is enough information out there to gauge where the meta is going to be next weekend. The internet provides a quick way for people to figure out what decks are doing well for people and what decks are not and you have things building themselves from there. With out group and testing, we have found that a number of decks are good.
BWR Aggro/Midrange is really good. BBD has been pushing this deck pretty hard lately. UWR Control has a really stable game against a ton of decks, even the aggressive strategies. While it seems to be one of those less talked about decks, it is one of the more solid ones we have tested. It had a couple horrible matches though, such as RUG Monsters. RUG Monsters has been dominating our testing sessions. Our list is not running Courser or Caryatid, but on a more aggressive Ascendancy plan.
BUG has just been one of those good decks. It can eek out some wins against RUG Monsters here and there, and some proper tuning should help make the match something I could be excited about playing against. It is also one of those less discussed decks though. A lot of people mention BUG, or that it is going to be good, but a lot of them never have any lists or anything like that. I am not entirely sure how BUG is going to play out it's role, but I would not be surprised to see it take off at the PT out of seemingly nowhere.
I've moved Ulcerate into my list after testing. It helps a lot against Mardu decks. If you can keep them to a small board when they land Butcher, you're doing good.
Also, if Villianous Wealth is half as good in standard as it is in sealed, the card will be absolutely bonkers. I'm trying out a 1-of. I may take out Garruk to streamline the deck more with Wealth in it.
Sealed is a lot different. A lot of creatures can just bee good in sealed, where you can also just flip over a lot of mediocre creatures in Constructed. In my testing of BUG, Villainous Wealth is good, but not as good as Empty the Pits. I ran wealth for a while and swapped it out for Empty the Pits and am just finding a lot more value and reliability in the change.
Quote from BBD »
Along those lines, Empty the Pits has been one of the best performing cards I have tested so far. It is perfect for attrition matchups. Frequently, I will draw the card late in the game and just kill my opponent out of nowhere with a mass of marauding zombies. Even a nice solid Empty for three or four is a great midgame value play.The zombies also work nicely with Butcher of the Horde, allowing you to get lifelink when relevant to claw back into a game when you're low on life or giving it haste to finish off your opponent more quickly.
All in all, Empty the Pits has been an all-star. In fact, it has been so good that I am working on decks based solely around abusing that card because I think there's a chance it becomes a huge wrecking force in this format.
I get that BBD is talking about Mardu Midrange in this quote, but he also included it in an Esper Control list, and I would not doubt that he has included in other lists as well. The bottom line is that when you are playing the attrition game, you are not only making your land drops to tap into XXBBBB, but you are also fueling it with exhausted resources such as creature or removal spells.
Quote from JVL »
We can expect aggressive black decks to be tier one, and Empty the Pits could very easily become a powerhouse if the format develops along a certain path.
BBD and JVL are just two players that have opened up about the card and it's potential. There have been other mentions here and there of it and I would not be so quick to dismiss it's power level in a deck that aims to be killing and countering something every turn until it can safely land a hay maker. You have a lot more control over Empty the Pits than you do Villainous Wealth, where you not only have to cast it for X but you have to have cards in that X that are not land and cost X or less.
I eagerly await your recants after you actually play Khans and understand how it impacts Standard, showing you why Ulcerate is is far better than Eye Gouge and Embodiment is utter trash.
See, that's my point. Both of us will be making recants based on a solved format. We're arguing about a hypothetical future.
We're different people and will build different decks. We will likely both have success, too, being that Standard is and has been recently a paper/rock/scissors format. It's not like it used to be, where there's only one good deck. The same can be said for individual cards.
I think you underestimate how quickly the format rolls out in terms of structure these days. While the format is going to evolve for some time after rotation, there is a wealth of information provided to and by players about an up and coming Standard format once spoilers season ends. While things can shift, the basic foundation of the format is for the most part already solved, and when you are rolling into a format where decks in general,are slower, there is even more information about the format available to people.
We know two things that are apparent about the format, anyone who has been playing and working with KTK in the previous weeks will be able to reiterate this with confidence.
The format pushes hard hitting curves (Midrange decks)
Aggro is seeing stronger, slower creatures in it's pool.
That may not seem like a lot of information to you, but it is critical information.
Midrange decks are able to play a fast game and if you look at the color variations that pop up for this archetype, it is evident that the threats are not only dense, but also costly. Something you should glean from this is that these midrange decks are tapping out to deploy threats and their threats are priced enough that they are played 1 at a time during pivotal turns (for control decks) due to mana constraints. This favors 1 for 1 trading.
Aggro decks are slower in how quickly they are able to attack you, but fast in the sense that they are able to deploy their threats in the mid game in multiples. If you look at the aggressive card pool, punching past blockers is made more efficient by mechanics like Raid, Heroic, and the natural capabilities of the color pie for the colors supporting aggressive strategies.
The format is incredibly short of ways to effectively 2 for 1 (or more) decks right now. Outside of limited removal like Drown in Sorrow and Anger of the Gods, there really is not much. If your plan is not to interact with early creatures via removal, or ramp into early threats that are simply better than what other color set ups can do (which is hard for BUG), then you are not positioned very well to deal with the format given the known and accepted information available about the format.
Ulcerate is early interaction. When you are setting up a board for Courser of Kruphix to not only resolve, but also stick around, you need to be dealing with creatures that do not combine well with burn or other combat tricks to beat Courser in Combat. The life loss is not really worse than Thoughtseize and can be made up by Courser of Kruphix, which is more likely to have a longer presence on the board simply by reducing the number of situations you need to block. Fewer creatures for an opponent to go wide with, means fewer opportunities where they are not only connecting, but opening you up to combat where Courser needs to block and may not live. Ulcerate, in a deck with Courser of Kruphix, not only helps support the longevity of the creature, but also gives you the ability to trade Courser in Combat with larger midrange creatures and sometimes even live through it. The longer courser is allowed to stay on the board, the less relevant the -3 life is, and if reducing the board presence of an aggressive player allows you to keep Courser on the field more often, then you are in good shape.
Embodiment of Spring also gives Courser some added longevity by virtue of being able to block instead of Courser. But when it comes to handling midrange beaters, you do not win. You don't get to trade the creature for anything but a land and you simply do not beat the midrange decks in the game of mana acceleration. You just don't. What exactly are you ramping into anyways? Spouts? With the upper curve that red midrange decks now have with both Stormbreath DragonandSarkhan, the Dragonspeaker, Spouts loses a lot of momentum that it previously had and with GR being the premier color options for midrange - I suspect you will see a number of situations where Spouts simply is not what you want to be doing even if you ramped into it. If you had a game ending mana dump like Villainous Wealth, your ramp might actually mean something. But the best this deck can really ramp into is Garruk, Apex Predator and Nissa, Worldwaker and I do not think either of those are really what you want to be dropping in the midrange match. Perhaps Garruk, but even with 2 Caryatid, he gets weaker the earlier you cast him because you have fewer blockers to protect him and you will often find situations where if you -3 him he is dead on a swing back. If you make a token, he often times is just going to have to -3 the following turn to stave off what is more often than not, going to be lethal damage.
Courser of Kruphix suffers from the same issue as Embodiment of Spring in these midrange matches. They are able to go big with such speed that you get very few turns with Courser out before you just have to block or die and the added value is just irrelevant.
Ulcerate at least offers you much more of an edge against Aggro and Midrange by giving you much needed value for cards like Courser of Kruphix, there the value is in the fact that it somehow managed to go unmolested for long enough.
It is easy to see why you are all caught up in this turn 1 play nonsense and losing sight of why Ulcerate, despite the life loss, is valuable.
You don't have to compromise your curve to make awkward mana demands with Ulcerate. I do not know how many times I have to say this, but GG, BB and UU set up on turn 3 is not a cake walk and forcing yourself to have BB on turn 2 is going to leave you in situations where you are playing an early Bile Blight to stabilize at the cost of having the correct options open on turn 3, which is a far more pivotal turn for you to be stabilizing.
You also are allowed to turn 2 Sylvan Caryatid into 2 pieces of answers on your turn 3 play, one of them being a 1 mana removal spell. Unless you somehow dumped 4 cards into your graveyard, you are not getting Murderous Cut off this early for 1 mana. Ulcerate let's you play a huge game off a turn 2 Sylvan Caryatid by stacking it alongside any one of the following turn 3 plays: Courser of Kruphix, Sultai Charm, Hero's Downfall, and Dissolve. That is an incredible number of options to have against aggro and midrange alike.
Ulcerate not only helps you keep Courser of Kruphix alive longer in a format that is stacked against it, but it also is not a terrible top deck like Thoughtseize is and if your plan is to keep Courser of Kruphix online for as long as possible, this card let's you use it to block profitably with practically any ground-pounder off the top.
The argument that it is not killing cards like Butcher, Brimaz, Dragon, or Polukranos is not really a completely valid one, considering your list should also be running 9-12 other removal spells to deal with any one of those on top of just using AEtherspouts. We are talking about a 4th of your removal package that doesn't deal with those cards, but deals with practically everything else. Aggro decks are stacking cheap creatures like Monastery Swiftspear or loading up on dorks with things like Hammerhand and Bestow. BB may not seem like a lot to you, but in a format where the creatures are stacking up to allow decks to amount to pretty much 1 creature a turn, even in aggro's case, the lower premium of Ulcerate and it's ability to let you do more with your mana than what the opponent can do with their mana is a pretty big boon even with the loss of 3 life. Shrinking down creatures to make Courser of Kruphix blocks profitable, and even lethal, not only let's you command tempo - but also allows you to foster longevity with one of the best cards in your deck.
You don't have to like the spell I guess, but I find it incredibly interesting how easily it is being dismissed in a deck that needs to optimize it's mana in a lot of different ways in order to be effective in executing a reactive game plan.
C'est la vie. You all should probably also just cut your pain lands and fetch lands as well, might as well preserve your life total as much as possible rather than use it as an effective resource.
In a deck that can quickly fall behind in board presence, and struggle to keep up once a certain threshold is passed, you want to be controlling the board. If you really do not see the value of Ulcerate, you clearly never played Dismember in Standard.
This is not the section you are looking for.
Here: Standard Deck Creation.
If you honestly do not believe in play testing a new format to gain any understanding of what the card pool promotes, and you don't care about putting lists together to spike Competitive events, you should not be in the Developing Competitive section.
If I were pushing people out of the thread, I don't think I would be receiving PM's for advice from people as often as I do. If you would like, I can even link you to my previous active threads which are often times the most active threads even without all the banter here and there. I may not always be right on making calls, but I don't make wonky card choices without a level of insight few people actually open up to discuss here. Magic may not be your full time job, but it is a full time past-time for me, if you really want to take what I have with a grain of salt, be my guest - but go crack down on competitive players in a section that isn't for competitive players.
On the discussion of Nissa, Worldwaker, her ability to convert lands in the later game is one of the best things you can actually be doing in a deck in the game of Magic. Many strategies do this in different ways and some are less subtle than others. UWR Midrange did this using Aruelia, the Warleader and Harvest Pyre along with Snapcaster Mage.
http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/381299369
The discussion begins about about minute marker 6:27:55 starting with Aurelia, the War Leader and it eventually leads into a discussion on Sphinx's Revelation and the conversion of resources. The discussion goes on a little bit past 6:40:00
While this is about a deck that no longer exists in Standard, it is a lesson that can be universally applied to any format, and any deck. While it is probably more important for Control decks to be doing this, aggro decks have done it in the past as well.
I think this is really a relevant thought given that we have access to Nissa, Worldwaker and the Delve mechanic.
4 Hedron Crab
4 Bloodghast
4 Vengevine
3 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
4 Extractor Demon
2 Skaab Ruinator
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Gravecrawler
3 Sedraxis Specter
Other Spells
3 Bridge from Below
2 Darkblast
1 Unburial Rites
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Godless Shrine
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Darkblast
2 Gnaw to the Bone
1 Unburial Rites
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Spell Pierce
2 Slaughter Pact
3 Disfigure
I really like Extractor Demon for matches that are less about attrition and more about racing. You only need to unearth a couple of them to close out a game either before or after spamming Vengevines.
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant is sweet. She allows you to start turning out a zombie engine without having to actually try and run a sac outlet for Bridge from Below, which means in the event you are not sitting on Bridges, you are able to still go crazy with tokens. I am not entirely convinced you need a sac outlet to make Bridge from Below a value card. Spamming Vengevine will often times prompt trades where you can come out with a couple tokens as replacement while you set yourself to recur it again and I have not had much of an issue losing the Bridge because you are often times left with the ability to just go too wide for an opponent to deal with on a swing back in the event you recur Vines.
Much like how Extractor Demon is there for the matches where there is not a lot of attrition, Sedraxis Specter is there for the attrition matches. The evasive body seems to push through a lot of damage to allow Extractor Demon to deal the final blow, and when you chain creatures out, your opponent is often times left spamming removal allowing Specter to finish off their hand pretty quickly.
I am unsure about the Rites package, I think I may cut it for another dredge card, such as a Life from the Loam and a 4th Sidisi. I just stuck it in recently and it seems sweet when you hit it.
I am light on Dredge cards because I have Hedron Crab and Sidisi, Brood Tyrant alongside the Darkblast.
Been doing well so far, beating out Mono White Soul Sisters, Tron, Pod, and UWR Midrange.
Scrying turn 1 with Ulcerate up turn 2 is still better than scrying turn 1, playing Bile Blight turn 2 and throwing your land base out of whack to simply 1 for 1. Few situations are you going to actually get a 2 for 1 this early.
You realize you are comparing a Turn 1 removal spell to a removal spell that forces you to make an awkward land drop to accommodate for BB on turn 2 and GG UU on turn 3 right? Especially if you are wanting Embodiment of Spring on turn 1. You are greedy with your mana, incredibly greedy.
What I love about your posts is that you are talking about something with admittedly next to no KTK preparation on your end. It is amusing, but I shouldn't nitpick an FNM player for not testing the format at all.
Against Monster decks, I want the extra turn it cost me to use Vault. Extinguish all hope seemed like the right choice. I could be wrong though, but with such heavy removal, I can pick off walkers with Downfall then untap and cast EAH.
He is in the SB for match grinds really. That is about it. He may not even make the cut by the IQ and the 2k this weekend that I am heading to.
6 Delve spells has been fine for me. I think I have only had to bottom an Empty the Pits once on a scry because it I used Dig and Cut to zero out my GY to the point where the card was unplayable. Murderous Cut is still playable at these stages of the game even if you are not delving the 4. Dig Through Time is very similar in this regard. 1 out of about 75 games with the current list I posted is really not bad at all.
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Prognostic Sphinx
Planeswalkers
3 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
Removal
3 Hero's Downfall
4 Sultai Charm
3 Murderous Cut
3 Ulcerate
Disruption
3 Dissolve
3 Ætherspouts
1 Empty the Pits
2 Dig Through Time
Land
3 Temple of Deceit
4 Temple of Malady
3 Temple of Mystery
3 Llanowar Wastes
3 Yavimaya Coast
4 Polluted Delta
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Drown in Sorrow
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Negate
3 Thoughtseize
2 Extinguish All Hope
3 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
In my testing, I am convinced that the deck really only has a few viable finishers. Kiora, the Crashing Wave is one of them, but generally such a slow card that I often times struggle to think of her as a finisher. Unless you have already stabilized and have counter/removal back up in some sort of density, just sitting in your hand, then she is generally just -1: draw until she is dead. The exception, being situations where you are able to lock down the board with just her and maybe 1 removal or counter spell. Nissa, Worldwaker is probably the fastest clock we have access to. She is capable of applying immense pressure against aggressive strategies once you hit turn 5 or 6 and against Control she not only provides chunks of damage, but also multiple lines they have to go through to stabilize. My problem with her is in the midrange matches, where she just isn't doing enough. 4/4's can only do so much against cards like Polukranos, World Eater, Stormbreath Dragon, Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker, and Savage Knuckleblade. Midrange is projected to be a pretty common thing in some form of GRX and I am not sure that Nissa is where you want to be. Prognostic Sphinx is a decent finisher, not the fastest but not the slowest either. He provides a good defensive body against the Monster decks and his abilities to boot make him pretty well rounded. Sweepers are really the only reason I have never played this card before, the fact that End Hostilities can be countered makes the Sphinx playable. The other finisher I would include in this list is Empty the Pits. The card can sometimes just be a last ditch effort to push through final damage, of buy you enough time to let Prognostic Sphinx stay on the offensive until you kill an opponent. It does not really need to be cast for much and Sultai Charm is always +2 Delve, which equates to a single token. The later stages you are able to cast it paying both mana and Delve to get you a good amount of tokens. Being a 1 of, you probably do not want to start with it in your opening against black decks. Once cast the game is generally over whether you cast it for 4 tokens or 12 tokens.
I believe those to be the real finishers this deck wants to use, most other options were a bit less reliable. I went with Sphinx because it rounds out the aggro, midrange, and control matches. While Empty the Pits is just late game inevitability for any match since it's instant speed gets around barriers pretty well.
The removal package is pretty sweet. Murderous Cut really is all about card value, and if you think of something like Ulcerate - you get removal that does a good job of chaining you into additional removal, meaning early in the game Ulcerate is worth a creature kill, -3 life and 1 for Murderous Cut. This sort of snowball effect is handy in the aggressive matches where you are able to remove a turn 1 creature, play a Sylvan Caryatid then go into Courser of Kruphix, Hero's Downfall, Dissolve, Sultai Charm, and finally adding Murderous Cut to the list of turn 3 plays against aggro. Additionally, all of these can be your turn 4 play as well. You really want to be doing things in the first 3 turns of this format, and while it may not always be an actual play, but instead a simple scry then pass, more often than not it is going to be some sort of play. We found that Thoughtseize was a card you used to keep your opponent off curve more than anything and if -2 life was not an issue, there is really no reason -3 isn't if it can keep aggro at bay and knock out those aggressive starts that you pretty much just lose to in the monster match.
We have not had a WBG deck that we are as comfortable with as the ones I mentioned. I didn't mention RW Aggro, UWR Tempo, WUB Control, or WGR Midrange for the same reasons, despite being decks we are also working with alongside the previously mentioned ones and B Aggro, and R Aggro.
There really are not any "top decks", but there is enough information out there to gauge where the meta is going to be next weekend. The internet provides a quick way for people to figure out what decks are doing well for people and what decks are not and you have things building themselves from there. With out group and testing, we have found that a number of decks are good.
BWR Aggro/Midrange is really good. BBD has been pushing this deck pretty hard lately.
UWR Control has a really stable game against a ton of decks, even the aggressive strategies. While it seems to be one of those less talked about decks, it is one of the more solid ones we have tested. It had a couple horrible matches though, such as RUG Monsters.
RUG Monsters has been dominating our testing sessions. Our list is not running Courser or Caryatid, but on a more aggressive Ascendancy plan.
BUG has just been one of those good decks. It can eek out some wins against RUG Monsters here and there, and some proper tuning should help make the match something I could be excited about playing against. It is also one of those less discussed decks though. A lot of people mention BUG, or that it is going to be good, but a lot of them never have any lists or anything like that. I am not entirely sure how BUG is going to play out it's role, but I would not be surprised to see it take off at the PT out of seemingly nowhere.
Sealed is a lot different. A lot of creatures can just bee good in sealed, where you can also just flip over a lot of mediocre creatures in Constructed. In my testing of BUG, Villainous Wealth is good, but not as good as Empty the Pits. I ran wealth for a while and swapped it out for Empty the Pits and am just finding a lot more value and reliability in the change.
I get that BBD is talking about Mardu Midrange in this quote, but he also included it in an Esper Control list, and I would not doubt that he has included in other lists as well. The bottom line is that when you are playing the attrition game, you are not only making your land drops to tap into XXBBBB, but you are also fueling it with exhausted resources such as creature or removal spells.
BBD and JVL are just two players that have opened up about the card and it's potential. There have been other mentions here and there of it and I would not be so quick to dismiss it's power level in a deck that aims to be killing and countering something every turn until it can safely land a hay maker. You have a lot more control over Empty the Pits than you do Villainous Wealth, where you not only have to cast it for X but you have to have cards in that X that are not land and cost X or less.
I think you underestimate how quickly the format rolls out in terms of structure these days. While the format is going to evolve for some time after rotation, there is a wealth of information provided to and by players about an up and coming Standard format once spoilers season ends. While things can shift, the basic foundation of the format is for the most part already solved, and when you are rolling into a format where decks in general,are slower, there is even more information about the format available to people.
We know two things that are apparent about the format, anyone who has been playing and working with KTK in the previous weeks will be able to reiterate this with confidence.
You don't have to look very hard to see that the format is centered around aggro decks, and the midrange decks that are deploying threats via Elvish Mystic, Sylvan Caryatid, Courser of Kruphix, and Rattleclaw Mystic.
That may not seem like a lot of information to you, but it is critical information.
Midrange decks are able to play a fast game and if you look at the color variations that pop up for this archetype, it is evident that the threats are not only dense, but also costly. Something you should glean from this is that these midrange decks are tapping out to deploy threats and their threats are priced enough that they are played 1 at a time during pivotal turns (for control decks) due to mana constraints. This favors 1 for 1 trading.
Aggro decks are slower in how quickly they are able to attack you, but fast in the sense that they are able to deploy their threats in the mid game in multiples. If you look at the aggressive card pool, punching past blockers is made more efficient by mechanics like Raid, Heroic, and the natural capabilities of the color pie for the colors supporting aggressive strategies.
The format is incredibly short of ways to effectively 2 for 1 (or more) decks right now. Outside of limited removal like Drown in Sorrow and Anger of the Gods, there really is not much. If your plan is not to interact with early creatures via removal, or ramp into early threats that are simply better than what other color set ups can do (which is hard for BUG), then you are not positioned very well to deal with the format given the known and accepted information available about the format.
So how does this relate to Ulcerate and Embodiment of Spring you ask?
Ulcerate is early interaction. When you are setting up a board for Courser of Kruphix to not only resolve, but also stick around, you need to be dealing with creatures that do not combine well with burn or other combat tricks to beat Courser in Combat. The life loss is not really worse than Thoughtseize and can be made up by Courser of Kruphix, which is more likely to have a longer presence on the board simply by reducing the number of situations you need to block. Fewer creatures for an opponent to go wide with, means fewer opportunities where they are not only connecting, but opening you up to combat where Courser needs to block and may not live. Ulcerate, in a deck with Courser of Kruphix, not only helps support the longevity of the creature, but also gives you the ability to trade Courser in Combat with larger midrange creatures and sometimes even live through it. The longer courser is allowed to stay on the board, the less relevant the -3 life is, and if reducing the board presence of an aggressive player allows you to keep Courser on the field more often, then you are in good shape.
Embodiment of Spring also gives Courser some added longevity by virtue of being able to block instead of Courser. But when it comes to handling midrange beaters, you do not win. You don't get to trade the creature for anything but a land and you simply do not beat the midrange decks in the game of mana acceleration. You just don't. What exactly are you ramping into anyways? Spouts? With the upper curve that red midrange decks now have with both Stormbreath Dragon and Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker, Spouts loses a lot of momentum that it previously had and with GR being the premier color options for midrange - I suspect you will see a number of situations where Spouts simply is not what you want to be doing even if you ramped into it. If you had a game ending mana dump like Villainous Wealth, your ramp might actually mean something. But the best this deck can really ramp into is Garruk, Apex Predator and Nissa, Worldwaker and I do not think either of those are really what you want to be dropping in the midrange match. Perhaps Garruk, but even with 2 Caryatid, he gets weaker the earlier you cast him because you have fewer blockers to protect him and you will often find situations where if you -3 him he is dead on a swing back. If you make a token, he often times is just going to have to -3 the following turn to stave off what is more often than not, going to be lethal damage.
Courser of Kruphix suffers from the same issue as Embodiment of Spring in these midrange matches. They are able to go big with such speed that you get very few turns with Courser out before you just have to block or die and the added value is just irrelevant.
Ulcerate at least offers you much more of an edge against Aggro and Midrange by giving you much needed value for cards like Courser of Kruphix, there the value is in the fact that it somehow managed to go unmolested for long enough.