MTG Salvation

I don't think this has been mentioned yet, but Amonkhet brought us Vizier of the Menagerie. It's basically the most insane card Animar could ever possibly wish for.

Vizier of the Menagerie {3}G
Creature — Naga Cleric 3/4
You may look at the top card of your library. (You may do this at any time.)
You may cast the top card of your library if it's a creature card.
You may spend mana as though it were mana of any type to cast creature spells.

Vizier into Oracle is the most satisfying combo ever.

If you have 1 creature + Survival + Sylvan/Worldly, you can survival into Vizier, then combo with tutor without needing a card draw; then tutoring into something like Imperial recruiter is completely insane, as even if you don't have any gas, Vizier + shuffles gives you options and the Peregrine drake untap gives you options.

Also highly recommend Rishkar, Peema Renegade. Turning online Animar/Wall of Roots/Arctic Merfolk & +2 as potential mana tappers can gain you net 2+ mana, and sets up targets for Wirewood Symbiote

Updated list:

Last call?

Jester831
lrp8800a
PST

Jitte tilts games from time to time, sure, but generally it's slow, predictable, and you can out maneuver it. It doesn't steal the game single handedly, we still win most of the games involving Jitte anyway, and none of our worst matchups are improved by anti-jitte tech.

Any ideas for improving our matchup against Jace?

The new mulligan rule disproportionally favors Animar. Where our opponents would be inclined to mulligan simply in hopes of getting some small set of specific answers, we can basically keep any balanced hands. There's also a much higher risk threshold. Really, we don't need to mulligan all that aggressively at all, and even seemingly mundane hands routinely pull off extraordinary early kills. We win the numbers game, statistically.

Regarding your struggles w/ Mono Red, Aramille, it's a little unconventional, but if you adopt a more mid-range strategy, and focus more on ramp / card advantage / efficiency rather than simply going all in w/ Animar, then their tempo/burn strategy falls apart. Never forget that you win the war of attrition.

Yea, the OP definitely needs updating. It's been on my todo list for a while, albeit low. I'm going to do a proper primer and breakdown after Khans is out.

As far as Man-o-War' goes, he's weaker than Dream Stalker and Arctic Merfolk because he costs 3, and targets. Of those, I would rank Arctic Merfolk higher than Dream Stalker because the bounce effect doesn't pass priority. Aside from mana costs, it's very relevant that Dream Stalker and co. do not target, forcing your opponent to respond to the trigger and not the choice, making spot removal much less powerful.

I love Rattleclaw Mystic, it's definitely going to make the cut. Netting mana while adding the critical 4th counter puts this akin to Cloud of Faerie (w/out cradle/sprawl etc).

A lot of the deck building decisions revolve around value given cost reduction, and synergies. As long as the curve isn't detrimental, then adding in more value cards makes sense. The decision to cut some value cards, such as Scarecrone and Rofellos happened when the curve was somewhat detrimental, and also before there was a higher emphasis on consistency over sheer speed. Those factors changed, which is why it's worth re-opening the discussion.

Man-O-War' is just one of those cards where it never really impresses, but every once in a blue moon, it's a quality toolbox card, that can be tutored with Imperial Recruiter whereas Gilded Drake cannot. It has stolen games. Not many, but some. I get the feeling though that the games in which it has won could've otherwise been won with other card selections. More importantly, it's worth weighing in on where the focus needs to be. Cutting Man-O-War at the cost of slightly decreasing win% against aggro if it means increasing matchups elsewhere is definitely something worth weighing. Furthermore, you also have to ask things like, if I had a Rofellos instead of this Man-O-War, and were instead able to ramp up card advantage etc, how would that impact my win%?

Anyway, food for thought - if we are going to do a new round of testing/optimization for Khans, it might be an appropriate time to do it with fresh eyes. The reasons why things like Rofellos, Quirion Ranger and Scarecrone were cut, for example, are no longer as pronounced. Elvish Mystic, Faerie Imposter, Bond Beetle, Gatecreeper Vine, Sage of Epityr etc changed the curve dynamics, which in return makes Rofellos and Scarecrone suddenly stronger picks.

The biggest thing to consider is that the normal A vs B perspective doesn't strictly apply here. This deck is entirely about card dynamics, so you somewhat need to look at it from a many-to-many perspective such that emphasizes strong dynamics. The right fit is almost always better than the best card here.

For Reclamation sage? There are a couple of options. Arctic Merfolk, Sage of Epityr, Augury Owl, Dream Stalker, Cloudstone Curio, and Man-o'-War are arguably the weakest slots at the moment, from strongest to weakest.

I have a very love hate relationship going on with Cloudstone Curio. On one hand, it's a pillar that unequivocally ends the game, however at the same time it's terrible in opening hands, and anytime early. There are some games in which Animar isn't a picture, in which it generates reasonable card advantage, however this is very infrequent, and there are truly a lot of options in that scenario.

As far as unequivocal combos go, Survival simply doesn't cut it - it's very difficult to precisely tell the exact moment in which you're technically infinite, it's very difficult to explain, it has decision trees, and it doesn't produce a predictable state, making it impossible to declare that you intend to do it n-times. fact Granted, you will never need to do more than a handful of iterations, the fact remains that it's not cut and dry.

That's where Cloudstone Curio has always come into place. However, Earthcraft also offers up the ability to do an unequivocal infinite combo. You can simply cycle between Artisan of Kozilek, Faerie Imposter and Shrieking Drake with Skullclamp. Infinite card draw, infinite mana, and infinite shuffles is unequivocal. If you're staring down a complicated board state, you 100% need this capability.

All that said, I think it's worth testing out cutting a combination of any/all of the listed cards, and testing out other options. Candidates for testing include:

Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
Joraga Treespeaker
Alchemist's Apprentice
Scarecrone
Living Totem
Wild Cantor
Quirion Ranger
Snap
Manamorphose
Bounty of the Hunt
Oracle of Mul Daya
Satyr Wayfinder
Frantic Search
Reclamation Sage

As far as cuts go, Sea Gate Oracle should be nowhere near the chopping block.

Finally, call me a crazy bastard, because clearly I'm so far out there with regards to deckbuild that it's borderline absurd, but I still don't feel like it's worth specifically adding in Reclamation Sage as hate for Jitte/Survival. Jitte itself is at most a small piece of a larger counter offense. It's not going to win alone, they still need a lot of things to go right; it only tilts the scale paired with hands that would otherwise keep you in check. It's generally very manageable to play against, and there are always other options. Aside from adopting very calculated strategies, Primeval Titan generally just does work. The majority of decks that utilize Jitte against us are already very good matchups. I would much focus optimization towards making the control matchup better, specifically GAAIV.

1) Fetchlands aren't really replaceable. The next best thing is probably to go with more non-basics, the obvious choices being: Mana Confluence, City of Brass, Painlands etc.

2) There's no substitute. Kozilek being an eldrazi, and colorless is why he's worthwhile. +1 slot.

3) +1 slot.

Off of the top of my head, some noteworthy includes:

Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
Joraga Treespeaker
Alchemist's Apprentice
Scarecrone
Living Totem
Wild Cantor
Quirion Ranger
Snap
Manamorphose
Bounty of the Hunt
Oracle of Mul Daya
Satyr Wayfinder
Frantic Search

Yea, I'm going to have vote for Ulamog here, he's real good, especially if you're rocking Eye of Ugin, which you should - combos real well with Artisan, and gives you extra gas with Kozilek.

Definitely would recommend checking out the Imperial Animar list: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/forum-1-vs-1-commander-decklists/206312-imperial-animar

There are a couple strange includes IMO. For example, running Dream Stalker but not Shrieking Drake, which IMO could give you some more bang for the buck.

What kind of benefits have you been getting by going with a more mid-range/combo variant?

Quote from Khardrock »

I just started playing this deck and really like it so far but I was wondering what could be done to improve the match up vs. Marith and against control decks mainly nin.

What kind of issues are you having with Marath? That's generally an extremely favorable matchup

Azeredo, here's the list Ikaoru was referring to: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/melek-spiral/

The biggest thing you could do to make your deck stronger is to utilize more cheap instances/sorceries, especially cantrips. There are a lot of underwhelming cards in your list at the moment that hinder it, such as: Ring of Evos Isle, Tormod's Crypt, Gorgon's Head, Lightning Talons, Runner's Blade, Hydrosurge etc. In most cases, there are better equivalent alternatives, though I'd argue that there are better effects just as well.

Hmmm, you're correct. Updated the list on tapped out.

Daze is the complete blowout in a lot of matches - really just never disappoints.

Wirewood Herald is surprisingly good. It generates a LOT of card advantage without burning through all of your clampable creatures, which in return makes it so that when you do use Gaea's Cradle, you have that much more mana. Usually when using Imperial Recruiter, you'll tutor Phyrexian Metamorph, clone Recruiter, tutor Peregrine Drake, getting you to into a really solid position to chain. At this point, Herald let's you tutor into Fierce Empath, which more than likely will get you Artisan of Kozilek. This opens up the opportunity to clamp Metamorph, Artisan, and clone Peregrine Drake, leaving you in a position with enough mana, card advantage and mana to win the game simply by being smart about cradle, and using Artisan to amplify your card advantage each iteration (clamp gater/Imperial, Artisan, bounce Metamorph, clone Peregrine etc).

Orcish Lumberjack was cut from the deck a long time ago. It's really detrimental to sacrifice lands, and the deck is much stronger as a consistent T4 deck than an inconsistent T3 deck.

I'm not a fan of Food Chain for a number of reasons. While, once it's in play, it's a complete powerhouse, it's also card disadvantage, and undermines things like skullclamp, gaea's cradle, bounce creatures, clones etc. Really, when it comes down to it, the deck is able to manage mana efficiently enough that I'd prefer card advantage outright.

Owl Familiar is real good. It shouldn't be a question of Owl Familiar vs Alchemist's apprentice, it should be a question of Apprentice vs other creature slots.

Elvish Mystic is already played.

Birthing Pod is real expensive, and we don't have a cohesive strategy to abuse it.

Chrome Mox is good, but operating with card disadvantage significantly reduces consistency. Mox Diamond is only really exciting because of things like Gush, Fathom Seer, and the massive likelihood of having extra lands to pitch. Again, this comes down to the question of which is better, a much more consistent T4 kill, or slightly more T3 kills? I've constructed and played both versions, and I can definitively say that creating a more consistent, resilient build emphasizing card advantage has a much better match spectrum, and much better infinite potential, than a build trading card advantage for speed.

The most recent decklist is always here:

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/imperial-animar-13-01-13-1/

It hasn't been updating for a while, though I'd argue that just affirms the sheer build quality to stand up to a LOT of critical analysis, and go unwavering. That's not to say I don't test variations; I just feel real good about that specific version.

Well, to be clear, there's a mile long list of things that I'd play if there wasn't the dilemma of what to cut.

1) I like Faithless looting, but it's awkward to cast, and I'd rather have something like Gush.

2) Manamorphose is really good. It can screw you over sometimes by costing 2, but the main issue is that it offers little utility in a deck that doesn't need any thinning. As it stands, I feel like more or less all of the non-creature slots are really strong. The weakest slots being Land Grant, Sylvan Tutor, and Cloudstone Curio. I've been down on Curio lately - it's an instant win card, is versatile in a lot of situations, but fundamentally feels more and more like a means to simplify the explanation of an already infinite combo. It's pretty slow, and really holds you back until you're already through all the motions. At that point, I think Artisan + Earthcraft + Phyrexian Metamorph + Shrieking Drake + Skullclamp works well as an infinite combo that can readily be explained and has no uncertainty. Survival, while technically being an infinite combo, is too complicated to explain to really be suitable. I'm more than willing to bet that in a tournament scenario, a judge will consider the combo to have too many decisions between iterations to allow you to declare it as an infinite.

3) Bloodbraid Elf doesn't fit the curve. Hydra is interesting, but it's really sexy if you're using it after you've already set up primeval/cradle, and never really before. I think it's more worthwhile to optimize the combo leading up to primeval, it comes down easy, and you'll probably win by virtue of primeval alone if you can't win outright on the spot.

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say that all Animar decks should be discussed in my thread. What I try to accomplish with Imperial Animar is a systematic combo, which requires fundamentally different deck building guidelines. Where in my approach, I shy away from a lot of truly powerful cards that simply don't given the constraints, I think there is a place for both value oriented combo builds, and for midrange good stuff builds.

From the perspective of sheer explosiveness, resilience and consistency, it's mine and many other's opinion that Imperial Animar is a pound-for-pound better approach, however in a lot of ways, if that's the only conclusion, then we're stymieing the growth of value combo variants, and midrange good stuff variants. In that regard, it's important to expand the discussion, as it's distinctly possible that what matters more is having a different matchup spectrum that is more suited to the metagame than simply having the best overall win rate.

That said, I do believe that there's a large issue with players simply not understanding how Imperial Animar works, and then making derivative decks with a lot of win-more fluff at the expensive of tempo, consistency, and most importantly chain-ability: the very sought after ability to make the combo go unabridged without requiring staples. From the outside perspective of someone watching the combo, it might seem lucky for the Imperial Animar player to pull off complex 30+ card combos, usually without any mana to spare, before finally digging into an infinite loop to close the game, however, it's consistently reproducible and is completely driven by skill and discipline.

What I'd like to see is a discussion in which people understand how the combo works fully, and either contribute to it, or, alternatively, contribute towards the progression of other strategies. It is definitely important to nourish other strategies, and I apologize for any role I've made in taking away from the development of that.