This card has consistently been a problem in any deck willing to invest in any amount of mana dorks/mana rocks and a small amount of draw. It takes a comically small board state to suddenly "go off". I'm talking 1-2 mana rocks and 1-2 mana dorks. This is a problem, both for cEDH and casual. Whereas Prophet of Kruphix provides a lot of midrange/controllish value, this card absolutely puts some combo decks over the top just by its mere presence. I'd like to see a ban on this card. Hell, i'd accept a Prophet unbanning just to see this card gone.
Edit:
After reading through some of the dissension on this thread about it being banned or considered to be banned, why is the general argument against its banning: "Well, it doesn't do anything if you don't build your deck around it". Why is that the point? I get that that was the criteria for the banning of Sylvan Primordial, Primeval Titan, and Prophet of Kruphix, but that is not the only criteria for a card needing to be banned. Look at Coalition Victory. You can't just throw that in a deck and have it be over powered. Same with Painter's Servant, Biorhythm, Worldfire and many others. Believe it or not, cards can be problematic even if throwing them into a casual deck doesn't break them.
The fact that it doesnt do anything on it's own is the critical reason why it won't be banned. The cards you all listed either 1) were insanely strong on their own, 2) are poor for the nature of the format, or 3) poor for a multiplayer game. I don't see Paradox Engine falling into those categories.
If Paradox Engine is able to ruin a game of mine it means I let someone have insane amount of ramp and access to card draw with no repercussions, which is on me as a player to be better about.
You are greatly overstating how much of a board presence one needs to take advantage of PE. Unless you are literally blowing up every mana rock and dork that your opponents play(you aren't), then it is extremely easy for someone to assemble infinite mana and/or card draw with Paradox Engine and a pretty limited board state. Hell, I've seen people go off with a single Selvala, Explorer Returned.
Not a new idea or anything, but Planeswalker EDH (Where your commander can be any Planeswalker) has seemed fun and interesting to me. Opens up a lot of possibilities.
This card has consistently been a problem in any deck willing to invest in any amount of mana dorks/mana rocks and a small amount of draw. It takes a comically small board state to suddenly "go off". I'm talking 1-2 mana rocks and 1-2 mana dorks. This is a problem, both for cEDH and casual. Whereas Prophet of Kruphix provides a lot of midrange/controllish value, this card absolutely puts some combo decks over the top just by its mere presence. I'd like to see a ban on this card. Hell, i'd accept a Prophet unbanning just to see this card gone.
Edit:
After reading through some of the dissension on this thread about it being banned or considered to be banned, why is the general argument against its banning: "Well, it doesn't do anything if you don't build your deck around it". Why is that the point? I get that that was the criteria for the banning of Sylvan Primordial, Primeval Titan, and Prophet of Kruphix, but that is not the only criteria for a card needing to be banned. Look at Coalition Victory. You can't just throw that in a deck and have it be over powered. Same with Painter's Servant, Biorhythm, Worldfire and many others. Believe it or not, cards can be problematic even if throwing them into a casual deck doesn't break them.
The new bolas is amazing. His +1 is super strong. His +2 has high variance but is card advantage almost regardless of what you hit. His minus abilities are not the best in the world for EDH, but that just means you don't NEED doubling season to take advantage of him. I'm super hyped for him but I'm sure his price is going to be extremely steep based on this + the general hype for this release.
While some cards like Increasing Savagery are probably okay in this sort of deck, I think I'd much rather just cast four and five color cards like Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder and Maelstrom Archangel to give Ramos his counters as those cards actually do things themselves.
Agreed here. I don't think janky "Add counters" to creatures is really going to be worth it when it naturally is going to be gaining counters off spells. I think mana fixing with things like Prismatic Omen and Chromatic Lantern will be more important so you can cast lots of colorful stuff, which will in turn give Ramos counters which lets you cast more colorful stuff. Also when Ramos is getting removed and locked out of the game you aren't completely out of luck.
I don't know if the card is good enough to warrant inclusion without an energy subtheme, and of course as it stands there are only 1(2?)sets released with energy in mind, making the support for it pretty lackluster. Without extra energy you're looking at 6 permanents that need to die before it possibly gives you back value, and while its ceiling is high I'm not sure that if in practice it would really be worth it. Demon of Dark Schemes is just about the only energy card I've seen played seriously but YMMV.
I'd go Sigarda, Host of Herons over Dragonlord Dromoka in the command zone to start. Or if you didn't pick Sigarda because it's too easy or something like that there's always Krond the Dawn-Clad who could be fun in a more casual setting.
There are situations where I've played this card and not had something to sac and desperately needed to kill a creature. Bad deck construction, probably, but these situations do arise.. that, combined with sorcery speed makes it pretty eh. But hey, 1 mana removal can always be relevant, I suppose.
Only commander I play in my list is actually Maelstrom Wanderer. Probably the most fun deck I have, too, but I can barely play it because people hate Cascade as a mechanic. Same with Yidris. I had a Marchesa deck that was super fun though, might rebuild it if I can optimize it but Grixis is not my favorite color combo.
Lots of groans when my Maelstrom Wanderer actually Cascades into 2 decent spells. Enough so that I only use it once in a blue moon, even after taking out all Time Magic/Extra Turns and never having included any MLD.
What is your stance on grouphug? Do you love it or hate it?
To me, grouphug goes against the entire point of magic. Okay, maybe not the entire point. I suppose you can have fun making no attempt, or a feeble attempt, at winning. You are essentially there to prop up the other 3+ players and then, in my experience, "team up" with the player who is not doing well or who targeted you with the least amount of spells/attacks. But regardless, there is a very limited attempt to win. A lot of grouphug players I have inquired to about their position have basically told me some variant of "I don't mind coming in second!" or "As long as I'm not last" when asked why they play what they play.
Grouphug warps the game. In fact, in my experience it makes the game a lot less fun. Your deck's synergies and efficiencies are a lot less noticeable when everyone is being boosted. It is much harder to gain any semblance of a tempo advantage. And thus, in my opinion, many EDH games of mine have been more or less ruined by Grouphug players. To note, I play neither weak decks nor unfair decks, but they are all designed to have a good chance of winning. Very few of them have more than say a 75%+ win rate, and the ones that do I rarely break out. So I would say I play semi-competitively and at times casually. Regardless of what type of deck I am playing, grouphug is unsettling. It either makes my strong deck weaker compared to other players, or makes my weaker decks be able to catch up, but boosts other player's powerful decks so hard that I've lost any chance to compete.
A lot of magic is about the nuance of tempo, and I think that Grouphug fundamentally ruins that. And furthermore, I think that it is silly and somewhat aggravating to play against people in a strategy game that aren't at least putting in SOME effort to win. Akin to playing someone in chess that purposefully leaves his power pieces vulnerable because he's "just having fun" or something.
Anyway, that is my opinion, I would like to hear from others so:
Do you play a group hug deck? Why? And do you make any serious attempt to win?
Do you have group hug decks in your meta? What are they like?
Do you like or dislike playing versus Grouphug decks?
A big weakness(but surely not the only weakness) of Boros is that most EDH players shy away from Armageddon effects. When you have both of the colors that are extremely effective at leveling the playing field with land destruction effects but land destruction is frowned upon it is hard to find balance. And this is why G/x/x decks run Rampant. Puns intended.
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You are greatly overstating how much of a board presence one needs to take advantage of PE. Unless you are literally blowing up every mana rock and dork that your opponents play(you aren't), then it is extremely easy for someone to assemble infinite mana and/or card draw with Paradox Engine and a pretty limited board state. Hell, I've seen people go off with a single Selvala, Explorer Returned.
Username: Cabz
Username: Cabz
Edit:
After reading through some of the dissension on this thread about it being banned or considered to be banned, why is the general argument against its banning: "Well, it doesn't do anything if you don't build your deck around it". Why is that the point? I get that that was the criteria for the banning of Sylvan Primordial, Primeval Titan, and Prophet of Kruphix, but that is not the only criteria for a card needing to be banned. Look at Coalition Victory. You can't just throw that in a deck and have it be over powered. Same with Painter's Servant, Biorhythm, Worldfire and many others. Believe it or not, cards can be problematic even if throwing them into a casual deck doesn't break them.
Username: Cabz
Username: Cabz
And Dusk // Dawn in a low costed Tymna deck. Both are pretty nice effects. I love 2-for-1 cards in EDH.
Username: Cabz
Agreed here. I don't think janky "Add counters" to creatures is really going to be worth it when it naturally is going to be gaining counters off spells. I think mana fixing with things like Prismatic Omen and Chromatic Lantern will be more important so you can cast lots of colorful stuff, which will in turn give Ramos counters which lets you cast more colorful stuff. Also when Ramos is getting removed and locked out of the game you aren't completely out of luck.
Username: Cabz
Pull from the DeepUsername: Cabz
Username: Cabz
Username: Cabz
Username: Cabz
Username: Cabz
Maybe not the true "best" here, and also I had a hard time deciding because it really depends how you make the deck.
1) Best multiplayer COMBO commander: Teferi, Temporal Archmage
2) Best multiplayer CONTROL commander: Brago/Derevi
3) Best multiplayer AGGRO commander: Maelstrom Wanderer
4) MOST FUN commander to play in multiplayer: Marchesa, the Black Rose
5) MOST FUN commander to play AGAINST in multiplayer: Queen Marchesa
Only commander I play in my list is actually Maelstrom Wanderer. Probably the most fun deck I have, too, but I can barely play it because people hate Cascade as a mechanic. Same with Yidris. I had a Marchesa deck that was super fun though, might rebuild it if I can optimize it but Grixis is not my favorite color combo.
Runner ups include:
Combo- Glissa, Narset
Control- Oloro, Tasigur/Damia(rip Leo)
Aggro- mono-red Grenko, Saskia
Username: Cabz
Username: Cabz
To me, grouphug goes against the entire point of magic. Okay, maybe not the entire point. I suppose you can have fun making no attempt, or a feeble attempt, at winning. You are essentially there to prop up the other 3+ players and then, in my experience, "team up" with the player who is not doing well or who targeted you with the least amount of spells/attacks. But regardless, there is a very limited attempt to win. A lot of grouphug players I have inquired to about their position have basically told me some variant of "I don't mind coming in second!" or "As long as I'm not last" when asked why they play what they play.
Grouphug warps the game. In fact, in my experience it makes the game a lot less fun. Your deck's synergies and efficiencies are a lot less noticeable when everyone is being boosted. It is much harder to gain any semblance of a tempo advantage. And thus, in my opinion, many EDH games of mine have been more or less ruined by Grouphug players. To note, I play neither weak decks nor unfair decks, but they are all designed to have a good chance of winning. Very few of them have more than say a 75%+ win rate, and the ones that do I rarely break out. So I would say I play semi-competitively and at times casually. Regardless of what type of deck I am playing, grouphug is unsettling. It either makes my strong deck weaker compared to other players, or makes my weaker decks be able to catch up, but boosts other player's powerful decks so hard that I've lost any chance to compete.
A lot of magic is about the nuance of tempo, and I think that Grouphug fundamentally ruins that. And furthermore, I think that it is silly and somewhat aggravating to play against people in a strategy game that aren't at least putting in SOME effort to win. Akin to playing someone in chess that purposefully leaves his power pieces vulnerable because he's "just having fun" or something.
Anyway, that is my opinion, I would like to hear from others so:
Do you play a group hug deck? Why? And do you make any serious attempt to win?
Do you have group hug decks in your meta? What are they like?
Do you like or dislike playing versus Grouphug decks?
Username: Cabz
Username: Cabz