The first thing the naysayers commented was, "does Lorescale Coatl see Legacy play?" as if that answered the question right then and there. But there are a lot of differences that honestly make me think of Goyf with this guy.
1) the casting cost being 2U means it fits into lots of decks that could play it. BUG, RUG, Delver, whatever. It's easily splashed, much like goyf can just be thrown into virtually any deck running green.
2) it rewards you for playing cards that, as a legacy blue player, you are already running. You don't have to add anything to make Skulker better, because you're already running Brainstorm and probably other draw as well (Gitaxian Probe, Street Wraith, etc). In addition it counts your normal draws.
3) It replaces itself when it dies (short of Swords/Path). That's a big deal, because it means if you play it on turn 3 with no draw spells to immediately pump it, that's the only time your opponent can kill it and you gain absolutely zero value. If you play it later with the potential to draw in response to removal, you will at least get 1+ tokens out of the deal. And delver/Pyromancer builds have shown that tokens can smash face in legacy. Especially islandwalking tokens.
The easy casting cost, the value when it dies, and the "Brainstorm, draw for turn, swing for 5?" just screams playable to me. This is not Lorescale Coatl, it's much better. I honestly really want to try him out in a UR Pyromancer build.
The trick with her so far in my testing has been, what "big spells" do you play? So far my best plays have been Time Warp effects; anything that gets me additional turns or puts me ahead in some way.
Spot removal and taking extra turns, so far, is all I've got. I WANT to abuse her by putting in things like Apocalypse and Jokulhaups, but doing so kills your ability to re-cast her which is obviously where her strength lies.. =/ Additionally, I want to cast things like Monomania or Wit's End or Sorin's Vengeance, but those target single players, while Jeleva works best in a multiplayer game, exiling many player's spells.
Lastly, I want to run things that help her deal damage or at least move my own game forward, but if you don't run a critical mass of spells you end up blanking on her ETB ability; so far I average one spell on her first casting, 2-3 on her second, and usually by her third it's about game over; but I feel like I'm not really doing much to the field itself. It totally depends on what my opponent has.
Anyone have any ideas on how to tighten it down a bit?
I had to use Gatherer to remember some of their names, but these are what I'm currently thinking of abusing the hell out of
There aren't a lot of critters I want to abuse with Jeleva, but the ones I do are mostly Nucklavee and Galvanoth; I want to be able to re-cast, or cast for free, my big spells, ideally leaving my mana free to cast/recast Jeleva as often as possible. I also want to be able to use my opponent's spells against him; that way I not only get my own spells to abuse, but my opponent's can help me dip into other color and spells I can't run in my own list. To that effect, Blatant Thievery, Bribery, Mind's Desire, Spelltwine and Knowledge Exploitation all seem like entertaining cards to use.
The only thing I'm worried about is a real win condition. do I just mess with my opponent so much that I get enough damage through with whatever critters I can get out? Or is there a stupid combo I'm forgetting about that will let me win the game without dealing 21 general damage...
Exactly. My Sun Quan, Lord of Wu does have a healthy number of counterspells, but those are surgical tools, not "Counter Everything so you can't play".
A deck can be built in any way, and can have ANY number of infinite combos and unfair things... the issue comes in with how you play it.
EDH is interesting in this way because not only should you be trying to win, you should be trying to craft an interesting gameplay experience for everyone involved.
Of course, this is why I typically choose unique generals that aren't always the strictly most powerful choice. The current decks I have together are Zhang Fei, Fierce Warrior (w/Guan Yu and Lui Bei), Sun Quan, Xiahou Dun, Diaochan (w/Lu Bu), Lady Zhurong, and Karn.
With them, I'm actually trying to work to keep them in their section of the color pie unless an effect is necessary to not be left behind on the table- monocolor decks should play differently from each other.
Tournament Magic- Legacy, Modern, Standard- is pretty much like a Nascar race- all the decks that see heavy play are mostly equivalent, and it's small differences and the performance on that day that lead to who takes home the prize.
Multiplayer EDH is like a weekend cruise- people are trotting out their low riders, their blinged out rims, hopping up on their hydraulics, blasting music and moving everything along at a chill pace. Don't be the guy who turns that cruise into a drag race that needs to be won by bashing everyone into the ditch. Nobody wants that guy to be around.
This is how I play. I enjoy playing with otherwise lack-luster commanders because hey, they're in my binder, and otherwise they'll just sit there gathering dust for the next decade. So I play a mono black with Shaku, the Endbringer as my general, and its fun. It's not my 1v1 competitive deck, but it's one I enjoy playing and it gives variance to my playgroup, so I like it.
I myself have 5-6 decks at any given time, so I try to have a variety of different styles. I can play fun, interactive and unusual decks, I can play 1v1 competitive lists (where the prize is often a dual land or something similar, yeah, I'm there to make you cry and take home the trophy), I can play big 5-6 player multiplayer Planechase events...whatever. I like to be able to switch it up.
In terms of what cards or strategies piss me off....non-interactive strategies, I guess? Or "mass slow down" cards like Nether Void, Smokestack, mass land destruction. In 1v1 I understand that those strategies are fair, and they're not nearly as infuriating; in a big multiplayer game, where a well timed Armageddon or Boom//Bust can slow the next 10 turns to a complete crawl? You're an *******. Infinite combos don't get me too much, because to me it still takes a fair amount of work to assemble any infinite combo, and if you get me before I can interrupt you or kill you flat out, then you probably deserve to win, especially seeing as how your infinite combo is probably 3-5 cards(!).
So yeah, in general, I'd have to say stax/mass counterspells are most likely to make me walk away. A buddy of mine has a mono blue deck that's basically Morphing/Opposition/Stax/Counters, and I refuse to play that deck unless we're in a tournament. It's beyond infuriating.
hey man i like the idea of Seance but how do you deal against aggro decks like uw aggro, RDW or even UWR midrange that puts alot of pressure really fast.. it seems like Seance takes alot of slots even if it helps later in the game by exiling a thragtusk but at that moment is T4 and your dead against pretty much any aggro deck with a good hand.
the deck lacks of removal, so whats your plan against it??
and btw what do you think about Thundermaw Hellkite with haste it can attack right away or even you can do it to tap all of their flyers in hes turn if you need it against lets say a miracle or a swarm of resto angels
The early game rush is mitigated by cards like Centaur Healer; if aggro (especially aggro that can kill you by turn 4) is prevalent in your meta, then you need to run more Healer to compensate for that. My previous versions were running Restoration Angel as well, which would often just prove too much for aggro to handle - the turn 3 Healer into a turn 4 Restoration Angel, blink, double block was just too much for them. Now that super quick aggro is on the fall, that's not so much a problem anymore.
Generally speaking, your early plays are drawing/filtering as much as possible, hit a turn 3 Healer, and a turn 4 reanimation or Seance to start reanimating multiple dudes. Yes, it's a slower start, but depending on your meta that doesn't matter. And it's not like you're not doing anything - you're filtering cards, and making sure your mid/late game is better. If you run Lingering Souls, you play those out and chumps to buy you time. In my opinion, turns 4/5 are really when this deck start to hit hard. Everything else is just surviving.
On the Hellkite - I love him in certain builds, but it really depends on your build. I don't believe he fits in a Frites list, but I DO think he belongs in a Seance list, if that makes sense. If you ran Seance in a R/W or R/W/G list, then I'd say yes, obviously you run Hellkite. As it is, we're more Junk colors with a splash for red, and that's not the best environment for Hellkite. Just my opinion, though; test it out. If he smashes face, more power to you.
As someone who has played Seance since right before R2R was released, I can tell you that the card is spectacular.
Yes, Seance and Trostani don't work together. That's one card, and Trostani's value is elsewhere. If anything Seance is BETTER than unburial rites, because it's every turn. You can't attack with the token, but you can certainly get value out of it's ETB effects; and if it's something like a Thragtusk, it leaves a body behind. Seance-ing a Thragtusk on my opp's turn, blocking their dude, gaining 5 and getting a 3/3 to attack next turn has absolutely won me games. Seance-ing back a Restoration Angel, blinking a Thragtusk, has won me games. Seance-ing back a Disciple of Bolas, saccing Thragtusk, has won me games.
Think outside the box.
My latest version of Seance (because I actually run a Seance list, and have only recently changed it out to make it a little more "Frites-like"), gets solid card selection and draw with the usual Looting, Grisly Salvage, etc; which then leads to late game advantage when Seance hits the field and the majority of my dudes start pulling double duty. Reanimate when you can, obviously, but you're also casting creatures as well: Seancing an Angel of Serenity on their turn to exile three dudes, swing with your team, then bounce their dudes to their hand? Seems Good. Or Seance the angel during their turn, bounce two threats and one dude for you, then recast it during your turn? I don't know about you guys, but I love getting double or even triple value out of my cards.
Trostani in play makes Seance broken - I have won numerous games by populating Thragtusk tokens to a ridiculous degree, gaining 8 life every time Trostani populates..that's, in a word, awesome. Trostani is certainly not required to make Seance work, but it's certainly beyond broken when she does.
For reference, I've been top 4ing FNM with this list every week, and I got 16th at States with a 5 color version. I think adding in Unburial Rites will make it even stronger, but hey, if you don't want to run Seance, by all means. Yes, it gets O-Ringed and D-sphere'd, but it's just ADDED value, it's not NECESSARY value. The idea is to create an overwhelming mass of dudes from hand and dudes from graveyard. Seance, Unburial Rites and your hand give you an overwhelming advantage.
But by all means, don't play it if you think it's too weak.....
This is the latest direction I've taken mine as well. Frites can just explode with card selection, and dumping dudes into the yard makes Seance that much better.
Have you considered Trostani, maybe as 1-of? It may gain MUCH more life, that I feel may be necessary. Other options I am thinking about: if Jund gets really prevalent, Loxodon Smiter is much resilient to their discard (some also carry Lili) and better fast blocker than Centaur. Also Deathrite Shaman may be a fine tool off the bench against evil plays like Snapcaster'd entreats, reanimated Angels of Serenity, or recurring zombies especially the life-draining Messenger.
My team's original build ran three Trostani; when we took the deck to 4 and 5 colors, we cut her because of the intense mana requirements. Two of the team have since cut back to 3 colors again and both run Trostani - she's awesome at what she does, but I still dislike her; she's a naturally defensive card, and lifegain does not win you the game. I saw life totals in the 800s (850-some, if I recall), but the game goes super long and you may not even win, just draw. To me, the deck needs something more aggressive. Vorapede has been one answer that works extremely well - that and Disciple together are a tough duo.
Loxodon Smiter is also a possibility, except he does nothing for the overall plan of the deck. When he dies, his only benefit to Seance is as a blocker. And while Seance is just a part of the deck and not the lynchpin, I feel that running dudes that don't synergize with it is a mistake. Yes, Smiter is good against a Rakdos Return, and Liliana. But that's about it, and Rakdos' Return is really only brought in game 2 with Jund. Additionally, we have no turn 1 ramp, so Smiter is just a turn 3 beater.
Shaman is a possibility, though I haven't tested it yet. Being able to things can make a stalemate into a slow grind, which does occasionally happen with this version of the deck.
Related, here's my updated list. There doesn't seem to be a lot of interest in the archetype anymore, but I've had nothing but success with what I'm playing. All the excitement is in Jund midrange and UWx control, but my team's list beats both of those pretty easily. For this week, we're seeing what happens if we go back down to 4 colors and "aggro" the list a little bit more:
Changes are mostly just cutting blue. I was going to try Think Twice instead of the Forbidden Alchemy I've been running, but cutting blue entirely makes the mana much smoother. I haven't tried this list yet, it's all theoretical still.
Faithless Looting: Obviously Frites runs it to great effect, and if I was running Alchemy without a problem then the discard from Looting shouldn't be that big of a deal. Also, because it's cheaper, I can fit it more on-curve with what I'm playing: there were lots of times I would wait to Alchemy until later in the game, simply because I was too busy playing out threats to actually want to cast Alchemy. Looting should let me do that faster, giving me better options at the expense of ditching cards out of hand. That will be a problem if/when my hand gets low, which is why I'm also including Garruk, PH. Garruk, Primal Hunter: I don't really need to explain why Garruk is awesome. He's one of the best walkers against UWx control, and he makes up for the loss of card draw that occurs by cutting Disciple of Bolas entirely. He doesn't shoot opposing creatures, though; and he's another heavy drop, so I felt like I needed to compensate with... Abrupt Decay: I was running Oblivion Ring to deal with problem permanents, but you know what ends up happening in like 90% of my games? I'm O-Ringing an O-Ring (or Detention Sphere) to get my dudes back. And that's annoying as hell. If I'm going to do that, I might as well run Decay, which permanently deals with problems, is uncounterable, instant speed, etc etc. Decay does not hit Walkers the way O-Ring does though; I feel like that will be okay though, because the overall list is taking on a more aggro feel to it. Also, I have Hellkite. Thundermaw Hellkite: I'm taking a page out of Jund's book for this one. Hellkite is awesome, and is arguably my second favorite creature in standard right now. Being able to tap down angel tokens and swing into a Jace that UWx thought was protected, that's a good play. The double-red may be an issue, but we'll test it out and see how it goes. I think having a heavier-hitting, aggro version will do well. Barter in Blood: I will probably miss Supreme Verdict. Uncounterable and hits everything in play, no questions asked. Barter In Blood seems like the best alternative, and if they're forced to block a lot of my guys they should hopefully be low on creatures anyway. The downside is, of course, sometimes two guys isn't enough, and it probably won't save my ass if I'm starting to lose. But it's easier on the mana base and it still answers Geist of St. Traft, as well as other heavy hitters that something like Rolling Tremblor wouldn't. Selesyna Keyrune: Another nod to Jund. May end up being taken out, because as a 1x how vital can it be (plus, I think I'm at 61 cards)? I feel like having one more ramp spell, that survives a Verdict, Barter in Blood, and sorcery speed removal, is a really good thing. It's not a 3/1 first striker, but the G/W mana is more important for the deck and 3/3 still packs a hit. Being able to keep pressure on the UWx player, even after a Verdict or a Terminus, can really win you the game.
Opinions are always welcome. I feel like I'm the only one still really reading this thread and trying new ideas.
I'm sad that there's not a lot of interest in this build. I've been having CRAZY good success with it, and it only gets better with every update. For reference, here's my current list:
I decided to try out the Guildmage, which has had a net positive result. As other posters have said, being able to populate for 4 mana is just stupid; any game I start populating Thragtusks, I win. The card advantage is just too much at that point. Additionally, in the later turns (with 8+ mana), it just gets downright stupid. Guildmage also helps the early game, by giving me multiple things to do on turn 2. I can ramp if I have it, but I can also keep hands with a turn 2 Guildmage to help stall out the aggro rush. I have yet to use his 4WG ability (putting a centaur into play), but the ability to do so shouldn't be overlooked...
Angel of Serenity needs to be main, in every list. She is so good. She's absolutely game ending, even if removed. I'm probably going to up her to for this week's tournament, because I love seeing her. One has been effective, though, because of Garruk being maindeck.
Garruk was a card I kept siding in for almost all my games - he's good against control, he's good against Jund, and he's good against the WG aggro lists; and in all of those except control, it's spectacular to shoot one of their dudes, flip Garruk, then sacrifice a thragtusk to search out a Zealous Conscripts, play it, attack....I've won numerous games off the Garruk + Conscripts synergy (swinging for 15 damage in one turn seems good).
I've cut Disciple to a 1x solely because I don't know what else to cut. Disciple is a good card, but I never, ever liked seeing it in my opening hand, and it really only seemed necessary if I was falling behind. But honestly, as long as Seance lands - and sticks - I never really fall behind.
Slayer of the Wicked out of the board is the stone cold nuts. I didn't think it would be that impressive, but really...it kills everything Jund plays short of Thragtusk and Rakdos Keyrune. It kills everything Rakdos Aggro/Zombies plays; it kills Olivia, Vampire Nighthawk, Huntmaster, etc. etc. And it blocks like a champ. I didn't think it'd be that big of a deal, but so far I've been loving it out of the board.
Tragic Slip is a new addition I'll be trying this week. I really, REALLY miss having instant-speed removal, and most of my losses come from not being able to use spare mana at the end of my opponent's turn; or, for instance, killing their Thragtusk, then still having to deal with the Beast token left behind. If I could attack with my dudes, kill their Thragtusk, then Slip the beast token, I think that would have stolen some games for me.
Seriously though, give it a try. I've been having great success with it so far.
Where the hell did THAT come up...that's literally the first I've heard of that. I mean, seems awesome, but...how weird. I imagine that the Peddler being a 1/1 made it difficult to "live the dream" as often as one would hope...not to mention the weird mana base, but hey...if it works, it works, I guess. I'd just be interested in seeing a decklist that would run something like that.
IMO, Slaughter Games is not playable. Especially with decent control players not playing Mono-Entreat kill.
I completely disagree. I played Slaughter Games at States (I played a 5c Seance build my team and I designed), which not only hits Jund hard naming Thragtusk and/or Huntmaster, but also hits control where it hurts as well. I don't know why people are naming Entreat the Angels with Slaughter Games when you should be running Sever the Bloodline, anyway. You name Terminus and/or Supreme Verdict, which makes your dudes significantly harder to deal with and puts them on a much shorter clock.
Slaughter Games worked well for me every time I boarded it in.
This list is crossposted from the Seance thread - it started as a Seance deck, but since I wanted to build 5cc the second Izzet Charm was spoiled, and this list morphed into (and plays like) 5cc, I decided to post it here as well, so you guys can see a list that goes in a different direction from the lists I've seen here so far. This list got me 16th place out of 176 at Colorado States, with a 6-2 record. Tourney report in the spoilers.
The amount of synergy in this list is pretty high. Card draw and card selection wins you games, its as simple as that; with Thragtusk and Disciple and Restoration Angel my life really never dipped below 14 or so for too long, and Disciple would routinely draw me 3-5 cards, multiple times in a game. Hard to lose with that much card advantage.
Farseek and Mana Bloom make going 5 colors fairly easy; I would almost never have any problems casting spells in my hand, though occasionally making sure I had the mana to cast blue and/or black spells in my hand, while still trying to ramp up to Armada Wurm made things difficult. Pulled it off fairly well, though.
Round 1: The Mirror
Of course, out of 176-odd people, I get paired with a teammate running a near identical list in the first round. First game he gets to four land but he's only on green and white, I ramp into an Acidic Slime to hit his tempo, then land Thragtusk and that's basically the game. Game 2 was unfortunately more of the same, with him keeping a hand with no Farseek and me ramping into stupid stuff. Felt bad for beating a teammate so early. 1-0
Round 2: Jund Midrange
Turns out that Jund runs Golgari Charm main. =/ Turns out that Golgari Charm hits enchantments. =/ Game 1 he gets in with a Rakdos keyrune for the game, as I have no instant speed removal and he was just killing everything I played. They have a ton of removal, and while I can win without Seance, its a little tougher. I get game 2, but game 3 I kept a subpar hand and he got there. 1-1.
Round 3: Jund Midrange, again
This time I'm prepared for what I'll see, and I play accordingly. Huntmasters die as soon as they hit the field, Olivia and Nighthawks eat O-Rings, and (after board) Thragtusks go the way of the dodo when I Slaughter Games them. Thragtusk is a pain in the ass to deal with, and I much prefer I'm the only one casting them. Disciple keeps me in the game after I get hit with a Rakdos' Return. 2-1
Round 4: Rakdos Aggro
This was a red-bases build, with Nobles and Ash Zealots and a ton of burn, probably splashing black for Aristocrat. I say probably, because in game 1 he kept a 1 land hand and didn't draw another by turn 5, when I cast Acidic Slime, hit his mountain and he concedes. Game 2 he gets flooded, I drop a ton of Centaur Healers to stall out and make him waste his burn, and eventually he starts topdecking land. Tensest moment of this game: I go to 5 after attacks, untap, draw into Thragtusk. I have to drop my fifth land (an Overgrown Tomb) into play untapped in order to cast it. He has 2 mana open and 2 cards in hand. I drop to 3, expect to die, he just shakes his head and I drop Thragtusk. Next turn I topdeck Restoration Angel, blink Thragtusk, and that's the game. 3-1
Round 5: Bant Ramp
I'm a little pissed at this guy because he plays at another card shop local to me, and their team is known to spy on our team. Sure enough, he drops some lands, Farseeks, ramps into Thragtusks and Angel of Serenity and that's basically it. I find out that he didn't like running 5 color, so he cut it to Bant colors, runs Traft, and runs Achemists' Refuge, which allows him to instant-speed Verdict me during combat. =/ Seems good. Games 2 and 3 he boards in Traft which I wasn't expecting, and basically just Angels me out. I dug 16 cards deep with Forbidden Alchemy, and can't find a Seance OR a Sever. =/ Sad panda. 3-2
Round 6: Mono Red Aggro
This guy was playing a higher mana cost version, with Ash Zealots and Nobles on the low end, and Zealous Conscripts and Thundermaws at the high end. I don't remember too much about this game, other than Supreme Verdict eats his board, Sever hitting multiple Ash Zealots is cake, and Centaur Healers are the best roadblock in standard at the moment. Game 2 I side in what is probably my favorite combo of the deck: Garruk Relentless and Zealous Conscripts. Garruk lands, shoots a dude, flips, cast Conscripts, steal their guy, sac it to Garruk and search out a beater (like another Conscripts). He tries to get some last ditch damage in Archwing Dragon, but by that point I've got Thragtusks and Restoration Angel blinking, so it's pretty pointless. 4-2
Round 7: Jund Midrange, again
This guy accidentally flips a Vraska as he's shuffling, so that helped a little. Game 1 I ramp like crazy, hit Armada Wurm, Seance, Disciple, Thragtusk...there's really not a lot he can do against that. Game 2 he blows up a lot of my dudes, plays Vraska, who dies to wolf tokens. Plays the second, which hits my Seance and makes me sad. I eventually kill her off again, Alchemy into another Seance, and start dropping dudes as fast as I can. he goes into topdeck mode and can't do anything. This guy also seriously misplayed at LEAST twice, by apparently not reading Seance closely enough: on at least two occasions he hit my Thragtusk token and my Armada Wurm token with Dreadbores, apparently not realizing that the tokens would go away at EOT anyway. Getting those spells out of his hand undoubtedly cost him the game. I was going to correct him after the match and let him know, but I spaced it. Oh well. Hopefully he learns for next time. 5-2
Round 8: Grixis Control
Game 1 he gets out Olivia, starts pinging my Thragtusks and swinging in for 5 or so damage a turn, until he gets up to about 7 lands and just steals it. I wipe the board, cast Seance, drop Armada Wurm and ride it to the win. Game 2 he takes a 1 land hand with Cremate and some other good stuff, but fails to get to four land before I have a full board. He dissipates a Seance, and eventually stabilizes pretty well and kills all my stuff until I have no cards in hand except Alchemy. I EOT Alchemy, grabbing Seance, and then topdeck Slaughter Games with enough mana to cast both. I Slaughter Games naming Dissipate (which doesn't hit, because he was only running 1 and already used it), but see he has no other counters in hand. Seance lands, I get back Armada Wurms, and start beating. He eventually hits 8 mana, drops Griselbrand as a last chance at 5 life; I untap, cast Sever from the graveyard, and win.
Overall record of 6-2, which got me into 16th place and 24 packs. Not too bad for a 5 color ramp deck going into a relatively fresh meta. I knew Jund was going to be prevalent, but I didn't know it was going to be THAT prevalent. If I'd known that, I would have changed the main a bit to be able to hit things like Rakdos Keyrune (possibly going with some instant speed removal, or maybe just Sundering Growth).
Overall thoughts on my list: Alchemy was a night-before-states change after seeing a teammate do well with it, and it's SPECTACULAR. It digs for Seance, it dumps dudes in the yard to work with Seance, it searches out that last land you need, and it flashes back to do it a few turns later. Awesome card. if I were going to cut colors from this list, I'd run Alchemy as as 3x easily.
Disciple is, oddly enough, the worst card in the deck. I see why it's good, and it DID win me games due to 5 life gain and 5 cards..but I just hate playing it. =/ The 4 drop spot in my list is already full of stuff, and Disciple sucks on an empty board. I may cut it down to 1, if not completely. Disciple is best when you have Restoration Angels, as I would almost always swing for 3 in the air, drop Disciple, draw 3 and go on to win. But I almost never wanted to hit my bigger tokens like Wurms, because they're good as they are - I don't need 5 cards most of the time when my 5/5 trampler can kill you in two turns.
Verdict saved my tail plenty of times, and replaying our threats is obviously not as big a deal to us. My teammates run Vorapede, both as a Disciple sac target and a way to still have a dude on the board post-wrath; and while I agree with that, I just didn't have the two Vorapedes (I actually have one, but didn't want to run it as a 1x). Running Vorapede also seems to turn the deck into pure aggro, and you just race/outgun your opponent into submission. My list plays more control like - I'll often hold an Armada Wurm in my hand until I know I can drop it and let it do it's work. A lot of my life total sheets from States just have "20, 10, 0" for my opponent's life. Seems like a good way to win...
Also, I feel I have to comment on Mana Bloom. I don't think people realize how awesome that card is. It's another 2 drop ramp spell, and in my list (with so many 4 drops) that was absolutely critical. I see other lists running the Lantern, and while I think Lantern is a good card, I didn't like it in this list at all. Also, there's a hidden benefit to Bloom: people just let it sit there. It's so quiet and unassuming, no big deal, it's only one mana at a time, right? But it hands down lets me win games, because it's whatever mana I need to be right then (unlike Farseek), and it's not as "oh man, now he has EVERY COLOR from EVERY LAND" like the Lantern is. I dunno, for some reason the Lantern is a huge target, while Bloom got destroyed once the whole tournament, and it was when my opponent was mana screwed on two land and felt he had to do SOMETHING, so he Decay'd the Bloom to keep me off six mana. If you've yet to try Bloom in your lists, I suggest you try it. I think it's best with Liliana or something like Amass the Components; something where you can use it early, then when it returns to your hand in the later turns, you can just pitch it as a useless card. But even without being able to do that, Mana Bloom was spectacular. There were lots of games were I lay a Bloom for 1 on turn 1, ramp to an EOT angel on turn 3, then replay bloom for 2 on turn 4 to hit the turn 5 Armada Wurm. Yes, technically I lose my turn 2 and turn 4 plays, but I've also hit an Armada Wurm (or Severed a dude I need to kill!), and still hit Armada Wurm a turn early, which is often too much for the midrange decks to deal with because they can't sever, Mortar, or Dreadbore both creatures. Seriously helped.
Interestingly enough, this list pretty much parallels the original 5cc - "Toast" - from Lorwyn block. Armada Wurm is Broodmate Dragon, Thragtusk is a better but more expensive Kitchen Finks, Supreme Verdict is Day of Judgement (or you could run Hallowed Burial - I mean, Terminus - if you wanted to), etc. It may not look like it, but my list IS a control list; I frequently won games by simply controlling the board state, either by dropping Centaur Healers to speed bump aggro, Severing tokens and Olivia Voldarens, flashing in Restoration Angel to surprise block (hey look, it's Plumveil!), and then dropping an Armada Wurm or Thragtusk to finish the job, often while Seance let me get double use out of all my dudes. I feel that with tighter play and better mulligans, I should have gone 7-1. Next time I'll do better. If I were going to turn this into a more "5cc" and less "Seance" build, I think I'd cut the Disciples and the Slimes, which would give me room for something like 2x Garruk Relentless, a Rakdo's Return, and the 3rd Forbidden Alchemy, or possible another removal spell.
Comments, critiques and questions are welcome, I'd love to know what you guys think.
So a few weeks ago, before this thread was created, my team and I started to work on a green-based Seance build. Our initial list was almost a land destruction deck, with 4x Acidic Slime and 4x Bramblecrush mainboard, with creatures like Armada Wurm and Restoration Angel to provide the beats. We kept making improvements, deciding we could easily go 5 colors, and it evolved into this list, which got me to 16th place (out of 176) at Colorado States:
The amount of synergy in this list is pretty high. Card draw and card selection wins you games, its as simple as that; with Thragtusk and Disciple and Restoration Angel my life really never dipped below 14 or so for too long, and Disciple would routinely draw me 3-5 cards, multiple times in a game. Hard to lose with that much card advantage.
Farseek and Mana Bloom make going 5 colors fairly easy; I would almost never have any problems casting spells in my hand, though occasionally making sure I had the mana to cast blue and/or black spells in my hand, while still trying to ramp up to Armada Wurm made things difficult. Pulled it off fairly well, though. Tournament report in the spoilers:
Round 1: The Mirror
Of course, out of 176-odd people, I get paired with a teammate running a near identical list in the first round. First game he gets to four land but he's only on green and white, I ramp into an Acidic Slime to hit his tempo, then land Thragtusk and that's basically the game. Game 2 was unfortunately more of the same, with him keeping a hand with no Farseek and me ramping into stupid stuff. Felt bad for beating a teammate so early. 1-0
Round 2: Jund Midrange
Turns out that Jund runs Golgari Charm main. =/ Turns out that Golgari Charm hits enchantments. =/ Game 1 he gets in with a Rakdos keyrune for the game, as I have no instant speed removal and he was just killing everything I played. They have a ton of removal, and while I can win without Seance, its a little tougher. I get game 2, but game 3 I kept a subpar hand and he got there. 1-1.
Round 3: Jund Midrange, again
This time I'm prepared for what I'll see, and I play accordingly. Huntmasters die as soon as they hit the field, Olivia and Nighthawks eat O-Rings, and (after board) Thragtusks go the way of the dodo when I Slaughter Games them. Thragtusk is a pain in the ass to deal with, and I much prefer I'm the only one casting them. Disciple keeps me in the game after I get hit with a Rakdos' Return. 2-1
Round 4: Rakdos Aggro
This was a red-bases build, with Nobles and Ash Zealots and a ton of burn, probably splashing black for Aristocrat. I say probably, because in game 1 he kept a 1 land hand and didn't draw another by turn 5, when I cast Acidic Slime, hit his mountain and he concedes. Game 2 he gets flooded, I drop a ton of Centaur Healers to stall out and make him waste his burn, and eventually he starts topdecking land. Tensest moment of this game: I go to 5 after attacks, untap, draw into Thragtusk. I have to drop my fifth land (an Overgrown Tomb) into play untapped in order to cast it. He has 2 mana open and 2 cards in hand. I drop to 3, expect to die, he just shakes his head and I drop Thragtusk. Next turn I topdeck Restoration Angel, blink Thragtusk, and that's the game. 3-1
Round 5: Bant Ramp
I'm a little pissed at this guy because he plays at another card shop local to me, and their team is known to spy on our team. Sure enough, he drops some lands, Farseeks, ramps into Thragtusks and Angel of Serenity and that's basically it. I find out that he didn't like running 5 color, so he cut it to Bant colors, runs Traft, and runs Achemists' Refuge, which allows him to instant-speed Verdict me during combat. =/ Seems good. Games 2 and 3 he boards in Traft which I wasn't expecting, and basically just Angels me out. I dug 16 cards deep with Forbidden Alchemy, and can't find a Seance OR a Sever. =/ Sad panda. 3-2
Round 6: Mono Red Aggro
This guy was playing a higher mana cost version, with Ash Zealots and Nobles on the low end, and Zealous Conscripts and Thundermaws at the high end. I don't remember too much about this game, other than Supreme Verdict eats his board, Sever hitting multiple Ash Zealots is cake, and Centaur Healers are the best roadblock in standard at the moment. Game 2 I side in what is probably my favorite combo of the deck: Garruk Relentless and Zealous Conscripts. Garruk lands, shoots a dude, flips, cast Conscripts, steal their guy, sac it to Garruk and search out a beater (like another Conscripts). He tries to get some last ditch damage in Archwing Dragon, but by that point I've got Thragtusks and Restoration Angel blinking, so it's pretty pointless. 4-2
Round 7: Jund Midrange, again
This guy accidentally flips a Vraska as he's shuffling, so that helped a little. Game 1 I ramp like crazy, hit Armada Wurm, Seance, Disciple, Thragtusk...there's really not a lot he can do against that. Game 2 he blows up a lot of my dudes, plays Vraska, who dies to wolf tokens. Plays the second, which hits my Seance and makes me sad. I eventually kill her off again, Alchemy into another Seance, and start dropping dudes as fast as I can. he goes into topdeck mode and can't do anything. This guy also seriously misplayed at LEAST twice, by apparently not reading Seance closely enough: on at least two occasions he hit my Thragtusk token and my Armada Wurm token with Dreadbores, apparently not realizing that the tokens would go away at EOT anyway. Getting those spells out of his hand undoubtedly cost him the game. I was going to correct him after the match and let him know, but I spaced it. Oh well. Hopefully he learns for next time. 5-2
Round 8: Grixis Control
Game 1 he gets out Olivia, starts pinging my Thragtusks and swinging in for 5 or so damage a turn, until he gets up to about 7 lands and just steals it. I wipe the board, cast Seance, drop Armada Wurm and ride it to the win. Game 2 he takes a 1 land hand with Cremate and some other good stuff, but fails to get to four land before I have a full board. He dissipates a Seance, and eventually stabilizes pretty well and kills all my stuff until I have no cards in hand except Alchemy. I EOT Alchemy, grabbing Seance, and then topdeck Slaughter Games with enough mana to cast both. I Slaughter Games naming Dissipate (which doesn't hit, because he was only running 1 and already used it), but see he has no other counters in hand. Seance lands, I get back Armada Wurms, and start beating. He eventually hits 8 mana, drops Griselbrand as a last chance at 5 life; I untap, cast Sever from the graveyard, and win.
Overall record of 6-2, which got me into 16th place and 24 packs. Not too bad for a 5 color ramp deck going into a relatively fresh meta. I knew Jund was going to be prevalent, but I didn't know it was going to be THAT prevalent. If I'd known that, I would have changed the main a bit to be able to hit things like Rakdos Keyrune (possibly going with some instant speed removal, or maybe just Sundering Growth).
Overall thoughts on my list: Alchemy was a night-before-states change after seeing a teammate do well with it, and it's SPECTACULAR. It digs for Seance, it dumps dudes in the yard to work with Seance, it searches out that last land you need, and it flashes back to do it a few turns later. Awesome card. if I were going to cut colors from this last, I'd run Alchemy as as 3x easily.
Disciple is, oddly enough, the worst card in the deck. I see why it's good, and it DID win me games due to 5 life gain and 5 cards..but I just hate playing it. =/ The 4 drop spot in my list is already full of stuff, and Disciple sucks on an empty board. I may cut it down to 1, if not completely. Disciple is best when you have Restoration Angels, as I would almost always swing for 3 in the air, drop Disciple, draw 3 and go on to win. But I almost never wanted to hit my bigger tokens like Wurms, because they're good as they are - I don't need 5 cards most of the time when my 5/5 trampler can kill you in two turns.
Verdict saved my tail plenty of times, and replaying our threats is obviously not as big a deal to us. My teammates run Vorapede, both as a Disciple sac target and a way to still have a dude on the board post-wrath; and while I agree with that, I just didn't have the two Vorapedes (I actually have one, but didn't want to run it as a 1x). Running Vorapede also seems to turn the deck into pure aggro, and you just race/outgun your opponent into submission. My list plays more control like - I'll often hold an Armada Wurm in my hand until I know I can drop it and let it do it's work. A lot of my life total sheets from States just have "20, 10, 0" for my opponent's life. Seems like a good way to win...
Also, I feel I have to comment on Mana Bloom. I don't think people realize how awesome that card is. It's another 2 drop ramp spell, and in my list (with so many 4 drops) that was absolutely critical. I see other lists running the Lantern, and while I think Lantern is a good card, I didn't like it in this list at all. Also, there's a hidden benefit to Bloom: people just let it sit there. It's so quiet and unassuming, no big deal, it's only one mana at a time, right? But it hands down lets me win games, because it's whatever mana I need to be right then (unlike Farseek), and it's not as "oh man, now he has EVERY COLOR from EVERY LAND" like the Lantern is. I dunno, for some reason the Lantern is a huge target, while Bloom got destroyed once the whole tournament, and it was when my opponent was mana screwed on two land and felt he had to do SOMETHING, so he Decay'd the Bloom to keep me off six mana. If you've yet to try Bloom in your lists, I suggest you try it. I think it's best with Liliana or something like Amass the Components; something where you can use it early, then when it returns to your hand in the later turns, you can just pitch it as a useless card. But even without being able to do that, Mana Bloom was spectacular. There were lots of games were I lay a Bloom for 1 on turn 1, ramp to an EOT angel on turn 3, then replay bloom for 2 on turn 4 to hit the turn 5 Armada Wurm. Yes, technically I lose my turn 2 and turn 4 plays, but I've also hit an Armada Wurm (or Severed a dude I need to kill!), and still hit Armada Wurm a turn early, which is often too much for the midrange decks to deal with because they can't sever, Mortar, or Dreadbore both creatures. Seriously helped.
Anyway, there's my list and my thoughts on it. I'll undoubtedly make some changes, most likely cutting an entire color, but I'll make sure to keep everyone updated on how the list goes. It's interesting how many different ways there are to work with Seance - for example, I hadn't even thought of stuff like soulbond, which is a novel approach to it. Seems like it could be fun.
I find the absence of Curse of Death's Hold very puzzling. With runes and farseeks, You are able to drop it t4, which is huge against all Zombie builds, since they loose most of their game in Trolls, G-Crawlers and Aristocrat being unable to survive. In the predicted meta I would be scared to leave my house without at least 3 MD Curses in any builds that can support it.
Probably u got it covered in the previous discussion, but what exactly is the reasoning behind your removal suite? I can see why the deck needs the Tributes, but why Tragic Slips?
I agree, as long as you can survive to turn 4/5 to drop it. Zombies is going to be very, very quick. I already miss Gideon.
Looks good on paper, but you have to keep in mind a few things for the upcoming format. My thoughts on some of your choices:
1) Nighthawk is an auto-include 4x, so I'm glad to see it here. It's one of the few answers to Sigarda, besides running Sigarda herself.
2) Borderland Ranger - It has better synergy with Disciple of Bolas than something like Gatekeeper Vine, but I feel like keeping on curve is better than running the Ranger. Then again, it looks like a majority of your instants are 2CC, so maybe you're just planning on going with no turn 2 play and killing whatever they drop that turn? Probably a good idea against decks like Zombies, where the turn they tap out to play Lotleth Troll is the only opportunity you'll have to permanently get rid of it.
3) Liliana of the Veil: Be prepared to realize she's horrible in the new meta. I haven't tested at all, but from reading all the forums, any deck short of Jund/Zombies, and junk tokens, is going to be running Loxodon Smiter, and if that happens, you are going to be a very, very sad control player. Liliana might actually work better as a board card, once you're sure they're not running Smiter.
4) I'm sure you've already considered it, but what about a tiny white splash? It gains you, primarily, Selesnya Charm, which I think will be a HUGE player in RTR standard; it offers a permanent answer to Lotleth Troll (and an early answer at that), Falkenrath Aristocrat, Olivia, Armada Wurm, Smiter, anything that's Rancored....None of the white mana necessary to cast the Charm will help your Mutilate, but I feel like you gain so much value of it that it's worth running, for example, a singleton Plains and/or Selesnya Gate.
Just my thoughts. I'm not sure if walkers are going to be the way to go for the first month or so of Standard...everyone will be hopped up on super aggressive creatures, Detention Spheres, flyers and things with trample (via Rancor), and Dreadbore....running walkers seems like a really dangerous idea right now.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
The first thing the naysayers commented was, "does Lorescale Coatl see Legacy play?" as if that answered the question right then and there. But there are a lot of differences that honestly make me think of Goyf with this guy.
1) the casting cost being 2U means it fits into lots of decks that could play it. BUG, RUG, Delver, whatever. It's easily splashed, much like goyf can just be thrown into virtually any deck running green.
2) it rewards you for playing cards that, as a legacy blue player, you are already running. You don't have to add anything to make Skulker better, because you're already running Brainstorm and probably other draw as well (Gitaxian Probe, Street Wraith, etc). In addition it counts your normal draws.
3) It replaces itself when it dies (short of Swords/Path). That's a big deal, because it means if you play it on turn 3 with no draw spells to immediately pump it, that's the only time your opponent can kill it and you gain absolutely zero value. If you play it later with the potential to draw in response to removal, you will at least get 1+ tokens out of the deal. And delver/Pyromancer builds have shown that tokens can smash face in legacy. Especially islandwalking tokens.
The easy casting cost, the value when it dies, and the "Brainstorm, draw for turn, swing for 5?" just screams playable to me. This is not Lorescale Coatl, it's much better. I honestly really want to try him out in a UR Pyromancer build.
Spot removal and taking extra turns, so far, is all I've got. I WANT to abuse her by putting in things like Apocalypse and Jokulhaups, but doing so kills your ability to re-cast her which is obviously where her strength lies.. =/ Additionally, I want to cast things like Monomania or Wit's End or Sorin's Vengeance, but those target single players, while Jeleva works best in a multiplayer game, exiling many player's spells.
Lastly, I want to run things that help her deal damage or at least move my own game forward, but if you don't run a critical mass of spells you end up blanking on her ETB ability; so far I average one spell on her first casting, 2-3 on her second, and usually by her third it's about game over; but I feel like I'm not really doing much to the field itself. It totally depends on what my opponent has.
Anyone have any ideas on how to tighten it down a bit?
Some of these are really good. i started pulling cards from binders last night and came up with a few interesting ones:
I had to use Gatherer to remember some of their names, but these are what I'm currently thinking of abusing the hell out of
There aren't a lot of critters I want to abuse with Jeleva, but the ones I do are mostly Nucklavee and Galvanoth; I want to be able to re-cast, or cast for free, my big spells, ideally leaving my mana free to cast/recast Jeleva as often as possible. I also want to be able to use my opponent's spells against him; that way I not only get my own spells to abuse, but my opponent's can help me dip into other color and spells I can't run in my own list. To that effect, Blatant Thievery, Bribery, Mind's Desire, Spelltwine and Knowledge Exploitation all seem like entertaining cards to use.
The only thing I'm worried about is a real win condition. do I just mess with my opponent so much that I get enough damage through with whatever critters I can get out? Or is there a stupid combo I'm forgetting about that will let me win the game without dealing 21 general damage...
This is how I play. I enjoy playing with otherwise lack-luster commanders because hey, they're in my binder, and otherwise they'll just sit there gathering dust for the next decade. So I play a mono black with Shaku, the Endbringer as my general, and its fun. It's not my 1v1 competitive deck, but it's one I enjoy playing and it gives variance to my playgroup, so I like it.
I myself have 5-6 decks at any given time, so I try to have a variety of different styles. I can play fun, interactive and unusual decks, I can play 1v1 competitive lists (where the prize is often a dual land or something similar, yeah, I'm there to make you cry and take home the trophy), I can play big 5-6 player multiplayer Planechase events...whatever. I like to be able to switch it up.
In terms of what cards or strategies piss me off....non-interactive strategies, I guess? Or "mass slow down" cards like Nether Void, Smokestack, mass land destruction. In 1v1 I understand that those strategies are fair, and they're not nearly as infuriating; in a big multiplayer game, where a well timed Armageddon or Boom//Bust can slow the next 10 turns to a complete crawl? You're an *******. Infinite combos don't get me too much, because to me it still takes a fair amount of work to assemble any infinite combo, and if you get me before I can interrupt you or kill you flat out, then you probably deserve to win, especially seeing as how your infinite combo is probably 3-5 cards(!).
So yeah, in general, I'd have to say stax/mass counterspells are most likely to make me walk away. A buddy of mine has a mono blue deck that's basically Morphing/Opposition/Stax/Counters, and I refuse to play that deck unless we're in a tournament. It's beyond infuriating.
The early game rush is mitigated by cards like Centaur Healer; if aggro (especially aggro that can kill you by turn 4) is prevalent in your meta, then you need to run more Healer to compensate for that. My previous versions were running Restoration Angel as well, which would often just prove too much for aggro to handle - the turn 3 Healer into a turn 4 Restoration Angel, blink, double block was just too much for them. Now that super quick aggro is on the fall, that's not so much a problem anymore.
Generally speaking, your early plays are drawing/filtering as much as possible, hit a turn 3 Healer, and a turn 4 reanimation or Seance to start reanimating multiple dudes. Yes, it's a slower start, but depending on your meta that doesn't matter. And it's not like you're not doing anything - you're filtering cards, and making sure your mid/late game is better. If you run Lingering Souls, you play those out and chumps to buy you time. In my opinion, turns 4/5 are really when this deck start to hit hard. Everything else is just surviving.
On the Hellkite - I love him in certain builds, but it really depends on your build. I don't believe he fits in a Frites list, but I DO think he belongs in a Seance list, if that makes sense. If you ran Seance in a R/W or R/W/G list, then I'd say yes, obviously you run Hellkite. As it is, we're more Junk colors with a splash for red, and that's not the best environment for Hellkite. Just my opinion, though; test it out. If he smashes face, more power to you.
Yes, Seance and Trostani don't work together. That's one card, and Trostani's value is elsewhere. If anything Seance is BETTER than unburial rites, because it's every turn. You can't attack with the token, but you can certainly get value out of it's ETB effects; and if it's something like a Thragtusk, it leaves a body behind. Seance-ing a Thragtusk on my opp's turn, blocking their dude, gaining 5 and getting a 3/3 to attack next turn has absolutely won me games. Seance-ing back a Restoration Angel, blinking a Thragtusk, has won me games. Seance-ing back a Disciple of Bolas, saccing Thragtusk, has won me games.
Think outside the box.
My latest version of Seance (because I actually run a Seance list, and have only recently changed it out to make it a little more "Frites-like"), gets solid card selection and draw with the usual Looting, Grisly Salvage, etc; which then leads to late game advantage when Seance hits the field and the majority of my dudes start pulling double duty. Reanimate when you can, obviously, but you're also casting creatures as well: Seancing an Angel of Serenity on their turn to exile three dudes, swing with your team, then bounce their dudes to their hand? Seems Good. Or Seance the angel during their turn, bounce two threats and one dude for you, then recast it during your turn? I don't know about you guys, but I love getting double or even triple value out of my cards.
Trostani in play makes Seance broken - I have won numerous games by populating Thragtusk tokens to a ridiculous degree, gaining 8 life every time Trostani populates..that's, in a word, awesome. Trostani is certainly not required to make Seance work, but it's certainly beyond broken when she does.
For reference, I've been top 4ing FNM with this list every week, and I got 16th at States with a 5 color version. I think adding in Unburial Rites will make it even stronger, but hey, if you don't want to run Seance, by all means. Yes, it gets O-Ringed and D-sphere'd, but it's just ADDED value, it's not NECESSARY value. The idea is to create an overwhelming mass of dudes from hand and dudes from graveyard. Seance, Unburial Rites and your hand give you an overwhelming advantage.
But by all means, don't play it if you think it's too weak.....
This is the latest direction I've taken mine as well. Frites can just explode with card selection, and dumping dudes into the yard makes Seance that much better.
My team's original build ran three Trostani; when we took the deck to 4 and 5 colors, we cut her because of the intense mana requirements. Two of the team have since cut back to 3 colors again and both run Trostani - she's awesome at what she does, but I still dislike her; she's a naturally defensive card, and lifegain does not win you the game. I saw life totals in the 800s (850-some, if I recall), but the game goes super long and you may not even win, just draw. To me, the deck needs something more aggressive. Vorapede has been one answer that works extremely well - that and Disciple together are a tough duo.
Loxodon Smiter is also a possibility, except he does nothing for the overall plan of the deck. When he dies, his only benefit to Seance is as a blocker. And while Seance is just a part of the deck and not the lynchpin, I feel that running dudes that don't synergize with it is a mistake. Yes, Smiter is good against a Rakdos Return, and Liliana. But that's about it, and Rakdos' Return is really only brought in game 2 with Jund. Additionally, we have no turn 1 ramp, so Smiter is just a turn 3 beater.
Shaman is a possibility, though I haven't tested it yet. Being able to things can make a stalemate into a slow grind, which does occasionally happen with this version of the deck.
Related, here's my updated list. There doesn't seem to be a lot of interest in the archetype anymore, but I've had nothing but success with what I'm playing. All the excitement is in Jund midrange and UWx control, but my team's list beats both of those pretty easily. For this week, we're seeing what happens if we go back down to 4 colors and "aggro" the list a little bit more:
3 Temple Garden
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Blood Crypt
2 Woodland Cemetary
3 Rootbound Crag
2 Sunpetal Grove
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Restoration Angel
2 Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage
3 Centaur Healer
2 Armada Wurm
1 Angel of Serenity
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Selesnya Keyrune
2 Seance
3 Mana Bloom
4 Farseek
2 Sever the Bloodline
2 Faithless Looting
2 Barter In Blood
2 Abrupt Decay
Changes are mostly just cutting blue. I was going to try Think Twice instead of the Forbidden Alchemy I've been running, but cutting blue entirely makes the mana much smoother. I haven't tried this list yet, it's all theoretical still.
Faithless Looting: Obviously Frites runs it to great effect, and if I was running Alchemy without a problem then the discard from Looting shouldn't be that big of a deal. Also, because it's cheaper, I can fit it more on-curve with what I'm playing: there were lots of times I would wait to Alchemy until later in the game, simply because I was too busy playing out threats to actually want to cast Alchemy. Looting should let me do that faster, giving me better options at the expense of ditching cards out of hand. That will be a problem if/when my hand gets low, which is why I'm also including Garruk, PH.
Garruk, Primal Hunter: I don't really need to explain why Garruk is awesome. He's one of the best walkers against UWx control, and he makes up for the loss of card draw that occurs by cutting Disciple of Bolas entirely. He doesn't shoot opposing creatures, though; and he's another heavy drop, so I felt like I needed to compensate with...
Abrupt Decay: I was running Oblivion Ring to deal with problem permanents, but you know what ends up happening in like 90% of my games? I'm O-Ringing an O-Ring (or Detention Sphere) to get my dudes back. And that's annoying as hell. If I'm going to do that, I might as well run Decay, which permanently deals with problems, is uncounterable, instant speed, etc etc. Decay does not hit Walkers the way O-Ring does though; I feel like that will be okay though, because the overall list is taking on a more aggro feel to it. Also, I have Hellkite.
Thundermaw Hellkite: I'm taking a page out of Jund's book for this one. Hellkite is awesome, and is arguably my second favorite creature in standard right now. Being able to tap down angel tokens and swing into a Jace that UWx thought was protected, that's a good play. The double-red may be an issue, but we'll test it out and see how it goes. I think having a heavier-hitting, aggro version will do well.
Barter in Blood: I will probably miss Supreme Verdict. Uncounterable and hits everything in play, no questions asked. Barter In Blood seems like the best alternative, and if they're forced to block a lot of my guys they should hopefully be low on creatures anyway. The downside is, of course, sometimes two guys isn't enough, and it probably won't save my ass if I'm starting to lose. But it's easier on the mana base and it still answers Geist of St. Traft, as well as other heavy hitters that something like Rolling Tremblor wouldn't.
Selesyna Keyrune: Another nod to Jund. May end up being taken out, because as a 1x how vital can it be (plus, I think I'm at 61 cards)? I feel like having one more ramp spell, that survives a Verdict, Barter in Blood, and sorcery speed removal, is a really good thing. It's not a 3/1 first striker, but the G/W mana is more important for the deck and 3/3 still packs a hit. Being able to keep pressure on the UWx player, even after a Verdict or a Terminus, can really win you the game.
Opinions are always welcome. I feel like I'm the only one still really reading this thread and trying new ideas.
3 Sunpetal Grove
3 Hallowed Fountain
3 Temple Garden
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Steam Vents
1 Vault of the Archangel
3 Hinterland Harbor
1 Woodland Cemetery
4 Thragtusk
1 Disciple of Bolas
2 Armada Wurm
4 Restoration Angel
2 Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage
3 Centaur Healer
1 Angel of Serenity
2 Mana Bloom
4 Farseek
3 Supreme Verdict
2 Sever the Bloodline
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Forbidden Alchemy
2 Garruk Relentless // Garruk, the Veil-Cursed
3 Zealous Conscripts
3 Sundering Growth
2 Slaughter Games
2 Negate
2 Tragic Slip
2 Slayer of the Wicked
Changes from my list posted above:
I decided to try out the Guildmage, which has had a net positive result. As other posters have said, being able to populate for 4 mana is just stupid; any game I start populating Thragtusks, I win. The card advantage is just too much at that point. Additionally, in the later turns (with 8+ mana), it just gets downright stupid. Guildmage also helps the early game, by giving me multiple things to do on turn 2. I can ramp if I have it, but I can also keep hands with a turn 2 Guildmage to help stall out the aggro rush. I have yet to use his 4WG ability (putting a centaur into play), but the ability to do so shouldn't be overlooked...
Angel of Serenity needs to be main, in every list. She is so good. She's absolutely game ending, even if removed. I'm probably going to up her to for this week's tournament, because I love seeing her. One has been effective, though, because of Garruk being maindeck.
Garruk was a card I kept siding in for almost all my games - he's good against control, he's good against Jund, and he's good against the WG aggro lists; and in all of those except control, it's spectacular to shoot one of their dudes, flip Garruk, then sacrifice a thragtusk to search out a Zealous Conscripts, play it, attack....I've won numerous games off the Garruk + Conscripts synergy (swinging for 15 damage in one turn seems good).
I've cut Disciple to a 1x solely because I don't know what else to cut. Disciple is a good card, but I never, ever liked seeing it in my opening hand, and it really only seemed necessary if I was falling behind. But honestly, as long as Seance lands - and sticks - I never really fall behind.
Slayer of the Wicked out of the board is the stone cold nuts. I didn't think it would be that impressive, but really...it kills everything Jund plays short of Thragtusk and Rakdos Keyrune. It kills everything Rakdos Aggro/Zombies plays; it kills Olivia, Vampire Nighthawk, Huntmaster, etc. etc. And it blocks like a champ. I didn't think it'd be that big of a deal, but so far I've been loving it out of the board.
Tragic Slip is a new addition I'll be trying this week. I really, REALLY miss having instant-speed removal, and most of my losses come from not being able to use spare mana at the end of my opponent's turn; or, for instance, killing their Thragtusk, then still having to deal with the Beast token left behind. If I could attack with my dudes, kill their Thragtusk, then Slip the beast token, I think that would have stolen some games for me.
Seriously though, give it a try. I've been having great success with it so far.
Where the hell did THAT come up...that's literally the first I've heard of that. I mean, seems awesome, but...how weird. I imagine that the Peddler being a 1/1 made it difficult to "live the dream" as often as one would hope...not to mention the weird mana base, but hey...if it works, it works, I guess. I'd just be interested in seeing a decklist that would run something like that.
I completely disagree. I played Slaughter Games at States (I played a 5c Seance build my team and I designed), which not only hits Jund hard naming Thragtusk and/or Huntmaster, but also hits control where it hurts as well. I don't know why people are naming Entreat the Angels with Slaughter Games when you should be running Sever the Bloodline, anyway. You name Terminus and/or Supreme Verdict, which makes your dudes significantly harder to deal with and puts them on a much shorter clock.
Slaughter Games worked well for me every time I boarded it in.
2 Disciple of Bolas
4 Thragtusk
2 Acidic Slime
2 Armada Wurm
3 Centaur Healer
2 Sever the Bloodline
2 Seance
4 Farseek
3 Mana Bloom
3 Supreme Verdict
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Forbidden Alchemy
3 Sunpetal Grove
3 Hallowed Fountain
3 Temple Garden
2 Hinterland Harbor
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
2 Steam Vents
2 Woodland Cemetary
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
3 Sundering Growth
3 Slaughter Games
3 Negate
1 Angel of Serenity
2 Zealous Conscripts
2 Garruk
The amount of synergy in this list is pretty high. Card draw and card selection wins you games, its as simple as that; with Thragtusk and Disciple and Restoration Angel my life really never dipped below 14 or so for too long, and Disciple would routinely draw me 3-5 cards, multiple times in a game. Hard to lose with that much card advantage.
Farseek and Mana Bloom make going 5 colors fairly easy; I would almost never have any problems casting spells in my hand, though occasionally making sure I had the mana to cast blue and/or black spells in my hand, while still trying to ramp up to Armada Wurm made things difficult. Pulled it off fairly well, though.
Round 1: The Mirror
Of course, out of 176-odd people, I get paired with a teammate running a near identical list in the first round. First game he gets to four land but he's only on green and white, I ramp into an Acidic Slime to hit his tempo, then land Thragtusk and that's basically the game. Game 2 was unfortunately more of the same, with him keeping a hand with no Farseek and me ramping into stupid stuff. Felt bad for beating a teammate so early. 1-0
Round 2: Jund Midrange
Turns out that Jund runs Golgari Charm main. =/ Turns out that Golgari Charm hits enchantments. =/ Game 1 he gets in with a Rakdos keyrune for the game, as I have no instant speed removal and he was just killing everything I played. They have a ton of removal, and while I can win without Seance, its a little tougher. I get game 2, but game 3 I kept a subpar hand and he got there. 1-1.
Round 3: Jund Midrange, again
This time I'm prepared for what I'll see, and I play accordingly. Huntmasters die as soon as they hit the field, Olivia and Nighthawks eat O-Rings, and (after board) Thragtusks go the way of the dodo when I Slaughter Games them. Thragtusk is a pain in the ass to deal with, and I much prefer I'm the only one casting them.
Round 4: Rakdos Aggro
This was a red-bases build, with Nobles and Ash Zealots and a ton of burn, probably splashing black for Aristocrat. I say probably, because in game 1 he kept a 1 land hand and didn't draw another by turn 5, when I cast Acidic Slime, hit his mountain and he concedes. Game 2 he gets flooded, I drop a ton of Centaur Healers to stall out and make him waste his burn, and eventually he starts topdecking land. Tensest moment of this game: I go to 5 after attacks, untap, draw into Thragtusk. I have to drop my fifth land (an Overgrown Tomb) into play untapped in order to cast it. He has 2 mana open and 2 cards in hand. I drop to 3, expect to die, he just shakes his head and I drop Thragtusk. Next turn I topdeck Restoration Angel, blink Thragtusk, and that's the game. 3-1
Round 5: Bant Ramp
I'm a little pissed at this guy because he plays at another card shop local to me, and their team is known to spy on our team. Sure enough, he drops some lands, Farseeks, ramps into Thragtusks and Angel of Serenity and that's basically it. I find out that he didn't like running 5 color, so he cut it to Bant colors, runs Traft, and runs Achemists' Refuge, which allows him to instant-speed Verdict me during combat. =/ Seems good. Games 2 and 3 he boards in Traft which I wasn't expecting, and basically just Angels me out. I dug 16 cards deep with Forbidden Alchemy, and can't find a Seance OR a Sever. =/ Sad panda. 3-2
Round 6: Mono Red Aggro
This guy was playing a higher mana cost version, with Ash Zealots and Nobles on the low end, and Zealous Conscripts and Thundermaws at the high end. I don't remember too much about this game, other than Supreme Verdict eats his board, Sever hitting multiple Ash Zealots is cake, and Centaur Healers are the best roadblock in standard at the moment. Game 2 I side in what is probably my favorite combo of the deck: Garruk Relentless and Zealous Conscripts. Garruk lands, shoots a dude, flips, cast Conscripts, steal their guy, sac it to Garruk and search out a beater (like another Conscripts). He tries to get some last ditch damage in Archwing Dragon, but by that point I've got Thragtusks and Restoration Angel blinking, so it's pretty pointless. 4-2
Round 7: Jund Midrange, again
This guy accidentally flips a Vraska as he's shuffling, so that helped a little. Game 1 I ramp like crazy, hit Armada Wurm, Seance, Disciple, Thragtusk...there's really not a lot he can do against that. Game 2 he blows up a lot of my dudes, plays Vraska, who dies to wolf tokens. Plays the second, which hits my Seance and makes me sad. I eventually kill her off again, Alchemy into another Seance, and start dropping dudes as fast as I can. he goes into topdeck mode and can't do anything. This guy also seriously misplayed at LEAST twice, by apparently not reading Seance closely enough: on at least two occasions he hit my Thragtusk token and my Armada Wurm token with Dreadbores, apparently not realizing that the tokens would go away at EOT anyway. Getting those spells out of his hand undoubtedly cost him the game. I was going to correct him after the match and let him know, but I spaced it. Oh well. Hopefully he learns for next time.
Round 8: Grixis Control
Game 1 he gets out Olivia, starts pinging my Thragtusks and swinging in for 5 or so damage a turn, until he gets up to about 7 lands and just steals it. I wipe the board, cast Seance, drop Armada Wurm and ride it to the win. Game 2 he takes a 1 land hand with Cremate and some other good stuff, but fails to get to four land before I have a full board. He dissipates a Seance, and eventually stabilizes pretty well and kills all my stuff until I have no cards in hand except Alchemy. I EOT Alchemy, grabbing Seance, and then topdeck Slaughter Games with enough mana to cast both. I Slaughter Games naming Dissipate (which doesn't hit, because he was only running 1 and already used it), but see he has no other counters in hand. Seance lands, I get back Armada Wurms, and start beating. He eventually hits 8 mana, drops Griselbrand as a last chance at 5 life; I untap, cast Sever from the graveyard, and win.
Overall record of 6-2, which got me into 16th place and 24 packs.
Overall thoughts on my list: Alchemy was a night-before-states change after seeing a teammate do well with it, and it's SPECTACULAR. It digs for Seance, it dumps dudes in the yard to work with Seance, it searches out that last land you need, and it flashes back to do it a few turns later. Awesome card. if I were going to cut colors from this list, I'd run Alchemy as as 3x easily.
Disciple is, oddly enough, the worst card in the deck. I see why it's good, and it DID win me games due to 5 life gain and 5 cards..but I just hate playing it. =/ The 4 drop spot in my list is already full of stuff, and Disciple sucks on an empty board. I may cut it down to 1, if not completely. Disciple is best when you have Restoration Angels, as I would almost always swing for 3 in the air, drop Disciple, draw 3 and go on to win. But I almost never wanted to hit my bigger tokens like Wurms, because they're good as they are - I don't need 5 cards most of the time when my 5/5 trampler can kill you in two turns.
Verdict saved my tail plenty of times, and replaying our threats is obviously not as big a deal to us. My teammates run Vorapede, both as a Disciple sac target and a way to still have a dude on the board post-wrath; and while I agree with that, I just didn't have the two Vorapedes (I actually have one, but didn't want to run it as a 1x). Running Vorapede also seems to turn the deck into pure aggro, and you just race/outgun your opponent into submission. My list plays more control like - I'll often hold an Armada Wurm in my hand until I know I can drop it and let it do it's work. A lot of my life total sheets from States just have "20, 10, 0" for my opponent's life.
Also, I feel I have to comment on Mana Bloom. I don't think people realize how awesome that card is. It's another 2 drop ramp spell, and in my list (with so many 4 drops) that was absolutely critical. I see other lists running the Lantern, and while I think Lantern is a good card, I didn't like it in this list at all. Also, there's a hidden benefit to Bloom: people just let it sit there. It's so quiet and unassuming, no big deal, it's only one mana at a time, right? But it hands down lets me win games, because it's whatever mana I need to be right then (unlike Farseek), and it's not as "oh man, now he has EVERY COLOR from EVERY LAND" like the Lantern is. I dunno, for some reason the Lantern is a huge target, while Bloom got destroyed once the whole tournament, and it was when my opponent was mana screwed on two land and felt he had to do SOMETHING, so he Decay'd the Bloom to keep me off six mana. If you've yet to try Bloom in your lists, I suggest you try it. I think it's best with Liliana or something like Amass the Components; something where you can use it early, then when it returns to your hand in the later turns, you can just pitch it as a useless card. But even without being able to do that, Mana Bloom was spectacular. There were lots of games were I lay a Bloom for 1 on turn 1, ramp to an EOT angel on turn 3, then replay bloom for 2 on turn 4 to hit the turn 5 Armada Wurm. Yes, technically I lose my turn 2 and turn 4 plays, but I've also hit an Armada Wurm (or Severed a dude I need to kill!), and still hit Armada Wurm a turn early, which is often too much for the midrange decks to deal with because they can't sever, Mortar, or Dreadbore both creatures. Seriously helped.
Interestingly enough, this list pretty much parallels the original 5cc - "Toast" - from Lorwyn block. Armada Wurm is Broodmate Dragon, Thragtusk is a better but more expensive Kitchen Finks, Supreme Verdict is Day of Judgement (or you could run Hallowed Burial - I mean, Terminus - if you wanted to), etc. It may not look like it, but my list IS a control list; I frequently won games by simply controlling the board state, either by dropping Centaur Healers to speed bump aggro, Severing tokens and Olivia Voldarens, flashing in Restoration Angel to surprise block (hey look, it's Plumveil!), and then dropping an Armada Wurm or Thragtusk to finish the job, often while Seance let me get double use out of all my dudes. I feel that with tighter play and better mulligans, I should have gone 7-1. Next time I'll do better.
Comments, critiques and questions are welcome, I'd love to know what you guys think.
2 Disciple of Bolas
4 Thragtusk
2 Acidic Slime
2 Armada Wurm
3 Centaur Healer
2 Sever the Bloodline
2 Seance
4 Farseek
3 Mana Bloom
3 Supreme Verdict
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Forbidden Alchemy
3 Sunpetal Grove
3 Hallowed Fountain
3 Temple Garden
2 Hinterland Harbor
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
2 Steam Vents
2 Woodland Cemetary
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
3 Sundering Growth
3 Slaughter Games
3 Negate
1 Angel of Serenity
2 Zealous Conscripts
2 Garruk
The amount of synergy in this list is pretty high. Card draw and card selection wins you games, its as simple as that; with Thragtusk and Disciple and Restoration Angel my life really never dipped below 14 or so for too long, and Disciple would routinely draw me 3-5 cards, multiple times in a game. Hard to lose with that much card advantage.
Farseek and Mana Bloom make going 5 colors fairly easy; I would almost never have any problems casting spells in my hand, though occasionally making sure I had the mana to cast blue and/or black spells in my hand, while still trying to ramp up to Armada Wurm made things difficult. Pulled it off fairly well, though.
Round 1: The Mirror
Of course, out of 176-odd people, I get paired with a teammate running a near identical list in the first round. First game he gets to four land but he's only on green and white, I ramp into an Acidic Slime to hit his tempo, then land Thragtusk and that's basically the game. Game 2 was unfortunately more of the same, with him keeping a hand with no Farseek and me ramping into stupid stuff. Felt bad for beating a teammate so early. 1-0
Round 2: Jund Midrange
Turns out that Jund runs Golgari Charm main. =/ Turns out that Golgari Charm hits enchantments. =/ Game 1 he gets in with a Rakdos keyrune for the game, as I have no instant speed removal and he was just killing everything I played. They have a ton of removal, and while I can win without Seance, its a little tougher. I get game 2, but game 3 I kept a subpar hand and he got there. 1-1.
Round 3: Jund Midrange, again
This time I'm prepared for what I'll see, and I play accordingly. Huntmasters die as soon as they hit the field, Olivia and Nighthawks eat O-Rings, and (after board) Thragtusks go the way of the dodo when I Slaughter Games them. Thragtusk is a pain in the ass to deal with, and I much prefer I'm the only one casting them.
Round 4: Rakdos Aggro
This was a red-bases build, with Nobles and Ash Zealots and a ton of burn, probably splashing black for Aristocrat. I say probably, because in game 1 he kept a 1 land hand and didn't draw another by turn 5, when I cast Acidic Slime, hit his mountain and he concedes. Game 2 he gets flooded, I drop a ton of Centaur Healers to stall out and make him waste his burn, and eventually he starts topdecking land. Tensest moment of this game: I go to 5 after attacks, untap, draw into Thragtusk. I have to drop my fifth land (an Overgrown Tomb) into play untapped in order to cast it. He has 2 mana open and 2 cards in hand. I drop to 3, expect to die, he just shakes his head and I drop Thragtusk. Next turn I topdeck Restoration Angel, blink Thragtusk, and that's the game. 3-1
Round 5: Bant Ramp
I'm a little pissed at this guy because he plays at another card shop local to me, and their team is known to spy on our team. Sure enough, he drops some lands, Farseeks, ramps into Thragtusks and Angel of Serenity and that's basically it. I find out that he didn't like running 5 color, so he cut it to Bant colors, runs Traft, and runs Achemists' Refuge, which allows him to instant-speed Verdict me during combat. =/ Seems good. Games 2 and 3 he boards in Traft which I wasn't expecting, and basically just Angels me out. I dug 16 cards deep with Forbidden Alchemy, and can't find a Seance OR a Sever. =/ Sad panda. 3-2
Round 6: Mono Red Aggro
This guy was playing a higher mana cost version, with Ash Zealots and Nobles on the low end, and Zealous Conscripts and Thundermaws at the high end. I don't remember too much about this game, other than Supreme Verdict eats his board, Sever hitting multiple Ash Zealots is cake, and Centaur Healers are the best roadblock in standard at the moment. Game 2 I side in what is probably my favorite combo of the deck: Garruk Relentless and Zealous Conscripts. Garruk lands, shoots a dude, flips, cast Conscripts, steal their guy, sac it to Garruk and search out a beater (like another Conscripts). He tries to get some last ditch damage in Archwing Dragon, but by that point I've got Thragtusks and Restoration Angel blinking, so it's pretty pointless. 4-2
Round 7: Jund Midrange, again
This guy accidentally flips a Vraska as he's shuffling, so that helped a little. Game 1 I ramp like crazy, hit Armada Wurm, Seance, Disciple, Thragtusk...there's really not a lot he can do against that. Game 2 he blows up a lot of my dudes, plays Vraska, who dies to wolf tokens. Plays the second, which hits my Seance and makes me sad. I eventually kill her off again, Alchemy into another Seance, and start dropping dudes as fast as I can. he goes into topdeck mode and can't do anything. This guy also seriously misplayed at LEAST twice, by apparently not reading Seance closely enough: on at least two occasions he hit my Thragtusk token and my Armada Wurm token with Dreadbores, apparently not realizing that the tokens would go away at EOT anyway. Getting those spells out of his hand undoubtedly cost him the game. I was going to correct him after the match and let him know, but I spaced it. Oh well. Hopefully he learns for next time.
Round 8: Grixis Control
Game 1 he gets out Olivia, starts pinging my Thragtusks and swinging in for 5 or so damage a turn, until he gets up to about 7 lands and just steals it. I wipe the board, cast Seance, drop Armada Wurm and ride it to the win. Game 2 he takes a 1 land hand with Cremate and some other good stuff, but fails to get to four land before I have a full board. He dissipates a Seance, and eventually stabilizes pretty well and kills all my stuff until I have no cards in hand except Alchemy. I EOT Alchemy, grabbing Seance, and then topdeck Slaughter Games with enough mana to cast both. I Slaughter Games naming Dissipate (which doesn't hit, because he was only running 1 and already used it), but see he has no other counters in hand. Seance lands, I get back Armada Wurms, and start beating. He eventually hits 8 mana, drops Griselbrand as a last chance at 5 life; I untap, cast Sever from the graveyard, and win.
Overall record of 6-2, which got me into 16th place and 24 packs.
Overall thoughts on my list: Alchemy was a night-before-states change after seeing a teammate do well with it, and it's SPECTACULAR. It digs for Seance, it dumps dudes in the yard to work with Seance, it searches out that last land you need, and it flashes back to do it a few turns later. Awesome card. if I were going to cut colors from this last, I'd run Alchemy as as 3x easily.
Disciple is, oddly enough, the worst card in the deck. I see why it's good, and it DID win me games due to 5 life gain and 5 cards..but I just hate playing it. =/ The 4 drop spot in my list is already full of stuff, and Disciple sucks on an empty board. I may cut it down to 1, if not completely. Disciple is best when you have Restoration Angels, as I would almost always swing for 3 in the air, drop Disciple, draw 3 and go on to win. But I almost never wanted to hit my bigger tokens like Wurms, because they're good as they are - I don't need 5 cards most of the time when my 5/5 trampler can kill you in two turns.
Verdict saved my tail plenty of times, and replaying our threats is obviously not as big a deal to us. My teammates run Vorapede, both as a Disciple sac target and a way to still have a dude on the board post-wrath; and while I agree with that, I just didn't have the two Vorapedes (I actually have one, but didn't want to run it as a 1x). Running Vorapede also seems to turn the deck into pure aggro, and you just race/outgun your opponent into submission. My list plays more control like - I'll often hold an Armada Wurm in my hand until I know I can drop it and let it do it's work. A lot of my life total sheets from States just have "20, 10, 0" for my opponent's life.
Also, I feel I have to comment on Mana Bloom. I don't think people realize how awesome that card is. It's another 2 drop ramp spell, and in my list (with so many 4 drops) that was absolutely critical. I see other lists running the Lantern, and while I think Lantern is a good card, I didn't like it in this list at all. Also, there's a hidden benefit to Bloom: people just let it sit there. It's so quiet and unassuming, no big deal, it's only one mana at a time, right? But it hands down lets me win games, because it's whatever mana I need to be right then (unlike Farseek), and it's not as "oh man, now he has EVERY COLOR from EVERY LAND" like the Lantern is. I dunno, for some reason the Lantern is a huge target, while Bloom got destroyed once the whole tournament, and it was when my opponent was mana screwed on two land and felt he had to do SOMETHING, so he Decay'd the Bloom to keep me off six mana. If you've yet to try Bloom in your lists, I suggest you try it. I think it's best with Liliana or something like Amass the Components; something where you can use it early, then when it returns to your hand in the later turns, you can just pitch it as a useless card. But even without being able to do that, Mana Bloom was spectacular. There were lots of games were I lay a Bloom for 1 on turn 1, ramp to an EOT angel on turn 3, then replay bloom for 2 on turn 4 to hit the turn 5 Armada Wurm. Yes, technically I lose my turn 2 and turn 4 plays, but I've also hit an Armada Wurm (or Severed a dude I need to kill!), and still hit Armada Wurm a turn early, which is often too much for the midrange decks to deal with because they can't sever, Mortar, or Dreadbore both creatures. Seriously helped.
Anyway, there's my list and my thoughts on it. I'll undoubtedly make some changes, most likely cutting an entire color, but I'll make sure to keep everyone updated on how the list goes. It's interesting how many different ways there are to work with Seance - for example, I hadn't even thought of stuff like soulbond, which is a novel approach to it. Seems like it could be fun.
I agree, as long as you can survive to turn 4/5 to drop it. Zombies is going to be very, very quick. I already miss Gideon.
1) Nighthawk is an auto-include 4x, so I'm glad to see it here. It's one of the few answers to Sigarda, besides running Sigarda herself.
2) Borderland Ranger - It has better synergy with Disciple of Bolas than something like Gatekeeper Vine, but I feel like keeping on curve is better than running the Ranger. Then again, it looks like a majority of your instants are 2CC, so maybe you're just planning on going with no turn 2 play and killing whatever they drop that turn? Probably a good idea against decks like Zombies, where the turn they tap out to play Lotleth Troll is the only opportunity you'll have to permanently get rid of it.
3) Liliana of the Veil: Be prepared to realize she's horrible in the new meta. I haven't tested at all, but from reading all the forums, any deck short of Jund/Zombies, and junk tokens, is going to be running Loxodon Smiter, and if that happens, you are going to be a very, very sad control player. Liliana might actually work better as a board card, once you're sure they're not running Smiter.
4) I'm sure you've already considered it, but what about a tiny white splash? It gains you, primarily, Selesnya Charm, which I think will be a HUGE player in RTR standard; it offers a permanent answer to Lotleth Troll (and an early answer at that), Falkenrath Aristocrat, Olivia, Armada Wurm, Smiter, anything that's Rancored....None of the white mana necessary to cast the Charm will help your Mutilate, but I feel like you gain so much value of it that it's worth running, for example, a singleton Plains and/or Selesnya Gate.
Just my thoughts. I'm not sure if walkers are going to be the way to go for the first month or so of Standard...everyone will be hopped up on super aggressive creatures, Detention Spheres, flyers and things with trample (via Rancor), and Dreadbore....running walkers seems like a really dangerous idea right now.