I'd say Tuktuk is bottom tier... seriously, you don't want to play a bad general in the worst color.
Thada is quite powerful and above Sygg in powerevel in my opinion, but it all depends on how tight you build your deck. A top tier deck isn't defined completely by it's general, you could even build a fair Braids deck if you play accordingly!
However, I had some great fun with Stonebrow, Krosan Hero. He has a nice powerlevel and staying away from blue and black will stop you from doing all (well, most of) those unfair top-tier stuff
Basically every game was quite balanced, but it still gives you the ability for those epic-feeling moves through cards like Insurrection or Tooth and Nail, if you are aiming for them. The greatest plus is that you most likely will end up with a deck that won't disrupt your opponents gameplan and ramp into some fatties instead - that's a win-win!
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GZ feels a bit stronger in a competetive environment, as her card drawing is a bit less situational than the growing of Thraxi. It's harder to jumpblock GZ too. In a casual enviornment, just play both and switch whenever you want
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Is it Multiplayer or 1vs1 EDH? You have to build a much tighter deck for 1vs1 while playing a “weak” deck can actually be an advantage in multiplayer games.
It’s obvious that you want to play Kazuul, so go for it! It’s not surprising that everybody is advertising other Generals though and I’ll try to explain why. First of all, mono colored decks have some major weaknesses, as there’s always some kind of cards they can’t deal with very well. Blue has a hard time handling permanents, Black and Red are unable to deal with enchantments and green can’t do anything but kill birds (white deals with everything and is doing that great). There are many strong enchantments around. Just saying. Larry Nevin’s Disk or Oblivion Stone could help you there (that’s an investment that will pay of fast, as these cards go in every EDH deck).
Red is especially weak on it’s own. That’s because every color has some individual strengths, blue has counters, black has hand disruption, green has mana acceleration and white has… lifegain, I guess? Red has direct damage, which is very underwhelming with one or multiple opponents at 40 life as well as dragons and angels or some 6/6 lifelink shroud slivers everywhere.
Another problem is that red is quite unwilling to socialize with others. You deal damage, attack with hasty guys, burn creatures. It’s not impossible, but harder to make friends in multiplayer games this way. If another player gets attacked and you are able to burn the attacker away, it’s sometimes the right play to do so just to make a friend. On the other hand, burning an utility creature that’s annoying the whole table but nobody in particular may be the wrong play. The guy with the doom blade or the dude with the wrath may take care of this. It’s all about card advantage here. Nobody will thank you much for killing that utility creature, because it was threatening you too. You are -1 card and there aren’t many cards in red to make up for that, while black or white will catch up on that card quite fast. Killing the attacker to make a friend like in the scenario above is -1 too, but it could result in him helping you, you not getting attacked or Hymn to tourach’ed or cruel ultimated. So red plays quite counterintuitive in many multiplayer situations, but it’s a fascinating beast to master.
Okay, I hope you have an idea now what you’re up to with a Mono Red build. If that’s too much of turn off, you already got some suggestions regarding other generals. Please don’t exlude a General just because you don’t have the card. You can aquire many of them cheaply and you’ll play it EVERY game at least once, so it’s a worthwhile investement. Therefore I suggest Momir Vig, he's about 1$ and the chief of my pet deck). I play this guy online and it’s a blast to play, very adaptable and interactive, so you won’t get sick of it fast.
Lastly, EDH is expensive played as 1vs1, because you can’t make up for lousy cards with superior politics there. If you’re playing multiplayer you can easily play mind control over sower of temptation, Kirtar’s Wrath over Wrath of God or Diabolic Tutor over its demonic counterpart and get away with it. There are also many cards you can grab for a buck that are completely nuts in this format, so it's quite possible to build a decent deck for 20$ plus the cards you already have to get decent pile of fun, an Investment which I strongly recommend at this point.
One thing PV said that really helped me understand ROE. "Just because there are a bunch of huge creatures doesn't make them all suddenly castable."
Yes, Crusher is playable. But if you don't get him, I do not think that you need to replace him with another 8+ drop or eldrazi.
I've made R/G and R/b and mono-R with a ton of token producers and not a lot of real high end. And it works fine. You either get a random green leveller or invoker or some sort of mana sink. And if you don't, you just end up more aggressive.
I would treat RoE like M10 draft. Singleton 2/2's are outclassed fast, 7 mana guys are castable, but there are a lot of good cards in between.
well, I got a Hellion Eruption and some token enablers (mainly 3 Growth Spasm), some midrangey beats in 2 Stomper Cubs and 3 removal spells in Staggershock, Disaster Radius and Narcolepsy. With the Hellion eruption I opted for G/R tokens, but there wasn't coming much besides the mediocre Growth Spasms. I had other ramp (Battlement, Ondu Giant), but absolutely nothing to ramp into. My midrange plan was lacking green Invokers or Aura Gnarlids. There was no evasion and it was weaker than the Levelers / Gnarlid plan and probably won't seal the deal before ramp gets their fatty. Bad match-up against the common archetypes, so I just hoped for the random 11/11 to get there.
Just for the record, I generally consider Pathrazer as unplayable, much like DSC in M10. I feel dirty to defend it, but I do believe it was the right decision. I failed earlier in dipping into the wrong archetype or it was WotC's fault for not shipping me the cards I needed, whichever you prefer.
A good one-step rule is to look at what cards the people who beat you have in their decks. Not just the cards that seem to beat you (which everyone notices) but also the ones you roll your eyes at because they look like filler.
For example, we had a big thread in the Limited forum a while back with various people expressing puzzlement at top players picking Escaped Null highly. Well... it's good! It's just not obviously good in the way that something like Knight of Cliffhaven is.
Actually, I think I got a rather good grasp of the format by now. The decks just don't work out because I don't get the key spells and if I decide to go for the "classic" way of just drafting good cards I'll get blown away by leveler - leveler - teacher or aura gnarlid / boar umbra with emerge unscathed back up.
I underestimated the Null at first like most people until I saw one in action with multiple Battle-rattle Shamans. Meanwhile I like the card very much
Nice idea Cardoc. I'm too lazy to think about a complete decklist, but it'd be R/B removal.dec with the usual suspects combined with either Kiln Fiend or Fireboar (or both!) as win con. Rares would be Drana, Guul Draz Assassin and probably the uber unfair Eldrazi Conscription.
I just switched to swiss and played 2 rounds yet. I'm playing a horrible 4c green with pathrazer because "picking up crushers pack 3" didn't work out and I desperately needed something at the end of the curve. I feel ashamed for playing it, but the deck is able to ramp into it. Actually I had just a game where I played him out without ramp... by turn 11. Yes, I didn't miss one land drop. I lost obviously.
I'd like to believe that I just get one bad beat after another, but that would be a bit too much coincidence by now. I should watch some replays and figure out what's happening.
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hey guys, you're doing a clan draft this weekend? After losing regularly in the 8-4's lately I guess I need some advice. It could be bad luck or reading the signs not properly, but I suspect that I make some play mistakes and need someone to point them out...
It has become much harder since I don't get pick 6 and later Staggershocks and Narcolepsies!
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How much do you expect from your 2 drop? Taking out an opposing 4 drop is fine for me.
There are plenty of ways to win with Flame Strike, Staggershock plus something. It's the draws with no removal where it matters what the something is!
I partly agree. Any other 2 drop won't deal 11 in 2 turns, though. I know that this won't happen too often, but it isn't too far away from the scary turn 1 leveler, turn 2 leveler, turn 3 teacher scenario, is it?
Just to make it clear again, I don't think it's the strongest 2 drop in the set nor would I name it an auto-include, but it has potential to be strong and is imo in the given situation the better pick. Maybe we have to agree to disagree here.
That's not as helpful as it might be given the deck's overall strength!
I was aiming at the general misconception of the Kiln Fiend decks here, but this won't go anywhere if we consider Kiln Fiend unplayable outside of the combo deck.
Only time will tell, I guess.
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Point taken. Tell me again, why didn't you take the Dawnglare there? Okay, I guess this goes under beating a dead horse then, I'll just shut up now.
That, on the other hand, is a card I really don't like. Distortion Strike aside, it mostly just sits around being bad before trading with something irrelevant. (Unless you get that particular deck which supports it... but I'm clearly not drafting that here.)
I don’t say Kiln Fiend is great outside of the Distortion Strike combo, but at this point of the draft, with only 2 instants but 5 cards (2 with rebound) that play well with this 2 drop I just think he’s the right call. Surreal Memoir is strong, but you still need at least 2 instants to make it playable, while you already got the tools to make Kiln Fiend good. By the way, he’s there to trade with “irrelevant” creatures. He only costs 1R. It’s bad to trade him for a Venerated Teacher or Nest Invader, but it’s fine to trade for Ondu Giant or Makindi Griffin and if you go Turn 2 Kiln Fiend, Turn 3 Staggershock your blocker, attack for 4, Turn 4 staggershock you, flame slash your wall, attack for 7 you’re golden. Your deck got the potential for that right there, while Surreal Memoir still needs at least 2 instants to even make it into the deck.
On another note your deck is perfectly fine for a Kiln Fiend / Distortion Strike deck. It’s horrible what some players try to achieve, playing only 6-7 creatures and a awful amount of spells just get the fast win. I mean, they have to fold as soon as their Kiln Fiend gets killned. In my opinion the good builds of this archetype just look like yours – blue flyers, red removal and ground beef, maybe a splash. -3 random dudes, -2 random spells +3 Kiln Fiend, +2 Distortion Strike, profit.
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P1P3 – You really made a horrible pick here, I’m sorry, but you already heard that by now. The correct pick would have been Induce Despair I guess. I consider Lavafume Invoker as filler and he rarely makes it into my decks. Actually I’m surprised he ends up in your final build, while Repel the Darkness and Guard Duty have to stay in the SB. P1P5 – I’m not that fond of Battle-Rattle Shaman yet. I mean he’s solid to awesome, depending on the deck, but he’s still no Dawnglare Invoker. I’d also consider a Pick 5 Dawnglare as a sign that white is open. P2P7 – I’d take Kiln Fiend there. We got 2 instants so far and 3 sorceries. One of the sorceries is Disortion Strike. P3P9 – Why the hell is there still a Boar Umbra? Not relevant for your deck, but WTF? It was a strong pack, but this shouldn't ever table.
I mostly agree with your other picks, personal preferences aside. Your result speaks for itself and Disaster Radiusis unfair. I like the Distortion Strike with Crusher and Battle-Rattles. Your hand in our second game looks very slow, even in this format. You are very dependent on your draw (obviously) and I wouldn’t call it a keep against something like G/x Gnarlid or U/x levelers, as these decks can be blazingly fast. It was fine against my rather slow B/W though. It’s also fine if you expect playing scrub, just to not get blown away by mana screw. Death Cultist is NOT playable. That’s like playing Raging Goblin in M10. Seriously.
Now that you mention it, I remember that game. Poor, poor Drana. She was underperfoming that day for me, she got raced / killed way too often.
Anyway, I just picked Gideon P2P2, woohoo
This little lurker here would like the get more involved with the MTGS community and playing people I "know" on MoDo would be nice too! If there's a spot left, I'd like to join your clan.
I'm from Switzerland, got an online limited rating of 1720 and my favourite archetype of RoE draft is U/G Gnarlid so far (I have an affinity for Disortion Strike / Kiln Fiend, though). Next to drafting I like to play extended from time to time online or Legacy and Highlander in the strange non-virtual world.
Anything else you need to know?
Greetings
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I started playing MTGO with Lorwyn for a draft here and there and cascaded into some booster prices with Jund lately. A few days ago I got rid of the deck, because the only deck I'd like to play is just way to expensive right now (because it's blue and you can't play blue without jace). I decided to switch to Extended and I'm playing Scapeshift now.
I'm a bit tired of the random angry dude that tells me I'm a bad player and only win through luck and therefore look for some random happy dude that tells me I'm a bad player and only win through luck AND THEN tells me what I'm doing wrong
I'm happy to play some Extended when I'm online or talk about game theory / the latest MTG articles / limited tech.
What I fear most? Unknown decks, where the gameplan isn't obvious. Jund is able to beat everything quite constantly after enough testing, but if you don't know what's coming around you may lose just because of that. That's basically what all the "anti-jund" decks did so far.
The other thing I fear is budget-restriction. I don't want to play on MWS and more concerned with legacy and EDH in real life, therefore I play Jund with a crappy manabase (I got 4 catacombs and 2 Manlands though) and without Pulses/garruks on MTGO. Then again, this allows me to run some unexpected cards too. I may got a generally weaker version of the deck, but the surprise effect makes really up for that.
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Thada is quite powerful and above Sygg in powerevel in my opinion, but it all depends on how tight you build your deck. A top tier deck isn't defined completely by it's general, you could even build a fair Braids deck if you play accordingly!
However, I had some great fun with Stonebrow, Krosan Hero. He has a nice powerlevel and staying away from blue and black will stop you from doing all (well, most of) those unfair top-tier stuff
Basically every game was quite balanced, but it still gives you the ability for those epic-feeling moves through cards like Insurrection or Tooth and Nail, if you are aiming for them. The greatest plus is that you most likely will end up with a deck that won't disrupt your opponents gameplan and ramp into some fatties instead - that's a win-win!
It’s obvious that you want to play Kazuul, so go for it! It’s not surprising that everybody is advertising other Generals though and I’ll try to explain why. First of all, mono colored decks have some major weaknesses, as there’s always some kind of cards they can’t deal with very well. Blue has a hard time handling permanents, Black and Red are unable to deal with enchantments and green can’t do anything but kill birds (white deals with everything and is doing that great). There are many strong enchantments around. Just saying. Larry Nevin’s Disk or Oblivion Stone could help you there (that’s an investment that will pay of fast, as these cards go in every EDH deck).
Red is especially weak on it’s own. That’s because every color has some individual strengths, blue has counters, black has hand disruption, green has mana acceleration and white has… lifegain, I guess? Red has direct damage, which is very underwhelming with one or multiple opponents at 40 life as well as dragons and angels or some 6/6 lifelink shroud slivers everywhere.
Another problem is that red is quite unwilling to socialize with others. You deal damage, attack with hasty guys, burn creatures. It’s not impossible, but harder to make friends in multiplayer games this way. If another player gets attacked and you are able to burn the attacker away, it’s sometimes the right play to do so just to make a friend. On the other hand, burning an utility creature that’s annoying the whole table but nobody in particular may be the wrong play. The guy with the doom blade or the dude with the wrath may take care of this. It’s all about card advantage here. Nobody will thank you much for killing that utility creature, because it was threatening you too. You are -1 card and there aren’t many cards in red to make up for that, while black or white will catch up on that card quite fast. Killing the attacker to make a friend like in the scenario above is -1 too, but it could result in him helping you, you not getting attacked or Hymn to tourach’ed or cruel ultimated. So red plays quite counterintuitive in many multiplayer situations, but it’s a fascinating beast to master.
Okay, I hope you have an idea now what you’re up to with a Mono Red build. If that’s too much of turn off, you already got some suggestions regarding other generals. Please don’t exlude a General just because you don’t have the card. You can aquire many of them cheaply and you’ll play it EVERY game at least once, so it’s a worthwhile investement. Therefore I suggest Momir Vig, he's about 1$ and the chief of my pet deck). I play this guy online and it’s a blast to play, very adaptable and interactive, so you won’t get sick of it fast.
Lastly, EDH is expensive played as 1vs1, because you can’t make up for lousy cards with superior politics there. If you’re playing multiplayer you can easily play mind control over sower of temptation, Kirtar’s Wrath over Wrath of God or Diabolic Tutor over its demonic counterpart and get away with it. There are also many cards you can grab for a buck that are completely nuts in this format, so it's quite possible to build a decent deck for 20$ plus the cards you already have to get decent pile of fun, an Investment which I strongly recommend at this point.
Anyway, welcome the EDH community!
well, I got a Hellion Eruption and some token enablers (mainly 3 Growth Spasm), some midrangey beats in 2 Stomper Cubs and 3 removal spells in Staggershock, Disaster Radius and Narcolepsy. With the Hellion eruption I opted for G/R tokens, but there wasn't coming much besides the mediocre Growth Spasms. I had other ramp (Battlement, Ondu Giant), but absolutely nothing to ramp into. My midrange plan was lacking green Invokers or Aura Gnarlids. There was no evasion and it was weaker than the Levelers / Gnarlid plan and probably won't seal the deal before ramp gets their fatty. Bad match-up against the common archetypes, so I just hoped for the random 11/11 to get there.
Just for the record, I generally consider Pathrazer as unplayable, much like DSC in M10. I feel dirty to defend it, but I do believe it was the right decision. I failed earlier in dipping into the wrong archetype or it was WotC's fault for not shipping me the cards I needed, whichever you prefer.
Actually, I think I got a rather good grasp of the format by now. The decks just don't work out because I don't get the key spells and if I decide to go for the "classic" way of just drafting good cards I'll get blown away by leveler - leveler - teacher or aura gnarlid / boar umbra with emerge unscathed back up.
I underestimated the Null at first like most people until I saw one in action with multiple Battle-rattle Shamans. Meanwhile I like the card very much
Nice idea Cardoc. I'm too lazy to think about a complete decklist, but it'd be R/B removal.dec with the usual suspects combined with either Kiln Fiend or Fireboar (or both!) as win con. Rares would be Drana, Guul Draz Assassin and probably the uber unfair Eldrazi Conscription.
I'd like to believe that I just get one bad beat after another, but that would be a bit too much coincidence by now. I should watch some replays and figure out what's happening.
It has become much harder since I don't get pick 6 and later Staggershocks and Narcolepsies!
How much do you expect from your 2 drop? Taking out an opposing 4 drop is fine for me.
I partly agree. Any other 2 drop won't deal 11 in 2 turns, though. I know that this won't happen too often, but it isn't too far away from the scary turn 1 leveler, turn 2 leveler, turn 3 teacher scenario, is it?
Just to make it clear again, I don't think it's the strongest 2 drop in the set nor would I name it an auto-include, but it has potential to be strong and is imo in the given situation the better pick. Maybe we have to agree to disagree here.
I was aiming at the general misconception of the Kiln Fiend decks here, but this won't go anywhere if we consider Kiln Fiend unplayable outside of the combo deck.
Only time will tell, I guess.
Point taken. Tell me again, why didn't you take the Dawnglare there?
Okay, I guess this goes under beating a dead horse then, I'll just shut up now.
I don’t say Kiln Fiend is great outside of the Distortion Strike combo, but at this point of the draft, with only 2 instants but 5 cards (2 with rebound) that play well with this 2 drop I just think he’s the right call. Surreal Memoir is strong, but you still need at least 2 instants to make it playable, while you already got the tools to make Kiln Fiend good. By the way, he’s there to trade with “irrelevant” creatures. He only costs 1R. It’s bad to trade him for a Venerated Teacher or Nest Invader, but it’s fine to trade for Ondu Giant or Makindi Griffin and if you go Turn 2 Kiln Fiend, Turn 3 Staggershock your blocker, attack for 4, Turn 4 staggershock you, flame slash your wall, attack for 7 you’re golden. Your deck got the potential for that right there, while Surreal Memoir still needs at least 2 instants to even make it into the deck.
On another note your deck is perfectly fine for a Kiln Fiend / Distortion Strike deck. It’s horrible what some players try to achieve, playing only 6-7 creatures and a awful amount of spells just get the fast win. I mean, they have to fold as soon as their Kiln Fiend gets killned. In my opinion the good builds of this archetype just look like yours – blue flyers, red removal and ground beef, maybe a splash. -3 random dudes, -2 random spells +3 Kiln Fiend, +2 Distortion Strike, profit.
P1P3 – You really made a horrible pick here, I’m sorry, but you already heard that by now. The correct pick would have been Induce Despair I guess. I consider Lavafume Invoker as filler and he rarely makes it into my decks. Actually I’m surprised he ends up in your final build, while Repel the Darkness and Guard Duty have to stay in the SB.
P1P5 – I’m not that fond of Battle-Rattle Shaman yet. I mean he’s solid to awesome, depending on the deck, but he’s still no Dawnglare Invoker. I’d also consider a Pick 5 Dawnglare as a sign that white is open.
P2P7 – I’d take Kiln Fiend there. We got 2 instants so far and 3 sorceries. One of the sorceries is Disortion Strike.
P3P9 – Why the hell is there still a Boar Umbra? Not relevant for your deck, but WTF? It was a strong pack, but this shouldn't ever table.
I mostly agree with your other picks, personal preferences aside. Your result speaks for itself and Disaster Radius is unfair. I like the Distortion Strike with Crusher and Battle-Rattles.
Your hand in our second game looks very slow, even in this format. You are very dependent on your draw (obviously) and I wouldn’t call it a keep against something like G/x Gnarlid or U/x levelers, as these decks can be blazingly fast. It was fine against my rather slow B/W though. It’s also fine if you expect playing scrub, just to not get blown away by mana screw.
Death Cultist is NOT playable. That’s like playing Raging Goblin in M10. Seriously.
I’m looking forward to our next match!
I have absolutely no idea how you ever could pass a Gideon, but I happily took it...
Anyway, I just picked Gideon P2P2, woohoo
This little lurker here would like the get more involved with the MTGS community and playing people I "know" on MoDo would be nice too! If there's a spot left, I'd like to join your clan.
I'm from Switzerland, got an online limited rating of 1720 and my favourite archetype of RoE draft is U/G Gnarlid so far (I have an affinity for Disortion Strike / Kiln Fiend, though). Next to drafting I like to play extended from time to time online or Legacy and Highlander in the strange non-virtual world.
Anything else you need to know?
Greetings
I'm a bit tired of the random angry dude that tells me I'm a bad player and only win through luck and therefore look for some random happy dude that tells me I'm a bad player and only win through luck AND THEN tells me what I'm doing wrong
I'm happy to play some Extended when I'm online or talk about game theory / the latest MTG articles / limited tech.
Just add Jade to your buddy list
The other thing I fear is budget-restriction. I don't want to play on MWS and more concerned with legacy and EDH in real life, therefore I play Jund with a crappy manabase (I got 4 catacombs and 2 Manlands though) and without Pulses/garruks on MTGO. Then again, this allows me to run some unexpected cards too. I may got a generally weaker version of the deck, but the surprise effect makes really up for that.