Haven't seen any discussion about this kind of deck so far, so I thought I would bring it up. Seems like it has been performing decently over the past month or so.
Here's a decklist for people that don't want to check the link
I'd say his strongest upside is that he isn't reliant on the GY after he comes down. If the enemy drops RiP the turn after you play a goyf or a scooze, you're looking at a 0/1 and a 2/2 respectively. The simians are still 4/4.
Hooting Mandrills Is this the decent Goyf replacement people have been looking for? Here's what I see as pro's and con's for it so far.
Pros: It's got Trample
It's a 4/4 no matter the graveyard
Not useless in the face of Rest In Peace
It can be played for G
Can be used to eat Scavenging Ooze/Tarmogoyf fodder
Cons:
It's never more than a 4/4
Can't be played on T2 unless you're doing something like Thought Scouring yourself
Also the mana cost is variable.
Only one toughness above lightning bolt.
Hurts your graveyard when you're playing a deck that relies on it.
What about dropping Thought Scour and replacing them with Voice? I've always felt like it was the weakest cantrip. The more red card draw the better right?
Worth at least testing over Desperate Ravings in Modern Storm - the cost reduction from Electromancer (compared to Wild Guess) is definitely relevant, but I suspect flashback still gives Ravings the edge.
For decks that run Thought Scour this might be able to replace it since they both bin cards.
Yeah, I always thought Wild Guess was pretty nice. The fact that electromancer can reduce it to just costing R could be the tipping point to get more people to want to try it. This new card basically has all the upsides of Faithless Looting in that you can bin a card you don't want/want in the gy for ascension but now you don't lose any cards in hand.
If the only card in your deck that uses the gy is Snapcaster, I don't think adding in treasure cruise is particularly a nonbo. For every Snapcaster you cast during the game, you only remove one card out of the graveyard. That would probably make the cruise cost 1-2 more in a world where you see 2 snaps a game but still have a full graveyard. This is based on the assumption the mage is still out on the field and hasn't been put in the gy.
So if a U/R/X deck were to play Mindswipe I'm thinking it would need to be a max 2 of. This card adds nicely to the burn clock that these decks already have, but it is pretty bad in a counter war so it would probably be something you'd need to side out. It could probably be pretty decent against most midrange decks provided they don't sneak out a 2 drop before you can even force spike it.
I wouldn't play it. The problem with it and most other 3+ mana soft counterspells is that you can't ever get 2 drops with it (assuming parity of lands) on the play and you can't ever get 3 drops with it on the draw. That means that most of the time it just doesn't counter enough useful stuff unless if your opponent misses more land drops than you.
You're right, I think it might best to think of it as an extra addition to a counter spell suite rather than replacing any of the already existing remand/leaks you have in the deck. I kind of see it like a more aggro Sphinx's Revelation.
So if a U/R/X deck were to play Mindswipe I'm thinking it would need to be a max 2 of. This card adds nicely to the burn clock that these decks already have, but it is pretty bad in a counter war so it would probably be something you'd need to side out. It could probably be pretty decent against most midrange decks provided they don't sneak out a 2 drop before you can even force spike it.
So I wasn't sure if I needed to start a new topic to ask this question but here it goes
So it will probably be a bit harder for Blood Moon to lock out enemies in games 2-3, do you guys think we'll need more nonbasic land hate to go with these new fetches?
My problem with this card is that the decks that most likely have enough creatures out on the field for this sort of effect to be useful would gladly take 2/2 creatures over a board wipe if their enemy is spending 5 mana.
Jitte would see play, but I don't think it would be in Aggro, it makes for the perfect control finisher. Jitte is way to powerful to come off the list anyways, its a planeswalker that doesn't die when you hit 0 loyalty and can use it's abilities at instant speed.
It is a powerful control finisher, however if you can't run it with Stoneforge, then it has a much higher chance of being a dead draw in a deck that runs 4-8 creatures than in a deck running 25+ creatures, I'm not sure just having Jitte unbanned would change the number of creatures those decks run.
What would it take for another aggro deck to enter into the format and be viable at Tier 2 or greater? Is it possible with the current power level of the cards?
It's basically going to require new cards to be printed imo. Right now Aggro has to deal with fighting its way through b/g/x and u/r/x both of which have very strong answers to early aggression in the form of removal like bolt, or abrupt decay, and others. Currently aggro decks have two options, they can try to go under other decks in an attempt to kill them before their opponent can establish board control or they can accept playing longer games and add in more resilient later game threats/ways to refill their hand and try to play the inevitability game.
For the conventional deck usually you have to pick one of these and just accept the loss of the other. Affinity breaks the mold a little bit by having some explosive starts but having lots of redundancy to help it grind some games. It still has a weakness in folding to certain sb cards, but even with that is able to be pretty successful.
Most traditional aggro decks are currently lacking in their ability to stay in the game past turn 4-5 since if they haven't killed you by that point they either have to hope they topdeck burn (if they even have it), pray their enemy hasn't landed a creature that can profitably block, or has more removal.
If it were up to me, I think reprinting cards like Goblin Ringleader could go a long way for some traditional aggro decks
Basically, nothing that is currently on the banned list helps aggro besides maybe unbanning jitte. However, without Stoneforge I'm not even certain how that would play out.
Here's a decklist for people that don't want to check the link
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
7 Island
1 Mountain
2 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
3 Cryptic Command
2 Electrolyze
2 Izzet Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Remand
2 Spell Snare
4 Through the Breach
4 Serum Visions
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Blood Moon
3 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2 Anger of the Gods
1 By Force
1 Pyroclasm
1 Roast
1 Vandalblast
Not sure about the Death's Shadow MU but it seems like it could be pretty good against most of the other linear decks.
Pros: It's got Trample
It's a 4/4 no matter the graveyard
Not useless in the face of Rest In Peace
It can be played for G
Can be used to eat Scavenging Ooze/Tarmogoyf fodder
Cons:
It's never more than a 4/4
Can't be played on T2 unless you're doing something like Thought Scouring yourself
Also the mana cost is variable.
Only one toughness above lightning bolt.
Hurts your graveyard when you're playing a deck that relies on it.
What do you all think?
For decks that run Thought Scour this might be able to replace it since they both bin cards.
Could this be the second delve CA spell?
You're right, I think it might best to think of it as an extra addition to a counter spell suite rather than replacing any of the already existing remand/leaks you have in the deck. I kind of see it like a more aggro Sphinx's Revelation.
So it will probably be a bit harder for Blood Moon to lock out enemies in games 2-3, do you guys think we'll need more nonbasic land hate to go with these new fetches?
It is a powerful control finisher, however if you can't run it with Stoneforge, then it has a much higher chance of being a dead draw in a deck that runs 4-8 creatures than in a deck running 25+ creatures, I'm not sure just having Jitte unbanned would change the number of creatures those decks run.
It's basically going to require new cards to be printed imo. Right now Aggro has to deal with fighting its way through b/g/x and u/r/x both of which have very strong answers to early aggression in the form of removal like bolt, or abrupt decay, and others. Currently aggro decks have two options, they can try to go under other decks in an attempt to kill them before their opponent can establish board control or they can accept playing longer games and add in more resilient later game threats/ways to refill their hand and try to play the inevitability game.
For the conventional deck usually you have to pick one of these and just accept the loss of the other. Affinity breaks the mold a little bit by having some explosive starts but having lots of redundancy to help it grind some games. It still has a weakness in folding to certain sb cards, but even with that is able to be pretty successful.
Most traditional aggro decks are currently lacking in their ability to stay in the game past turn 4-5 since if they haven't killed you by that point they either have to hope they topdeck burn (if they even have it), pray their enemy hasn't landed a creature that can profitably block, or has more removal.
If it were up to me, I think reprinting cards like Goblin Ringleader could go a long way for some traditional aggro decks
Basically, nothing that is currently on the banned list helps aggro besides maybe unbanning jitte. However, without Stoneforge I'm not even certain how that would play out.