MTG Salvation

The difference between the commander and Sublime Archangel (imo), is that off a Wave, the angel works to turn 1 thing into effectively a Craterhoof sans trample, assuming you have anything untapped from the start of the turn. In comparison the Commander buffs all your guys generally dependent on the size of the wave. The only interaction with bell-ringer is in untapping what you used to cast the wave in the first place, all of which would receive the bonus. Much like another Craterhoof. And having more bell-ringers simply makes that interaction more likely.

Sublime seems to be better at all-in-ing with Craterhoof, and the Commander can work in place of Craterhoof, to an extent.

I'm curious as to what most people are using Bell-Ringer for, as it's been pretty much the linchpin to this deck for me. Having access to more of them just means I can run them aggressively as ramp, and still expect to have access to them when I need to win off a Wave. I won numerous games on the weekend with it allowing me to Genesis Wave for 14-15 on turn 4.

Quote from synack

Quick addition. A friend of mine suggested a one of Sublime Archangel as a alternate win con when you wave. I'm also pondering putting in Sun Titan(s) in the sideboard vs sweepers. It's either that or Faith's Reward, really depends if I think I'm going to have mana open more often than not for Faith's Reward.

I was thinking about Sublime, but I was leaning more towards trying a 1-of Goldnight Commander (again admittedly due to running an increased bell-ringer count) for a similar purpose.

But just running more Bell-Ringers means that when you Gen Wave you have a better chance to hit one (and subsequently don't need to wave for any less than full value). And that means better Craterhoofs, and a ton more mana. And unless you're packing Ezuri(s) there's not really much else to do with it. Restoration Angel just doesn't offer the same kind of benefit. Why play the slow grindy game with expensive creatures to try and generate a little CA when you could just win the game?

I won my game day today with this list:


SB needs some serious work, but in general I'm prefering this setup. Village Bell-Ringer is just more relevant synergy-wise for this deck and reversing the numbers on them and Restoration Angel just made a lot of sense. In the matchups where I want them I like having access to them and Thragtusk out of the board, but they just don't seem to provide the same kind of action. And increased Bell-Ringer count also helps improve additional Ezuris, and seems to help get obscene Genesis Waves going earlier.

I ran this list to a 5-2 finish at a 4k event in Toronto yesterday. It's not really a typical list, but there's actually very little I'd change out of it. End result was 25th out of a field of 160+:


It was a long day, and I don't remember everything in terribly precise detail, but to the best of my memory the games played out as follows.

Round 1: Vs Mageblade
Game 1 we got in to a back and forth fight with Swords of War and Peace, both on hexproof creatures, until I managed to resolve a Sylvok Replica. Both decks played to expectation, but his removal wasn't going to help him, and mine was.

SB +1 Thrun, +1 Beast Within, -2 Garruk Relentless

Game 2: My opponent kept a one lander, expecting to draw out of it I guess, but stalled on 2, and I proceeded to play 3 dungrove's and a metamorph.
1-0

I'm confident enough in this matchup, but I found I was having a lot of trouble sideboarding properly for the start of the day, without a larger GSZ pool it was hard to really pull things out even when I knew what I wanted to bring in.

Round 2: vs Mageblade
Game 1 I put up a decent fight, but drew in to too few hexproof guys, and just couldn't get there fast enough against his start. I may have also wound up with Feast and Famine rather than War and Peace, which while still good, didn't keep me in the game long enough.

SB +1 Thrun, +1 Replica, +2 Autumns Veil, +1 Beast Within, -1 Vorapede, -1 Primal Hunter, -1 Huntmaster, -1 Garruk Relentless, -1 Forest

(I wound up siding like this alot, dropping my high end, and a land in order to fit in more SB cards)

Games 2 & 3 Both played out pretty similarly, resolving Thrun, and more hexproof guys for the win. I don't remember much more than that, but both games ended with an overwhelming board presence on my side with both Thrun and Strangleroots/Dungrove. And having used Replica's to keep myself safe from any swords.
2-0

Round 3: Zombies
I don't much like this matchup, mortarpod is problematic, and that's pretty much how I lost game 1. He wound up on the play, and that really made most of the difference. Turn 1 Gravecrawler, turn 2 Mortarpod sort of took the wind right out of my sails, and I never really got to recover. My opener was the find that had Feast and Famine turning sideways on turn 3, and on the play I'd have still had a bird equipped with it. But the recursive removal followed by Liliana just did me in.

SB +1 Surgical Extraction, +1 Sylvok Replica, +1 Beast Within, -1 Vorrapede, -1 Primal Hunter, -1 Relentless

Game 2 went better, but not by much, we both had reasonable starts, and I managed to run out an early Relentless to kill a gravecrawler followed by Surgical extraction. But Phyrexian Obliterator causes some problems... I got it coppied with a Metamorph, but I was on low enough health that I couldn't just block with a deathtouch wolf, and was forced to effectively reset the board. Despite being the one with a planeswalker I was at such low life that I really had no outs to come back with.
2-1

Round 4: vs RG Midrange
This is an awful matchup. At least so far as I could tell, I don't remember a ton of specifics but I just got out raced by what felt like a mirror meant to beat the mirror. I missplayed pretty badly in game 2, and got stalled on 3 lands, but even without that I don't think I'd have pulled out a win in this match. I boarded in Glissa and didn't feel I had much else relevant to bring in, though I should have probably brought in the Ratchet Bombs as well.
2-2

Round 5: vs UW Humans
This on the other hand felt like a perfectly reasonable matchup, game 1 I was able to run out Dungrove's/Geists to keep his generally smaller creatures at bay, and an early Feast and Famine helped me establish a strong opener (I believe it turned sideways on turn 3 untapping to drop Dungrove). All his removal seemed to be on board (Oblivion Ring for my Sword, Fiend Hunter for my Huntmaster) and I had answers for most of it. Replica recovering from O-ring, and Relentless bringing down the Fiend Hunter for an overwhelming board presence.

SB: +1 Sylvok Replica, +1 Thrun, -1 Primal Hunter, -1 Relentless

Game 2 wasn't much of a game, opponent drew 5-6 lands in a row and I just turned things sideways.
3-2

Round 6: vs Zombies
I wasn't happy seeing a gravecrawler out on the opening play, but my start was quick enough (3 BoP's in hand) to get my aggressive game going and hexproof creatures kept me above his one-drops with birds to spare for edicts.

SB: +1 Surgical Extraction, +1 Beast Within, +1 Thrun, -1 Huntmaster, -1 Primal Hunter, -1 Relentless

Game 2 zombies did what Zombies do, my only Thrun was answered with a Phantasmal Image, and I just could get enough pressure on the table to be the aggressor.

Game 3 I saw all 3 Thruns and more or less rode them to victory, my opponent resolved an Obliterator, but I managed to negate it with a sword of War and Peace forcing it on to the defensive. And a resolved Tanglewurm forced my opponent to Black Sun's to stay in the game, returning a strangleroot geist on my end to carry the sword to victory.
4-2

Round 7: vs Tempered Steel
I was expecting just about anything other than this going in to the final round, and the turn 1 Glint Hawk had me out of the game right then and there, I tried to keep up, but too many aggressive fliers, and too few kill spells just couldn't keep up.

SB: +1 Glissa, +2 Ratchet Bomb, +1 Sylvok Replica, +1 Corrosive Gail, -1 Primal Hunter, -1 Vorrapede, -1 Huntmaster, -1 Relentless, -1 Forest

I was feeling pretty confident going in to game 2, I hadn't really planned for Tempered Steel, but the mainboard Replica's and Glissa in the board had me well positioned anyways. I got an aggressive start against my opponents team of non-flyers, and birds carried a Sword of Feast and Famine for multiple turns to winnow my opponents hand and keep me well ahead in board position. Garruk Relentless, Sylvok Replica and Phyrexian Metamorph kept the dangerous things off the table.

Game 3 was tense, I wound up winning at 1 life, thanks to the combined efforts of Glissa, Ratchet Bombs, Replicas, Relentless and enough Dungroves/Strangleroot Geists to keep the ground clear. I was dead on the table to a Tempered Steel off the top for multiple turns, but it never materialized and I managed to stabilize with enough with enough of a board presence that my opponent simply couldn't get that last point of damage in.
5-2

All in all the deck was a lot of fun to play, and the only card I really missed all day was a 1 of Viridian Corrupter in the board so that I could have a Green Sun's target in the matchups when I needed it. Sylvok Replica did everything I needed it to in the main, without having to get to the high-end for Acidic Slime, and I could still tutor it up (and did, multiple times) with Garruk, the Veil-Cursed. And though I never played against one it could block Mirran Crusader in a pinch, and it's body was actually a big help in a couple matchups where it could stall a 2/2 or win in a fight with a Gravecrawler.

It's unnecessary. Faithless Looting is pure Card Quality, and not Card Advantage. Burn already has some of the most consistent draws in the format, there really isn't much need for any more. And certainly not any without damage attached to it.

Take a look at the first page of this thread, someone asked a similar question within the first 15 posts. What it basically boils down to is Pyroblast can target non-blue spells/permanents while REB can only target blue ones. The effect is almost negligible for Burn, and relevant in combo decks, where they can cast out a Pyroblast/Hydroblast without a relevant target in order to still net +1 storm.

Yost was likely just running the 1 Pyroblast as a 5th REB.

Quote from Teacher RL

I'm thinking in get Fork in sideboard against Epic Storm and some storm combos. I have some doubts what happen if we fork Tendrils of Agony? We reply all their ToA more one right?

If memory serves, no.

Fork only becomes a copy of the spell on the stack upon resolution. So they cast, storm, you cast, resolve, and have a single copy of ToA on the stack, having not cast the spell itself.

Congrats Austin! Glad to see people still willing to take burn to big events. Good to not only see the deck represented but Barbarian Ring as well. I've been out of the loop for forever, but how long have you been running the Figures/Flame Rifts? Are those more or less the standard choices nowadays? [EDIT] Figure question already answered, no worries.

As always when a deck shows well I'd expect to see it more represented in the meta, and better prepared for. But as is always the case with burn (and legacy for that matter), the meta will shift, or interest will fade and Burn's ability/presence in the format will fluctuate accordingly. The funniest thing I can see coming of this is the price of Chain Lightning going up...

@Endarius:
Fork is better for us. And it sadly isn't quite good enough to make the cut. At least with Fork you can copy an opponents counterspell or other such shenanigans, and the flashback cost on vengeance is too high to really take seriously.

The Lens should probably get the axe, in testing it works OK, but it's not really anything to write home about, and despite the CA/evasion it provides, any piece of removal could probably be just as effective.

I had put it in mainly to set up win-win scenarios with the rats, and with my opponent's fore-knowledge of me running ninjas. The idea was that I either get to draw cards, or it gives the creature the evasion it needs in order to let me ninjitsu. But it was only really relevant on the Ravenous/Chittering Rats and Ninjas once they were already on the board. And there are plenty of matches where it's just useless, where it has no interactions with the opponent or they just have removal to circumnavigate the setup.

Sadly I couldn't make it out to the tourny but in testing the night before the deck had a pretty solid game against Gifts Lifegain, Pyromancers/Grapeshot Storm, and Mythic Conscription (nothing overly relevant, but still), and an abysmal match against Goryo's Vengeance and Melira Combo. Sadly I didn't get the chance to test much more aggro stuff, which is I expect the decks biggest problem.

To address Liliana/Lens, quite honestly I added them in for CA, and because both suited the deck quite well. Neither really get relied on too much, but do wonders to support what's already going on. The real Crutch for the deck is Swarmyard. It means I don't have to worry so much about evasion, simply because I can walk guys right in to possible blocks, and still have them around. The other thing to keep in mind is that Typhoid Rats might as well have evasion. His interactions with Swarmyard are cute as hell (and effective to boot), but his real merit is that he drops at 1, and will usually swing through unperturbed, and is then easily recast to block if need be/mana allowing. This slot was originally Nezumi Cutthroat, but the moment we saw Typhoid Rats there was no real question which fit the deck better.

It's the combined effort in hand disruption that wins games, more so than the ninjas at least. They provide strong interactions, and give me additional mileage out of my discard effects. Swarmyard means more of your dudes stick around, and it generally wins off of incremental damage in addition to continuous hand disruption.

And Patron is pretty funny. Even when he's only popping out on turn four following a Chittering Rats. He really isn't much of a creature, but sometimes you just need a big body with a flexible CC. The original legacy list (can't find the link atm) could get away with both Crypt Rats as a source of mass removal (repetitive/selective with swarmyard), and Balthor the Defiled for an end game win-con/reset button. Unfortunately neither one of which is available to us.

Apparently there's plenty of ways to go with this deck, more than I'd considered though I certainly tested a bunch of different itterations. Here's what I'm running at the moment for Vengeance, though it is not so much Ramp as it is PW control with combo outs/inevitability. I've posted this elsewhere previously but hadn't realised there was a thread dedicated to Vengeance:



The deck isn't centered on vengeance so much, but it is still a reliable and incredibly capable win condition. I'm just supplementing it with alternatives and a board control shell. Also Chandra, the Firebrand is awfully hard to pass up in any list with vengeance.

I had also built a Jund walkers list that was still trying to pull off vengeance but the mana in combination with trying to run 3 colours, nexus and spells with GGG and BBB in their costs was enormously prohibitive. I hadn't really considered b/g simply because in my mind Chandra was always the real all-star with vengeance (and most other things).

I was just going to make a thread for this deck before I noticed this sticky, and figured it made as much sense in here as anywhere else. I'm going to be playing this list at a local modern tournament tomorrow. It won't be anything big, but I'm looking forward to playing the deck.

It is not a typical ninja list, though it's well possible that someone else has posted something similar in here already. It's based off of an old Legacy list called "The Rat Pack", and it looks a little something like this:



So there may be another tribal theme overriding the Ninjas, but it still uses them to generate CA, and who knows maybe someone else will get some ideas from the list. I'm sold on every slot except the Night's Whisper, that could easily be more removal, or more hand disruption, and I'm not really sure where to take it.

I'm not running Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni despite it being a pretty amazing card, simply because even it's Ninjutsu cost is a little too steep. And the Patron has the ability to just come out of nowhere, even if his ability isn't anything impressive the body he brings with him for as little as 2 mana at instant speed certainly is.

Here's my problem with Karn. I know he's a monster to most board positions, but in terms of what he accomplishes for this deck, he's just a Liliana that costs 4 more to cast. His -3 is the only really consistently relevant ability, but unlike Liliana I can't properly interact with him using proliferate. It would be very difficult to keep him able to -3 without having to pause to use his +4. Similarly proliferate isn't really going to help me get to his ult any faster than just using his + ability, and once there it's not like I've any interest in him still having loyalty after using it. The other thing is that the only slot he could potentially take in the list is the one Sorin's Vengeance is filling, and I have to admit I'm pretty partial to it.

I do have to admit that Nexus isn't quite as strong as it was in previous builds running Grim Affliction. The decreased number of proliferate spells means it's that much harder to win through poision, but they were never really a primary win-con anyways. They represent potential, and they're worth the slot just for it. The deck is light on early plays, and sometimes just getting in there for a poison on turn 2 can make a big difference (not that I really recommend it in an environment full of Gutshot et all). They provide you with options, and that's never really a bad thing.

I'm not really sure what deck could actually reach the critical mass of threats that you're talking about in the current meta though. I'm running a lot of weenie hate because that's what the meta is (for the most part), and for anything else my walkers generally cover any additional reach I might need.

And thanks Amaury, though I have to say I haven't actually touched Cockatrice yet, so I'm glad to see there are others out there working on similar builds. I know there were some guys on here building a b/r Aggro shell using Liliana/Chandra/Gambit/Volt Charge, and the red creatures that use +1/+1 counters, + phoenix for CA with Liliana.

Solemn actually wouldn't be too bad in here, but the problem is that the sphere plays a pretty crucial role in making sure your walkers actually hit on/before their expected turns. The other thing is that the curve of the deck is so heavy on three drops that being able to get to 6 as fast as possible can be a big help. And the sphere manages that without exacerbating it by adding another 4 drop in to the mix.

I put up a bunch of explanations for the card choices, most of it is pretty obvious stuff, but I'm always looking for more input so anything that can provide others with more information seems reasonable.