MTG Salvation

Quote from Demagogue

Simply because the cost of this specific prerelesase is the same as other past prereleases does not mean we are getting something for free,

When you compare the amount of products being offered by the Avacyn Restored Helvault prereleases and virtually all previous set prereleases, and note that the entry cost is EXACTLY THE SAME, yet the Helvault prereleases are giving you MORE PRODUCT THAN PREVIOUS PRERELEASES, no matter what you think of the quality of said product, the fact of the matter is that the additional product is free when compared with other, comparable events - that is, previous prereleases.

The fact that events and products cost money is not in question here, as you seem to be claiming.

Just because you were personally unhappy that the Helvault did not spew out $100 bills for you - despite the fact that both Wizards and B&M stores gave out absolutely no indications that the additional products would be worth something financially - does not mean that the additional product provided was indeed free compared to other prerelease events.

And it's your right to be angry that you feel you were "tricked" into spending money on a prerelease by the lure of something cool being given out in the Mystery Box ... but don't delude yourself or at least try not to delude others into this belief that the Helvault product - no matter what it ended up being - wasn't a no-additional-cost bonus compared to virtually every other prerelease put on for MtG.

Quote from Demagogue

No, that is not the case at all my good sir, it is not icing on the cake but part of the entry cost. I'm tired of this "it's free" mentality, it's not.

So wait ... Scenario 1: I am going to enter a prerelease, and pay $X.

I go to prerelease, enter for $X, leave with the standard prize payout for a standard prerelease sealed event, plus a nice prerelease foil card.

Scenario 2: I am going to enter a Helvault prerelease and pay the same $X as I would for a normal prerelease.

I go to prerelease, enter for $X, leave with the standard prize payout for a standard prerelease sealed event, plus a nice prerelease foil card, PLUS whatever added bonus WotC has thrown into the Helvault promotion.

Additional cost of Helvault promotional materials to me: $0

$0 does not equal free anymore?

Box 3 Left:
Jar of Eyeballs
Havengul Runebinder
Ghoultree / FOIL Curse of Echoes
Increasing Savagery
Havengul Lich
Helvault
Grim Backwoods
Curse of Misfortunes
Curse of Bloodletting / Mondronen Shaman
Call to the Kindred
Sudden Disappearance
Lost in the Woods

Box 3 Middle:
Seance
Archangel's Light
Predator Ooze
Increasing Savagery
Sudden Disappearance
Counterlash
Flayer of the Hatebound
Alpha Brawl
Fiend of the Shadows
Requiem Angel
Hellrider
Beguiler of Wills

Box 3 Right:
Archangel's Light
Fiend of the Shadows / Wolfbitten Captive
Ghoultree
Jar of Eyeballs
Seance
Thraban Doomsayer
Flayer of the Hatebound
Thalia, Guardian of Thraban
Increasing Savagery / FOIL Stromkirk Captain
Havengul Runebinder
Geralf's Mindcrusher
Deranged Outcast

Box 4 Left:
Increasing Ambition
Jar of Eyeballs
Jar of Eyeballs
Vault of the Archangel
Falkenrath Aristocrat
Deranged Outcast
Geralf's Mindcrusher
Thalia, Guardian of Thraban
Thraban Doomsayer
Dungeon Geists
Feed the Pack
Fiend of the Shadows

Box 4 Middle:
Sudden Disappearance
Havengul Runebinder / FOIL Mondronen Shaman
Increasing Ambition
Helvault
Geralf's Messenger
Thalia, Guardian of Thraban
Counterlash / Mondronen Shaman
Mikeus, the Unhallowed
Moonveil Dragon
Markov Blademaster
Call to the Kindred / FOIL Sudden Disappearance
Counterlash

Box 4 Right:
Curse of Echoes
Counterlash
Havengul Lich / FOIL Increasing Ambition
Ghoultree
Markov Blademaster
Vault of the Archangel
Jar of Eyeballs / Huntmaster of the Fells
Requiem Angel
Increasing Vengeance
Increasing Confusion
Dungeon Geists
Curse of Misfortunes


Out of the 4 boxes I hit 1 Sorin Emblem and 3 Sorin Vampire tokens

4 boxes, all Japanese language.

Box 1 Left:
Thalia, Guardian of Thraban
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Ghoultree
Helvault
Curse of Echoes / Wolfbitten Captive
Requiem Angel
Beguiler of Wills
Ghoultree
Jar of Eyeballs
Grafdigger's Cage / Ravenous Demon / FOIL Grafdigger's Cage
Hellrider
Curse of Bloodletting

Box 1 Middle:
Geralf's Messenger
Archangel's Life
Markov Blademaster
Geralf's Mindcrusher
Increasing Confusion
Thraban Doomsayer
Vorapede
Flayer of the Hatebound
Vault of the Archangel
Deranged Outcast
Curse of Bloodletting
Gravecrawler / Wolfbitten Captive

Box 1 Right:
Vault of the Archangel
Sudden Disappearance
Increasing Savagery
Feed the Pack
Fiend of the Shadows
Requiem Angel / Mondronen Shaman
Feed the Pack
Thalia, Guardian of Thraban
Lost in the Woods
Gravecrawler
Counterlash
Zombie Apocalypse

Box 2 Left:
Increasing Ambition
Increasing Savagery
Deranged Outcast / Elbrus, the Burning Blade
Increasing Devotion
Lost in the Woods
Increasing Vengeance
Thalia, Guardian of Thraban
Dungeon Geists
Requiem Angel / Huntmaster of the Fells
Alpha Brawl
Increasing Confusion / Elbrus, the Burning Blade

Box 2 Middle:
Geralf's Mindcrusher
Curse of Echoes
Curse of Echoes / Ravenous Demon
Predator Ooze
Fiend of the Shadows
Zombie Apocalypse / FOIL Zombie Apocalypse
Deranged Outcast
Increasing Vengeance
Counterlash
Call to the Kindred
Zombie Apocalypse / FOIL Strangleroot Geist
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad / Ravenous Demon

Box 2 Right:
Hellrider
Geralf's Messenger
Geralf's Messenger / Mondronen Shaman
Thraban Doomsayer
Increasing Savagery
Increasing Confusion
Flayer of the Hatebound
Mikeus, the Unhallowed
Markov Blademaster
Flayer of the Hatebound
Moonveil Dragon
Grafdigger's Cage

NOTE - In this box, 1 pack got misplaced with a Grafdigger's Cage in it. I am not sure what column it was in, top or bottom.

So ... has anybody tried Massacre Wurm at all here? It seems like it's in some part Elesh Norn 6 and 7 if the deck wants it ...

I can't believe nobody has brought up Harrowing Journey here ... A draw-3 that also doubles as a kill spell? There is a case to be made for it, I think, if you're going to try and force aggro-black. That being said, the vampire lord might be a better pick if you're planning to go that way. And if you're planning to build a controlling deck for it to slot into, then Soul Seizer is probably the pick, or perhaps Helvault.

However, I would not look down my nose at anybody who picked the Harrowing Journey first, especially since it allows you to try and completely cut black.

Me? I'd pick the Feed the Pack. Splashable and ridiculously bomby.

So this now sets up another situation for there to be a J:TMS-priced card coming from Dark Ascension. Interesting, I guess ...

Quote from Stardust

That's just not true. Considering how fast Modern is, you'll be dead sometime between the turn before and the turn after Visions finally resolves. Even in Standard (obviously a much slower format) this was not an auto-4-of, and that's in the time of Faeries!

I stated that it reads "If this resolves, you win the game." Every deck which could feasibly play this card suddenly would, and would alter their decks accordingly to give themselves the absolute best shot at resolving this spell. Yes, if you threw this card in RIGHT NOW to the exact same decklists people are slinging, then sure it would not work that well. The problem is that people will adapt their decks to force this card through. It is a format-warping card that I am glad is not available in the card-pool right now. People who say "Oh it's really not that bad" are deluding themselves.
If it resolves for you, you will likely win the game based on that fact alone. The game will drag out a few turns more, but the fact is that you just won the game due to a 1 mana spell.

If it resolves against you, you will likely lose the game based on that fact alone. The game will drag out a few turns more, but the fact is that you just lost the game to a 1 mana spell.

I absolutely do not want Ancestral Visions to be unbanned. It's an auto-4-of in every single deck that plays blue, and even some that wouldn't normally play blue, which does not lead to a diverse and interesting format. People want it unbanned because it is, more often than not, a 1-mana spell with "You Win the Game" printed in the text box. I mean that just the way I typed it - if this spell resolves, then more often than not the player who cast it will win the game. Just because the game lasts for a few more agonizing turns while the blue player grinds you out doesn't change the fact that it was essentially AV that read "You Win the Game." That is not a fun card. 1-mana "you win if this resolves" spells are not fun cards in most formats.

I hope they ban Nacatl, personally. That change might diversify the zoo decks enough to avoid other bannings ... Not sure on that, though; Punishing Fire might need to go too.

I applaud Wizards for trying to make a format that is not just completely dominated by updated standard lists from past seasons. Some of us don't WANT to play Faeries for the 47 millionth time. So when people say, "Oh, they need to unban x, y, and z" so that they can play an updated x or y standard deck, I think they're missing the point of the format - that is, to be a diverse and NEW format, not just more of the same with a slightly bigger card pool.

Quote from Zrel

Anyone else disappointed that it doesn't read "Discard two cards, then draw two cards". Makes it more random, but then it makes it really good when hellbent. Too good for red?

I, for one, am glad they didn't print it like that ... "R: Dredge 12 ... flashback 2R: Dredge 12" seems a liiiiittle too powerful to me.

People are jumping all over this now, but look ... he's a planeswalker, he draws cards, and most importantly (for some people) it's a blue card. People complain now, but will still be playing him when some U/x control deck top 8s some tournament with this guy in the list.

So it seems like I-Never-Smile is a fan of some sort of UB machine-style of deck with no Forgemasters, which I can get behind. Quite probably more permission-based than the majority of builds posted here. The question I have is what the win condition ends up being in that deck? Do you go for the proliferate kill? Do you ... I don't know ... Exsanguinate for the win? (lol) Mainly when i-n-s made a post about 'depends on which bomb artifacts you play' it made me curious as to just what bomb artifacts are making the cut here, since there are a couple of different routes you can go with a machine-style Tez deck.

Also, in such a deck is Blue Sun's Zenith worth it at all? I remember when I was playing Machine Red I was never sad to see a Comet Storm once I had 40 bazillion mana, but that was a different animal than New Stroke of Genius. It may just be that for curve purposes you keep your card draw simple in Preordain, Jace's Ingenuity (See Beyond?) and so-forth - known quantities ... But for those of you who are testing Machine Tez, is USZ an option?

If you're playing Sanity Grinding, you need to be playing 4 Shelldock Isle in my opinion ... They are just way too good. Plus, you need to be drawing extra cards, and Howling Mine accomplishes that along with little Jace. Getting extra cards means you are drawing the counterspells you need to stall and the Twincasts you need to win.

The list I've been testing to fairly good results is below. I've been trying various numbers of Hedron Crabs and Archive Traps, and wondering whether some amount of Mana Leaks should be in there, or potentially Into the Roil. ItR is no replacement for Boomerang and Evacuation, which this deck sorely misses since its standard days, but a combination of Spreading Seas and something else may be able to push this deck up to higher-tier play.

Is it just me, or does it seem weird that WotC would release a card that is a 2-card infinite turns combo in the new extended, right as that PTQ season starts. There has to be some sort of catch to that Thopter Factory card, right?

Barl's Cage is really fun and works very well for me ... but then again, I try to keep the power level of my EDH decks pretty low, as my play group doesn't have access to many great cards, and I don't have to play against many silly overly-high-powered decks