That... Actually looks incredibly interesting. I'll try pulling the Crusaders and Bloodghasts to bump in three Garruk and a Vraska. Possibility to cut another Inquisition for a Lilliana or a second Vraska at this rate, since they provides a lot of protection as well...
I want to fit in the Elders as well, but I'm a bit iffy on whether or not I want to cut the Scullers; those little guys provide a lot of value.
260 views and 0 outside comments..? Can't tell if I'm genuinely onto something, or people think I'm insane.
Either way, I'm feeling pretty good about the deck. Lots of hand disruption, trinisphere to plug up combos, and the creatures aren't half-bad either. Still haven't decided if the Bloodghasts are worth it or not, since they serve a purpose... But that purpose is almost as easily reached on the back of Lingering Souls. I just need to keep at least one land in hand after a resolved Death Cloud, and things are pretty set on my side. Going so light on spot removal also seems to be a very small issue, considering that the dorks make it easy to ramp into Lili or a Cloud.
Feels like I'm going to be very weak against Tron no matter what I try, though. SB helps with that and allows me to pull out my weak links (3Sphere and Bloodghast) for appropriate hate... Might wind up with Smallpox in the SB to help deny more lands.
Had a fun experience last night, playing with a local group who gets together... I have two EDH decks that I normally play with; Nin, the Combo Artist, and Doran (50 hate cards and a beatstick), the Siege Tower. Doran's a fun deck to play with for me, because it creates interesting situations for the opponents to try and play through. Redundancy is a thing in that deck, since it lacks a lot of CA that I consider a "must" for a competitive setting. Nin runs just as many redundant pieces, but specifically tries to win with comboing through control.
Games 1 and 2, I was playing Doran. Successfully locked down my opponents to a grind both games, but won #1 because game 2 they were focusing on me (not that I blame them). I actually like making myself a target, because it lets the non-interactive players push ahead... Games 3 and 4, I used Nin. Game 3, I combo'd into a win on turn 6 due to an opponent's misplay. Game 4, I was the target again. I could've won on turn 6 again through a lucky streak of draws... But it was obvious to me that it would be more fun for the other players to just duke it out after I was gone. The fact that I *could* have won makes me feel fine about scooping up and calling it good, and the fact that the other players enjoyed themselves made it even better.
That said, I fully support groups that try and spread out their strategies-- I like making things interesting, and seeing how I can do through some more difficult situations is a blast for me. If I have to scoop through MLD, I overextended; if I lose to a combo, I need to learn when my counters are being baited; if I get beaten to death by a swarm, I need to pick and choose when to present a threat. It all comes down to what you and your group are comfortable with, but I think the fun comes from the challenge.
This actually looks like a very entertaining deck to play with. I'd love to jump into my local Modern group with it to test it out, but I'm lacking the lands on top of a few cheap cards...
The only question I have would be... No Supreme Verdict at all? Seems like it would be a perfect out for you after Dovescape is down, on the chance that your opponent gets a swarm out before you do. The only cut I would try for it would be -1 Qasali Ambusher to place one in since you already run Demand as a tutor, and I very much doubt you'd want to see it every game.
Aside from that, I've gotta reiterate that it does seem like a very fun deck to play with, and maybe even against.
Still very light on spot removal, but trying to shoot for a t2 Trinisphere slows down a lot of decks that I play against. Not sure if I want to put Smallpox in quite yet, but I've got time to test it and (possibly) get some critique and suggestions.
I'm not kidding on that at all. A lot of people in my area have been getting into Modern recently, and having sold almost all of my pre-modern legacy staples, I've been dipping into the format as well... What I've noticed mostly is that my groups play a lot of tempo, combo, and Affinity style decks, and I've made it my solemn choice to try and take full advantage of that.
The deck I've been playing is incredibly awkward, but holds somewhere over a 50-50 win/loss against the people I'm playing with. Ideally, I'd like to bump that up to at least a 60-40 against my field, but I'm not completely hopeful that it'll get to be that good without a complete overhaul.
I know the manabase is absolutely terrible to begin with, since I'm lacking any fetches or shocks at the moment... That'll be slowly remedied. The muddled out sideboard is an old habit from Legacy; it's harder to be prepared against an array of hate cards than against full sets of any one in particular.
Primary thoughts in my mind would be: Bloodghast and Smallpox would make good inclusions. Extremely light on spot removal right now, may need to remedy that as well. Deathrite Shaman may be worth replacing the Hierarchs for, or I could run an easy pair of Tombstalkers instead of the Persecutors...
Few cost cards in your list that are necessarily out of my price range (FoW, Recruiter, Jace), even if I know they would strictly improve my list's goal.
Love the addition of Lavamancer and Dragonmaster, though-- definitely going to make space for them in mine. Did notice that you upped the counterspell and burn suites compared to the added mana-combos in my list... Not sure I'll be going that route, but I may find some spaces to cut in playing (for the moment, I'll be keeping the Monoliths, Reset, and such), but nothing immediately jumps to mind as being a "weak link".
My suggestion (as it always seems to be...) would be Nin, the Pain Artist. Load the deck up with combos to get infinite mana, and find a creature to target to deck a player out!
The deck can get pretty expensive to build with that in mind -but honestly what deck doesn't get up there in cost? But it opens up a lot of different areas to play in; Basalt Monolith + Power Artifact/Rings of Brighthearth, Reset/Turnabout + Izzet Guildmage/Nivix Guildmage/Reiterate, and quite a few more that also work.... Can easily be run in an artifact-centric deck, or played with more copy effects to create a spellslinger type of build.
My two bits, though; I've been having a blast playing with Nin, even when I end up fizzling out trying to draw out a combo.
I run a number of different infinite mana combos in Nin, but that's because they combo WITH Nin.
That's not to say I haven't had similar events happen, like fizzling out after casting Omniscience with one of my older decks, or floating a bajillion mana and not actually having something useful to do with it (or it was countered)... Just learn from the mistake, change it up, and restart!
Think I'll make some adjustments to include some of those... If I can rope in a quicker victory than I've been experiencing, more of the "Counter unless" spells would become viable.
My personal suggestion would be similar to those above me; if you don't like that deck, or if you have difficulty playing against that strategy in particular... Modify your own technique. Every color has a way to at least slow down those fetches/tutors/land-searchers, and at least one of them has several. You could alternatively play cards that punish players who do that, forcing them to sacrifice down to a certain number of lands (Keldon Firebombers and friends), or dealing damage for each land tapped or land on the field...
It may not be fun to cut some of the cards that you know and love playing with, but the rewards of punishing that particular play-style could include simply making it less prevalent -he/she might end up relying more on artifact ramp instead of fetches, for instance, or adopt a different strategy to overcome yours.
Well, put together the decklist in general... Didn't have the money to buy all of the fetches at once, but got most of the combo pieces together (sans Reset, unfortunately).
Went with Sneak Attack over S&T, have to say it was a greeeaaat decision after playtesting it for a quick few games. Potential combo win turns 4 and 5, counterspell backup and a few choice pieces of spot removal... I'll probably add Merchant Scroll and Mystical Tutor shortly to give some extra reliability.
Biggest problem I can tell thus far is that the CMC2 and CMC 3 spots are filled heavily, with little 0/1 aside from utility. I may need to look into more 1-cost answers/drops to fill the holes.
Pulled Tradewind Rider for Deceiver Exarch - Redundancy makes me smile.
Wondering if it's worth it at this point to keep S&T. Sneak Attack would make more sense given that I'm still fairly high on bodies, and most of them would have an immediate use for me.
Any more suggestions, or should I blow the ~$300 I need to make this happen in its current form so I can really test it?
Ordinarily, if I (or somebody else) accomplishes an "I win" boardstate, they pass the turn. If nobody has an answer by their next draw, game's over. If the game's drawing on and on, though, everybody sighs from relief and scoops up for the next round.
There aren't really any "taboo" cards or combos in my groups; they generally accept the existence of such a victory, and prepare to play against it.
Noted on the Wall; it was borderline on my list of cards to cut from the list, since I've had a good amount of games saved by a Kiki/Deadeye + Wall + stall spell lock. You're right about how it's too slow, though, especially now that I've posted what it does that helps me out...
- Wall, + Snapcaster
Edit: Most of the choices by design are the infinite mana engines, apparently- seeing as how Nin + {r}{u}{100} equals a win provided there's a creature to target. Other cards are used to fuel the combo win (Omni/Dream/Mind) by letting me sacrifice cards that my General can easily provide. That does remind me that I forgot about Expedition Map, though (added it in).
I want to fit in the Elders as well, but I'm a bit iffy on whether or not I want to cut the Scullers; those little guys provide a lot of value.
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tidehollow Sculler
Sorceries:
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
4 Death Cloud
Instants:
1 Path to Exile
3 Dismember
2 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Trinisphere
Planeswalkers:
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Vraska the Unseen
Lands:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Woodland Cemetery
1 Isolated Chapel
2 Sunpetal Grove
1 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
Either way, I'm feeling pretty good about the deck. Lots of hand disruption, trinisphere to plug up combos, and the creatures aren't half-bad either. Still haven't decided if the Bloodghasts are worth it or not, since they serve a purpose... But that purpose is almost as easily reached on the back of Lingering Souls. I just need to keep at least one land in hand after a resolved Death Cloud, and things are pretty set on my side. Going so light on spot removal also seems to be a very small issue, considering that the dorks make it easy to ramp into Lili or a Cloud.
Feels like I'm going to be very weak against Tron no matter what I try, though. SB helps with that and allows me to pull out my weak links (3Sphere and Bloodghast) for appropriate hate... Might wind up with Smallpox in the SB to help deny more lands.
Games 1 and 2, I was playing Doran. Successfully locked down my opponents to a grind both games, but won #1 because game 2 they were focusing on me (not that I blame them). I actually like making myself a target, because it lets the non-interactive players push ahead... Games 3 and 4, I used Nin. Game 3, I combo'd into a win on turn 6 due to an opponent's misplay. Game 4, I was the target again. I could've won on turn 6 again through a lucky streak of draws... But it was obvious to me that it would be more fun for the other players to just duke it out after I was gone. The fact that I *could* have won makes me feel fine about scooping up and calling it good, and the fact that the other players enjoyed themselves made it even better.
That said, I fully support groups that try and spread out their strategies-- I like making things interesting, and seeing how I can do through some more difficult situations is a blast for me. If I have to scoop through MLD, I overextended; if I lose to a combo, I need to learn when my counters are being baited; if I get beaten to death by a swarm, I need to pick and choose when to present a threat. It all comes down to what you and your group are comfortable with, but I think the fun comes from the challenge.
The only question I have would be... No Supreme Verdict at all? Seems like it would be a perfect out for you after Dovescape is down, on the chance that your opponent gets a swarm out before you do. The only cut I would try for it would be -1 Qasali Ambusher to place one in since you already run Demand as a tutor, and I very much doubt you'd want to see it every game.
Aside from that, I've gotta reiterate that it does seem like a very fun deck to play with, and maybe even against.
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Bloodghast
4 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Mirran Crusader
Sorceries:
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
3 Death Cloud
1 Path to Exile
3 Dismember
Artifacts:
2 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Trinisphere
Planeswalkers:
3 Liliana of the Veil
Lands:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Woodland Cemetery
1 Isolated Chapel
2 Sunpetal Grove
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
Still very light on spot removal, but trying to shoot for a t2 Trinisphere slows down a lot of decks that I play against. Not sure if I want to put Smallpox in quite yet, but I've got time to test it and (possibly) get some critique and suggestions.
The deck I've been playing is incredibly awkward, but holds somewhere over a 50-50 win/loss against the people I'm playing with. Ideally, I'd like to bump that up to at least a 60-40 against my field, but I'm not completely hopeful that it'll get to be that good without a complete overhaul.
That said, here's the list:
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Abyssal Persecutor
Sorceries:
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
3 Death Cloud
2 Path to Exile
2 Dismember
Artifacts:
2 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Trinisphere
Planeswalkers:
3 Liliana of the Veil
Lands:
5 Swamp
6 Forest
3 Plains
4 Woodland Cemetery
1 Isolated Chapel
3 Sunpetal Grove
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Stony Silence
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Dismember
I know the manabase is absolutely terrible to begin with, since I'm lacking any fetches or shocks at the moment... That'll be slowly remedied. The muddled out sideboard is an old habit from Legacy; it's harder to be prepared against an array of hate cards than against full sets of any one in particular.
Primary thoughts in my mind would be: Bloodghast and Smallpox would make good inclusions. Extremely light on spot removal right now, may need to remedy that as well. Deathrite Shaman may be worth replacing the Hierarchs for, or I could run an easy pair of Tombstalkers instead of the Persecutors...
Love the addition of Lavamancer and Dragonmaster, though-- definitely going to make space for them in mine. Did notice that you upped the counterspell and burn suites compared to the added mana-combos in my list... Not sure I'll be going that route, but I may find some spaces to cut in playing (for the moment, I'll be keeping the Monoliths, Reset, and such), but nothing immediately jumps to mind as being a "weak link".
The deck can get pretty expensive to build with that in mind -but honestly what deck doesn't get up there in cost? But it opens up a lot of different areas to play in; Basalt Monolith + Power Artifact/Rings of Brighthearth, Reset/Turnabout + Izzet Guildmage/Nivix Guildmage/Reiterate, and quite a few more that also work.... Can easily be run in an artifact-centric deck, or played with more copy effects to create a spellslinger type of build.
My two bits, though; I've been having a blast playing with Nin, even when I end up fizzling out trying to draw out a combo.
That's not to say I haven't had similar events happen, like fizzling out after casting Omniscience with one of my older decks, or floating a bajillion mana and not actually having something useful to do with it (or it was countered)... Just learn from the mistake, change it up, and restart!
-trading post, electrolyze, recruiter (cost issue), kira, glen elandra:: + Gitaxian Probe, Spell Snare, Dispel, Spell Pierce, Pyroblast.
It may not be fun to cut some of the cards that you know and love playing with, but the rewards of punishing that particular play-style could include simply making it less prevalent -he/she might end up relying more on artifact ramp instead of fetches, for instance, or adopt a different strategy to overcome yours.
Went with Sneak Attack over S&T, have to say it was a greeeaaat decision after playtesting it for a quick few games. Potential combo win turns 4 and 5, counterspell backup and a few choice pieces of spot removal... I'll probably add Merchant Scroll and Mystical Tutor shortly to give some extra reliability.
Biggest problem I can tell thus far is that the CMC2 and CMC 3 spots are filled heavily, with little 0/1 aside from utility. I may need to look into more 1-cost answers/drops to fill the holes.
Wondering if it's worth it at this point to keep S&T. Sneak Attack would make more sense given that I'm still fairly high on bodies, and most of them would have an immediate use for me.
Any more suggestions, or should I blow the ~$300 I need to make this happen in its current form so I can really test it?
There aren't really any "taboo" cards or combos in my groups; they generally accept the existence of such a victory, and prepare to play against it.
- Wall, + Snapcaster
Edit: Most of the choices by design are the infinite mana engines, apparently- seeing as how Nin + {r}{u}{100} equals a win provided there's a creature to target. Other cards are used to fuel the combo win (Omni/Dream/Mind) by letting me sacrifice cards that my General can easily provide. That does remind me that I forgot about Expedition Map, though (added it in).