MTG Salvation

I've played Jarad for a bit now and just recently added some of the imo, more boring or inefficient pieces that are required for the comboes (triskelion, phyrexian delver, tooth and nail). It really does bring it up a level, which I wasn't surprised about.

What I was surprised about is the amount of cards you can still manage to stick into this deck that makes it your own. For instance, I have a sac theme with sheoldred, skull clamp, grave pact, recurring Skelton and a few others.

What I wanted to put on people's minds if they have the space is primordial hydra. This card is a ticking time bomb in this deck and is medium good at all points in the game (though I do have cabal coffers and vorinclex to help late game). It's a hidden mvp. The guy that comes off the bench and puts in work every game. It basically wins you the game in a turn or two for a semi low mana and very low card commitment, or it draws removal for again, a very low card commitment that does t ruin any of the other combos.

The bad part is that it has to be hard cast and can't be recorded effectively.

Quote from VidarThor »

You are ******* reading on bones man. _How cool is that?

I guess that is pretty cool. Any idea why it helps me to draw cards?

As much as I like the Titans (and play them more), I'd have to save the Praetors. They feel a bit more "epic" to me a d have their own personalities. That coupled with the fact that they are actually playable solidifies it for me.

Yes I agree, especially when it comes to deck construction and politics at a multiplayer table. This is ignoring decks that break edh's initial intent and can win constantly in a few turns.

I made a standard deck once and was bored the next day. Not enough cards to try in the deck, and not enough cards to choose from in the pool.

I'd argue there is no other game on earth that hits the creative and strategic combo along with the excitement that EDH does.

Read the bones. Compare to Sign in blood and Ancient Craving.

For EDH, what do you prefer? I prefer read the bones myself as I can filter out junk that I don't need before drawing, especially in a format that has to dig through 99 cards. Card quantity != car quality.

However, this card has never caught on like I thought it would and am wondering why. Sign in bloods ability to target other players is mostly irrelevant due to multiple players and high health pools, and ancient craving seems a bit mediocre at it's cmc.

Ah yes, not sure why I assumed why ranger of eos grabbed stoneforge mystic. In my version it's more token/enchantment focused with bitterblossom so sidisi, diabolic intent and aura of silence fit pretty well (I always like another target for Sun titan). Fair points!

One thing I keep in for fun is hatred. It's just too easy to finish someone off when it's you alone with someone, especially when youve had incremental lifegain all game. That, or you can buff someone else unwillingly to finish someone else off

The only thing I strongly disagree with is the exclusion of Knight of the white orchid, especially in a deck without coffers. Imo this effect and cmc is too good, especially when you are behind. Remember, it grabs scrubland and the shock land. Land ramp literally does not get cheaper in W/B. This is a different role than weathered wayfarer and expedition map land tutor imo as well. The only time it's bad is when you go first and you haven't missed a land.

Great guide. I'm using it to make sure I don't miss anything crucial for my own version.

Here are some things I don't see mentioned in your main post that might open up new ideas:

Identity crisis - I hate that I can put this card in more decks. Insane hand and grave hate.

Diabolic intent - Low cost tutor offset even more due to the sac theme.

Sidisi, Undead Vizier - An easier to hard-cast rune-scarred demon offset by the sac theme.

Unburial rites - Slow, but the flashback is nice.

Necrotic sliver - Slow but recurrable with Sun titan.

Knight of the white orchid - Rare useful and reccurable ramp outside of green.

Hatred - A way to end the game outside of a combo. Perfect for a deck with decent life gain.

Aura of silence - More of a meta pick but reccurable with Sun titan.

Debtors' knell - If your deck can afford the high cmc it's a very flavorful w/b card.

Ranger of eos package - Perfect for this deck as all three of the targets are good. Stoneforge mystic for skullclamp, Weathered wayfarer and serra ascendant are the other usuals, among other possibilities like Viscera Seer.

Great deck idea.

I've been struggling to find an identity for my W/B cards that aren't in any of my other EDH decks for a while now. The deck turned in mostly W/B wipes and removal with some reanimation and lifegain. I was trying to decide between Karlov and Ayli to command it today, but now your deck has me wondering if I should add green. I was especially trying to ignore green because I use it too much, but it wouldn't be used in the typical way for this kind of deck. I think the green really adds a nice punch to the typical stax deck.

If you had to take green out, what would you have to stick back in to fill the holes?

Card questions -
Why isn't bitterblossom in the deck?
Why not Garruk Wildspeaker? He can either make a token, or ramp you even if you just have one or two lands after a land wipe.
What about Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger? Ramps you and taps them.
Does Gaddock Teeg work here?
Privileged position lock with sterling grove just win-more?

I like that you state the deck's purpose is to "weaponize the life total" in response to not putting felidar sovereign in. That is great design sense. I also like your description of the other commanders in W/B. Karlov really is the only one begging to have life gain happen as the main priority. Both reason are why I built this deck too.

My main criticism would be that every "fog" card you had could just simply be replaced by the immense selection of boards wipes in W/B. I think you would upgrade your power in a heartbeat. I suppose that's why I also use some reanimation in my version. The trick being not to make the deck a reanimator/sacrifice/token deck instead of a control deck.

As for Ayli as someone mentioned, I see her as a baby/token version of a good Vish kal deck with the added benefit of exiling permanents instead of one shotting people. I think Ayli (along with felidar sovereign and beacon of immortality) would fit her into a burstier life gain deck to ensure her second abilitiy can be utilized. At worst, she is a great sac outlet for a token based deck with a very low cmc. The more I write this the more I want to make a W/B token deck utilizing bitterblossom etc, which the bonus of it not being a stax deck. Hmmm.



Any updates on the deck with Ayli at the helm? I imagine her shell would need to be a reanimation/token instead of a permanent wiping control shell. Or perhaps a stax shell while waiting for win cons of the felidar type?

Replying to this thread since it's the first hit on google.

My main addition is spirit loop. It gains you life, which also stacks with lifelink. It also puts itself back into your hand whenever it's destroyed. Wow, talk about value and at only 2cmc. Secondly, castigate. I feel this is a must for 1v1 and still a super unused and flavorful W/B card.

As for the rest of the thread, I feel people are too focused on turning Karlov into a pseudo voltron with a lot of cheap lifegain cards supporting this mission. The problem here besides his lack of protection or haste is that the rest of the deck sucks outside of infinite combos you may throw in after he surely is removed. I had a tuned voltron Kaalia deck long ago and I know how terrible it is as the table size and skill grows.

Instead, I started this deck with a W/B control shell. Wipes, wipes, more wipes and the insane targeted removal of W and W/B cards. After that you are safe to fill in the spots to experiment, with voltron additions (imo) being the weakest or riskiest outside of 1v1. What I learned and eventially did instead was to put a chunk of clutch creatures in that have to be answered (instead of your general being answered!) and move the deck's mission along in some way:
pestilence demon
sun titan
ashen rider
wurmcoil engine
baneslayer angel
divinity of pride.

The low and mid cmc areas of the deck are weak on solid creatures due to the removal shell and lack of threatening creatures without OTHER kinds of support in the deck (say, a token or sacrifice theme). To solve this I put in recursion. Remember, things are dying alot because of the W/B control (wipe) shell. Specifically, I put in either insanely high value recursion or recursion that targets the enemies gy (reanimate, animate dead, phyrexian reclamation). I could see rise of the dark realms in a certain meta, however I opted for storm herd instead. The trick here was not going so deep into recursion that it turned into a typical recursion deck and wasn't a control/lifegain deck anymore.

Finally, I plan on trying to implement an equipment package that lends itself to both life gain and recursion (think sword of light and shadow, Umezawa's Jitte, loxodon warhammer, basilisk collar), batterskull, stoneforge mystic. This will be the final and most complicated section to balance, but it may be super efficient and work well with the wipe, recursion and lifegain strategy.




All said and done, Karlov will be nothing but a finisher if the cards and board come together correctly, or if I need bait for removal. There will be no massive lifegain swings outside of pestilence demon with a spirit loop, or a pumped debt to the deathless. This means cards like well of lost dreams lose power. Karlov, like the past commanders I've used for this deck were nothing but a W/B color provider.

W/B legendaries have had an insane boost in the past two years. I feel that Karlov excels as a super removal engine instead of voltron.

Imo Marath is just too good compared to gahiji. She/he allows you to always have some way to get tokens, especially at that awkward 3 mana stage. Marath can also ping dorks down which has been pretty damn useful so far. Also, with that new 1 cmc green enchantment that adds a 1/1 counter she's even better. Of course, doubling season and parallel live with her is awesome. Being able to make sure you can always interact with those clutch cards is.... clutch.

Red adds a few things:
Like you mentioned, purphoros and vicious shadows adds some killing power.
Xenagos gives bonkers mana.
Tempt with vengeance is a surprisingly good token producer I've found because of it's flexibility with X, as well as haste.
Rith's charm is a great little card that gives 3 tokens for 3 mana which you don't find often, OR it blows up a problem land.
Of course, dragon broodmother is an insane token producer that always needs to be answered in a deck like this. I feel like I'm cheating when I drop her.
Siege-gang commander is a card that has grown on me. Four bodies with the ability to ping creatures or players has been a big upside to this deck.
You get some clutch removal like hull breach, chaos warp, and decimate if you so choose.


One thing I'm trying to work on right now is what spot removal and mass removal to run. Notice the lack of swords to plowshares and return to dust. R/G has a lot of artifact and enchantment removal, but it's hard to pass up return to dust's exile. StP is great and this deck can have issues removing larger creatures.

Finally have some time to post my Marath deck, heavily influenced from this Rhys deck. The parenthesis denot how many major roles the card serves in the deck. The more the better.

Low costing (less than 3 cmc) commanders that have a useful effect but aren't super threatening. Rhys and marath come to mind.

Cards that would make white and red better in the format.

I understand what you are all getting at. I prefer myself and others having access to their commander, and having to deal with the adversity they bring to the table. Now that get's the juices flowing.

Quote from Jedimindtricks »

No, you didn't address it. Your answer was: well, that happens in all of magic. So does tucking. So why should we treat one different than the other? By your own logic there, tucking should stay.

Ah yes, the point I'm making is that no other format is based one one major card that people have special access to throughout the game, which also strictly controls how the deck is built, as well as offering flavor and strategies to follow. I do not believe tucking makes sense here. As someone else stated, I would support the notion that tucking is a loophole in this format. Magic is full of them, and I think this particular one could be removed in my opinion.

Quote from Jedimindtricks »

I'm not seeing what you're trying to get at with this line of questioning. And you still have answered me regarding land d and why it should stay when it does the same if not worse to being able to cast your general.

I addressed this in post #54: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/572172-what-if-multiplayer-edh-adopted-the-french-rule?comment=54

Quote from Jedimindtricks »

I mean, the color restriction of EDH is part of the fun for me. The restriction forces me to build creatively. Just like the restriction of tuck being a possibility does the same. I build decks full well knowing tuck is a possibility so even decks I have built around generals(Rafiq, Norin, Karametra, sen triplets, skeleton ship, yeva) are built with some sort of contingency plan(okay, what do I do if I can't access me general). Constant access to your general stifles this creativity, and makes some generals much more degenerate. GftT my prosh? Cool. I got tokens and will get more when I just recast him in a turn. Tuck him and now I have to tutor him up, which can be easy enough in g/b but it also takes resource investment (time and mana), and magic is if anything a game of resource management. And as much as people say "Id just tutor/counter/dies to removal", anyone who's being honest has to admit there's plenty of times when you don't have that answer and/or your opponents have the answer for your answer.

I agree. I like the restriction and flavor it provides. I also build my decks with tuck in mind. I do not agree that access to your general stifles creativity however. For instance, not being able to tuck would suddenly make a card like pestilence see acceptable play when playing against a meta with prossh in it. That is creativity and flavor, without removing one of the main draws to commander in my opinion.

Quote from Jedimindtricks »

Maro often says restriction breeds creativity in Magic. It's why damage left the stack. It's why outlast isn't instant speed.

Nothing is black and white There is always a balance and tuning. Some things are easier to tune out than others, like tucking a commander in a format that is based on the commander, again, in my opinion.

Quote from Jedimindtricks »

These are all reasons why tucking is good for the format. Now tell me why it isn't using reasoning beyond "But I like my general and want to cast it whenever I want". Tell me why it would make the format better. Tell me why having to ban more cards is better for the format. Tell me how always having access to your commander no matter what makes the game more balanced, won't lead to more degenerate commanders, and breeds creativity.

Sure, I'll reiterate what I said above. Once you are restricted to not having access to tuck, you suddenly have to be more creative in how you deal with commanders, in a format that are meant to have the presence of commanders.