Could just go mono-black aggro which will probably be the cheapest list going forward and reasonably competitive. I mean outside bloodsoaked champion it is a very affordable deck. Fetchlands are virtually inconsequential in a deck like that, can play despise instead of thoughtseize, might want to give it a shot.
The reason I don't think master has the same strength as something like blade splicer is because he takes his tokens with him. I just don't think he's particularly valuable, maybe as sideboard tech against rabble red and that's it. And I don't Thassa will be played at all, it was difficult enough to keep her active with double and triple devotion creatures, now it'll be impossible.
6 decks in that top 8 were Abzan midrange apparently. And a 3-1-1 gets you into top 8 of this tournament. I wouldn't put a ton of weight into this decklist. I would like to know what happened in his match against Sveiks because I have piloted Enchantress in multiple tournaments and that deck has an extremely difficult time losing to aggo. I think removal is just going to be terrible this season, so much of it starts at 3 mana just to be answering 1 and 2 drops. I think Sorin might actually be appropriate in this type of deck in theory. My theory is you bring plenty of pressure your first 3 or 4 turns and by the time you land him your opponent simply cannot pressure him because they need their blockers to stay alive.
Against that field I have to imagine he/she was boarding out mogis's maruader a ton because 6 other decks in the top 8 were running black, though mogis can be a great late play if you have another creature in your hand to haste with him. I think this slow roll aggro works largely works because of the 11 bestow creatures allowing the deep end to be versatile and value driven. I think the lackluster removal makes bestow very threatening, as well as a reoccurring target in bloodsoaked champion is very resilient and powerful with bestow. In a match I played against bant control I was able to steal game 3 around turn 20 after 2 elspeth activations because they no longer have the inevitability of sphinx's revelation. I believe Tom Ross said it is important to evaluate how well your aggro deck functions late game and this list looks like it actually has a stronger late game than early game.
The 15 sources of self inflicted damage (4 pain seer, 3 thoughtseize, 4 cave of koilos, 4 herald of torment) just seems like the deck would fold to rabble red.
The curve I don't like at all, I think it is too top heavy for an aggro strategy, the 2 slot is weak, in an aggro deck its common to be on turn 4 or 5 before you hit your third land, you need to be tapping out every turn to have enough pressure and/or disruption to win. The 17 1-drops i like since they can pad your curve, something along the lines of turn 1 1-drop, turn 2 2 1-drops, turn 3 you have access to a 2 drop or 1 drop+2 drop, or a 3 drop depending on your mana. With 12 3+ drops you have to be hitting that third mana in time or you can't pressure fast enough. I mean that tournament looked like a gauntlet, but the key to beating an aggro deck isnt caryatids and coursers, it's keeping an aggro player off the board long enough to pressure back, and I think because our new removal spells can't keep a deck with 12 1-drops off the board that we are poised well in the new metagame.
Does anyone even test? Crippling Blight is a beating against green based decks. You can't run 10 3 drops with 21 lands, and that's just too many 3 drops for an aggro deck. I've been testing the exact deck I intend to play after rotation except bloodstained champion is rakdos cackler. Have about 20 matches in, learning how the deck flows. Several things ive noticed.
MBA is extremely difficult to play correctly. On turn 1 and 2 you may have 5+ different plays you can make. Have to choose whether you are saving your 1-2-3 drops for turn 4 and 5 or play them on curve depending on the matchup and the texture of your hand. I cut the sign in bloods which don't seem appropriate in an aggro deck mainboard. 4 crippling blight, 4 boon of erebos, 4 bile blight.
I think boon has to be a 4 of since we are going to see a ton of coursers and caryatids which allows you to punch through safely. In the aggro game trading your 1 mana spells for their 2-3 mana removal leads to wins and the other utility of punching green creatures in the mouth makes it an excellent card. I even won a single game against an opponent who stabilized by casting 2 boons on my tormented hero. There was one game i distinctly remember where the guy stopped picking up blocks because he lost 2 caryatids and a courser to boon.
Second point. Between herald of torment, boon of erebos, thoughtseize, and pain seer you are doing massive amounts of damage to yourself, which is a big reason not to add 8 more sources of self damage in fetchlands to yourself. I think in any build you want no more than 8 self damaging spells or else you cant beat the aggro mirror.
I'm thinking of cutting a crippling blight but it has done massive amounts of work and drawing multiples can make your opponent cry. I think its more even to run 3. Tagging something like a butcher of the horde that wants to block and lifelink to stabilize is extremely satisfying. And it makes courser really bad. Your opponent isn't going to be alive long enough for the lifegain to matter. There was one game where i couldnt put my opponent into kill range because if my pain seers untapped theyd most likely kill me.
Mogis's Marauder I'm torn on. I mean against non black decks this guy can give you free wins which is the type of card you want in a tier 1 deck. Elspeth fears this guy, as does mono green devotion. I think the new metagame may have a lot of splash damage against him so i cant comment on how good hes been in testing.
Master of the feast is a house. Every game i played him i ended up winning except one game where he was held down by a deadly recluse and i couldnt draw any of my 14 answers in the deck. The drawback appears massive but your opponent has 2 turns to answer or theyre dead. With two of these i fought through 3 grey merchants in a row to win the match. On curve your opponent simply doesnt have the mana to leverage their card advantage which is the only time card advantage actually matters. This false concerns about them drawing a kill spell on your upkeep is silly. In 20 matches that happened exactly 1 time. And unless they draw crackling doom theyre getting crushed. Oh and this guy makes nissa and sarkhan seem really mediocre.
At this point im torn on this deck. I've taken down legit mbd, junk midrange, rabble red, and selesnya aggro shockingly. I've been called lucky after a narrow win by a player that made several misplays. This deck punishes mistakes that you make, there was one game I could have won but one misplay lost me the game. I had no board , was facing lethal next turn, opponent was at two, had mogis's maruader and spiteful returned in my hand, had 5 mana. Mogis's couldnt punch through two grey merchants but if i had played spiteful returned into mogis's marauder the attack trigger would have won the game. I have gotten more players than i care to remember down to 1-2 life. A removal suite+1 sweeper is almost an instant win against this deck but i am learning to combat that (thoughtseize postboard). Boon of erebos doesn't stop -x/-x effects. Molting Snakeskin might be a good card but being 2 for 1ed is punishing for an aggro deck. Against healthy removal suites you want to go wide, against sweepers you want to go deep. Sign in Blood is a win condition lol. Festergloom makes rabble red look terrible.
I said you could order the triggers anyway you wanted them.
And apparently I misread your post, I didn't sleep last night and i swear i read divination/draw/discard/+1/+1 trigger. I thought i was reading you could loot after divination resolved.
Still think someone misunderstood how twinflame works though. Andddd apparently this is under some scenario where you have 6 mana dorks and cast both twinflames......guess it wasn't a rules misunderstanding, but a misunderstanding how the the game works in real life.
Twinflame or any strive card can't target the same creature more than once according to their rulings page. And since copy effects only copy the original state of a creature and no power/toughness alterations, how exactly would twinflame kill your opponent? And how would the Ascendancy P/T triggers win you the game if an opponent has an untapped creature on turn 5 which is perfectly likely.
If you cast a spell it must be on the stack to trigger ascendancy's looting trigger which means the looting will resolve before your spell resolves, the same with the untap triggers, you can't just stick a trigger in the stack where ever you want. But you do get to decide if the untap trigger or the looting trigger resolve first since they trigger simultaneously.
Just want people to understand the stack and rulings as they develop the deck. Because I'm seeing startling conclusions like you can make 24 creatures with a game winning twinflame, and that you can manipulate the stack anyway you want.
Lol yeah no, new cards barely affect legacy at all, that's why we don't have miracles and delver decks that popped up 2 blocks ago. If that isn't format defining I don't know what on earth you expect from sets. Do you expect every block to radically redefine Legacy? Lol what about true name nemesis? Legacy is a flawed format because the nearly infinite options actually create a micro percentage of viable cards, not because standard is flawed. <If standard is so easy, why do you suck at it so much? Why don't you tell tom ross it is luck based, no one is that lucky 3 months apart. Poker is luck based too, but no one is arguing that there aren't people that are amazing at it. Standard takes skill, and yeah maybe is less accessible, but if standard was so easy you wouldn't suck at it.>
Hur dur dur it's a dumb creature deck, creatures are dumb, well then why can't anyone beat a dumb creature deck at the second highest level of competition? No one is that lucky, bad players blame luck, if the game was so dumb and forgiving we wouldn't have any well known, high caliber players, but we know who is good at magic, not who is lucky at magic. Over thousands of games skilled players separate themselves from lucky players, and people who blame luck or dumbed down gameplay will never become an iota better at magic.
I just think if an argument is being made that a game or a format is dumbed down, why is almost everyone terrible at this game except for a handful of high level players?
Because in the formats that really punish you for small play mistakes, no one plays new cards except for power-crept creatures (Griselbrand, Delver, Emrakul, etc.) and things with miracle (Terminus and Entreat the Angels).
So everyone is terrible because no one plays new cards? I'm going to need you to explain the correlation between new cards and community skill level.
I wouldn't say dumb creature decks require no skill. I've played enough draft to see just because you both have 7 creatures on the field and you're at a lower life total doesn't mean you can't win in 2 turns if you attack properly and anticipate blocks. I've been in what would appear to be locked board states and have overcome creature and lifepoint deficits with creative maneuvering and a little boldness. The game is as dumb as you make it for yourself. These people talking about dumb aggro decks, turning creatures sideways, great decks for beginners. Turn 2 in an aggro deck you can easily have 5 different spells you can cast, creature decks aren't dumb, just the people that lose to them. I guess Tom Ross is a force because dumb creature decks are so simple to play.
I just think if an argument is being made that a game or a format is dumbed down, why is almost everyone terrible at this game except for a handful of high level players?
This deck looks really cool but I have a few questions.
What is the general board-state and hand-texture for going off? I'm imagining a Jeskai Ascendancy, two mana dorks, and two or more cantrips in hand.
Doesn't the combo just fizzle if you draw too many 2 or greater CMC cantrips? Like you net one mana a turn: +2 off your dorks when ascendancy triggers and -1 for the cost of the cantrip.
Festergloom seems like insane sideboard tech against Rabble Red. I went with Pain Seer mainboard with Mardu Skullhunter in the sideboard since skullhunter is never really hitting a crucial card. Feast on the Fallen seems excellent with the new fetchlands and painlands that will be running rampant. With black in a lot of the popular creatures Dark Betrayal is going to be a house. I think Bile Blight will become Murderous Cut somewhere. I think 4 Mogis's Marauder might be wrong since black might be splashed incidentally in a lot of decks and could become a split for Herald of torment. I actually really like Master of the Feast who dodges Stoke the Flames, Banishing Light the turn he makes them draw it, Anger of the Gods, Mardu Charm, which I think will be extremely common going forward. Yes everything dies to something, but dodging that much common removal makes him amazing.
Sign in Blood can be used as a burn spell to end the game but could also be a removal spell. I like how the deck lines up against what we will expect to see. A lot of people taking 4 or 5 damage from their own lands, tripping over ambitious manabases while just a streamlined threat and answer package comes at them.
Think the most pertinent spells of a game, especially in standard, start arriving turn 3. Instead of wasting your third turn casting a mana artifact like darksteel ingot, your third turn is open for 3 and 4 mana spells. Unless you need vast sums of mana you shouldn't be ramping turn 3. In standard you can't just have every color have color fixing. Turn 2 can cast the red diamond with two swamps in a black/red deck, all of the sudden every deck fixes and ramps mana very well.
Hate when guys feel like they need to find Triumph of Ferocity offensive to protect me. I think it's offensive you think women are so delicate they can't be allowed to be pictured losing in combat. It's not like Mtg has rampant images of violence against sexualized women. Characters like Elspeth and Nissa are never sexualized, there's nothing wrong with Liliana appearing sexual, the game has a very good balance of female characters of various sexual attractiveness and power level. I mean the two most powerful planeswalkers in standard right now are Elspeth and Nissa.
Anyway, some of the new cards are extremely disturbing Dutiful Return especially considering the flavor text, and Rite of the Serpent is very macabre. Oh and Grim Haruspex, I think he has his hands in someone's brain.
Against that field I have to imagine he/she was boarding out mogis's maruader a ton because 6 other decks in the top 8 were running black, though mogis can be a great late play if you have another creature in your hand to haste with him. I think this slow roll aggro works largely works because of the 11 bestow creatures allowing the deep end to be versatile and value driven. I think the lackluster removal makes bestow very threatening, as well as a reoccurring target in bloodsoaked champion is very resilient and powerful with bestow. In a match I played against bant control I was able to steal game 3 around turn 20 after 2 elspeth activations because they no longer have the inevitability of sphinx's revelation. I believe Tom Ross said it is important to evaluate how well your aggro deck functions late game and this list looks like it actually has a stronger late game than early game.
The 15 sources of self inflicted damage (4 pain seer, 3 thoughtseize, 4 cave of koilos, 4 herald of torment) just seems like the deck would fold to rabble red.
The curve I don't like at all, I think it is too top heavy for an aggro strategy, the 2 slot is weak, in an aggro deck its common to be on turn 4 or 5 before you hit your third land, you need to be tapping out every turn to have enough pressure and/or disruption to win. The 17 1-drops i like since they can pad your curve, something along the lines of turn 1 1-drop, turn 2 2 1-drops, turn 3 you have access to a 2 drop or 1 drop+2 drop, or a 3 drop depending on your mana. With 12 3+ drops you have to be hitting that third mana in time or you can't pressure fast enough. I mean that tournament looked like a gauntlet, but the key to beating an aggro deck isnt caryatids and coursers, it's keeping an aggro player off the board long enough to pressure back, and I think because our new removal spells can't keep a deck with 12 1-drops off the board that we are poised well in the new metagame.
MBA is extremely difficult to play correctly. On turn 1 and 2 you may have 5+ different plays you can make. Have to choose whether you are saving your 1-2-3 drops for turn 4 and 5 or play them on curve depending on the matchup and the texture of your hand. I cut the sign in bloods which don't seem appropriate in an aggro deck mainboard. 4 crippling blight, 4 boon of erebos, 4 bile blight.
I think boon has to be a 4 of since we are going to see a ton of coursers and caryatids which allows you to punch through safely. In the aggro game trading your 1 mana spells for their 2-3 mana removal leads to wins and the other utility of punching green creatures in the mouth makes it an excellent card. I even won a single game against an opponent who stabilized by casting 2 boons on my tormented hero. There was one game i distinctly remember where the guy stopped picking up blocks because he lost 2 caryatids and a courser to boon.
Second point. Between herald of torment, boon of erebos, thoughtseize, and pain seer you are doing massive amounts of damage to yourself, which is a big reason not to add 8 more sources of self damage in fetchlands to yourself. I think in any build you want no more than 8 self damaging spells or else you cant beat the aggro mirror.
I'm thinking of cutting a crippling blight but it has done massive amounts of work and drawing multiples can make your opponent cry. I think its more even to run 3. Tagging something like a butcher of the horde that wants to block and lifelink to stabilize is extremely satisfying. And it makes courser really bad. Your opponent isn't going to be alive long enough for the lifegain to matter. There was one game where i couldnt put my opponent into kill range because if my pain seers untapped theyd most likely kill me.
Mogis's Marauder I'm torn on. I mean against non black decks this guy can give you free wins which is the type of card you want in a tier 1 deck. Elspeth fears this guy, as does mono green devotion. I think the new metagame may have a lot of splash damage against him so i cant comment on how good hes been in testing.
Master of the feast is a house. Every game i played him i ended up winning except one game where he was held down by a deadly recluse and i couldnt draw any of my 14 answers in the deck. The drawback appears massive but your opponent has 2 turns to answer or theyre dead. With two of these i fought through 3 grey merchants in a row to win the match. On curve your opponent simply doesnt have the mana to leverage their card advantage which is the only time card advantage actually matters. This false concerns about them drawing a kill spell on your upkeep is silly. In 20 matches that happened exactly 1 time. And unless they draw crackling doom theyre getting crushed. Oh and this guy makes nissa and sarkhan seem really mediocre.
At this point im torn on this deck. I've taken down legit mbd, junk midrange, rabble red, and selesnya aggro shockingly. I've been called lucky after a narrow win by a player that made several misplays. This deck punishes mistakes that you make, there was one game I could have won but one misplay lost me the game. I had no board , was facing lethal next turn, opponent was at two, had mogis's maruader and spiteful returned in my hand, had 5 mana. Mogis's couldnt punch through two grey merchants but if i had played spiteful returned into mogis's marauder the attack trigger would have won the game. I have gotten more players than i care to remember down to 1-2 life. A removal suite+1 sweeper is almost an instant win against this deck but i am learning to combat that (thoughtseize postboard). Boon of erebos doesn't stop -x/-x effects. Molting Snakeskin might be a good card but being 2 for 1ed is punishing for an aggro deck. Against healthy removal suites you want to go wide, against sweepers you want to go deep. Sign in Blood is a win condition lol. Festergloom makes rabble red look terrible.
And apparently I misread your post, I didn't sleep last night and i swear i read divination/draw/discard/+1/+1 trigger. I thought i was reading you could loot after divination resolved.
Still think someone misunderstood how twinflame works though. Andddd apparently this is under some scenario where you have 6 mana dorks and cast both twinflames......guess it wasn't a rules misunderstanding, but a misunderstanding how the the game works in real life.
Twinflame or any strive card can't target the same creature more than once according to their rulings page. And since copy effects only copy the original state of a creature and no power/toughness alterations, how exactly would twinflame kill your opponent? And how would the Ascendancy P/T triggers win you the game if an opponent has an untapped creature on turn 5 which is perfectly likely.
If you cast a spell it must be on the stack to trigger ascendancy's looting trigger which means the looting will resolve before your spell resolves, the same with the untap triggers, you can't just stick a trigger in the stack where ever you want. But you do get to decide if the untap trigger or the looting trigger resolve first since they trigger simultaneously.
Just want people to understand the stack and rulings as they develop the deck. Because I'm seeing startling conclusions like you can make 24 creatures with a game winning twinflame, and that you can manipulate the stack anyway you want.
Hur dur dur it's a dumb creature deck, creatures are dumb, well then why can't anyone beat a dumb creature deck at the second highest level of competition? No one is that lucky, bad players blame luck, if the game was so dumb and forgiving we wouldn't have any well known, high caliber players, but we know who is good at magic, not who is lucky at magic. Over thousands of games skilled players separate themselves from lucky players, and people who blame luck or dumbed down gameplay will never become an iota better at magic.
Flaming Warning -Cythare
So everyone is terrible because no one plays new cards? I'm going to need you to explain the correlation between new cards and community skill level.
I wouldn't say dumb creature decks require no skill. I've played enough draft to see just because you both have 7 creatures on the field and you're at a lower life total doesn't mean you can't win in 2 turns if you attack properly and anticipate blocks. I've been in what would appear to be locked board states and have overcome creature and lifepoint deficits with creative maneuvering and a little boldness. The game is as dumb as you make it for yourself. These people talking about dumb aggro decks, turning creatures sideways, great decks for beginners. Turn 2 in an aggro deck you can easily have 5 different spells you can cast, creature decks aren't dumb, just the people that lose to them. I guess Tom Ross is a force because dumb creature decks are so simple to play.
What is the general board-state and hand-texture for going off? I'm imagining a Jeskai Ascendancy, two mana dorks, and two or more cantrips in hand.
Doesn't the combo just fizzle if you draw too many 2 or greater CMC cantrips? Like you net one mana a turn: +2 off your dorks when ascendancy triggers and -1 for the cost of the cantrip.
4 Tormented Hero
4 Gnarled Scarhide
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Pain Seer
4 Spiteful Returned
4 Mogis's Marauder
3 Master of the Feast
4 Crippling Blight
3 Boon of Erebos
2 Bile Blight
3 Sign in Blood
Lands 21
21 Swamp
3 Thoughtseize
2 Bile Blight
2 Pharika's Cure
2 Dark Betrayal
2 Festergloom
1 Master of the Feast
1 Feast on the Fallen
2 Mardu Skullhunter
Festergloom seems like insane sideboard tech against Rabble Red. I went with Pain Seer mainboard with Mardu Skullhunter in the sideboard since skullhunter is never really hitting a crucial card. Feast on the Fallen seems excellent with the new fetchlands and painlands that will be running rampant. With black in a lot of the popular creatures Dark Betrayal is going to be a house. I think Bile Blight will become Murderous Cut somewhere. I think 4 Mogis's Marauder might be wrong since black might be splashed incidentally in a lot of decks and could become a split for Herald of torment. I actually really like Master of the Feast who dodges Stoke the Flames, Banishing Light the turn he makes them draw it, Anger of the Gods, Mardu Charm, which I think will be extremely common going forward. Yes everything dies to something, but dodging that much common removal makes him amazing.
Sign in Blood can be used as a burn spell to end the game but could also be a removal spell. I like how the deck lines up against what we will expect to see. A lot of people taking 4 or 5 damage from their own lands, tripping over ambitious manabases while just a streamlined threat and answer package comes at them.
Anyway, some of the new cards are extremely disturbing Dutiful Return especially considering the flavor text, and Rite of the Serpent is very macabre. Oh and Grim Haruspex, I think he has his hands in someone's brain.
^ this is the archetype wheel for magic the gathering. Any semi-competitive deck should fall under one of those classifications.