Yeah, that's a bit extreme. Many of the cards on the ban list aren't that obvious. And like I said, I've been wary of Stoneforge for years, having faced off against it in both Legacy and Standard. But as powerful as it is, I have to agree that the format could definitely survive its unbanning. It might not be the healthiest card, but it's also not the worst offender on the list.
Preordain would be nice, but I think we still have awhile before that card can come back under WOTC's terms. It would help control, sure, but most likely it would help out combo more. Being better at hitting land drops also means it's better at hitting combo pieces. And I think Serum Visions is still a perfectly fine cantrip. In some ways, I like it better.
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Jitte is certainly part of the equation, but I don't think the lack of it makes SFM somehow weaker by multiples in Modern. Jitte isn't exactly crushing 4/5s and 8/8s, and there are plenty of other options to find with Stoneforge. Still, not having access to it weakens SFM slightly for sure. But again, we're basically ignoring the ThopterSword package, as well as the fact that 4 time out of 5, the Stoneblade player was getting Batterskull anyway. Even without thoptersword, I don't think downgrading Jitte to SoFaF is as much of a loss of power as one might think it is, especially when you consider how the formats are different.
Perhaps "brick wall" was the wrong term. "Problematic obstacle" might be better. I wasn't trying to say that Death's shadow decks would suffer against SFM, just that the two strategies are comparably powerful. Death's Shadow still needs to win through damage, and while they can easily overrun or deal with a 4/4 vig, lifelinker, it's still a problem for them if they can't. Discard is an answer to everything sure. And Kcommand is a brilliant response to SFM in general. But that doesn't mean SFM just folds to DS. Just that they will interact with each other, and probably a lot. Spell pierce and dispel are cards after all.
More devolving into minor battles about card interaction (a fruitless exercise), but I'll still bite: My point about Revolt Zoo was that things need to go right for the Zoo deck in order to beat turn 3 Skull. Almost no deck in the format can beat a nut draw from Revolt Zoo that culminates in an Atarka's Command on turn 3. But the fundamental flaw of that deck is their inconsistency. The type of hands that beat Turn 3 Batterskull are the types of hands that beat almost any resistance. But the mediocre and medium hands are what count, and I can tell you that for the average game that doesn't involve nut draws, Turn 3 Batterskull is a big problem for many aggro decks. Drawing a single SFM isn't a "nut draw", it's pretty average. Drawing the exact 8 cards that beat it is a much harder feat. Which is fine. We would lose some aggro. I'm sure Burn would still be fine, as would some variation of CoCo. Revolt might suffer but it's only Tier 2/3 anyway.
Again, the whole point was simply to say, don't underestimate SFM. I'm not saying she would be an issue. In fact, I already stated that I think she would be fine right now. It's been a long time coming, but I do think the format in its current state could handle SFM reasonably well. U/W decks would likely stand to gain the most, and they could certainly use the boost. But I know for a fact that some of the same people complaining about Death's Shadow right now would be back here after Mystic's return, arguing about how oppressive she has become. It's the circle of life here. I was just trying to inject some logic, and remind people that balanced or not, Stoneforge is still a force to be reckoned with, and not some clunky package that doesn't jive with existing U/W deck, as was suggested by Bizzycola on the previous page.
No need to keep this particular argument going though. I basically agree with everyone if the line is "Stoneforge should be heavily considered to come off the ban list". We could talk about theoretical interactions for pages, but I'm not interested in doing that. It's all speculation anyway. The bottom line is that Stoneforge is more than playable in this format, which is why we're even discussing it being unbanned. I'm also strongly of the opinion that the format is relatively fine right now, and doesn't need a shakeup just yet. But I would put Stoneforge on my list of cards I'd like to see considered for freedom, alongside Jace, Twin, and BBE.
I have no doubt that this is what happened when it was in Standard, but Modern is a different format. Things that warp Standard don't always warp Modern. Emrakul tPE, Reflector Mage, and Smuggler's Copter see practically no play in Modern. Saheeli combo is very borderline on being Modern playable. And we have actual proof that SFM doesn't warp every format it's in, because it's just barely even playable in Legacy these days.
The best case scenario for SFM is a turn 3 Batterskull, assuming that a creature that dies to every removal spell in the format can survive a turn. Is a turn 3 4/4 lifelink vigilance really more powerful than some of the stuff the DS decks are doing? Is it more powerful than Dredge dumping 10 power on the board on turn 2? Is it more powerful than Revolt Zoo putting 10 hastey power on the board on turn 1? The fact is that SFM's best play is not the most powerful thing you can do in Modern. It's good, and would certainly see play, but I have a hard time believing SFM would be broken, especially as long as DS decks still exist.
Wait, so you're going to overlook nearly 7 years of Stoneblade being a Tier 1 deck in Legacy as evidence that it's not playable in that format? Yikes. Stoneforge is still played in Legacy, even if it's not at it's Tier 1 dominance. And now that Top is banned and Miracles stands to fall from grace, it's pretty likely that Stoneblade regains a good share of the metagame again.
I have no doubt that after a few years and perhaps a few other unbans (Bloodbraid and Twin as examples), the Stoneblade package would prove to be "fine" in modern. I was simply reminding Bizzycola, and the thread in general, not to overlook Stoneforge Mystic's power.
Your specific questions are subjective, but I will still respond to them:
Batterskull on turn 3 is definitely going to be a brick wall for many Death's Shadow decks, and the card advantage helps against their Plan B attrition strategy as well. More powerful? subjective. Good enough to be playable against them? Absolutely.
Similarly, having a Batterskull in play to gain life and eat Zombies from Dredge each turn is one of the best ways I can think of to stabilize, short of SB-level stuff like Anger of the Gods. It's not great, but it's better than just trying to race or block with a 4/5 that doesn't have lifelink or vigilance. Same goes for Revolt Zoo. I play that deck, and while it's possible to get through a brick wall lifelinker on turn 3, you need a serious nut draw to do it. Without a very aggressive start and a copy of Atarka's Command, I'd be in serious trouble against T3 'Skull.
And in all the grindy attrition matches, Stoneforge is going to shine. Against most combo, she's probably too clunky, but if it's your only threat and the rest of your deck can interact with said combo deck, she's still serviceable.
I'd be happy to see Stoneforge come off. I don't think she's too overpowered, and I agree that Modern is a different format than Legacy or Caw-Blade Standard was. But that doesn't mean she isn't powerful enough to warp the metagame around her, even if that effect is somewhat temporary. I'd rather see Stoneforge come off than something like Misstep. And while I think SFM would also boost decks like Abzan, it would probably help U/W/x more than anything else, which would be an improvement in color balance for sure. Just don't overlook the fact that she dominated Standard alongside her best friend Jace until they were both banned, and was the #1 deck in Legacy for years. If she gets released into Modern, you better be ready to beat her or join her.
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No I understand that cheating it into play is what makes SFM good, I was simply saying that I don't think UW control would want to clog up its list with a creature based strategy.
I also didn't say it shouldn't be unbanned because it would be better in Abzan than than UW or D&T I was simply stating this is a really unwarranted hope. I actually agree that a very Conservative attitude towards preservation of the power level of BGx decks does seem to be the reasoning behind peoples logic as to why other colors should get tools that are actually on par with it.
I get responses all the time about how "x would invalidate Jund" or "y would make discard unplayable" and I disagree those decks will always be viable decks but they are not afforded some protectionist element in the meta-game that says an other wise fair card must be banned because it makes TS/IoK slightly worse.
I just wanted to chime in on this, as I think there is a slight misunderstanding about Stoneforge Mystic's power level.
First, I would say that U/W decks would absolutely be happy to adopt Stoneforge Mystic into their list. It's not exactly "clogging up their list" to add 6-12 cards to the deck to support a SFM engine. It's more like "enhancing their list with a dozen more powerful cards than they previously had access to". Even with just 4 Snapcaster, 4 Stoneforge, and 2 Equipments, it's a very compact and tidy package that covers your finishers as well as your card advantage. But in truth, we know from experience that the Stoneforge engine is powerful enough to warp entire FORMATS around it, which means that one person tries it, someone else wins with it, and by week 3 everyone else is figuring out how to beat 'em or join 'em. By week 5, all the smart kids have joined.
Point is, U/W would happily play a SFM package, as would Abzan, as would Esper, Naya, and various other existing shells. Which of those would end up on top is certainly a mystery, but I'm sure Abzan and U/W would be top contenders given their current power level. Adding SFM wouldn't diversify anything, it would just become the new engine that the metagame revolves around. And I'm not even taking into account the fact that ThopterSword is legal now, and would love to play in the sandbox with our favorite Kor Artificer.
Comparing Steelshaper's Gift to SFM is unjust. Steelshaper's Gift is not a 2-for-1, and does not provide a body for your equipment that can also cheat said equipment into play. If it did, people would play it.
I also want to chime in on Mental Misstep. I was active in Legacy when the card was legal, and it was an unfun time. Everything was warped around it, and while that allowed a few cool decks to actually shine (like Natural Order RUG/Bant and 1-drop Zoo), overall the format was pretty bad. I could wax more about why this was the case, but the gist of it was that everyone was trying to play Misstep, but the only decks that truly benefited from it were control decks that were already trying to answer everything on the stack. I'd rather see them reprint Daze for Modern than to let Misstep back in.
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what do you think about going back to 24 lands, but mainboard my highest cmc would be 3? from my previous list, i swapped 1 pulse 1 batterskull mainboard for 1 ooze 1 liliana in the sb. i shaved off 1 tec edge, going down to 2, and replacing it with 1 inquisition...
Edit: with KTK being legal aside from windswept heath, what would you like to see in a junk deck thats from KTK
The changes you made are generally fine, though I think 4 Ooze is one too many in the MD and I'd rather have 4 Thoughtseize in most cases than the 4th IoK, but that's assuming Affinity and Burn aren't above average in popularity.
My big contention is with the use of 4 Path to Exile. Path is a decent removal spell, but the drawback is very real in Modern. There are many times where you want removal, but do not want to give them a land. It almost completely nullifies the entire Tec Edge package, and is a liability against any deck that wants to out-mana you or thrives on tempo. While it does get rid of cards like Wurmcoil that would otherwise be difficult to deal with, I'm still not sold on more than a couple copies in the 75. Slaughter Pact and Dismember are often easier to cast and more of a blowout, and they don't ramp your opponent. They have their drawbacks, but in my experience you can still efficiently use them to you advantage and mitigate their downsides most of the time.
My recommendation would be to cut the Paths entirely from the maindeck, with maybe 1-2 copies in the board for those Wurmcoil/Affinity/Tarmogoyf/Persist matchups. The rest of the time, I'd much rather NOT ramp my opponent. Similarly, I'd keep the 3 Tec Edges unless you really only want them to fight the occasional manland. But to me, cutting them off of 4 or 5 lands is often the edge that wins us the game.
If you do want to play 4 Path, I would recommend switching things up a bit and focusing on a more even 3-color manabase. With the extra fetchlands, Knight of the Reliquary gets better, and there is more incentive to play him alongside stuff like Path when you want to get aggressive sooner. But for traditional BG/x, giving our opponents free cards is generally a bad deal for us.
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Blade Splicer is still a 2-for-1 while Mantis Rider is not. You do not get the Lava Spike if they were holding up a removal spell from Rider. You do still get the 1/1. A 1/1 is not that scary obviously, but against stuff like x/1's and planeswalkers, it's still relevant. And yeah, you generally are running Resto alongside Blade Splicer, so the potential for even more value is always present in your opponent's decision (do I kill the Splicer and deal with a Golem or kill the Golem and lose to Resto?) Mantis Rider has none of these modes. Also, over the course of 4 turns unopposed, Splicer is just as much damage as Rider. I'd say they are on the same level of power, but I'd still take Splicer against a removal spell over the Mantis Rider. Any value is better than none value.
Figure of Destiny is still equivalent or better than Swiftspear in this deck. You pay 2 mana to get a 2/2, but you can pay the 2nd mana whenever is convenient. Swiftspear requires you pay mana to make a 2/3 as well, and doesn't scale beyond that. FOD can become a respectable 4/4 at EOT when you've been holding up countermagic. Swiftspear at best will be a Goblin Guide every turn at the cost of you tapping mana earlier than you'd like to. Swiftspear might deal more damage in the early game with a Burn-heavy hand, but Figure will be a much better threat off the top or when you are in a board stall of sorts. They don't fill the same niche, but I still think Figure is more playable in this deck than Swiftspear. Again, compare Swiftspear to Goblin Guide. We don't Goblin Guide. Granted, Figure is also a very rare sight these days, but he does show up from time to time. Figure is also a great Ranger target for those folks playing that card, but that's more typical of a Boros shell anyway. Again, in a Burn deck, Swiftspear is much better and it's not close, but we just aren't interested in being forced to play our spells pre-combat at all.
Jeskai Charm is fine. But it's still not as exciting to me as Electrolyze. Again, we have basically a Griptide/Flames of the Bloodhand/combat trick card that can be pretty relevant in many situations, but will rarely ever be better than a 1-for-1. Then we have Electrolyze, which always cycles (while still dealing 2), but can also be a 3-for-1. Big difference. Yes, Electro is narrower, but it's more powerful. Being able to clean up a Bob/Lili board and draw is insane. Hitting 2 Lingering Souls tokens for the final attack with Geist is better than Griptiding one of them for 3 mana. Clearing out chaff against Affinity, Twin, and Pod is uber relevant. Griptiding a threat against any of those decks is generally going to be lackluster. Pod/Twin get value from their dudes, and Affinity will just replay it for next to nothing. Yeah, it's a timewalk, but not nearly as much as the Timewalk + draw a card that Electrolyze can be. Again, I could see Jeskai Charm being great in a Control-heavy, threat-heavy meta that features a lot of Wurmcoils, Goyfs, Colonnades, and Planeswalkers. But if Pod/Affinity/Twin are still a lion's share of the meta, and I'm in the market for a 3-drop instant removal flex spell, it's still Electrolyze for me. However, I will test Jeskai Charm for myself in the coming weeks to confirm my suspicions. Again, I'm mostly rating the cards based on inherent card advantage: Jeskai doesn't have it, Electrolyze does.
Boros Charm still has 3 modes for us. Yes we will rarely use the doublestrike, but there will be times when it works as a removal spell against their blocker, or counts as more than 4 damage alongside a Steppe Lynx or Sword. Just imagine a double-striking Geist with a SoWAP on it. Talk about win more. Anyway, Boros Charm is preferable mostly because 2 mana for 4 damage is a much better rate than 3 mana for 4, and indestructible is a huge boon against mass removal or timely Decays.
I haven't had a lot of time for Magic lately, as I've been moving around Boston amongst friends while waiting to move into our new place this month. Next week I will start drafting Khans and testing out Modern again, as well as Legacy. I'm likely to focus on Legacy this season as we have an SCG tournament in October and then GP Jersey in November, and I haven't played RUG(real) Delver competitively in over a year. And it's not hard to admit how much I like my Brainstorms, Dazes, Stifles, and Wastelands alongside Delver.
That said, I will do my best to work on this archetype now that we are back to Established again. I was never the leading player with this deck, just the messenger, but maybe I'll get off my Goyf-high-horse and sleeve up some Jeskai cards at the next Modern tournament I go to. I've had a hankering to play Steppe Lynx for awhile now, so you may see me slinging a classic WUR shell soon, possibly even with a singleton Isochron Scepter for spice. Abrupt Decays be damned!
@joesoq, Yeah, hopefully we win game 1 against Ad Nauseam and then can find a way to beat Leyline or steal one of the other 2 games from them. Assuming they have about a %46 chance to draw an opening Leyline, you should still have a good chance of beating them at least once in SB games. You can either draw the answer to it, beat them anyway despite it, or they simply don't have it turn 0, which is a far greater than 55% chance of winning. Since we already have a good matchup against them, I wouldn't worry too much.
Bogles is the other deck I know of that uses Leyline consistently, outside of the card randomly appearing elsewhere like Burn at GP Kobe. Against Bogles though we have a much better chance fighting through the Leyline because our Decay effects and sweepers are still relevant. Against Bogles, I would definitely say it's worth mulliganing to a hand that does something through Leyline, such as finding your EE, or making sure you have at least 2 answers to their enchantments (even if it's 2 Decays). In that matchup, they generally are going all in, and we generally will win if we draw the right SB card, so mulliganing aggressively is worth it anyway. But still, if I opened with Liliana, IoK, Thoughtseize, Land, Land, Land, 2-drop, I'm snap-keeping that hand against them.
RE: Utter End; Basically you need a really good reason to want this over something like Maelstrom Pulse, and then realize that we only play 1-2 Pulses maindeck to begin with, and we almost never SB it. Specific removal/answers like Naturalize effects or Drown in Sorrow are fine in the board since they come in for specific matchups. But I would say unless you have a really heavy Tron presence locally, Utter End is utterly too expensive. Even then, you're going to pay 4 to Exile their Karn or Wurmcoil, yet you'll still be behind since their lategame is so strong. If Tron is pushing you around, I still think Aven Mindcensor, Stony Silence, and Fulminator will help you out much more there anyway.
Cards like Damnation, Thrun, Sorin, Sowing Salt, and Slaughter Games are objectively much more powerful at the 4-mana slot than simply another "Remove target permanent from play" effect, regardless of how flexible it is. You'd need a really good reason to play this card over those other options methinks.
what's your solution, when a combo deck(say, ad naus) goes turn 0 leyline of sanctity(well this doesn't happen always, but sometimes you do get unlucky). Suddenly our discards go dead. do you aggressively mulligan to a "disenchant" card come game 2?
I can't say I have much experience personally against Leylines, as they are pretty rare in my meta and definitely pretty rare on turn 0, but here is how I would approach the situation.:
1) Don't give up on that Game 1. If you have a discard-heavy hand and they have Leyline, it's very bad news for sure, but we might still have a chance. Resolve a threat and do your best to interact with them (Decay their mana rocks, etc.). Leyline is one less card they have to combo with, so you never know.
2) In Game 2 and 3 (wait are you expecting Leyline Game 1? That's a bit extreme...), you certainly bring in all the Disenchant effects, but you probably only have 2 total, so mulliganing to find one is not an option. Again, if they have the Leyline turn 0 to your discard hand, it's bad beats. But if they don't have it, you probably crush them. It's high-variance, but you're still favored statistically. It's obviously ideal to keep a hand with Pulse or Unravel the Aether in it, but you can't expect to draw those every time they have Leyline: you have to learn to play around it. And again, when they don't have it, you shred their hand. Now, if your 7-card opener is already clunky or doesn't have a threat and is very discard heavy, you might consider shipping it in hopes of more SB material. But if you're hand wins against non-Leyline but loses if they have it, I'm pretty sure you still keep that hand.
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As Homeland said, ingenuity and trying out cards is a good thing... BUT...
...I think it's safe to say cards like Mantis Rider (theirs a few other 3 drops that are simply better), Treasure Cruise (God no), Monastery Swiftspear (Goblin Guide, Figure of D, Steppe Lynx are just better) will NOT see play in a competitive version of this deck.
Other than Brimaz and Geist, what are these better 3-drops? Also, Figure of Destiny and Goblin Guide are both much worse than Monastery Swiftspear in here.
As for Jeskai Charm, I think it's the worst 3 mana, modern legal charms. More to the point; it literally adds -nothing- that the deck doesn't already do with less mana. Maybe... MAYBE you would play it if you ran Pyromancers AND Rabblemaster but even then it would still be the crappiest card in the deck.
First, the versatility is important. Second, are you seriously saying that this is worse than Naya Charm, Temur Charm, and Grixis Charm? Third, with an unblocked Geist it says "Jeskai Charm deals 2 damage to target player, you gain 8 life". That is often useful.
Winterflame would be awesome if you could draw card. And I really think you should at least be playing 1 electrolyze or more. Deflecting Palm -may- be a sb slot (but why not just run Dispel or some other countermagic? Typically when you get too cute, you get 1 nice win and 5 bad loses).
Agreed.
Geist, Vendilion Clique, and Blade Splicer are all going to get a bit more value than Mantis Rider. As Ari Lax put it, "Dies to Lightning Bolt, moving on." I realize this applies to a host of other relevant cards in Modern, but none of them cost 3 mana and do nothing other than attack. Mantis Rider is certainly pushed, and it's probably fine to play it in this deck, but it doesn't really fix any of our issues in the way that Giest does. All our threats trade easily with Bolt and other removal, having our 3-drop do the same is not ideal. Clique plays well with our instants and can healthily disrupt an opponent. Splicer provides 2 bodies and synergy with Resto, Mirran Crusader is stellar against BG/x decks where x = anything but red. Cards like Kitchen Finks and Swords provide resilience. Mantis Rider is a Serra Avenger with a Lava Spike Stapled together. Great value, but just a hair below ideal for us. It will be awesome when it lives, and very tempo-inefficient when it doesn't.
Monastery Swiftspear is similarly underpowered in my opinion for this deck. Swiftspear is probably fine in Burn specifically, but they run 24+ spells that all go to the face, and even there I think the timing issue will be a problem sometimes. But here, we have 6 spells at most that might go the face, while the rest are meant to be saved for opportune moments. Being forced to Path their guy when they.... don't have one? Pretty awkward. Being forced to play Remand on your turn? Oh wait. Without a suite of spells that we WANT to cast on out precombat mainphase, Swiftspear is easily much worse than Goblin Guide. Figure of Destiny is a whole other ballpark in terms of what it does, but it's still better here in my opinion, just given the fact that Swiftspear will be a 1/2 so very often.
As for Jeskai Charm, it's most likely better than the others you listed, but that's not really the point. I still think it's also a notch below playable for this deck. It has synergy with Young Pyro, but most WUR Delverers aren't running him, and outside of that there isn't much incentive to invest 3 mana here. If the third mode was Temur's Mana Leak or something, it might be closer, but even still all the options on it are really expensive. Boros Charm is a much better rate (with admittedly less options for us), and even then we have trouble justifying the cost of that card. It's good, but it's not breaking the mold for value here. The variety is nice, but when it comes down to brass tacks, this deck is very mana-tight and has a hard enough time resolving Geist on time as it is. We struggle between wanting to play a threat and hold up countermagic, and none of these cards really fix that problem.
To somewhat contradict myself, I could see Jeskai Charm as a 1-of being a reasonable meta call when stuff like Wurmcoil is a big problem. And Mantis Rider will probably see play despite trading poorly with Bolt (My hunch is she'd be better in a Blue Zoo shell though). And Monastery Swiftspear will probably see play in Burn, and might be reasonable in a Boros or Blue Boros deck sporting Steppe Lynx, Goblin Guide, Delver, Snap, and 24 Burn-ish spells. But none of the above are quite perfect for this deck, nor do they fix our inherent problems with Midrange matchups in the metagame.
Yeah, EWitness is definitely stronger. And even Witness is a bit weak outside of graveyard/combo decks. It's possible that Hordemate is a lot better in a deck that attacks consistently such as Zoo, but we only have 11 2-drops and maybe 16 creatures to trigger Raid with, so it's less than stellar here.
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I hate when Bob dies. I cry a little. I know that's his job, but dammit Bob, you've eaten ALOT of Bolts. Well, my little skinny friend, you have a new ally. The next time you go down on the battlefield, your sweet saviour, on a shiny horsey will save you bro.
Because I like Bob and Tom (but he usually sits in a place of exile), I will be running shiney horsey guy.
/LSV Rated him 2.0.. the fool.
Very amusing post sir. I definitely laughed. And while Timely Hordemate isn't terrible, it's unfortunately not quite the second coming of BBE, and I think it's just a bit underpowered.
Bloodbraid always hit something relevant, and often that something was a removal spell or discard. Additionally, Bloodbraid has haste, which is often like a free Lightning Bolt. So for 4 mana you might get something like a 3/2 body, a Lava Spike, and an Abrupt Decay or Tarmogoyf. Pretty insane obviously.
Timely Hordemate only can provide the 3/2 body and occasionally the Goyf or Bob that happened to die already. But if you haven't got a Goyf or Bob in the yard, or if you can't attack for whatever reason, you're just holding a 3/2 vanilla do-nothing for 4 mana. Not a good rate. It's possible this guy is reasonable against heavy-removal decks, but in those cases there are better spells at 4+ mana, such as Thrun, Sorin, Garruk, Batterskull, etc.
Definitely test him out, but at first glance he seems too underpowered. But again, very humorous post!
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Yeah Modern is so starved for good card draw in general that it would not surprise me if both Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time see moderate to heavy play in control and combo decks. This one in particular is obviously pretty perfect in a Twin list, and as a 1-2 of I don't see it clashing with Snapcaster too often. It's a bad card in your opener for sure, but it can dig you out of a troubled spot very quickly. Being able to snap this off for UU, then find and resolve an Exarch, and then untap for the win is pretty neat stuff. It's good against both combo decks and midrange/grind decks. Certainly will be picking up a few of these for the Twin list. It might even be enough incentive for me to drop green for awhile and leave the Goyfs at home, since I don't think they play well together. But in straight U/R, I have to imagine Dig Through Time is real.
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I don't think of souls as a 3 drop. Most of the time I pitch it to lily and cast it for 2.
It's still a 3-drop. At the very least, you had to first cast Liliana (a 3-drop also) before you could play Souls at 2 mana. Yes, it's a curve consideration, but with your overdose of 3's, Lingering Souls is already destined to be another clunky card that's difficult for you to cast in a timely fashion.
We always have a plethora of options at the 3-mana slot, but cards like Dismember and Slaughter Pact are much more flexible than something like Lingering Souls. And I'm pretty sure you want a few copies of those removal spells in this deck over some of your other choices. We need answers more than threats in a lot of situations, so maxing out on threats can be a detriment to our gameplan. Abzan Charm is cool, but Path/Dismember/Pact are all more efficient removal spells.
I would agree with the others in that Aven Mindcensor is SB material only for this deck, and that 24-25 lands is much safer than 23. If you want to mess with people via Mindcensor tricks, you're better off just playing G/W Bears. We would sacrifice too much power to fully commit to that strategy, and GW decks will just do it better than us. (Rule #1: Never be a worse version of something else) I'm also unsure about the full set of Tec Edges, usually 3 is a good balance. Drawing 2 at once is a fast ticket to Mulligantown. You also want the full set of Marsh Flats, or at least swap the missing 2 fetches for Windswept Heaths. 4 Tombs isn't necessary once you have the full set of 8 fetches.
I also am not a huge fan of Kitchen Finks, and would rather see something like Courser in this slot if you really want the creature. At most I'd run 2 3-mana green dudes, but Lingering Souls just seems better in that slot if you're splashing white. I'd max out on Souls before any other 3-drops honestly. You can't make the famed +1 Liliana pitch Souls play very often if you're only running a couple Souls. It's perhaps the best 2-card combo we have against fellow midrange fair decks.
Funeral Charm is pretty sweet actually. If you're looking for something that doubles up as Disfigure and Inquisition #4, this is a good place to look. It's a bit low-power, but the flexibility means it will almost always be relevant. If you can't think of any matchups where it's dead, go for it.
The reason I lose the big-dumb-dudes matchups is because:
1. they are not terribly vulnerable to IoK or abrupt decay.
2. their creatures are bigger than goyf/scooze.
It seems laughable but bosk banneret into leaf-crowned elder into dauntless dourbarkprey upon is a sequence a 3/3 ooze or 3/4 tarmogoyf don't line up very well against. I mean when all goes well you t2 decay the bosk t3 liliana the elder and t4 maelstrom pulse the dourbark - but sometimes our curve is a lot more like IoK-bob-souls. or nothing-scooze-lili.
What can we do about a 7/7 trample on t4? pulse... and yeah liliana if they don't have any other guys out, and... block+dismember if they dont have vines of vastwood or something.
As I say, that treefolk deck loses to a lot of stuff so who cares, but I find when some janky deck is just raining 4+ cmc creatures it is a pretty unfavourable matchup for $2500 junk.
Maybe I'm underestimating how we should perform against Treefolk, But from the examples you’ve given I still don’t see how it’s an issue. First, let’s analyze your reasons:
1. They are still vulnerable to IoK/Decay. In the example you gave, Bosk Banneret is a key component to the Treefolk player pulling ahead. I would imagine there are other enablers that cost less than 3 mana in their deck, or else they aren’t doing much until turn 4. Iok/Decay should slow them down while you dig for better answers.
2. Their creatures are likely bigger most of the time, but not always. Goyf should be 4/5 by the time you’re entering combat with them, and Scooze might be enemic in the early game but it’s a house in the late game, after you’ve discarded and killed all their major threats.
Also, that sequence ending with Prey Upon loses really hard to something like Slaughter Pact or Dismember from you, so while it crushed you that one time, it’s exactly the kind of play you normally can capitalize on. Also, IoK takes out their Vines or Prey Upon if you can’t play around them.
After sideboard, there’s a lot of things you can do to shore things up. Damnation, Batterskull, and Thrun are all stellar. Any extra removal that hits their threats comes in. Fulminator Mage might be pretty good if your plan is to cut off all their cheaper enablers to strand the expensive cards in hand, and it helps mitigate Dourbark a bit. Oozes are better than you make them out to be, and you should be running all of them post board. Early game you just trade with their dudes, late game Ooze will clean up house and present a threat big enough to rival theirs.
We run up to 5 removal spells that kill big dumb green guys (Pulse/Pact/Dismember), and an additional 4 Liliana, not to mention the postboard stuff like Damnation, which is absolutely devastating for them. Add to that just the 4 Thoughtseize and you’re talking about 13-15 cards that interact with their fatties. IoK and Abrupt Decay should stall their early plays and allow you to get in early damage via Goyf/Bob/Treetop, while late game you can fly over them with Spirits and hold the fort in whatever way necessary.
If you really want to beat them, it shouldn’t be that hard. You just need to disable whatever threat you can’t deal with via discard/early interaction, and choose wisely on your Pact targets. If this matchup is really causing you grief, run a 2nd Damnation in the board. I don’t see how they can beat that card.
I realize that decks that just spew a ton of threats at us are going to be a little challenging, but they should still be very winnable matchups. With only Treefolk synergy going on, it’s easy to break up their “combos” and reduce their bigger threats down to normal size. And in the end, it’s true that this deck is really not something you should worry about. If it’s popular in your local meta, Sideboard and adjust accordingly, but don’t let it skew your decisions and deckbuilding for a big tournament. Testing against Tier 3 decks will not improve your skills for a serious competition unfortunately.
@xxhellfirexx, Blood Moon is old news for us. It's difficult to beat, but not if you're prepared. It's also one of the reasons to play this deck over Jund (at least prior to the Khanslaught fetches). If you are ever paired against a Mono-Red, U/R, or perhaps Affinity deck, you fetch basics aggressively. And/or leave up Abrupt Decay mana. Coincidentally, we also have 7 discard spells to strip Moon before it lands. SB cards like Unravel the Aether (or if you really want, Seal of Primordium) also help cover the issue, while typically being decent against their other cards in most cases (ascension, plating, twin, batterskull, threads etc.). Blood Moon will certainly get you from time to time, but if you are prepared your chances of flat out losing to it are much much smaller. And Blood Moon just got reasonably worse in the new meta with the new fetches. So fear not, it’s not the deathknell you might think.
Preordain would be nice, but I think we still have awhile before that card can come back under WOTC's terms. It would help control, sure, but most likely it would help out combo more. Being better at hitting land drops also means it's better at hitting combo pieces. And I think Serum Visions is still a perfectly fine cantrip. In some ways, I like it better.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Perhaps "brick wall" was the wrong term. "Problematic obstacle" might be better. I wasn't trying to say that Death's shadow decks would suffer against SFM, just that the two strategies are comparably powerful. Death's Shadow still needs to win through damage, and while they can easily overrun or deal with a 4/4 vig, lifelinker, it's still a problem for them if they can't. Discard is an answer to everything sure. And Kcommand is a brilliant response to SFM in general. But that doesn't mean SFM just folds to DS. Just that they will interact with each other, and probably a lot. Spell pierce and dispel are cards after all.
More devolving into minor battles about card interaction (a fruitless exercise), but I'll still bite: My point about Revolt Zoo was that things need to go right for the Zoo deck in order to beat turn 3 Skull. Almost no deck in the format can beat a nut draw from Revolt Zoo that culminates in an Atarka's Command on turn 3. But the fundamental flaw of that deck is their inconsistency. The type of hands that beat Turn 3 Batterskull are the types of hands that beat almost any resistance. But the mediocre and medium hands are what count, and I can tell you that for the average game that doesn't involve nut draws, Turn 3 Batterskull is a big problem for many aggro decks. Drawing a single SFM isn't a "nut draw", it's pretty average. Drawing the exact 8 cards that beat it is a much harder feat. Which is fine. We would lose some aggro. I'm sure Burn would still be fine, as would some variation of CoCo. Revolt might suffer but it's only Tier 2/3 anyway.
Again, the whole point was simply to say, don't underestimate SFM. I'm not saying she would be an issue. In fact, I already stated that I think she would be fine right now. It's been a long time coming, but I do think the format in its current state could handle SFM reasonably well. U/W decks would likely stand to gain the most, and they could certainly use the boost. But I know for a fact that some of the same people complaining about Death's Shadow right now would be back here after Mystic's return, arguing about how oppressive she has become. It's the circle of life here. I was just trying to inject some logic, and remind people that balanced or not, Stoneforge is still a force to be reckoned with, and not some clunky package that doesn't jive with existing U/W deck, as was suggested by Bizzycola on the previous page.
No need to keep this particular argument going though. I basically agree with everyone if the line is "Stoneforge should be heavily considered to come off the ban list". We could talk about theoretical interactions for pages, but I'm not interested in doing that. It's all speculation anyway. The bottom line is that Stoneforge is more than playable in this format, which is why we're even discussing it being unbanned. I'm also strongly of the opinion that the format is relatively fine right now, and doesn't need a shakeup just yet. But I would put Stoneforge on my list of cards I'd like to see considered for freedom, alongside Jace, Twin, and BBE.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Wait, so you're going to overlook nearly 7 years of Stoneblade being a Tier 1 deck in Legacy as evidence that it's not playable in that format? Yikes. Stoneforge is still played in Legacy, even if it's not at it's Tier 1 dominance. And now that Top is banned and Miracles stands to fall from grace, it's pretty likely that Stoneblade regains a good share of the metagame again.
I have no doubt that after a few years and perhaps a few other unbans (Bloodbraid and Twin as examples), the Stoneblade package would prove to be "fine" in modern. I was simply reminding Bizzycola, and the thread in general, not to overlook Stoneforge Mystic's power.
Your specific questions are subjective, but I will still respond to them:
Batterskull on turn 3 is definitely going to be a brick wall for many Death's Shadow decks, and the card advantage helps against their Plan B attrition strategy as well. More powerful? subjective. Good enough to be playable against them? Absolutely.
Similarly, having a Batterskull in play to gain life and eat Zombies from Dredge each turn is one of the best ways I can think of to stabilize, short of SB-level stuff like Anger of the Gods. It's not great, but it's better than just trying to race or block with a 4/5 that doesn't have lifelink or vigilance. Same goes for Revolt Zoo. I play that deck, and while it's possible to get through a brick wall lifelinker on turn 3, you need a serious nut draw to do it. Without a very aggressive start and a copy of Atarka's Command, I'd be in serious trouble against T3 'Skull.
And in all the grindy attrition matches, Stoneforge is going to shine. Against most combo, she's probably too clunky, but if it's your only threat and the rest of your deck can interact with said combo deck, she's still serviceable.
I'd be happy to see Stoneforge come off. I don't think she's too overpowered, and I agree that Modern is a different format than Legacy or Caw-Blade Standard was. But that doesn't mean she isn't powerful enough to warp the metagame around her, even if that effect is somewhat temporary. I'd rather see Stoneforge come off than something like Misstep. And while I think SFM would also boost decks like Abzan, it would probably help U/W/x more than anything else, which would be an improvement in color balance for sure. Just don't overlook the fact that she dominated Standard alongside her best friend Jace until they were both banned, and was the #1 deck in Legacy for years. If she gets released into Modern, you better be ready to beat her or join her.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
I just wanted to chime in on this, as I think there is a slight misunderstanding about Stoneforge Mystic's power level.
First, I would say that U/W decks would absolutely be happy to adopt Stoneforge Mystic into their list. It's not exactly "clogging up their list" to add 6-12 cards to the deck to support a SFM engine. It's more like "enhancing their list with a dozen more powerful cards than they previously had access to". Even with just 4 Snapcaster, 4 Stoneforge, and 2 Equipments, it's a very compact and tidy package that covers your finishers as well as your card advantage. But in truth, we know from experience that the Stoneforge engine is powerful enough to warp entire FORMATS around it, which means that one person tries it, someone else wins with it, and by week 3 everyone else is figuring out how to beat 'em or join 'em. By week 5, all the smart kids have joined.
Point is, U/W would happily play a SFM package, as would Abzan, as would Esper, Naya, and various other existing shells. Which of those would end up on top is certainly a mystery, but I'm sure Abzan and U/W would be top contenders given their current power level. Adding SFM wouldn't diversify anything, it would just become the new engine that the metagame revolves around. And I'm not even taking into account the fact that ThopterSword is legal now, and would love to play in the sandbox with our favorite Kor Artificer.
Comparing Steelshaper's Gift to SFM is unjust. Steelshaper's Gift is not a 2-for-1, and does not provide a body for your equipment that can also cheat said equipment into play. If it did, people would play it.
I also want to chime in on Mental Misstep. I was active in Legacy when the card was legal, and it was an unfun time. Everything was warped around it, and while that allowed a few cool decks to actually shine (like Natural Order RUG/Bant and 1-drop Zoo), overall the format was pretty bad. I could wax more about why this was the case, but the gist of it was that everyone was trying to play Misstep, but the only decks that truly benefited from it were control decks that were already trying to answer everything on the stack. I'd rather see them reprint Daze for Modern than to let Misstep back in.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
The changes you made are generally fine, though I think 4 Ooze is one too many in the MD and I'd rather have 4 Thoughtseize in most cases than the 4th IoK, but that's assuming Affinity and Burn aren't above average in popularity.
My big contention is with the use of 4 Path to Exile. Path is a decent removal spell, but the drawback is very real in Modern. There are many times where you want removal, but do not want to give them a land. It almost completely nullifies the entire Tec Edge package, and is a liability against any deck that wants to out-mana you or thrives on tempo. While it does get rid of cards like Wurmcoil that would otherwise be difficult to deal with, I'm still not sold on more than a couple copies in the 75. Slaughter Pact and Dismember are often easier to cast and more of a blowout, and they don't ramp your opponent. They have their drawbacks, but in my experience you can still efficiently use them to you advantage and mitigate their downsides most of the time.
My recommendation would be to cut the Paths entirely from the maindeck, with maybe 1-2 copies in the board for those Wurmcoil/Affinity/Tarmogoyf/Persist matchups. The rest of the time, I'd much rather NOT ramp my opponent. Similarly, I'd keep the 3 Tec Edges unless you really only want them to fight the occasional manland. But to me, cutting them off of 4 or 5 lands is often the edge that wins us the game.
If you do want to play 4 Path, I would recommend switching things up a bit and focusing on a more even 3-color manabase. With the extra fetchlands, Knight of the Reliquary gets better, and there is more incentive to play him alongside stuff like Path when you want to get aggressive sooner. But for traditional BG/x, giving our opponents free cards is generally a bad deal for us.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Figure of Destiny is still equivalent or better than Swiftspear in this deck. You pay 2 mana to get a 2/2, but you can pay the 2nd mana whenever is convenient. Swiftspear requires you pay mana to make a 2/3 as well, and doesn't scale beyond that. FOD can become a respectable 4/4 at EOT when you've been holding up countermagic. Swiftspear at best will be a Goblin Guide every turn at the cost of you tapping mana earlier than you'd like to. Swiftspear might deal more damage in the early game with a Burn-heavy hand, but Figure will be a much better threat off the top or when you are in a board stall of sorts. They don't fill the same niche, but I still think Figure is more playable in this deck than Swiftspear. Again, compare Swiftspear to Goblin Guide. We don't Goblin Guide. Granted, Figure is also a very rare sight these days, but he does show up from time to time. Figure is also a great Ranger target for those folks playing that card, but that's more typical of a Boros shell anyway. Again, in a Burn deck, Swiftspear is much better and it's not close, but we just aren't interested in being forced to play our spells pre-combat at all.
Jeskai Charm is fine. But it's still not as exciting to me as Electrolyze. Again, we have basically a Griptide/Flames of the Bloodhand/combat trick card that can be pretty relevant in many situations, but will rarely ever be better than a 1-for-1. Then we have Electrolyze, which always cycles (while still dealing 2), but can also be a 3-for-1. Big difference. Yes, Electro is narrower, but it's more powerful. Being able to clean up a Bob/Lili board and draw is insane. Hitting 2 Lingering Souls tokens for the final attack with Geist is better than Griptiding one of them for 3 mana. Clearing out chaff against Affinity, Twin, and Pod is uber relevant. Griptiding a threat against any of those decks is generally going to be lackluster. Pod/Twin get value from their dudes, and Affinity will just replay it for next to nothing. Yeah, it's a timewalk, but not nearly as much as the Timewalk + draw a card that Electrolyze can be. Again, I could see Jeskai Charm being great in a Control-heavy, threat-heavy meta that features a lot of Wurmcoils, Goyfs, Colonnades, and Planeswalkers. But if Pod/Affinity/Twin are still a lion's share of the meta, and I'm in the market for a 3-drop instant removal flex spell, it's still Electrolyze for me. However, I will test Jeskai Charm for myself in the coming weeks to confirm my suspicions. Again, I'm mostly rating the cards based on inherent card advantage: Jeskai doesn't have it, Electrolyze does.
Boros Charm still has 3 modes for us. Yes we will rarely use the doublestrike, but there will be times when it works as a removal spell against their blocker, or counts as more than 4 damage alongside a Steppe Lynx or Sword. Just imagine a double-striking Geist with a SoWAP on it. Talk about win more. Anyway, Boros Charm is preferable mostly because 2 mana for 4 damage is a much better rate than 3 mana for 4, and indestructible is a huge boon against mass removal or timely Decays.
I haven't had a lot of time for Magic lately, as I've been moving around Boston amongst friends while waiting to move into our new place this month. Next week I will start drafting Khans and testing out Modern again, as well as Legacy. I'm likely to focus on Legacy this season as we have an SCG tournament in October and then GP Jersey in November, and I haven't played RUG(real) Delver competitively in over a year. And it's not hard to admit how much I like my Brainstorms, Dazes, Stifles, and Wastelands alongside Delver.
That said, I will do my best to work on this archetype now that we are back to Established again. I was never the leading player with this deck, just the messenger, but maybe I'll get off my Goyf-high-horse and sleeve up some Jeskai cards at the next Modern tournament I go to. I've had a hankering to play Steppe Lynx for awhile now, so you may see me slinging a classic WUR shell soon, possibly even with a singleton Isochron Scepter for spice. Abrupt Decays be damned!
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Bogles is the other deck I know of that uses Leyline consistently, outside of the card randomly appearing elsewhere like Burn at GP Kobe. Against Bogles though we have a much better chance fighting through the Leyline because our Decay effects and sweepers are still relevant. Against Bogles, I would definitely say it's worth mulliganing to a hand that does something through Leyline, such as finding your EE, or making sure you have at least 2 answers to their enchantments (even if it's 2 Decays). In that matchup, they generally are going all in, and we generally will win if we draw the right SB card, so mulliganing aggressively is worth it anyway. But still, if I opened with Liliana, IoK, Thoughtseize, Land, Land, Land, 2-drop, I'm snap-keeping that hand against them.
RE: Utter End; Basically you need a really good reason to want this over something like Maelstrom Pulse, and then realize that we only play 1-2 Pulses maindeck to begin with, and we almost never SB it. Specific removal/answers like Naturalize effects or Drown in Sorrow are fine in the board since they come in for specific matchups. But I would say unless you have a really heavy Tron presence locally, Utter End is utterly too expensive. Even then, you're going to pay 4 to Exile their Karn or Wurmcoil, yet you'll still be behind since their lategame is so strong. If Tron is pushing you around, I still think Aven Mindcensor, Stony Silence, and Fulminator will help you out much more there anyway.
Cards like Damnation, Thrun, Sorin, Sowing Salt, and Slaughter Games are objectively much more powerful at the 4-mana slot than simply another "Remove target permanent from play" effect, regardless of how flexible it is. You'd need a really good reason to play this card over those other options methinks.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
I can't say I have much experience personally against Leylines, as they are pretty rare in my meta and definitely pretty rare on turn 0, but here is how I would approach the situation.:
1) Don't give up on that Game 1. If you have a discard-heavy hand and they have Leyline, it's very bad news for sure, but we might still have a chance. Resolve a threat and do your best to interact with them (Decay their mana rocks, etc.). Leyline is one less card they have to combo with, so you never know.
2) In Game 2 and 3 (wait are you expecting Leyline Game 1? That's a bit extreme...), you certainly bring in all the Disenchant effects, but you probably only have 2 total, so mulliganing to find one is not an option. Again, if they have the Leyline turn 0 to your discard hand, it's bad beats. But if they don't have it, you probably crush them. It's high-variance, but you're still favored statistically. It's obviously ideal to keep a hand with Pulse or Unravel the Aether in it, but you can't expect to draw those every time they have Leyline: you have to learn to play around it. And again, when they don't have it, you shred their hand. Now, if your 7-card opener is already clunky or doesn't have a threat and is very discard heavy, you might consider shipping it in hopes of more SB material. But if you're hand wins against non-Leyline but loses if they have it, I'm pretty sure you still keep that hand.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Geist, Vendilion Clique, and Blade Splicer are all going to get a bit more value than Mantis Rider. As Ari Lax put it, "Dies to Lightning Bolt, moving on." I realize this applies to a host of other relevant cards in Modern, but none of them cost 3 mana and do nothing other than attack. Mantis Rider is certainly pushed, and it's probably fine to play it in this deck, but it doesn't really fix any of our issues in the way that Giest does. All our threats trade easily with Bolt and other removal, having our 3-drop do the same is not ideal. Clique plays well with our instants and can healthily disrupt an opponent. Splicer provides 2 bodies and synergy with Resto, Mirran Crusader is stellar against BG/x decks where x = anything but red. Cards like Kitchen Finks and Swords provide resilience. Mantis Rider is a Serra Avenger with a Lava Spike Stapled together. Great value, but just a hair below ideal for us. It will be awesome when it lives, and very tempo-inefficient when it doesn't.
Monastery Swiftspear is similarly underpowered in my opinion for this deck. Swiftspear is probably fine in Burn specifically, but they run 24+ spells that all go to the face, and even there I think the timing issue will be a problem sometimes. But here, we have 6 spells at most that might go the face, while the rest are meant to be saved for opportune moments. Being forced to Path their guy when they.... don't have one? Pretty awkward. Being forced to play Remand on your turn? Oh wait. Without a suite of spells that we WANT to cast on out precombat mainphase, Swiftspear is easily much worse than Goblin Guide. Figure of Destiny is a whole other ballpark in terms of what it does, but it's still better here in my opinion, just given the fact that Swiftspear will be a 1/2 so very often.
As for Jeskai Charm, it's most likely better than the others you listed, but that's not really the point. I still think it's also a notch below playable for this deck. It has synergy with Young Pyro, but most WUR Delverers aren't running him, and outside of that there isn't much incentive to invest 3 mana here. If the third mode was Temur's Mana Leak or something, it might be closer, but even still all the options on it are really expensive. Boros Charm is a much better rate (with admittedly less options for us), and even then we have trouble justifying the cost of that card. It's good, but it's not breaking the mold for value here. The variety is nice, but when it comes down to brass tacks, this deck is very mana-tight and has a hard enough time resolving Geist on time as it is. We struggle between wanting to play a threat and hold up countermagic, and none of these cards really fix that problem.
To somewhat contradict myself, I could see Jeskai Charm as a 1-of being a reasonable meta call when stuff like Wurmcoil is a big problem. And Mantis Rider will probably see play despite trading poorly with Bolt (My hunch is she'd be better in a Blue Zoo shell though). And Monastery Swiftspear will probably see play in Burn, and might be reasonable in a Boros or Blue Boros deck sporting Steppe Lynx, Goblin Guide, Delver, Snap, and 24 Burn-ish spells. But none of the above are quite perfect for this deck, nor do they fix our inherent problems with Midrange matchups in the metagame.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Very amusing post sir. I definitely laughed. And while Timely Hordemate isn't terrible, it's unfortunately not quite the second coming of BBE, and I think it's just a bit underpowered.
Bloodbraid always hit something relevant, and often that something was a removal spell or discard. Additionally, Bloodbraid has haste, which is often like a free Lightning Bolt. So for 4 mana you might get something like a 3/2 body, a Lava Spike, and an Abrupt Decay or Tarmogoyf. Pretty insane obviously.
Timely Hordemate only can provide the 3/2 body and occasionally the Goyf or Bob that happened to die already. But if you haven't got a Goyf or Bob in the yard, or if you can't attack for whatever reason, you're just holding a 3/2 vanilla do-nothing for 4 mana. Not a good rate. It's possible this guy is reasonable against heavy-removal decks, but in those cases there are better spells at 4+ mana, such as Thrun, Sorin, Garruk, Batterskull, etc.
Definitely test him out, but at first glance he seems too underpowered. But again, very humorous post!
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
It's still a 3-drop. At the very least, you had to first cast Liliana (a 3-drop also) before you could play Souls at 2 mana. Yes, it's a curve consideration, but with your overdose of 3's, Lingering Souls is already destined to be another clunky card that's difficult for you to cast in a timely fashion.
We always have a plethora of options at the 3-mana slot, but cards like Dismember and Slaughter Pact are much more flexible than something like Lingering Souls. And I'm pretty sure you want a few copies of those removal spells in this deck over some of your other choices. We need answers more than threats in a lot of situations, so maxing out on threats can be a detriment to our gameplan. Abzan Charm is cool, but Path/Dismember/Pact are all more efficient removal spells.
I would agree with the others in that Aven Mindcensor is SB material only for this deck, and that 24-25 lands is much safer than 23. If you want to mess with people via Mindcensor tricks, you're better off just playing G/W Bears. We would sacrifice too much power to fully commit to that strategy, and GW decks will just do it better than us. (Rule #1: Never be a worse version of something else) I'm also unsure about the full set of Tec Edges, usually 3 is a good balance. Drawing 2 at once is a fast ticket to Mulligantown. You also want the full set of Marsh Flats, or at least swap the missing 2 fetches for Windswept Heaths. 4 Tombs isn't necessary once you have the full set of 8 fetches.
I also am not a huge fan of Kitchen Finks, and would rather see something like Courser in this slot if you really want the creature. At most I'd run 2 3-mana green dudes, but Lingering Souls just seems better in that slot if you're splashing white. I'd max out on Souls before any other 3-drops honestly. You can't make the famed +1 Liliana pitch Souls play very often if you're only running a couple Souls. It's perhaps the best 2-card combo we have against fellow midrange fair decks.
Funeral Charm is pretty sweet actually. If you're looking for something that doubles up as Disfigure and Inquisition #4, this is a good place to look. It's a bit low-power, but the flexibility means it will almost always be relevant. If you can't think of any matchups where it's dead, go for it.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Maybe I'm underestimating how we should perform against Treefolk, But from the examples you’ve given I still don’t see how it’s an issue. First, let’s analyze your reasons:
1. They are still vulnerable to IoK/Decay. In the example you gave, Bosk Banneret is a key component to the Treefolk player pulling ahead. I would imagine there are other enablers that cost less than 3 mana in their deck, or else they aren’t doing much until turn 4. Iok/Decay should slow them down while you dig for better answers.
2. Their creatures are likely bigger most of the time, but not always. Goyf should be 4/5 by the time you’re entering combat with them, and Scooze might be enemic in the early game but it’s a house in the late game, after you’ve discarded and killed all their major threats.
Also, that sequence ending with Prey Upon loses really hard to something like Slaughter Pact or Dismember from you, so while it crushed you that one time, it’s exactly the kind of play you normally can capitalize on. Also, IoK takes out their Vines or Prey Upon if you can’t play around them.
After sideboard, there’s a lot of things you can do to shore things up. Damnation, Batterskull, and Thrun are all stellar. Any extra removal that hits their threats comes in. Fulminator Mage might be pretty good if your plan is to cut off all their cheaper enablers to strand the expensive cards in hand, and it helps mitigate Dourbark a bit. Oozes are better than you make them out to be, and you should be running all of them post board. Early game you just trade with their dudes, late game Ooze will clean up house and present a threat big enough to rival theirs.
We run up to 5 removal spells that kill big dumb green guys (Pulse/Pact/Dismember), and an additional 4 Liliana, not to mention the postboard stuff like Damnation, which is absolutely devastating for them. Add to that just the 4 Thoughtseize and you’re talking about 13-15 cards that interact with their fatties. IoK and Abrupt Decay should stall their early plays and allow you to get in early damage via Goyf/Bob/Treetop, while late game you can fly over them with Spirits and hold the fort in whatever way necessary.
If you really want to beat them, it shouldn’t be that hard. You just need to disable whatever threat you can’t deal with via discard/early interaction, and choose wisely on your Pact targets. If this matchup is really causing you grief, run a 2nd Damnation in the board. I don’t see how they can beat that card.
I realize that decks that just spew a ton of threats at us are going to be a little challenging, but they should still be very winnable matchups. With only Treefolk synergy going on, it’s easy to break up their “combos” and reduce their bigger threats down to normal size. And in the end, it’s true that this deck is really not something you should worry about. If it’s popular in your local meta, Sideboard and adjust accordingly, but don’t let it skew your decisions and deckbuilding for a big tournament. Testing against Tier 3 decks will not improve your skills for a serious competition unfortunately.
@xxhellfirexx, Blood Moon is old news for us. It's difficult to beat, but not if you're prepared. It's also one of the reasons to play this deck over Jund (at least prior to the Khanslaught fetches). If you are ever paired against a Mono-Red, U/R, or perhaps Affinity deck, you fetch basics aggressively. And/or leave up Abrupt Decay mana. Coincidentally, we also have 7 discard spells to strip Moon before it lands. SB cards like Unravel the Aether (or if you really want, Seal of Primordium) also help cover the issue, while typically being decent against their other cards in most cases (ascension, plating, twin, batterskull, threads etc.). Blood Moon will certainly get you from time to time, but if you are prepared your chances of flat out losing to it are much much smaller. And Blood Moon just got reasonably worse in the new meta with the new fetches. So fear not, it’s not the deathknell you might think.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB