It's strong in limited because removal is less consistent and harder to come by, especially for certain color combinations. Most Standard decks have a better removal suite to fall back on.
Niv at least can survive a lot of the cheap burn and Mizzium Mortars.
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I mean, think about it - resource denial works. It always has. And what is your opponents biggest, most important resource? His turn.
I think America control has great tools to be very powerful. I'm just struggling to see what their best finisher is at the moment. All the creatures it has access to are great, but not very sticky. They're all very subject to a wide range of removal, basically. Nothing is indestructible or hexproof.
Five color decks relying on Chromatic Lantern will inevitably exist, but I feel like they may very well be too clunky to compete with all the aggro, especially since they're liable to fall apart if they can't keep lantern on the table.
I actually don't think 4CC or 5CC needs Lantern to be viable. I think these decks would want to use a lot of sweeps and Keyrunes, which function like mana fixing, acceleration and manlands in these decks. In testing at least, I've had no mana problems so far.
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I mean, think about it - resource denial works. It always has. And what is your opponents biggest, most important resource? His turn.
I don't think you'd use Scavenge to juice either the troll or pack rat tokens, but it helps you get more value out of your discards while preparing for a recovery when they clear your threats.
And Goliath/Mangler/Slitherhead are all respectable threats on their own when Rancor'd.
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I mean, think about it - resource denial works. It always has. And what is your opponents biggest, most important resource? His turn.
My main issue with it has to do with tempo. You don't get the Detain effect going until your next upkeep. And being tapped out as they untap into turn 5 is really, really scary.
Also, it doesn't work well against Hasted threats like Zealous Conscripts or Thundermaw Hellkite.
I definitely see the value in forcing them to overcommit into sweeps, but it just seems hard to get going in practice.
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I mean, think about it - resource denial works. It always has. And what is your opponents biggest, most important resource? His turn.
His -3 could be very strong with Dungrove Elders. They're Hexproof which makes them harder to remove during your turn, and it turns his -3 into "Draw cards equal to the number of Forests you control."
Also, it's good with Thrun.
Angelic Destiny's art is awesome.
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I mean, think about it - resource denial works. It always has. And what is your opponents biggest, most important resource? His turn.
I really like the new creature Spellskite in this deck.
His ability is very affordable (1 blue mana or 2 life) to retarget a spell or ability to him. This means Lightning Bolts, JTMS -1 Unsummons, Go For The Throat (fizzles), Doom Blade, etc. I believe you can also redirect an opponent's equipment attach to your Spellskite, though it doesn't steal the equipment - it just fizzles the attempt.
He's a 2 play, which curves nicely into Deceiver Exarch and Splinter Twin.
Basically once he hits the board, they have to really spend some cards (and the right cards at that) to keep your Exarch combo from going off.
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I mean, think about it - resource denial works. It always has. And what is your opponents biggest, most important resource? His turn.
Choking Fumes. At worst, it effectively slowed things down by a few turns. Often it was efficient removal. More often still, it completely blew out the game in my favor.
Gore Vassal was surprisingly strong for me also. I just always got good mileage out of it, saving a lot of tempo without giving up card advantage.
Lastly, Strandwalker surprised me. I thought it would be too costly, but it did a great job of stopping aggro cold.
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I mean, think about it - resource denial works. It always has. And what is your opponents biggest, most important resource? His turn.
On a completely different note, cards I'd like to add to the list would be:
Venser, the Sojourner - I personally don't think this guy sees enough play. Decks are finally starting to break him with ETB triggers, but he's absolutely amazing.
Renegade Doppelganger - Really useful. In my G/U ramp, I've found that it speeds up my plays a lot. I can drop a birds of paradise without losing any tempo at all. Or, I can drop a Pelakka Wurm or a Wurmcoil Engine (Uh huh, I run both =]) and attack that turn.
Infiltration Lens - Your opponent must make a decision when blocking. Do I block and have him draw cards? Or take the incoming 6 damage.
Sadistic Sacrament - An absolutely amazing card, you look through your opponents deck. If they have say, One Gaea's Revenge, and two Jace, the Mind Sculptors, then you can grab both. Then you can see what's coming that's dangerous. It's because of this card that I was able to beat Eldrazi Green Game one. If I don't see it on my turn 3, those Eldrazi Titans are going to beat my face in.
Dread Statuary - Yes, The other manlands are far superior and Would definitely see more play over this guy, but in any mono color strategy, this is at least a 3 of. Manlands are still manlands. And it still has 4 power. A great card for mono-color.
Leatherback Baloth - It's a shame this guy doesn't see much play, He's an absolutely amazing card, Red can't handle him, Blue doesn't like him, Green wants to outrace him, White trembles slightly, Black. . . well. . . Black kills him instantly (He's a lightning rod for that. . . )
Survival Cache - Used in Some Soul Sisters decks before it left standard. But, it's amazing card advantage with survivability. I recommend it solely because it has rebound (If it didn't, it probably wouldn't be playable)
Venser's definitely cool but it doesn't seem like there's a deck he works in just yet. Incremental card advantage from bouncing things with ETB triggers is nice and all until you get blown up by Valakut. Valakut Ramp does not care about your card advantage unless you have exactly answered its 3-4 bombs while also disarming Valakut.
Renegade Doppleganger is also fun, but it's inconsistent, which is usually a death blow for Standard.
Equipment needs to outright win you the game in this standard environment, and Infiltration Lens just doesn't. Plus, you rarely ever want to give your opponent options with your mechanics, because they'll always pick the least useful option for you.
I also like Sad Sac, Dread Statuary and Leatherback Baloth in their respective decks.
Survival Cache... first and foremost, lifegain means very little in this meta unless you can gain a LOT of it... like an additional 20+ life in short order. With that in mind, you're paying 3 mana to possibly get one net card of advantage next turn. That's both slow and expensive.
Additionally, the decks you'd want to gain life against can probably deny you the card draw. It just doesn't work.
Royal Assassin is still unplayed because again, it gives your opponent the choice of whether or not they want to lose their creature or wait until they can remove the assassin.
If you want to force removal on their part, there are better cards to do it. If you want to guarantee removal on your part, there are better cards to do it.
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I mean, think about it - resource denial works. It always has. And what is your opponents biggest, most important resource? His turn.
The problem I see with equipment strategies at the moment is that they take too long to kill or cripple the opponent, and they're very fragile.
Weenies are cheap and quick, but weak. Equipment is beefy, but also expensive, slow and fragile.
Put the two together, and you'd expect that the pros would cancel out the cons right? Actually, the problems compound. And then you get very little of the benefits.
Tapping to equip in this meta is the equivalent of a "Hail Mary" pass... except you're throwing it to your weakest player, and you're only aiming for the 50 yard line. If he bolts your creature in response, you literally lose the game.
I understand the mentality of adding the stoneforge+equipment suite to your deck. You say to yourself, "Now, all of my cheap creatures can potentially win me the game! And it'll be consistent!"
What you're actually saying is "Now, I'll consistently slow down/dilute my weenie gameplan and make it vulnerable to spot removal in addition to sweepers."
The only equipment that can immediately win you the game is an early Argentum Armor, which is why WW Quest is dangerous. Equipment on a few infectors works, too. And still both of these strategies can lose to a lightning bolt in response.
The main problem is that the playable equipment of previous years (that wasn't Skullclamp) either provided efficient card advantage onto already decent creatures, or it could actually buffer you against losing... all while pushing the ball forward.
Right now, equipment can't buffer you against getting blown-up by Valakut. You can easily take 12-18 points of damage in one turn from Valakut by the time your equipment would normally be online and making a difference. Equipment can't buffer you against being alpha struck by plant tokens, either. And it has a lot to get through to even resolve and stick against UB Control.
It seems unfair to break apart the equip strategy into it's components and ask "does this card win me the game? how about this one?" because few other cards pass this test. However, it's necessary in this meta because you are going up against a deadly consistent 5 to 7 turn clock that will absolutely kill you.
Your strategy needs to consistently win you the game in 5-7 turns (despite removal coming your way), or it needs to be prepared to answer 3-4 killer threats in a row WHILE also disarming the inevitable Valakut win.
This is similar to why other midrange/Rock style decks don't work at the moment. If your plan is to play efficient/versatile threats, remove threats efficiently and generate some card advantage, you're probably going to get blown up on turns 5-7.
Even if your strategy somehow you got 2-3 cards deeper into your deck than Valakut did (and it probably didn't), you may still just lose. Because the cards you eventually put down on the table weren't good enough, or you didn't get to the right combination of removal while also disarming the Valakuts.
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Quote from Kaevyn »
I mean, think about it - resource denial works. It always has. And what is your opponents biggest, most important resource? His turn.
I play a UG deck very similar to this. I play 8 accelerators, 4 Garruk, and 8 two-mana counterspells/disruption (6 counters, 2 Into the Roil). Then I play 4 Sphinx of Jwar Isle at the 6 slot.
Its a damned good deck, you can take a look if youd like.
I updated the first post with my most recent list.
I like the list. Sphinx of Jwar Isle is definitely a house, and Calcite Snapper has so much potential. I like the interaction between the Snapper and Overwhelming Stampede as well.
It does seem like the lists have slightly different aims though. Mine is looking to stall the opponent out more, and yours plays more resilient threats.
I've been considering Preordain over the Jace's Ingenuities I have. How has Mind Control played for you so far as well?
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I mean, think about it - resource denial works. It always has. And what is your opponents biggest, most important resource? His turn.
Gotta say, 1 llanowar is reeeeeeeaaalllyy strange.
Also, seems like awakining zone could be good in this deck potentially(if it was catered to). Maybe acidic slime aswell.
And have you considered using non creature ramp?
I'll admit, the 1 Llanowar Elf is just another ramp element. I'd make him a 5th Lotus Cobra or Nest Invader if I could.
I've considered non-creature ramp, but it lacks the aggro potential that the creature-based ramp can get. Normally hitting for 2 or 4 a round isn't a huge problem, but having extra bodies on the floor helps when Garruk -4's. And every damage counts when you're looking to win by turn 6 or 7 before the other guy recovers.
Awakening Zone would be a little slow, but I think Acidic Slime would be an awesome addition given the goal of the deck ("cost-effectively cripple a slower deck to get out ahead of it for long enough to win"). I like that it adds consistency and also gives the deck a few answers to some odder problems in Standard.
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I mean, think about it - resource denial works. It always has. And what is your opponents biggest, most important resource? His turn.
So the way this deck works is to hit a turn 2 ramp element (Lotus Cobra or Nest Invader) which makes the way for a turn 3 Garruk. Turn 3 Garruk untaps two lands, which leaves you with counter mana open. Turn 4, you place a Frost Titan targeting one of their lands, and you look to stretch into an advantage from there while attacking with your ramp elements, titans and Garruk tokens/overrun.
The important thing is that the ramp elements (mostly) don't have to tap to contribute. This lets you swing as often as possible. Even Garruk can contribute with tokens or an overrun if extra mana isn't needed.
The Mind Controls are there because this deck often nabs a win right as the opponent recovers from your Frost Titan disruption, though I could easily see them being replaced with Jace The Mind Sculptor. My only hesitation there so far is that my Phyrexian Revokers are often tuned to JTMS.
Llanowar Elves can also make way for a Turn 3 Garruk. I may replace them with Joraga Treespeaker though, since that's another way to potentially Turn 4 Frost Titan.
Room for Improvement
The deck does seem weak to an uncountered Pyroclasm or some early removal targeting the Ramp Elements. I'm not sure where to start with the sideboard just yet. It definitely needs some cards to prop it up against red and black aggro decks since it's normally designed to play against UB Control and Valakut.
I've also considered going up to 25 lands just to up the chances of hitting the 4th turn land drop, but I also have to temper that against having a bunch of the deck already dedicated to mana generation.
Any help here would be appreciated!
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Quote from Kaevyn »
I mean, think about it - resource denial works. It always has. And what is your opponents biggest, most important resource? His turn.
Niv at least can survive a lot of the cheap burn and Mizzium Mortars.
I think America control has great tools to be very powerful. I'm just struggling to see what their best finisher is at the moment. All the creatures it has access to are great, but not very sticky. They're all very subject to a wide range of removal, basically. Nothing is indestructible or hexproof.
I actually don't think 4CC or 5CC needs Lantern to be viable. I think these decks would want to use a lot of sweeps and Keyrunes, which function like mana fixing, acceleration and manlands in these decks. In testing at least, I've had no mana problems so far.
I don't think you'd use Scavenge to juice either the troll or pack rat tokens, but it helps you get more value out of your discards while preparing for a recovery when they clear your threats.
And Goliath/Mangler/Slitherhead are all respectable threats on their own when Rancor'd.
Also, it doesn't work well against Hasted threats like Zealous Conscripts or Thundermaw Hellkite.
I definitely see the value in forcing them to overcommit into sweeps, but it just seems hard to get going in practice.
An aggro deck will most likely remove it and continue to swing through before you ever benefit from the lifegain.
Or you could wait until you have 5 or more mana to play it, but then there are stronger options.
I'm not seeing a lot of other cards that really benefit from you staying all-in-black.
Also, it's good with Thrun.
Angelic Destiny's art is awesome.
His ability is very affordable (1 blue mana or 2 life) to retarget a spell or ability to him. This means Lightning Bolts, JTMS -1 Unsummons, Go For The Throat (fizzles), Doom Blade, etc. I believe you can also redirect an opponent's equipment attach to your Spellskite, though it doesn't steal the equipment - it just fizzles the attempt.
He's a 2 play, which curves nicely into Deceiver Exarch and Splinter Twin.
Basically once he hits the board, they have to really spend some cards (and the right cards at that) to keep your Exarch combo from going off.
Gore Vassal was surprisingly strong for me also. I just always got good mileage out of it, saving a lot of tempo without giving up card advantage.
Lastly, Strandwalker surprised me. I thought it would be too costly, but it did a great job of stopping aggro cold.
Venser's definitely cool but it doesn't seem like there's a deck he works in just yet. Incremental card advantage from bouncing things with ETB triggers is nice and all until you get blown up by Valakut. Valakut Ramp does not care about your card advantage unless you have exactly answered its 3-4 bombs while also disarming Valakut.
Renegade Doppleganger is also fun, but it's inconsistent, which is usually a death blow for Standard.
Equipment needs to outright win you the game in this standard environment, and Infiltration Lens just doesn't. Plus, you rarely ever want to give your opponent options with your mechanics, because they'll always pick the least useful option for you.
I also like Sad Sac, Dread Statuary and Leatherback Baloth in their respective decks.
Survival Cache... first and foremost, lifegain means very little in this meta unless you can gain a LOT of it... like an additional 20+ life in short order. With that in mind, you're paying 3 mana to possibly get one net card of advantage next turn. That's both slow and expensive.
Additionally, the decks you'd want to gain life against can probably deny you the card draw. It just doesn't work.
Royal Assassin is still unplayed because again, it gives your opponent the choice of whether or not they want to lose their creature or wait until they can remove the assassin.
If you want to force removal on their part, there are better cards to do it. If you want to guarantee removal on your part, there are better cards to do it.
Weenies are cheap and quick, but weak. Equipment is beefy, but also expensive, slow and fragile.
Put the two together, and you'd expect that the pros would cancel out the cons right? Actually, the problems compound. And then you get very little of the benefits.
Tapping to equip in this meta is the equivalent of a "Hail Mary" pass... except you're throwing it to your weakest player, and you're only aiming for the 50 yard line. If he bolts your creature in response, you literally lose the game.
I understand the mentality of adding the stoneforge+equipment suite to your deck. You say to yourself, "Now, all of my cheap creatures can potentially win me the game! And it'll be consistent!"
What you're actually saying is "Now, I'll consistently slow down/dilute my weenie gameplan and make it vulnerable to spot removal in addition to sweepers."
The only equipment that can immediately win you the game is an early Argentum Armor, which is why WW Quest is dangerous. Equipment on a few infectors works, too. And still both of these strategies can lose to a lightning bolt in response.
The main problem is that the playable equipment of previous years (that wasn't Skullclamp) either provided efficient card advantage onto already decent creatures, or it could actually buffer you against losing... all while pushing the ball forward.
Right now, equipment can't buffer you against getting blown-up by Valakut. You can easily take 12-18 points of damage in one turn from Valakut by the time your equipment would normally be online and making a difference. Equipment can't buffer you against being alpha struck by plant tokens, either. And it has a lot to get through to even resolve and stick against UB Control.
It seems unfair to break apart the equip strategy into it's components and ask "does this card win me the game? how about this one?" because few other cards pass this test. However, it's necessary in this meta because you are going up against a deadly consistent 5 to 7 turn clock that will absolutely kill you.
Your strategy needs to consistently win you the game in 5-7 turns (despite removal coming your way), or it needs to be prepared to answer 3-4 killer threats in a row WHILE also disarming the inevitable Valakut win.
This is similar to why other midrange/Rock style decks don't work at the moment. If your plan is to play efficient/versatile threats, remove threats efficiently and generate some card advantage, you're probably going to get blown up on turns 5-7.
Even if your strategy somehow you got 2-3 cards deeper into your deck than Valakut did (and it probably didn't), you may still just lose. Because the cards you eventually put down on the table weren't good enough, or you didn't get to the right combination of removal while also disarming the Valakuts.
I like the list. Sphinx of Jwar Isle is definitely a house, and Calcite Snapper has so much potential. I like the interaction between the Snapper and Overwhelming Stampede as well.
It does seem like the lists have slightly different aims though. Mine is looking to stall the opponent out more, and yours plays more resilient threats.
I've been considering Preordain over the Jace's Ingenuities I have. How has Mind Control played for you so far as well?
I'll admit, the 1 Llanowar Elf is just another ramp element. I'd make him a 5th Lotus Cobra or Nest Invader if I could.
I've considered non-creature ramp, but it lacks the aggro potential that the creature-based ramp can get. Normally hitting for 2 or 4 a round isn't a huge problem, but having extra bodies on the floor helps when Garruk -4's. And every damage counts when you're looking to win by turn 6 or 7 before the other guy recovers.
Awakening Zone would be a little slow, but I think Acidic Slime would be an awesome addition given the goal of the deck ("cost-effectively cripple a slower deck to get out ahead of it for long enough to win"). I like that it adds consistency and also gives the deck a few answers to some odder problems in Standard.
This deck has a great curve (that is also very consistent).
4 x Nest Invader
4 x Phyrexian Revoker
4 x Frost Titan
2 x Primeval Titan
1 x Llanowar Elf
4 x Negate
4 x Garruk Wildspeaker
3 x Jace's Ingenuity
2 x Mind Control
8 x Island
4 x Misty Rainforest
3 x Tectonic Edge
The Big Idea
So the way this deck works is to hit a turn 2 ramp element (Lotus Cobra or Nest Invader) which makes the way for a turn 3 Garruk. Turn 3 Garruk untaps two lands, which leaves you with counter mana open. Turn 4, you place a Frost Titan targeting one of their lands, and you look to stretch into an advantage from there while attacking with your ramp elements, titans and Garruk tokens/overrun.
The important thing is that the ramp elements (mostly) don't have to tap to contribute. This lets you swing as often as possible. Even Garruk can contribute with tokens or an overrun if extra mana isn't needed.
The Mind Controls are there because this deck often nabs a win right as the opponent recovers from your Frost Titan disruption, though I could easily see them being replaced with Jace The Mind Sculptor. My only hesitation there so far is that my Phyrexian Revokers are often tuned to JTMS.
Llanowar Elves can also make way for a Turn 3 Garruk. I may replace them with Joraga Treespeaker though, since that's another way to potentially Turn 4 Frost Titan.
Room for Improvement
The deck does seem weak to an uncountered Pyroclasm or some early removal targeting the Ramp Elements. I'm not sure where to start with the sideboard just yet. It definitely needs some cards to prop it up against red and black aggro decks since it's normally designed to play against UB Control and Valakut.
I've also considered going up to 25 lands just to up the chances of hitting the 4th turn land drop, but I also have to temper that against having a bunch of the deck already dedicated to mana generation.
Any help here would be appreciated!
Plague Stinger -> Piston Sledge is a big problem