Planar Cleansing hits all nonland permanents. Your animated lands will be fine against it. Verdict is a little different, but you also have to utilize Thoughtseize in a way to protect Nissa in getting her in play and protecting the lands once they are in play. You only need to animate one or two lands at most to put pressure on control. If they Verdict, they didn't hit Nissa; if they Planar Cleanse, then they didn't hit your lands. It's a win-win unless they have two ways of answering your dudes, which happens. And then you keep hounding them. If they take care of Nissa, you jam Xenagos. If you're able to Slaughter Games for Sphinx's Revelation and have Downfalls and Garruk in some number to take care of Elspeth, you can keep putting up a fight. The deck loses its inevitability without Rev and you just have to keep pounding on the door.
Thanks for clarifying. I didn't think through my statement enough. I have been studying for an exam for my new career and haven't had much time to analyze the specific conditions in which having lands as creatures is good or bad. I would like to bump Nissa to a 2-3 of I think this is a solid number and not four. She just ends up sitting in our hand as long as another copy is on the field.
This is what I intend to play this week. I think Nissa is good vs all but Cleansing Control. Losing our PWs and creatures to a quicken/Cleansing is rough to begin with but losing all that in addition to a number of land can be devastating if we don't have a ample reserve of lands in play. I feel like 1 Nissa is ok, I wouldn't mind another one, but Xenagos on the other hand...he does god's work.
I agree we should be tuning our deck a bit towards facing the impending popularity of this deck after it's recent performances. This is why I kept garruk, and modified my removal as such to kill many walkers as is needed. Having more Rakdos's return helps in this respect as it can make them discard their hand and can be redirected to the PW to clear it from the board. Only problem here is we must strike the PW down as soon as possible( preferably before it's second activation) otherwise even if we kill it there is a chance it has already ran away with the game.
The deck seemed to have great matchups vs a lot of decks when I tried the Barry Smith list over the weekend. There is a lot of choices to make as well so this is as with all Midrange decks not a play as you go deck. This is a thinking man's deck and one that punishes bad play and rewards skill with such a deck.
I played Hoogland's list last night at FNM to a 3-1 finish. My only loss was the RW Burn deck. That deck gets me everytime I play against it. I think I'm 1-X versus that deck in constructed magic. I just can't seem to find a way to beat them. Sure I could devour flesh my own fattie but unfortunately I never seen one. I ended up having to use devour flesh on a Chandra's Phoenix. Anyways here is a list and a small breakdown of what I played against.
I felt in control the entire night despite the loss to RW burn, I just can't control EOT Burn spells with abysmal interaction between players in a given game vs burn. But I won't rant about the deck here....
Mono Blue was the best match all night. Game one he thought I was a slow BR Midrange deck. I just played BR lands and swamps til around turn 7. I was killing whatever he played. Finally when I drop a Temple of Malady on the table he sat up a bit and raised his eyebrow with a look on his face that practically said " what is this deck?" I took game 1 after I controlled the board and dropped a demon followed by dragon.
Game 2 was insane. My opponent was really caught off guard when I dropped a Specter after controlling his board keeping him off of animating Thassa. I took a hit from her but the following turn untapped, played land, and passed. He untaps and swings with Familiar,Specter, and Thassa. I play Golgari charm. He realizes there is no real point in sacrificing his familar so he just let's it resolve. I then play downfall on his specter and take no damage. I untap and swing a courser and specter at him on an empty field. Hit for 4 and reveal the top card to my specter. It's his own Specter! I play it and the entire he is saying "no,no,no" while we are both laughing. In the end I won with three Specters, a frostburn weird and a evolved 1/2 cloudfin raptor.
Everyone was saying they didn't understand the Nightveils last night. Then a lot of them seen the match I had with Mono Blue and they understood completely afterwards. The deck is very solid and I am taking it to play some side events at a SCG Premier IQ today. I hope to continue to see success with this deck. As I expect I should. The deck is extremely well thought out, solid construction, and a monstrous marriage of Jund Monsters and Mono Black. Two already solid archetypes in one makes this one powerful deck that is not to be underestimated. Hoogland has done it again and given us midrange players another excellent, soon to be on the radar, over the top Midrange deck. Try his list if you have yet to do so. The deck plays a lot better than the Junk Deck he popularized back in May.
Good Luck to everyone in what ever events you choose to play this weekend.
Putrefy is a solid removal spell that also hits artifacts like Whip and Bident.
I think the control matchup gets better with the inclusion of Liliana Vess. His article says a lot about the deck while also remaining slightly vague. I have been testing the deck and I just defeated Mono Black Devotion and lost to Mono Black aggro after a tight race but I drew lands for 5+ turns while he drew heat. SO if anything the only that hurt was variance. The deck is a lot of fun to play and aggro has a hell of a time.
I'm personally a fan of no TS in Hoogland's Midrange decks. A lot of times it just ins't needed. In this current format( and likely isn't going to change drastically next week) burn is a thing. With 4 Thoughtseize in the main we are not a favorite to even remotely win vs the burn deck.
I like slaughter games for the control matchup and I'm even considering it for my list. It is just narrow is the reason I have yet to include it. The only time I want it is for Sphinx's Revelation. So that is likely only one matchup. While there are some control decks out there in my area, its popularity is waning. I just like having a deck that is prepared to handle whatever is thrown at it.
I understand why Polukranos isn't seeing play in his list. His article was pretty clear about it. He said Lifebane Zombie doesn't effect his deck because of the lack of Polukranos. The Ooze on the otherhand I believe is because he feels that it isn't that important at the moment. I'm sure if Dredge becomes a force in standard the shell could be updated to prey on the deck by adding Ooze and other GY hate cards.
My big question is: Is this list well equipped enough to combat control? I have been playing Monsters since JOU Game Day and have a very positive record vs Control with the deck. I was to say yes this deck can do it. But the lack of Xenagos, the reveler leads me think it needs some Xenagos in the 75. Perhaps the board could handle a few copies. I have also considered Slaughter Games, Ruric Thar, Sire of Insanity, RR #4, Duress, Thoughtseize, and even Mistcutter Hydra or Erebos.
The Nightveil Specter is the big thing that throws me for a loop, but maybe playing it on turn four is no big deal? He has twenty black sources. Nightveil should be be fine to cast. That's similar to what I've run in the past all but that. The four Devour Flesh in the board look weird as well. I am gonna be jamming this before Baltimore. I am intrigued.
Answered all of the questions that I had by addressing the Devour Flesh. And he says add a fourth Nightveil, an Urborg, and a Liliana come this weekend. All things I was hoping to be doing with this deck. Unsure of what gets cut for the fourth Nightveil, maybe a Dragon or a Demon? I love no Thoughtseize builds. The lack of Duress in the board, though... which might be addressed by the Nightveils. For the last few months, I had debated a mono-black build with a jund manabase and decided it was too inconsistent, but Hoogland seems to have figured it out. I want to test this so badly.
I'm guessing Hoogland played 4 courser because he didn't have the 4th copy of SPecter. I built this just a few minutes ago. I am missing a couple lands at the moment but this is what I have done with the list with slight upgrades with M15.
This deck looks like something I tested about a month ago minus the Nightveils of course. I would have never thought of that. I did try jamming pack rat in mine though.
The meta has certainly adapted to Jund Monsters -- per any deck that puts up results.
If you look at lists that have put up numbers they have:
Dropped down some number of Courser of Kruphix. Drawing cards is sweet, but a 2/4 body is pretty derpy.
A number of lists have gone to 3x Domris, in eschewing for an Ultimate Price or the like.
Abrupt Decay has also gotten a lot worse, since D-Sphere and Banishing Light players understand that their O-Rings have big targets on their back. Easier to cast spells like Mortars or Price might be more apropriate.
If MBD has been blowing you out, play fewer Ghor-Clan Rampagers.
The coursers can be instrumental in the Burn matchups though.
I tried 3 Domri. I did like it but at the same time he is a solid removal spell and CA engine once he gets going. He is nuts vs the control decks that play planar cleansing over Detention Sphere or Banishing Light.
I only began playing Abrupt Decay this week because in testing vs Mono Blue, Ultimate Price was miserable when Frostburn Weird and Nightveil Specter were the threats that were allowing Thassa to come to life.
I have no trouble with Mono Black Devotion. I decided to up the Rampagers to 4 because of the relevant 4/4 body and bloodrush really helps me win races against a lot of decks that try to be faster than me. Not to mention it slows down MBD because instead of executing their own plan they have to attempt to foil ours before they can begin to execute theirs. Otherwise they are likely to die from our superior threats.
I don't know what it is but it just seems like I can barely win with Jund Monsters now a days. Is anyone else experiencing this?
I went from having an entire weekend of going undefeated, winning game day, and top 4 in a 150+ player 1k tournament. To going 1-2 at a local monday tournament and losing to decks that I used to crush. Maybe I am going through a slump. It does feel like I draw terribly though... anyways if I don't switch decks for the win a box today here is what I will play
1. Side into your brawlers. This is why a lot of people play Arbor Colossus and Ruric Thar in the side. Size matters in this MU.
2. They only have so many impact dudes. Spot removal for their Polyk's and Eidolon of Blossoms.
3. Like Mono-Red Devotion, Monsters has trouble with their nut draws. Play around it as best you can and know that the matchup is loseable.
The biggest issue I am finding is the way the deck generates such a presence in a short span of time my creatures get out classed quickly. Dragons get know out of the air by a Arbor Colossus or Sylvan primordial. Their Polukranos just gets bigger than mine. Nylea gives everything trample. Then Garruk, Caller of Beasts just refills their hand and they do it all again.
On another note.
I have went up to 4 Domri and 4 courser again to help with consistency. As well as the Coursers helping out the Burn matchup they also provide fluid CA with Domri most of the time allowing me 3 cards per turn. Not to mention how solid Domri's fight ability is solid vs just about any creature out there.
I like the 4th Courser over the 3rd Scavenging Ooze if you still have a lot of burn in your metagame - I probably need to switch mine back to 3 of each for around here though as I'm seeing plenty of small aggro and little to no burn.
I played in an IQ this weekend that was a side event for a Modern PTQ; it didn't start anywhere close to the advertised time as the main event start was delayed nearly an hour which translated into closer to a two hour delay for the IQ that was supposed to be for people who don't play Modern and/or drop the main event. I had more than enough time to waffle on deck choice and individual card decisions. I had been planning to play something pretty similar to what I had played at SCG Columbus a couple weeks ago but ended up cutting Witchstalker and moving Courser of Kruphix back to the main to save the sideboard slots; I thought this was a good choice for the weekend as the part of the new sideboard cards were going to be 2 Anger of the Gods anyway
Overall, I'm okay with where I ended up - I think the 3 Witchstalker and 2 Flesh//Blood main version I almost played is much more aggressive, but I was able to play a better variety of cards in the sideboard this way. However, results speak for themselves as I quickly 2-0'd a couple of brews (blue-green devotion? and a green-black hexproof?) then lost to monoblack at table 1 0-2 before the wheels feel completely off and I lost close matches I think I should've won against White Weenie and American Control. I think the Anger of the Gods could be okay moving forward (just trim a couple of your mana creatures when you side them in), but I wonder if the Setessan Tactics should be a third Golgari Charm as long as there is not a lot of GW or Naya in the local metagame. I dropped with a round left to get a head start on heading home as my 10-year-old son was with me; he had come with me to play in a free casual event that never happened. I had ended up paying for him to play in the IQ as well knowing that it definitely would not go well for him (hopefully it was a valuable learning experience though) as it would have been a complete feel bad to spend the entire day there and not get to play anything.
I seriously debated playing this deck I built based on what Patrick Chapin has been hinting at lately and somewhat based on the BGu deck Sam Black had been trying after PT Theros. I just felt like I would make too many mistakes as it is fairly different and decided to stick with either Gruul Monsters or Jund Monsters instead of a Monsters deck where red is only a splash ...
Anyone else seen lists like this? I'm getting real tempted to try it in the current metagame; there's not as much control running around which used to be our primary prey and swapping Desecration Demon for Stormbreath Dragon, Ghor-Clan Rampager for removal, and Underworld Connections for Domri Rade seems to be a way to build a heavier black deck full of 'monsters' ... besides I would think Xenagos, the Reveler is good in all of the Desecration Demon mirrors
Were you at the Richmond IQ?
On the BGr deck. It looks similar to Owen's deck from a few weeks ago. I like the deck. It can feel clunky at times. But that is how any deck with a ramp strategy can feel without any ramp turn 1 or 2. I like the list and have also toyed with similar ideas. It is just Dragon is hard to beat for most and control just folds to turn 3 dragon, turn 4 dragon. Sure this doesn't happen all that often but when it does it is hard for any deck to compete with this line of plays.
So it has been a while since I last posted on here. I have been busy grinding events lately. But Jund is still my weapon of choice in standard. I have solved the Boss Sligh and Mono Red match up lately. Ratchet bomb makes the red players play differently which gives us the window we need to set up our game. Burn on the otherhand is just a boring and pitiful matchup.
I played in a local Monday Night Magic tournament tonight going an unimpressive 1-2
I faced two rough matchups in the tournament.
Round 1 vs. UWR control 2-1
Round 2 vs. MUD 0-2 (lost to mana screw both games I lost)
ROund 3 vs. Burn aka skill.dek 1-2 (again the mana trouble) When I did beat this kid he acted like he shouldn't have lost and go a little rude. Whatever kid.
How is everyone fairing vs. Burn? I know how to deal with MUD. It isn't as bad as everyone claimed it is. But burn just continues to be the road block preventing me from top 8ing a IQ.
The Ratchet Bomb is flexible depending on what is in my meta. It can be Doom Blade, the 3rd RR, Basically whatever I need it to be. I feel Bomb is my best option right now with all the small aggro I have seen and maybe even the MUD match.
Thanks for clarifying. I didn't think through my statement enough. I have been studying for an exam for my new career and haven't had much time to analyze the specific conditions in which having lands as creatures is good or bad. I would like to bump Nissa to a 2-3 of I think this is a solid number and not four. She just ends up sitting in our hand as long as another copy is on the field.
4 courser of kruphix
3 elvish mystic
2 garruk, apex predator
4 xenagos, the reveler
1 vraska the unseen
2 chandra, pyromaster
1 nissa, worldwaker
1 abrupt decay
2 dreadbore
3 mizzium mortar
3 hero's downfall
1 putrefy
1 golgari charm
2 thoughtseize
2 rakdos's return
1 blood crypt
3 overgrown tomb
2 llanowar wastes
2 mutavault
4 stomping ground
4 temple of malice
4 temple of abandon
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 mistcutter hydra
2 scavenging ooze
2 doom blade
1 golgari charm
2 magma spray
1 slaughter games
1 rakdos's return
2 thoughtseize
This is what I intend to play this week. I think Nissa is good vs all but Cleansing Control. Losing our PWs and creatures to a quicken/Cleansing is rough to begin with but losing all that in addition to a number of land can be devastating if we don't have a ample reserve of lands in play. I feel like 1 Nissa is ok, I wouldn't mind another one, but Xenagos on the other hand...he does god's work.
I agree we should be tuning our deck a bit towards facing the impending popularity of this deck after it's recent performances. This is why I kept garruk, and modified my removal as such to kill many walkers as is needed. Having more Rakdos's return helps in this respect as it can make them discard their hand and can be redirected to the PW to clear it from the board. Only problem here is we must strike the PW down as soon as possible( preferably before it's second activation) otherwise even if we kill it there is a chance it has already ran away with the game.
The deck seemed to have great matchups vs a lot of decks when I tried the Barry Smith list over the weekend. There is a lot of choices to make as well so this is as with all Midrange decks not a play as you go deck. This is a thinking man's deck and one that punishes bad play and rewards skill with such a deck.
4 courser of kruphix
3 nightveil specter
4 desecration demon
4 stormbreath dragon
2 abrupt decay
3 dreadbore
3 hero's downfall
2 mizzium mortars
2 golgari charm
2 rakdos's return
2 underworld connection
4 blood crypt
3 stomping ground
2 mana confluence
1 swamp
1 forest
4 temple of malady
4 temple of malice
1 temple of abandon
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
3 devour flesh
1 pharika's cure
1 doom blade
1 putrefy
1 golgari charm
1 rakdos's return
1 underworld connection
2 drown in sorrow
2 lifebane zombie
1 liliana vess
1 erebos, god of the dead
Round 1 vs. Junk Midrange (2-0)
Round 2 vs. Mono White devotion (2-0)
Round 3 vs RW Burn (0-2)
Round 4 vs. Mono Blue Devotion (2-0)
I felt in control the entire night despite the loss to RW burn, I just can't control EOT Burn spells with abysmal interaction between players in a given game vs burn. But I won't rant about the deck here....
Mono Blue was the best match all night. Game one he thought I was a slow BR Midrange deck. I just played BR lands and swamps til around turn 7. I was killing whatever he played. Finally when I drop a Temple of Malady on the table he sat up a bit and raised his eyebrow with a look on his face that practically said " what is this deck?" I took game 1 after I controlled the board and dropped a demon followed by dragon.
Game 2 was insane. My opponent was really caught off guard when I dropped a Specter after controlling his board keeping him off of animating Thassa. I took a hit from her but the following turn untapped, played land, and passed. He untaps and swings with Familiar,Specter, and Thassa. I play Golgari charm. He realizes there is no real point in sacrificing his familar so he just let's it resolve. I then play downfall on his specter and take no damage. I untap and swing a courser and specter at him on an empty field. Hit for 4 and reveal the top card to my specter. It's his own Specter! I play it and the entire he is saying "no,no,no" while we are both laughing. In the end I won with three Specters, a frostburn weird and a evolved 1/2 cloudfin raptor.
Everyone was saying they didn't understand the Nightveils last night. Then a lot of them seen the match I had with Mono Blue and they understood completely afterwards. The deck is very solid and I am taking it to play some side events at a SCG Premier IQ today. I hope to continue to see success with this deck. As I expect I should. The deck is extremely well thought out, solid construction, and a monstrous marriage of Jund Monsters and Mono Black. Two already solid archetypes in one makes this one powerful deck that is not to be underestimated. Hoogland has done it again and given us midrange players another excellent, soon to be on the radar, over the top Midrange deck. Try his list if you have yet to do so. The deck plays a lot better than the Junk Deck he popularized back in May.
Good Luck to everyone in what ever events you choose to play this weekend.
I think the control matchup gets better with the inclusion of Liliana Vess. His article says a lot about the deck while also remaining slightly vague. I have been testing the deck and I just defeated Mono Black Devotion and lost to Mono Black aggro after a tight race but I drew lands for 5+ turns while he drew heat. SO if anything the only that hurt was variance. The deck is a lot of fun to play and aggro has a hell of a time.
I like slaughter games for the control matchup and I'm even considering it for my list. It is just narrow is the reason I have yet to include it. The only time I want it is for Sphinx's Revelation. So that is likely only one matchup. While there are some control decks out there in my area, its popularity is waning. I just like having a deck that is prepared to handle whatever is thrown at it.
My current Sideboard
3 devour flesh
2 drown in sorrow
1 putrefy
1 pharika's cure
1 golgari charm
2 lifebane zombie
1 liliana vess
1 erebos, god of the dead
1 underworld connections
1 rakdos's return
My big question is: Is this list well equipped enough to combat control? I have been playing Monsters since JOU Game Day and have a very positive record vs Control with the deck. I was to say yes this deck can do it. But the lack of Xenagos, the reveler leads me think it needs some Xenagos in the 75. Perhaps the board could handle a few copies. I have also considered Slaughter Games, Ruric Thar, Sire of Insanity, RR #4, Duress, Thoughtseize, and even Mistcutter Hydra or Erebos.
I'm guessing Hoogland played 4 courser because he didn't have the 4th copy of SPecter. I built this just a few minutes ago. I am missing a couple lands at the moment but this is what I have done with the list with slight upgrades with M15.
4 desecration demon
4 nightveil specter
3 courser of kruphix
4 sylvan caryatid
2 abrupt decay
2 golgari charm
3 dreadbore
3 hero's downfall
2 mizzium mortars
2 underworld connections
2 rakdos's return
1 forest
2 mana confluence
2 swamp
3 stomping ground
4 overgrown tomb
1 temple of abandon
3 temple of malice
3 temple of malady
1 golgari guildgate
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
The coursers can be instrumental in the Burn matchups though.
I tried 3 Domri. I did like it but at the same time he is a solid removal spell and CA engine once he gets going. He is nuts vs the control decks that play planar cleansing over Detention Sphere or Banishing Light.
I only began playing Abrupt Decay this week because in testing vs Mono Blue, Ultimate Price was miserable when Frostburn Weird and Nightveil Specter were the threats that were allowing Thassa to come to life.
I have no trouble with Mono Black Devotion. I decided to up the Rampagers to 4 because of the relevant 4/4 body and bloodrush really helps me win races against a lot of decks that try to be faster than me. Not to mention it slows down MBD because instead of executing their own plan they have to attempt to foil ours before they can begin to execute theirs. Otherwise they are likely to die from our superior threats.
I went from having an entire weekend of going undefeated, winning game day, and top 4 in a 150+ player 1k tournament. To going 1-2 at a local monday tournament and losing to decks that I used to crush. Maybe I am going through a slump. It does feel like I draw terribly though... anyways if I don't switch decks for the win a box today here is what I will play
4 sylvan caryatid
2 scavenging ooze
3 courser of kruphix
4 ghor clan rampager
4 polukranos, world eater
4 stormbreath dragon
4 domri rade
3 xenagos
2 dreadbore
1 mizzium mortars
4 forest
2 mutavault
4 stomping ground
4 overgrown tomb
3 blood crypt
4 temple of abandon
2 temple of malice
3 mistcutter hydra
2 rakdos's return
1 vraska the unseen
3 nylea's disciple
2 golgari charm
1 mizzium mortars
2 putrefy
1 ultimate price
Are we still a good choice in the current meta that seems so heavy in the Mono Blue, Red decks, and Mono Black? Or is it time to just move on?
The biggest issue I am finding is the way the deck generates such a presence in a short span of time my creatures get out classed quickly. Dragons get know out of the air by a Arbor Colossus or Sylvan primordial. Their Polukranos just gets bigger than mine. Nylea gives everything trample. Then Garruk, Caller of Beasts just refills their hand and they do it all again.
On another note.
I have went up to 4 Domri and 4 courser again to help with consistency. As well as the Coursers helping out the Burn matchup they also provide fluid CA with Domri most of the time allowing me 3 cards per turn. Not to mention how solid Domri's fight ability is solid vs just about any creature out there.
4 caryatid
4 courser
4 desecration demon
2 ooze
Has anyone ran up against the Mono green deck? How do we beat something that just pukes out it's hand and bigger creatures than us ,faster than us?
Were you at the Richmond IQ?
On the BGr deck. It looks similar to Owen's deck from a few weeks ago. I like the deck. It can feel clunky at times. But that is how any deck with a ramp strategy can feel without any ramp turn 1 or 2. I like the list and have also toyed with similar ideas. It is just Dragon is hard to beat for most and control just folds to turn 3 dragon, turn 4 dragon. Sure this doesn't happen all that often but when it does it is hard for any deck to compete with this line of plays.
I played in a local Monday Night Magic tournament tonight going an unimpressive 1-2
I faced two rough matchups in the tournament.
Round 1 vs. UWR control 2-1
Round 2 vs. MUD 0-2 (lost to mana screw both games I lost)
ROund 3 vs. Burn aka skill.dek 1-2 (again the mana trouble) When I did beat this kid he acted like he shouldn't have lost and go a little rude. Whatever kid.
How is everyone fairing vs. Burn? I know how to deal with MUD. It isn't as bad as everyone claimed it is. But burn just continues to be the road block preventing me from top 8ing a IQ.
Here is what I am playing after tonight.
4 sylvan caryatid
3 scavenging ooze
3 courser of kruphix
4 polukranos, world eater
3 ghor clan rampager
4 stormbreath dragon
3 domri rade
3 xenagos, the reveler
2 mizzium mortars
2 utimate price
1 dreadbore
2 mutavault
1 mana confluence
4 stomping ground
4 overgrown tomb
3 blood crypt
4 temple of abandon
2 temple of malice
4 mistcutter hydra
2 golgari charm
1 mizzium mortars
2 rakdos's return
2 nylea's disciple
1 Bow of nylea
1 ratchet bomb
2 putrefy
The Ratchet Bomb is flexible depending on what is in my meta. It can be Doom Blade, the 3rd RR, Basically whatever I need it to be. I feel Bomb is my best option right now with all the small aggro I have seen and maybe even the MUD match.