This card is absolutely bonkers. I don't care what any of you say. This is a much, MUCH better version of Geralf's Messenger, and that saw heavy play. Better P/T, you gain life.. I don't know what else to say. This card is absolutely unreal. Will see heavy standard play without a doubt.
geralfs messenger was a 3 drop, you really really cant compare 3's with 4s, 1 mana difference on identical cards is the difference between good cards and completely unplayable ones, messenger is a way supperior aggresive card, mostly because its cheaper and matches up way better vs removal.
this however is a better defensive card as it gains life and is an excelent blocker, making this card midrangiest of midrange, very solid but certainly not much better then messenger, but potentially better in midrange decks depending on the aggresiveness of the format and the specific midrange deck.
I will totally give you that one my friend. This card is at home in a midrange deck. Abzan midrange 4 lyfe.
This card is absolutely bonkers. I don't care what any of you say. This is a much, MUCH better version of Geralf's Messenger, and that saw heavy play. Better P/T, you gain life.. I don't know what else to say. This card is absolutely unreal. Will see heavy standard play without a doubt.
They aren't even close in power level. Messenger is a tribal Zombie that has natural synergies with basic principles of the game, creating combat advantage with it's efficient body, and aggressive abilities. It thrives off removal, and remains relevant stalling the board, while still dealing damage. When something bigger comes out, it doesn't become useless, instead giving you time to stabilize or answer it, even maintaining aggression against your opponent's attacks.
Siege Rhino is a 4 mana card that is difficult to cast, and doesn't match the efficiency of other wedge cards. In it's own clan, there are better options. Anafenza, the Foremost can come down earlier, easily outracing Rhino, while creating more aggression just by attacking, on top of having an ability that counters death triggers for your opponent. If it's stats can't surmount your opponent's defense, it still does work.
I presume you haven't seen the plethora of professional articles claiming how insane this card is? Please, kindly see yourself the door.
Hey you know "professionals" are paid to write articles about how good things are? If they don't drum up some interest in the cards in khans, people will start noticing how much of a crapfest it is
Yes, because that's totally what they do 100% of the time. When they did it for Snapcaster Mage, that's exactly what they were doing. When they did it for Giest of Saint Traft, they were just paid to write about how good the card was to "drum up interest" in Innistrad. I'm not saying they don't do this sometimes, but largely, that is not the case. Especially with this card. It is a powerhouse. Simple as that. It is the definition of value.
This card is absolutely bonkers. I don't care what any of you say. This is a much, MUCH better version of Geralf's Messenger, and that saw heavy play. Better P/T, you gain life.. I don't know what else to say. This card is absolutely unreal. Will see heavy standard play without a doubt.
They aren't even close in power level. Messenger is a tribal Zombie that has natural synergies with basic principles of the game, creating combat advantage with it's efficient body, and aggressive abilities. It thrives off removal, and remains relevant stalling the board, while still dealing damage. When something bigger comes out, it doesn't become useless, instead giving you time to stabilize or answer it, even maintaining aggression against your opponent's attacks.
Siege Rhino is a 4 mana card that is difficult to cast, and doesn't match the efficiency of other wedge cards. In it's own clan, there are better options. Anafenza, the Foremost can come down earlier, easily outracing Rhino, while creating more aggression just by attacking, on top of having an ability that counters death triggers for your opponent. If it's stats can't surmount your opponent's defense, it still does work.
I presume you haven't seen the plethora of professional articles claiming how insane this card is? Please, kindly see yourself the door.
Are we really sold on playing Sarkhan and Rattleclaw Mystic? Do we need the fixing from Mystic when we already have Caryatid and Elvish Mystic? Also, I feel as though Xenagos would be a better pick than Sarkhan in general.
This card is absolutely bonkers. I don't care what any of you say. This is a much, MUCH better version of Geralf's Messenger, and that saw heavy play. Better P/T, you gain life.. I don't know what else to say. This card is absolutely unreal. Will see heavy standard play without a doubt.
I can't wait until I see all of these people get crapped on by pro players when they use cards like Utter End, Mindswipe, and Suspention Field to full effect. They're all good cards. In a meta where the cards you people are comparing them to are NOT available, these are the next best things. They will be played because they are good enough to be played over the other small selection of cards that we have to work with alone. The only "iffy" card may be Mindswipe, because we do have cards such as Dissipate and Dissolve in the format, but I can see Mindswipe being played as a 1 or 2-of, even as an alternate win-con.
So, we're getting one more power and toughness, and deathtouch added to Legion Loyalist, AND trample and the unblockable by tokens clause removed for FOUR extra mana? Hard pass. I realize that Legion Loyalist had to have a Batallion trigger, but there were very few times in a deck that ran him that his ability did NOT trigger. If this guy was a 3/4, or costed 1WBR, I think he would have been just fine.
Talking about PT Journey into Nyx. PR M15 doesnt matter because we're losing RTR Block. Patrick Chapin played 4 Silence the Believers, while Nam Sung Wook played 2.
Wasn't PT Journey into Nyx block?
Block makes a HUGE difference. It isn't odd to see cards in block that would never see play otherwise.
It does yes...but PT M15 had RTR, which makes some cards better than others, especially the ones from the RTR Block. When Khans of Tarkir drops, we wont have RTR Block, so its best to look at PT Journey into Nyx for how the block interacts. Silence the Believers and Banishing Light were the removal of choice for most Midrange Decks, followed by Bile Blight and Hero's Downfall.
My point was, Silence the Believers was a big card for Midrange decks, so the 4-mana cost of Utter End will not be a hindrance for the ability to exile basically anything that doesnt have Shroud/Hexproof or is a land. Im seeing so many people lividly upset that it isnt Vindicate that its becoming a joke.
Silence the believers was only a big card for mid-range decks in BLOCK. I would argue this is due to limited access to cheaper alternatives. In block there was only two card's cheaper (that I am aware of): bile blight and hero's downfall. Block didn't include card's like UP or devour flesh. Had those card's been in block, one could easily argue that silence would not see play.
You don't understand what he is trying to say. The "alternatives" that you speak of were from M14 and Return to Ravnica, which will not be in standard when this card is standard playable. With that said, did M15 even release any good removal for black? Ulcerate? With Theros block cards being the only other removal options once Khans of Tarkir releases, the cards that were played during Theros block tournaments will likely be the ones that are worth playing. Utter End beats out Silence the Believers. Hands down. And Silence the Believers was played in Theros block.
You're kidding, right? http://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=ST. It's all right there. Percentages. Real percentages. Mono-green aggro makes up ONE PERCENT of the meta. ONE PERCENT. Because that equals "making a splash." Once that number goes up to 5 percent or more, THEN I will consider it a relevant threat.
actually 2%, if you include both the aggro and devotion variants. Also... 30% of the meta is some variant of aggro (where demon would excel vs).
I'm still not sure of the point trying to be made...
That's where the website is wrong. It counts Jund Midrange as "Jund Aggro." It's GR monsters splashing black. Which is even worse for anyone playing the demon because Dreadbore and Abrupt Decay.
It counts Boros Burn as "Boros Aggro." Boros Burn doesn't care about demon. At all. It helps them.
It counts Naya Auras as "Naya Aggro" and that deck plays Ethereal Armor, Madcap Skills, Boros Charm, Selesnya Charm, Chained to the Rocks, and Ajani.
It counts Golgari Dredge as "BG Aggro." Every creature in that deck attacks over the demon or has the same P/T as it.
The rest of the "true" aggro decks (Mono-black, Orzhov, Mono-green) make up less than 10% of the meta. Good call.
You're kidding, right? http://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=ST. It's all right there. Percentages. Real percentages. Mono-green aggro makes up ONE PERCENT of the meta. ONE PERCENT. Because that equals "making a splash." Once that number goes up to 5 percent or more, THEN I will consider it a relevant threat.
The demon really depends on what removal people are using. If Mono-Black is still awesome and it's running Hero's Downfalls or other instant speed removal this seems really bad. "Draw a card, kill your guy, thanks." Over-all it can be tough to beat but you need to make sure you're applying enough pressure to help negate the card draw you're providing.
What you are describing equates to Mono-black Aggro, and that deck sees only fringe play at best. They already have Herald of Torment, and Desecration Demon, which are far better with far better drawbacks. I will pay 1 life a turn and the possibility of my demon becoming tapped instead of getting my opponent to draw an extra card for an extra 2 damage a turn early. Thanks.
A few things wrong with your analysis: Esper doesn't need any more draw spells. It has access to sphinx, jace, divination, etc. Duskmantel does not fit in esper... period. So my statement that it doesn't see play because there are no decks that support it... still stand. I believe I said in my above post that sphinx and sphere is the main reason why dusk mantel will never see play...
When I said there are no deck that supports seer... I wasn't referring to its colors. I was referring to its ability. There exists zero decks in standard that benefit from it.
Also... your opponent does not get the bob effect before you do. you get it at the same time. Stop making things up ._.
The demon can do two more damage a turn... which could be huge in MBA.
EDIT: Mono-Black aggro sees more than just fringe play. And with the BW god... BW aggro will be a thing. And that 100% negates any removal you might draw for the 5/5.
It's certainly not that huge. The drawback does not pay for the benefit. At all. And if BW aggro becomes a thing (which I suspect that it will), this will still see no play. Orzhov Aggro has bseen a little play, and it will not be played there. There are much better three drops (Brimaz, Herald of Torment, Lifebane Zombie, etc).
Also, please link me the last tournament that mono-black aggro topped. The last one according to TCGPlayer is an MTGO tournament hosted on 3/24/14. Three weeks ago. 3/29 top 8 for a MaxPoint Bronze tournament. 3/29 top 16 TCGPlayer Open Hartford. Between the last TWENTY events stretching all the way back to March 17th, Mono-black Aggro has topped a total of 3 times. Three. Out of twenty events. And this includes multiples. Compare that to Esper Control, Mono-black Devotion, Mono-blue Devotion, Naya Auras, Orzhov Control, etc.
For better support: http://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=ST. Look at the metagame analysis. Where is mono-black aggro? Do you really think an extra two damage on turn four that gives your opponent (mind you, mono-black and Esper Control collectively make up 32% of the metagame, so that extra card draw will be useful to them) an extra draw will make a difference?
Now, you could bring up the argument for Orzhov Aggro, as that deck has about the same play as Mono-black aggro. But then you have MUCH better three drops than this card, including Brimaz, Herald of Torment, Lifebane Zombie, etc.
You see, all of those aforementioned three-drop cards do something. Herald is a 3/3 flyer for 3 with a "pay one life during your upkeep" drawback. That is not big. For a 3/3 flying body or a +3/+3 and flying onto another creature, that is certainly fine. You'll get there still. Lifebane Zombie hits a white or green creature card in an opponents hand, along with letting you see the opponents hand. This is relevant against around 4-6 played decks in the format, possibly more. On top of that, he has intimidate, and is a 3/1. Brimaz needs no explanation. He makes creatures, and has a powerful body for his cost.
Four drop creatures consist of Desecration Demon (bigger body than the fat demon, with less of a drawback), and five drop creatures consist of Blood Baron, if the deck even has that high of a curve. The deck also runs Precinct Captain (which comes down earlier), Pain Seer (which gives YOU cards, noting the importance of card advantage), and Soldier of the Pantheon. Then a plethora of support spells. Which of these should be removed for a 5/5 flier that gives you opponent cards? The answer is none.
EDIT: Regarding your noted importance of the BW god, saying that "negates 100% of any removal you might draw for the 5/5"..... they will pay the three life. They'll draw from your demon, use a kill spell, and pay three life. It just did what a Herald of Torment could have done. Deal three damage. And you also gave them a card. Makes sense.
I would disagree... especially given the current meta. MBA has won/top8ed a few PTQs. As well as sneaking into a few open top 8s.
Additionally there is one card that the new demon could replace: Torment Herald. And I wouldn't be surprised if it did.
You neglect the fact that Herald of Torment does not give your opponent card advantage (which is why this deck plays Pain Seer, a scrawny 2/1 that HAS TO TAP to give you the same thing), and that it is bestowable upon your Pain Seer or other creatures. It has multiple uses, is aggressively costed, and does not give your opponent card advantage. Card advantage is SO important. Why do you think Bob is played? Pain Seer? Sphinx's Revelation? Underworld Connections? It's because it gives you an extra card per turn, just like this guy does to your opponent. Not to mention his body is irrelevant against most decks.
I understand fully. However I think you are under-estimating the power of the new demon. Sure your opponent draws an extra card during your turn. But you have a 5/5 evasive beat stick which will have them dead (at the very minimum) by turn 8. A 4 turn clock is nothing to shrug off.
EDIT: A turn three 5/5 flyer is irrelevant vs most decks? You... are serious? Let me list the known archetypes...
GRx: A 5/5 Flyer turn 3 is huge, back-breaking vs this type of deck. If a deck runs both the new demon and desecration demon... it would be very hard for this deck to win at all. They have zero ways to remove big creatures like that unless they get cute (mizzium + fight or double mizzium). I'm pretty sure the extra card you give them wouldn't even be enough to make a difference
RDW/BW-aggro/Mono-Green Aggro/MBA: Getting a 5/5 flyer blocker out by turn 3 would completely shut down these type of decks. Sure they draw extra... but they wouldn't be running anything to actually answer it.
Burn/control: New Demon bad vs these deck types. These decks care very much about draws...
Midrange: Depends. This will be more of a coin flip.
Yes, a 5/5 evasive beatstick is irrelevant against most of these decks. I play Mono-black Deovtion. Have been since right before it blew up. Want me to tell you how many times Desecration Demon did work for me? I'll give you a hint, I can count that number on both hands. Why do I play it? Because devotion, and because there is nothing better in that slot. It can't be burned, it blocks sometimes, and it gets there sometimes. That's about it. RDW isn't played too much anymore. Any RDW-type deck has since shifted to Boros Burn or boros colors, which means they play Chained to the Rocks and Revoke Existence. Guess what? This dude is an enchantment. Mono-green does not see play. Irrelevant. MBA see fringe play. Irrelevant. BW aggro sees fringe play, again irrelevant. Plus they play Brave the Elements for the alpha-strike.
It seems to me that all of the decks that you think this card is good against see little-to-no play in the competitive scene. Again, reference the meta analysis that I linked. 32% of the playing field alone is Esper Control and Mono-black, which care not about this card. In fact, they cherish it. They WANT you to play it.
Against G/R/X, Gruul Monsters plays Polukranos. On turn three. With no downside. Along with other huge threats like Domri Rade, Xenagos, Stormbreath Dragon. They have fight spells. Polukranos will kill that demon. They side Ruric-Thar. They have answers. They also play their big creatures on turn three.. lol. Against Naya enchantments, they are playing hexproof creatures. Which get really big, REALLY fast. They will have a bigger body than that demon in no time.
The demon really depends on what removal people are using. If Mono-Black is still awesome and it's running Hero's Downfalls or other instant speed removal this seems really bad. "Draw a card, kill your guy, thanks." Over-all it can be tough to beat but you need to make sure you're applying enough pressure to help negate the card draw you're providing.
What you are describing equates to Mono-black Aggro, and that deck sees only fringe play at best. They already have Herald of Torment, and Desecration Demon, which are far better with far better drawbacks. I will pay 1 life a turn and the possibility of my demon becoming tapped instead of getting my opponent to draw an extra card for an extra 2 damage a turn early. Thanks.
A few things wrong with your analysis: Esper doesn't need any more draw spells. It has access to sphinx, jace, divination, etc. Duskmantel does not fit in esper... period. So my statement that it doesn't see play because there are no decks that support it... still stand. I believe I said in my above post that sphinx and sphere is the main reason why dusk mantel will never see play...
When I said there are no deck that supports seer... I wasn't referring to its colors. I was referring to its ability. There exists zero decks in standard that benefit from it.
Also... your opponent does not get the bob effect before you do. you get it at the same time. Stop making things up ._.
The demon can do two more damage a turn... which could be huge in MBA.
EDIT: Mono-Black aggro sees more than just fringe play. And with the BW god... BW aggro will be a thing. And that 100% negates any removal you might draw for the 5/5.
It's certainly not that huge. The drawback does not pay for the benefit. At all. And if BW aggro becomes a thing (which I suspect that it will), this will still see no play. Orzhov Aggro has bseen a little play, and it will not be played there. There are much better three drops (Brimaz, Herald of Torment, Lifebane Zombie, etc).
Also, please link me the last tournament that mono-black aggro topped. The last one according to TCGPlayer is an MTGO tournament hosted on 3/24/14. Three weeks ago. 3/29 top 8 for a MaxPoint Bronze tournament. 3/29 top 16 TCGPlayer Open Hartford. Between the last TWENTY events stretching all the way back to March 17th, Mono-black Aggro has topped a total of 3 times. Three. Out of twenty events. And this includes multiples. Compare that to Esper Control, Mono-black Devotion, Mono-blue Devotion, Naya Auras, Orzhov Control, etc.
For better support: http://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=ST. Look at the metagame analysis. Where is mono-black aggro? Do you really think an extra two damage on turn four that gives your opponent (mind you, mono-black and Esper Control collectively make up 32% of the metagame, so that extra card draw will be useful to them) an extra draw will make a difference?
Now, you could bring up the argument for Orzhov Aggro, as that deck has about the same play as Mono-black aggro. But then you have MUCH better three drops than this card, including Brimaz, Herald of Torment, Lifebane Zombie, etc.
You see, all of those aforementioned three-drop cards do something. Herald is a 3/3 flyer for 3 with a "pay one life during your upkeep" drawback. That is not big. For a 3/3 flying body or a +3/+3 and flying onto another creature, that is certainly fine. You'll get there still. Lifebane Zombie hits a white or green creature card in an opponents hand, along with letting you see the opponents hand. This is relevant against around 4-6 played decks in the format, possibly more. On top of that, he has intimidate, and is a 3/1. Brimaz needs no explanation. He makes creatures, and has a powerful body for his cost.
Four drop creatures consist of Desecration Demon (bigger body than the fat demon, with less of a drawback), and five drop creatures consist of Blood Baron, if the deck even has that high of a curve. The deck also runs Precinct Captain (which comes down earlier), Pain Seer (which gives YOU cards, noting the importance of card advantage), and Soldier of the Pantheon. Then a plethora of support spells. Which of these should be removed for a 5/5 flier that gives you opponent cards? The answer is none.
EDIT: Regarding your noted importance of the BW god, saying that "negates 100% of any removal you might draw for the 5/5"..... they will pay the three life. They'll draw from your demon, use a kill spell, and pay three life. It just did what a Herald of Torment could have done. Deal three damage. And you also gave them a card. Makes sense.
I would disagree... especially given the current meta. MBA has won/top8ed a few PTQs. As well as sneaking into a few open top 8s.
Additionally there is one card that the new demon could replace: Torment Herald. And I wouldn't be surprised if it did.
You neglect the fact that Herald of Torment does not give your opponent card advantage (which is why this deck plays Pain Seer, a scrawny 2/1 that HAS TO TAP to give you the same thing), and that it is bestowable upon your Pain Seer or other creatures. It has multiple uses, is aggressively costed, and does not give your opponent card advantage. Card advantage is SO important. Why do you think Bob is played? Pain Seer? Sphinx's Revelation? Underworld Connections? It's because it gives you an extra card per turn, just like this guy does to your opponent. Not to mention his body is irrelevant against most decks.
The demon really depends on what removal people are using. If Mono-Black is still awesome and it's running Hero's Downfalls or other instant speed removal this seems really bad. "Draw a card, kill your guy, thanks." Over-all it can be tough to beat but you need to make sure you're applying enough pressure to help negate the card draw you're providing.
What you are describing equates to Mono-black Aggro, and that deck sees only fringe play at best. They already have Herald of Torment, and Desecration Demon, which are far better with far better drawbacks. I will pay 1 life a turn and the possibility of my demon becoming tapped instead of getting my opponent to draw an extra card for an extra 2 damage a turn early. Thanks.
A few things wrong with your analysis: Esper doesn't need any more draw spells. It has access to sphinx, jace, divination, etc. Duskmantel does not fit in esper... period. So my statement that it doesn't see play because there are no decks that support it... still stand. I believe I said in my above post that sphinx and sphere is the main reason why dusk mantel will never see play...
When I said there are no deck that supports seer... I wasn't referring to its colors. I was referring to its ability. There exists zero decks in standard that benefit from it.
Also... your opponent does not get the bob effect before you do. you get it at the same time. Stop making things up ._.
The demon can do two more damage a turn... which could be huge in MBA.
EDIT: Mono-Black aggro sees more than just fringe play. And with the BW god... BW aggro will be a thing. And that 100% negates any removal you might draw for the 5/5.
It's certainly not that huge. The drawback does not pay for the benefit. At all. And if BW aggro becomes a thing (which I suspect that it will), this will still see no play. Orzhov Aggro has bseen a little play, and it will not be played there. There are much better three drops (Brimaz, Herald of Torment, Lifebane Zombie, etc).
Also, please link me the last tournament that mono-black aggro topped. The last one according to TCGPlayer is an MTGO tournament hosted on 3/24/14. Three weeks ago. 3/29 top 8 for a MaxPoint Bronze tournament. 3/29 top 16 TCGPlayer Open Hartford. Between the last TWENTY events stretching all the way back to March 17th, Mono-black Aggro has topped a total of 3 times. Three. Out of twenty events. And this includes multiples. Compare that to Esper Control, Mono-black Devotion, Mono-blue Devotion, Naya Auras, Orzhov Control, etc.
For better support: http://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=ST. Look at the metagame analysis. Where is mono-black aggro? Do you really think an extra two damage on turn four that gives your opponent (mind you, mono-black and Esper Control collectively make up 32% of the metagame, so that extra card draw will be useful to them) an extra draw will make a difference?
Now, you could bring up the argument for Orzhov Aggro, as that deck has about the same play as Mono-black aggro. But then you have MUCH better three drops than this card, including Brimaz, Herald of Torment, Lifebane Zombie, etc.
You see, all of those aforementioned three-drop cards do something. Herald is a 3/3 flyer for 3 with a "pay one life during your upkeep" drawback. That is not big. For a 3/3 flying body or a +3/+3 and flying onto another creature, that is certainly fine. You'll get there still. Lifebane Zombie hits a white or green creature card in an opponents hand, along with letting you see the opponents hand. This is relevant against around 4-6 played decks in the format, possibly more. On top of that, he has intimidate, and is a 3/1. Brimaz needs no explanation. He makes creatures, and has a powerful body for his cost.
Four drop creatures consist of Desecration Demon (bigger body than the fat demon, with less of a drawback), and five drop creatures consist of Blood Baron, if the deck even has that high of a curve. The deck also runs Precinct Captain (which comes down earlier), Pain Seer (which gives YOU cards, noting the importance of card advantage), and Soldier of the Pantheon. Then a plethora of support spells. Which of these should be removed for a 5/5 flier that gives you opponent cards? The answer is none.
EDIT: Regarding your noted importance of the BW god, saying that "negates 100% of any removal you might draw for the 5/5"..... they will pay the three life. They'll draw from your demon, use a kill spell, and pay three life. It just did what a Herald of Torment could have done. Deal three damage. And you also gave them a card. Makes sense.
The demon really depends on what removal people are using. If Mono-Black is still awesome and it's running Hero's Downfalls or other instant speed removal this seems really bad. "Draw a card, kill your guy, thanks." Over-all it can be tough to beat but you need to make sure you're applying enough pressure to help negate the card draw you're providing.
What you are describing equates to Mono-black Aggro, and that deck sees only fringe play at best. They already have Herald of Torment, and Desecration Demon, which are far better with far better drawbacks. I will pay 1 life a turn and the possibility of my demon becoming tapped instead of getting my opponent to draw an extra card for an extra 2 damage a turn early. Thanks.
Now this isn't to say the pros aren't going to find a way to break him, this is possible. But as of right now, he's terrible. Look at other cards with huge downsides like him. The 4/3 demon for BB with unearth and your opponent gets him when you kill it. Saw TONS of play, right? Duskmantle Seer was CRAZY right? I remember all the hype for the aforementioned card, too. Was 20 dollars in the first week. Saw ZERO play. Just like this demon.
On a more positive note, that red creature is nuts. Trample and Double Strike alone on a single creature are enough for it to see play. When you think about him giving you double of Chandra, Pyromaster's -1 ability? That's nuts.
On the flip side... there was zero hype for desecration demon. People thought it was terrible. And continued to think it was terrible till Mono-Black became a thing.
Duskmantle Seer could still see play.. but it has zero support. What decks would run it? BU control is not a thing (nor will ever be while sphinx/detention sphere is in the format). MBD can not splash for it (too high of a curve. Taking 4-5 damage for revealing a demon or merchant is suicidal). MBA has no need for it (plus their curve is also somewhat high).
Your comparisons are kind of a stretch. The cards you listed... see no play because they have no support. The new demon could easily fit into a black shell.
The new demon seems really good vs aggro. Mono-green aggro, mono-black aggro, WR devotion, etc. would have no answers to this guy. And the extra draw wouldn't help them much (in theory). This card does have the potential to be very bad though vs burn, midrange, and control. So there is that.
Okay, sure. He may be decent against aggro, but the fact of the matter is, the best aggro decks are white-based. White has access to some of the best removal in standard (baring black, and including Chained to the Rocks, Banisher Priest, Selesnya Charm, etc.) and some of the best creatures in standard (Brimaz, Blood Baron, Banisher Priest, Voice of Resurgence, etc.)
These decks will not care about this demon. They will either race over him, or kill him outright without giving you any benefit. Mono-green aggro is not a deck. Mono-black aggro see fringe play and they play Desecration Demon and Herald of Torment anyway. Aggro decks are falling out of popularity to control and midrange decks. Look at the top 36 for Grand Prix Phoenix. The only aggro deck in the top 36 was Mono-blue aggro, and they run Domestication and Rapid Hybridization. Plus, they pump out so many creatures they don't care about him. They also run Cyclonic Rift.
With that said, and with midrange and control being the most prevalent deck archetypes in standard, this card will see no play.
Also, Duskmantle Seer sees no play because of it being bad. Your opponent gets to get the bob effect before you do, and at that point, they will kill the creature. It's the same concept. The opponent gets the benefit before you do. Just as they get the card draw from this guy before you get to attack. He is bad. End of story.
Also, Esper control is HUGE. Esper is Blue, Black, and White. Two of those three colors are the colors Duskmantle Seer is in.... he still sees no play.
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I will totally give you that one my friend. This card is at home in a midrange deck. Abzan midrange 4 lyfe.
Yes, because that's totally what they do 100% of the time. When they did it for Snapcaster Mage, that's exactly what they were doing. When they did it for Giest of Saint Traft, they were just paid to write about how good the card was to "drum up interest" in Innistrad. I'm not saying they don't do this sometimes, but largely, that is not the case. Especially with this card. It is a powerhouse. Simple as that. It is the definition of value.
I presume you haven't seen the plethora of professional articles claiming how insane this card is? Please, kindly see yourself the door.
You don't understand what he is trying to say. The "alternatives" that you speak of were from M14 and Return to Ravnica, which will not be in standard when this card is standard playable. With that said, did M15 even release any good removal for black? Ulcerate? With Theros block cards being the only other removal options once Khans of Tarkir releases, the cards that were played during Theros block tournaments will likely be the ones that are worth playing. Utter End beats out Silence the Believers. Hands down. And Silence the Believers was played in Theros block.
That's where the website is wrong. It counts Jund Midrange as "Jund Aggro." It's GR monsters splashing black. Which is even worse for anyone playing the demon because Dreadbore and Abrupt Decay.
It counts Boros Burn as "Boros Aggro." Boros Burn doesn't care about demon. At all. It helps them.
It counts Naya Auras as "Naya Aggro" and that deck plays Ethereal Armor, Madcap Skills, Boros Charm, Selesnya Charm, Chained to the Rocks, and Ajani.
It counts Golgari Dredge as "BG Aggro." Every creature in that deck attacks over the demon or has the same P/T as it.
The rest of the "true" aggro decks (Mono-black, Orzhov, Mono-green) make up less than 10% of the meta. Good call.
Yes, a 5/5 evasive beatstick is irrelevant against most of these decks. I play Mono-black Deovtion. Have been since right before it blew up. Want me to tell you how many times Desecration Demon did work for me? I'll give you a hint, I can count that number on both hands. Why do I play it? Because devotion, and because there is nothing better in that slot. It can't be burned, it blocks sometimes, and it gets there sometimes. That's about it. RDW isn't played too much anymore. Any RDW-type deck has since shifted to Boros Burn or boros colors, which means they play Chained to the Rocks and Revoke Existence. Guess what? This dude is an enchantment. Mono-green does not see play. Irrelevant. MBA see fringe play. Irrelevant. BW aggro sees fringe play, again irrelevant. Plus they play Brave the Elements for the alpha-strike.
It seems to me that all of the decks that you think this card is good against see little-to-no play in the competitive scene. Again, reference the meta analysis that I linked. 32% of the playing field alone is Esper Control and Mono-black, which care not about this card. In fact, they cherish it. They WANT you to play it.
Against G/R/X, Gruul Monsters plays Polukranos. On turn three. With no downside. Along with other huge threats like Domri Rade, Xenagos, Stormbreath Dragon. They have fight spells. Polukranos will kill that demon. They side Ruric-Thar. They have answers. They also play their big creatures on turn three.. lol. Against Naya enchantments, they are playing hexproof creatures. Which get really big, REALLY fast. They will have a bigger body than that demon in no time.
You neglect the fact that Herald of Torment does not give your opponent card advantage (which is why this deck plays Pain Seer, a scrawny 2/1 that HAS TO TAP to give you the same thing), and that it is bestowable upon your Pain Seer or other creatures. It has multiple uses, is aggressively costed, and does not give your opponent card advantage. Card advantage is SO important. Why do you think Bob is played? Pain Seer? Sphinx's Revelation? Underworld Connections? It's because it gives you an extra card per turn, just like this guy does to your opponent. Not to mention his body is irrelevant against most decks.
It's certainly not that huge. The drawback does not pay for the benefit. At all. And if BW aggro becomes a thing (which I suspect that it will), this will still see no play. Orzhov Aggro has bseen a little play, and it will not be played there. There are much better three drops (Brimaz, Herald of Torment, Lifebane Zombie, etc).
Also, please link me the last tournament that mono-black aggro topped. The last one according to TCGPlayer is an MTGO tournament hosted on 3/24/14. Three weeks ago. 3/29 top 8 for a MaxPoint Bronze tournament. 3/29 top 16 TCGPlayer Open Hartford. Between the last TWENTY events stretching all the way back to March 17th, Mono-black Aggro has topped a total of 3 times. Three. Out of twenty events. And this includes multiples. Compare that to Esper Control, Mono-black Devotion, Mono-blue Devotion, Naya Auras, Orzhov Control, etc.
For better support: http://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=ST. Look at the metagame analysis. Where is mono-black aggro? Do you really think an extra two damage on turn four that gives your opponent (mind you, mono-black and Esper Control collectively make up 32% of the metagame, so that extra card draw will be useful to them) an extra draw will make a difference?
Now, you could bring up the argument for Orzhov Aggro, as that deck has about the same play as Mono-black aggro. But then you have MUCH better three drops than this card, including Brimaz, Herald of Torment, Lifebane Zombie, etc.
You see, all of those aforementioned three-drop cards do something. Herald is a 3/3 flyer for 3 with a "pay one life during your upkeep" drawback. That is not big. For a 3/3 flying body or a +3/+3 and flying onto another creature, that is certainly fine. You'll get there still. Lifebane Zombie hits a white or green creature card in an opponents hand, along with letting you see the opponents hand. This is relevant against around 4-6 played decks in the format, possibly more. On top of that, he has intimidate, and is a 3/1. Brimaz needs no explanation. He makes creatures, and has a powerful body for his cost.
Four drop creatures consist of Desecration Demon (bigger body than the fat demon, with less of a drawback), and five drop creatures consist of Blood Baron, if the deck even has that high of a curve. The deck also runs Precinct Captain (which comes down earlier), Pain Seer (which gives YOU cards, noting the importance of card advantage), and Soldier of the Pantheon. Then a plethora of support spells. Which of these should be removed for a 5/5 flier that gives you opponent cards? The answer is none.
EDIT: Regarding your noted importance of the BW god, saying that "negates 100% of any removal you might draw for the 5/5"..... they will pay the three life. They'll draw from your demon, use a kill spell, and pay three life. It just did what a Herald of Torment could have done. Deal three damage. And you also gave them a card. Makes sense.
What you are describing equates to Mono-black Aggro, and that deck sees only fringe play at best. They already have Herald of Torment, and Desecration Demon, which are far better with far better drawbacks. I will pay 1 life a turn and the possibility of my demon becoming tapped instead of getting my opponent to draw an extra card for an extra 2 damage a turn early. Thanks.
Okay, sure. He may be decent against aggro, but the fact of the matter is, the best aggro decks are white-based. White has access to some of the best removal in standard (baring black, and including Chained to the Rocks, Banisher Priest, Selesnya Charm, etc.) and some of the best creatures in standard (Brimaz, Blood Baron, Banisher Priest, Voice of Resurgence, etc.)
These decks will not care about this demon. They will either race over him, or kill him outright without giving you any benefit. Mono-green aggro is not a deck. Mono-black aggro see fringe play and they play Desecration Demon and Herald of Torment anyway. Aggro decks are falling out of popularity to control and midrange decks. Look at the top 36 for Grand Prix Phoenix. The only aggro deck in the top 36 was Mono-blue aggro, and they run Domestication and Rapid Hybridization. Plus, they pump out so many creatures they don't care about him. They also run Cyclonic Rift.
With that said, and with midrange and control being the most prevalent deck archetypes in standard, this card will see no play.
Also, Duskmantle Seer sees no play because of it being bad. Your opponent gets to get the bob effect before you do, and at that point, they will kill the creature. It's the same concept. The opponent gets the benefit before you do. Just as they get the card draw from this guy before you get to attack. He is bad. End of story.
Also, Esper control is HUGE. Esper is Blue, Black, and White. Two of those three colors are the colors Duskmantle Seer is in.... he still sees no play.