Theros as a block had no good aggro, even though control and midrange were huge. This was the biggest issue for me. Do I want to play a form of black control or some sort of blue control? Or I can go green red or black while for midrange. It was a game of rock paper. No scissors were included. On top of that they dropped the ball on enchantment matters and constellation/inspired were very weak. I never felt like I was going through an awesome line of play, and I would blame that on the power level of the individual cards.
The thing is I like playing midrange in modern, but it wasn't fun at all in this standard. While it was a healthier format than Cawblade, it was just as un fun.
Agreed! So an uncommonly powerful format proved unfun, as did an uncommonly underpowered format. The implication is that power level does not make a format good or fun.
When people see a few weak cards and say "oh man Theros again," they don't realize it's a non-sequitor. There's no real correlation between that observation and their response.
Magic is toning down its power so it doesn't become the next YuGiOh. The skill required to play yugioh did drop, but only with the advent of thematic, premade strategies which made games move too fast for a stable environment and implemented a stupidly long ban list just to try to maintain some semblance of order. The titans were a reaction to 4 mana wraths and cheap, splashable, counterspells (as well as all the other tools that made control a powerhouse), but the titans then made midrange a must use. They realized printing stronger and stronger cards was going to choke out the game's non-competitive audience (which is far greater than the rest) and so they're trying to fix the damn game.
I'm in love with this post. It sums up my perspective perfectly. WotC is reeling back the power levels not because they hate you or modern, but because it was terrible and unsustainable. Zendikar and M11 were unbalanced messes that seemed to herald the decline of MtG. The Titans and Baneslayer are stupid cards that should not have been printed, but were because WotC was reacting to the environment they existed in rather than sucking it up and changing the environment itself.
Delver/Snappy are not the goals of set design, they are the mistakes. Theros was not lame because it was "underpowered," it was lame because the enchantment theme and mechanics were disappointing and underdeveloped. Let's not get ROTTY.
I'm very relieved that WotC has come around and begun to understand their own game, and I hope Post-Modern remains at this level forever. In 5 years when Modern rotates for the first time and the M15 frame becomes the new baseline we will have a format of reasonably fair cards. This would be A Good Thing for MtG.
I really have to disagree here. I don't think a midrange/control top 8 would be a ton of fun. Wizards is trying to print more synergy power than outright like the Titans. More build around cards instead of play this and win. This is good for magic not "lets durdle for 10 turns before I swing for lethal every single game. My local LGS went from 40+ players every friday during Innistrad/RTR, to around 10+ for Theros. Almost all of the players claim to dislike Theros standard, as it's almost all midrange or control. Rouge decks pop up less often , and game states change on a geological time scale. While Theros is easier for new players, you need to support the older ones too.
This down turn is a phase in Magics history, there have been others before it, and there will be more powerful set to come. Just be happy it was powerful creatures and not spells like used to happen
This is fair, I just think it begs the question "what exactly was wrong with Theros?"
I don't think power level was to blame, though that seems to be a common opinion. Theros' problems came from the block design itself. The Enchantment theme was a bust and the two expansions failed to evolve the format meaningfully throughout the year, leading to a stale format. If the entire block had kept up the overall quality of THS first set and constellation had been in from the start (in place of bestow, which could have rolled out in JOU instead), providing a synergistic alternative to stompy midrange in the meta, I wonder if opinions would be different.
Likewise I think The durdliness comes more from the battlecruiser mechanics in THS than the power level. I think making this a midrange format was deliberate on WOTCs part, not something that's inherent to a slightly lower average power scale.
And even with all that said... it was still a much healthier year than cawblade!
I think it feels slightly worse than usual, but its not ridiculous or anything. There are always "those rares" in every set, but somehow the KtK ones feel more dramatically out of place. Those mythic birds, sleep mk2, craw wurm: elephant edition, these cards really stand out as really super-duper not exciting. But really were talking about a half-dozen or so cards... its not that big of a deal.
I felt like Theros' problem had more to do with enchantment theme being half-baked and a few dud mechanics + BNG. I don't really agree that power level was the problem. Power level waxes and wanes and tbh it badly needed to wane after M11 era stupidness. That's not what makes a set good (imo).
KTK could have Theros' power level and still be a great set, is what I'm saying. I just can't tell if it is yet.
I'm with you OP. The effect is strong or whatever but this literally looks like a common. Its hard to think of anything less epic than "two birds v.152"
Feels like it was buffed and consequently rarity-bumped during development or something.
It's basically more of the same just like Dark Ascension was for Innistrad and I'm expecting it's appreciation will follow a similar pattern: it will make limited even better, the constructed players on MTGS will moan and complain about how not powerful it is, the Pro Tour will reveal some cool new stuff, the netdeckers will follow and once Journey into Nix hits we're likely to find some more synergies thus making Born of the Gods liked by the netdeckers who will claim that they all knew how good the stuff truly was from the get-go
I know this is from pages ago, but I really like this post.
Everyone thought Dark Ascension was garbage when it came out. It's very easy to forget that. Everyone also thought Dragon's Maze was bad, and that time they were right.
There's just something about small sets... we apparently inherently dislike them.
Personally BNG gives me more of a DKA vibe, less DGM. It just FEELS like there's something here that we're missing. There are lots of subtle synergies and too many weirdo cards and mechanics to just write it all off as a "dropped ball" before testing has gotten serious. Something in here is going to catch standard off-guard, I'm almost positive.
Played alpha a bit over the holiday. Pretty disappointed. There's really no innovation or vision here. Its just a bland mtgo clone (to the point that I anticipate a lawsuit) with an sp campaign (to be added at some future date).
What's the point? they could have really explored the game space of being a digital-only mmo-ccg and made something fresh. I sorta get the feeling they bit off more than they could chew. Like their vision and talent was suited to the fringe product they were originally making, but they didn't know what to do with millions of $$$
And I mean manually Passing priority 4x per turn in a game built ground-up for digital? Seriously?
Oh well. I dont hate it as much ad I'm making it sound. I'm just disappointed.
It's funny, I made a nearly identical deck on MTGO when Theros first released. The theme was "one drop mono red" and the only difference was no Arena Athlete or Ash Zealot, a little more burn, and a few more mountains.
I don't think I ever won a game. It seemed terrible so I quickly abandoned it. I never would have guessed that a few tweaks (and probably a better pilot than me) could have made it a competitive deck.
I like the changes to the OP control deck Ensoleille. I'm curious about the 3x Lazav. He's neat but I've had no luck getting him to trigger reliably in past testing (pre-Theros).
At best he seems like an alternate wincon for a focused mill deck, but yours doesn't have much milling power (rightly so, imo, since milling doesn't seem effective at all compared to dropping an Aetherling).
I tried it, but giving away 3/3s is a bit much. Rapid Hybridization's strength is that its a combat trick at least as often as its removal. But you dont want to be giving yourself tokens with this deck. It just didn't fit, even though superficially I agree it looks perfect.
Shame, because turning Rakdos into a barfing frog mutant is a thing I want to do.
The goal is to turn all of your opponent's threats into terminally ill animals. Get out 2 Illness in the Ranks and they'll have a hard time casting anything thanks to Swan Song and Curse of the Swine.
Ratchet Bomb and Cyclonic Rift clear counters when you can't find Illness. Dissolve, Syncopate and the obligatory Thoughtseize help stall. Omenspeaker is a wall.
Milling is the win con, basically just to be different. You have enough stalling power to hold up the game for a long time while you build up huge Mind Grinds, tick up Jace, or dig for bombs with Ashiok. You might even get to connect with Mirko Vosk for the first time in your life... but probably not.
My minimal Cockatrice testing suggests this deck is good at annoying people for 12 turns until they finally beat you. But it all feels worthwhile when you turn Niv Mizzet into a sick pig that promptly dies.
Agreed! So an uncommonly powerful format proved unfun, as did an uncommonly underpowered format. The implication is that power level does not make a format good or fun.
When people see a few weak cards and say "oh man Theros again," they don't realize it's a non-sequitor. There's no real correlation between that observation and their response.
This is fair, I just think it begs the question "what exactly was wrong with Theros?"
I don't think power level was to blame, though that seems to be a common opinion. Theros' problems came from the block design itself. The Enchantment theme was a bust and the two expansions failed to evolve the format meaningfully throughout the year, leading to a stale format. If the entire block had kept up the overall quality of THS first set and constellation had been in from the start (in place of bestow, which could have rolled out in JOU instead), providing a synergistic alternative to stompy midrange in the meta, I wonder if opinions would be different.
Likewise I think The durdliness comes more from the battlecruiser mechanics in THS than the power level. I think making this a midrange format was deliberate on WOTCs part, not something that's inherent to a slightly lower average power scale.
And even with all that said... it was still a much healthier year than cawblade!
Let's not be too hasty. There's still a chance KtK will not be a magic the gathering set.
KTK could have Theros' power level and still be a great set, is what I'm saying. I just can't tell if it is yet.
Feels like it was buffed and consequently rarity-bumped during development or something.
I know this is from pages ago, but I really like this post.
Everyone thought Dark Ascension was garbage when it came out. It's very easy to forget that. Everyone also thought Dragon's Maze was bad, and that time they were right.
There's just something about small sets... we apparently inherently dislike them.
Personally BNG gives me more of a DKA vibe, less DGM. It just FEELS like there's something here that we're missing. There are lots of subtle synergies and too many weirdo cards and mechanics to just write it all off as a "dropped ball" before testing has gotten serious. Something in here is going to catch standard off-guard, I'm almost positive.
Personally skipping the box this time though.
What's the point? they could have really explored the game space of being a digital-only mmo-ccg and made something fresh. I sorta get the feeling they bit off more than they could chew. Like their vision and talent was suited to the fringe product they were originally making, but they didn't know what to do with millions of $$$
And I mean manually Passing priority 4x per turn in a game built ground-up for digital? Seriously?
Oh well. I dont hate it as much ad I'm making it sound. I'm just disappointed.
Edit: mad typos yo
I don't think I ever won a game. It seemed terrible so I quickly abandoned it. I never would have guessed that a few tweaks (and probably a better pilot than me) could have made it a competitive deck.
MtG never stops surprising me.
The set I had before didn't have flavor text, and I was looking for these scans everywhere. Really appreciate it.
At best he seems like an alternate wincon for a focused mill deck, but yours doesn't have much milling power (rightly so, imo, since milling doesn't seem effective at all compared to dropping an Aetherling).
How has Lazav worked out for you so far?
I tried it, but giving away 3/3s is a bit much. Rapid Hybridization's strength is that its a combat trick at least as often as its removal. But you dont want to be giving yourself tokens with this deck. It just didn't fit, even though superficially I agree it looks perfect.
Shame, because turning Rakdos into a barfing frog mutant is a thing I want to do.
4 Watery Grave
4 Temple of Deceit
8 Island
5 Swamp
Creature (5)
4 Omenspeaker
1 Mirko Vosk, Mind Drinker
4 Curse of the Swine
3 Cyclonic Rift
2 Dissolve
4 Swan song
4 Thoughtseize
1 Syncopate
4 Mind Grind
Enchantment (4)
4 Illness in the Ranks
Artifact (4)
4 Ratchet Bomb
Planeswalker (4)
2 Jace, Memory adept
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
The goal is to turn all of your opponent's threats into terminally ill animals. Get out 2 Illness in the Ranks and they'll have a hard time casting anything thanks to Swan Song and Curse of the Swine.
Ratchet Bomb and Cyclonic Rift clear counters when you can't find Illness. Dissolve, Syncopate and the obligatory Thoughtseize help stall. Omenspeaker is a wall.
Milling is the win con, basically just to be different. You have enough stalling power to hold up the game for a long time while you build up huge Mind Grinds, tick up Jace, or dig for bombs with Ashiok. You might even get to connect with Mirko Vosk for the first time in your life... but probably not.
My minimal Cockatrice testing suggests this deck is good at annoying people for 12 turns until they finally beat you. But it all feels worthwhile when you turn Niv Mizzet into a sick pig that promptly dies.