MTG Salvation

I need a cut for Contamination. I'd also like constructive criticism/suggestions.

This is almost exactly the same deck as my Kokusho, the Value Star deck in my sig. I've revisited it because I only just noticed how crazy Ob Nixilis, Shackled is. With just a simple commander swap, the power level of this deck jumped several points.

The List


http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ob-nixilis-value-unshackled/

Description
This is a modification of my Kokusho, the Evening Star deck. Originally, this deck's intent was to net as much value from as many plays as possible. With a huge focus on synergy and card advantage it could make some pretty insane plays, but generally would fall to the wayside in a more competitive setting.

Enter Ob Nixilis, Unshackled.

First of all, this guy is insane. Competitive metas are loaded with tutors. Voltron decks just can't function in the face of his first ability. Yes, players can just not tutor while he's on the field, but that means opposing gameplans are pushed back by several turns while everyone waits for Ob to die or to draw into their win conditions.

Secondly, his second ability fits right in with exactly how this deck was already built. Making 1/1s and sacrificing them for value is what this deck already wants to be doing every turn. Now those 1/1s net additional value while also giving me another avenue to win the game. The deck was already abusing cards like Skullclamp and Blood Artist , now those effects contribute to 21 commander damage as well (on my evasive, trampling Demon).

The main differences between this version and Kokusho are Hatred and Lightning Greaves. Kokusho had a focus on slow-looping him because that's the only way he could possibly deal enough damage in the course of a game. Ob Nixilis is a commander you want to come out of the gates swinging. With some mana rocks and a well played Decree of Pain he can kill players with blistering speed. Hatred allows him to kill the turn immediately after I cast him.

Kokusho is probably good enough to play in the deck. Having the ability to slow-loop him still provides valuable life to fuel Bitterblossom, Necropotence, and similar effects. I'm thinking Myojin of Night's Reach, Liliana of the Veil, Living Death, and Whip of Erebos are the cuts I need to make from the original deck.

Myojin, while having an impressive effect, is stunningly slow. Not being able to Reanimate it with the Divinity Counter is a huge bummer and cards like Sadistic Hypnotist and Mind Slash do a pretty good job of tearing apart hands.

Liliana has a lot of great functions, but I'm thinking she may be a little too low-impact and the potential to fuel opponents' graveyard shenanigans is a real drawback.

Living Death isn't so great in this deck since it will mostly bring back value. I can get some engines back on the board while my opponents are getting combo pieces back.

Whip provides valuable, incidental life gain while also allowing me to net extra value from pretty much everything. The problem is exiling the creatures after.

These seems like the weakest cards to me, but I could always use more opinions. I'd also like any suggestions for how to make this deck better. Originally, this was my pet deck. With the printing of Ob Nixilis, Unshackeled I think this is now the most explosive deck I have sleeved. It nets insane value all the time while setting my opponents way further back than I anticipated.

I've also added Helm of Obedience . While it's a little cheesy, it's a pretty effective way to win a game in a hurry. Voltaic Key may be good enough to play here now, but I'm not totally convinced and I'd need another cut.

Let's see if we can kick this deck up another notch.

PS: Don't suggest Maralen of the Mornsong. Allowing all my opponents to tutor is not worth the life Ob deals to them.

It's a Time Warp that you can cast from your graveyard whenever you have extra mana (which will be often). Note how I only mentioned repeatable sources of extra combat steps. There are very few repeatable turn effects available. Sword of Feast and Famine really amps up the effectiveness of these spells and is a great voltron equipment regardless.

Value always seemed like the most fun way to play Narset. I think you are discounting the power of multiple combat step spells. They are almost as good as extra turns in this deck, sometimes better. Waves of Aggression is particularly useful since you can retrace it with all the extra lands you'll inevitably have. Aggravated Assault is also pretty potent.

This is my third attempt at a Karametra based land-destruction deck. My first effort was too control-y and inconsistent. My second version was Elfball and fizzled out in the late game or became a bad version of a Rhys, the Redeemed deck. This version is all about Enchantress.

Enchantress offers the consistent draw engines that this deck needs. It's now less explosive, but much more consistent. My main problem is closing games. 'Lark combo originally provided that stopping power, now I'm relying on more control elements like Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger and Kamahl, Fist of Krosa.

I've been staring at this list for far too long these last few days. I need a bunch of cuts and have no idea where to begin. Cataclysm is under-performing in this version of the deck. Amulet of Vigor isn't as strong, but it's still pretty explosive. I would like to get this to a competitive level, but I'm struggling to get it there and will probably just abandon this whole idea if this version doesn't work out.

This version, like the previous two, has a Wish board. I'm not attached to it, but it provides a valuable tool box.



http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/karametra-god-of-enchantress/

PS: I'm aware I'm entirely devoid of spot removal. That's one of the first things that will make its way into the deck when I start truly tuning it (if I ever get to that point).

Presuming his Teeg deck is at all well constructed, he'll fold to graveyard hate. Rest in Peace, Nihil Spellbomb, an early Leyline of the void, etc. Elesh Norn and similar creatures are also great against Teeg. 3 mana sweepers like Toxic Deluge are great options (Cyclonic Rift, in particular, is a huge bummer). Oblivion Stone and its ilk work well if he's not playing Null Rod or Stony Silence.

Quote from Dies_to_Doom_Blade »

Narset, Enlightned Master was spoiled and my first thought was "How do I break this?"

I'm going to preface this with saying the TappedOut is the most up to date version of the deck. I'm going to make a few changes (particularly to the mana base) after this post is written. I don't always have the presence of mind to copy it here.

The problem I have with your additions are they are hell on the curve. I agree it needs more late game closing power, but its ability to spring right back from land destruction is dependent on a lower curve.

The bounce creatures are excellent in this deck. Any unused mana immediately propagates itself. They turn Mentor of the Meek into a late game shotgun. With Karametra and Amulet of Vigor it's obscene. Glimpse of Nature is also relevant here.

Amulet of Vigor is also an essential part of Selesnya Sanctuary. It enters the battlefield untapped, netting me two mana, then returns itself to my hand. It's a land that won't be hit by my own land destruction ever. I don't play it out, I keep it in my hand.

Recurring Armageddon effects is difficult in these colors. Restock allows me to consistently fuel my board resets. Recollect could be played, but I think the two extra mana is worthwhile. Especially late game. It could be cut because I might not need as many regrowth effects in this version, but testing has shown it to be pretty handy.

Seedborn Muse is a card I played consistently in previous versions, but it actually doesn't do anything. No really, it does nothing. This deck functions almost exclusively during my turn. Seedborn Muse would only allow me to play Whitemane Lion more often, which wouldn't even be a good idea because I'd risk over extending my mana base. Garruk is a repeatable ramp spell that provides Overruns. That sounds like everything this deck wants.

I want to play Aluren. I'm just not sure if I want to play it badly enough to give that insane effects to my opponents.

Fauna Shaman, Pattern of Rebirth, and Defense of the Heart are too slow and vulnerable, IMO. Skyshroud Poacher also sort of falls into this list, though is most definitely better than Fauna Shaman here.

Gyre Sage doesn't actually do much because all my elves are the same size/smaller than it. Bloomtender would likely work better. Wirewood Channelers is too much mana. Late game ramp spells are not particularly useful. The deck ramps extremely hard extremely quickly and then tops out its curve and blows up all the lands. A card that accelerates me past 6 mana is not particularly handy. I made a conscious effort to cut expensive ramp spells and focus on strictly the most efficient means of accomplishing my goals. Upping the curve and adding more ramp spells does not seem like the best strategy, to me. It is entirely against the spirit of the deck, beyond my not believing it's more effective.

Recycle is definitely too much mana. I'll try the equipment tutors. They certainly have increased value since adding Lys Alana Huntmaster (a relatively recent addition).

I've played many Hermit Druid decks in my day. Some for degenerate combo, some for graveyard fuel, and some for strict value. I'm not convinced that's where this deck wants to be. My old Gaddock Teeg deck loved Hermit Druid and Bazaar of Baghdad to feed its graveyard, set up 'Lark combo, and ensure consistent land drops. This is not a 'Lark combo deck. The 'Lark combo is honestly there as a last ditch effort. Everything else has failed, nuke everyone. Graveyard hate is also at an all-time high. The quality of graveyard hate spells is only going to go up in the future. I already make use of my graveyard as a resource, as soon as I become dependent on it this deck is exposed to a whole new world of hate that it actually can't fight against.

I originally had every one drop mana dork I could cram into it. The number I've settled on was the result of testing. Adding more of these guys is absolutely counter to our goal of increasing late game power. They may be Skullclamp fodder, but there are better ways to generate that.

Wirewood Symbiote and Quirion Ranger are both very good. I would like to get them involved. Symbiote much more than Ranger, in spite of its non-elf typing.

Spot removal is great to have. I'm not convinced there are enough things this deck fears to warrant the space. What sorts of creatures does this deck truly fear? These cards are reactive when this deck needs to focus on being proactive as much as possible. Taking out 1 creature is not ever really useful (except for Elesh Norn). Retribution of the Meek has been added and cut more times than any other card in this deck, I think. I'd like to make room for it.

I would play Sterling Grove over Idyllic Tutor or Academy Rector. Needing to pack more sac outlets into this deck is awkward and the mana cost is not ideal. Sterling Grove has the additional bonus of protecting my enchantments when I draw it late game and don't need it. I'm thinking Sterling Grove would do pretty well in my Wish board. Definitely better than Dueling Grounds.

I believe Regal Force to be significantly better than Collective Unconscious. Yes, there is a one mana difference, but Natural Order, Survival of the Fittest, Chord of Calling, AND Green Sun's Zenith can all tutor Regal Force.

Quote from Lef »

There are a number of moving parts to this legend.
The first part, she costs six mana. Six mana for a creature you want to be attacking with is steep. So we either want to have stuff to do before we get to her, or run a mass of acceleration. I don't imagine the creature type is going to matter, but its worth noting that she is a human. Next up, her combat abilities. She has hexproof, which immediately removes a burden from deckbuilding. Hexproof means that interacting with our general is limited to mass removal. When we get to six mana this makes it pretty safe to just run her out there. It also makes it safe to load her up with equipment and enchaments. This brings us to her other combat ability, First Strike. Having no natural evasion and an attack trigger means we want to pump her power very high so attempts made to block her down don't work. This is very similar in principle to a Geist of St. Traft deck, who I would incidentally play in this deck. Finally we get to the juicy part, her on attack trigger. The trigger digs deep enough where Top or other manipulation effects aren't spectacular. You will attack every turn, so a ponder or preordain only really serves to clear out land. They are worthwhile to play to get setup, and to play off the trigger to improve your draws, but not overtly amazing. Tutors on the other hand are great. On average, you only need to play a land and a card to make attacking the equvalent of getting in a turn with Kaalia. Everything after that is gravy. Packing the deck with expensive stuff though is not a good idea since you already need to spend so much mana on Narset. Really what you should be doing is looking to maximize the impact of the spells you can fit into the turns before playing her, and counterspells are terrible with her trigger.

To summarize, We want to play lots of non-creature cards that enable us to survive till our general is online. We want to play permanents that increase our generals power or grant evasion. We want to play creatures that operate on a similar axis such as Geist. We want to play to library tutors. So I would start with a Sunforger and Stoneforge package and work my way outward from there.

This is hardly a way to "break" Narset. In fact, you just described the fairest way to play her.

Quote from Moneystax »

Quote from Beware »

At 2 mana you can play Balance at any time, regardless of you being ahead. If one player is behind you can use Balance to get way ahead. Float a bunch of mana, use all your activated abilities, cast Balance, blast the whole table back to the stone age, unload your hand, pass the turn. Required no set up for you other than having cards in hand and now you have an immense presence and everybody else has to hope to mise a Sol Ring in order to have any hope of getting back into the game. I'd love Balance to get unbanned. It goes in so many of my decks. I'm not convinced it's a good idea though.

This logic applies to basically every mass removal spell like Cataclysm and Jokulhaups and since those cards aren't based off of something as interactive as what the player with the fewest creatures/lands/cards in hand has, they're a more unconditional source of power plays. I am not saying I don't think Balance can be a very, very strong play (it can). I just think it requires skill and some thought in order to achieve its potential, and that is something the format should want to have going. Upheaval is a card where I get it; I think it should be banned. Tap out and cast Upheaval then play something awesome with the rest of your mana. Now you're massively ahead. That's too intense. But Balance? Come on. Someone at the table is already playing with the board/hand state that the card creates. Sure, you could sac all your lands to Zuran Orb after tapping out and turn it into an MLD spell... but you could already play Cataclsym or Jokulhaups.

I don't think W1 is that problematic. IMO the reason people don't play Balancing Act is that giving players a choice of permanents renders the card ineffective. The Azusa player who spewed out 10 lands by turn 4 and already has some monsters in play can just sac most of their lands and keep their fat. Balance makes it so that, if you didn't have creatures, you can control that player -- and you won't even nuke ALL of their lands like a Jokulhaups would. It just reduces them to a relatively fair land count - and since the Azusa player probably has no cards in hand, you just Mind Twisted yourself. That's a hefty cost for a powerful effect, but certainly an interesting play.

This is coming off of recent experience playing the card in a VMA draft. I didn't think it was oppressively good and it took effort to get value out of it every time I drew it. I'm guessing most EDH players have just not played with the card recently or ever and aren't realizing that it'd be a positive inclusion. Also, people don't play the card in Vintage, because it's not powerful enough! Balance is too cool of a card to get play nowhere (except Cube draft) and EDH seems like a quality home for it. My opinion of course

But at 2 mana, it's actually MUCH more simple to net value out of Balance than one of those other spells. Cards like Cataclysm require you to carefully evaluate the field and develop a board state that will thrive under that circumstance. With Balance the effect is asymmetrical. Beyond that, having the crazy low cost-of-entry that Balance does allows the player to do just about anything they were originally planning on doing while also booting the rest of the table back to turn 3. Balance, unlike most symmetrical sweepers, does not rely on your skill to create the perfect scenario. It only needs one player to screw up.

I had Bruna in my initial list. I actually only very recently removed her. The problem is she costs a lot of mana, she's color intensive, and (even with a metric f*** ton of enchantments) is nowhere near large enough to finish off a game in a reasonable amount of time. My concentration of enchantments function on the direct premise of 21 Commander damage. Otherwise, she's just worse than Replenish or Crystal Chimes (or Open the Vaults, which I also cut).

As far as Asuza is concerned, she gets much better with the fetchlands (which I already stated I intend to include). Azusa allows me to go:

Turn 1: Land, Mana dork
Turn 2: Land, Azusa, Land, Land
Turn 3: Karametra

Her sole purpose in the first few turns is to power out Karametra a turn earlier. In the late game she has added value which compounds itself with other synergies. This deck also goes through enough cards in the course of a game that I see Strip Mine a pretty significant percentage of the time. I do agree I could use more ways to get Crucible onto the battlefield, but that's tricky in these colors.

I love Rhys the Redeemed and tried to make him fit a few times. I'm pretty sure he's too mana intensive, but with the addition of Lys Alana Huntmaster and a few more mana elves; he may be playable now.

As for Genesis Wave, this deck isn't necessarily looking to windmill slam big business. As I said, it's a value spell. It allows a board state on the cusp of snowballing to take that last step. I frequently find myself in exactly that scenario. I'm not convinced GWave is the best option, but I think it merits testing and my initial opinion is that it will function more effectively than has been suggested.

Getting KotR huge isn't difficult in an Armageddon heavy game. My real problem is having the mana base be as consistent as I want it to be while still keeping my Forest/Plains count high.

Quote from Rowan »

Soooo, the elf ball version is weaker than the non-elf ball version that you originally linked to? That's not the impression I got in your original post, and I can say that elf ball is extremely strong. Looking over your first list, the new elf ball list is definitely an improvement. It has more synergy. So again, I'm confused.

No, the Elfball version is not as strong as the straight combo/ramp decks that everyone and their mom built when K-meat was spoiled. This version, IMO, is leagues better than my original one. What this list offers in exchange for the raw power of more popular lists is (at the time of construction) an entirely unique premise with a skill intensive set of goals and synergies. It also destroys those other versions, which I find particularly amusing.

This statement boggles my mind completely. What exactly do you consider to be the core of your deck? Nothing I've suggested would take away from your core strategy as I've outlined above. You've got your elf ball and your Armageddons. That's all you really need to win. As for turning it into a mundane ramp deck??? The only ramp related suggestion I made was cutting non-creature based ramp for creature based ramp. Specifically Oracle of Mul Daya and Sakura-Tribe Scout. Both of these are a far cry from a Rampant Growth. Oracle makes a lot sense because you are running an above average number of lands already. Since you don't have access to blue or black effects, you need to gain card advantage any way you can. Oracle is an excellent way to do that in green.

The problem is those suggestions slow down my clock. For this deck to function in playing a fair(ish) game of EDH, it needs to be blisteringly fast. Oracle of Mul Daya could make it's way back into the deck with all the changes I've made, but she is not at all effective for powering out Karametra. Sakura Tribescout is better late-game because it will get me one extra land, but it's worse early game. I can't go Turn 1 Sakura Tribe Scout, Krosan Verge to set up for a huge turn three. Nor can I play a Scout and a Llanowar Elf or a Scout and an Amulet of Vigor. The first three turns of this deck are usually the most important. Once Karametra is on the battlefield, then the deck can start winning the game. This deck needs turn 1-3 explosion, it does not need another non-elf to fetch one extra land.

I believed your comment about cutting vanilla creatures was referring to things like Lys Alana Huntmaster and Elvish Champion. Going through your newer comments it seems like you are more referencing things like 'Lark combo.

Exploration is good, but I'm saying that something like Sakura-Tribe Scout might be even better for the reasons I stated. It's not an elf, but neither is Exploration. At least the scout is a creature which triggers your commander and gives you the other bonus uses that I already stated.

See paragraph above. TL;DR: This deck needs the extra land on the battlefield early game that Exploration provides, not an extra turn late game when Scout is drawn. Exploration also helps with Crucible of Worlds and Strip Mine.

G-wave usually takes as much mana as T and N to be effective, so it sits at the top of your curve either way. I see G-wave as casting a fishing line into a lake and crossing your fingers that something good will bite. Sometimes it's good sometimes it's not. TN is a laser guided nuclear missile. Yes, it costs a lot of mana but it should win you the game 99% of the time. If it doesn't, then don't use it. I certainly understand why are cautious of running it. You plan to Armageddon the field multiple times a game, so indeed it might not be the best option. Worldly Tutor or Sylvan Tutor are good, despite the card disadvantage. Natural Order is of course probably much much better even than TN if you don't have any 2 card infinite combos, but it's also a high-blingage card. Considering that G-wave was thrown in as one of the last 2 free spots tells me it's not that necessary to your plan anyway. Keep it if you want, I'm done discussing it.

I believe Tooth and Nail to be one of the greatest green cards in this format. I really don't think it's a contest. I test with T&N in mind 100% of the time I build a green deck. It was one of only 3 non-creatures over 3 CMC I played in my Gaddock Teeg deck because it's so hilariously busted. I simply don't think it's a feasible play in this deck. It's much better now than in the previous version and G-Waves slot will always be contested.

Something that I would highly recommend doing is organizing your list by function instead of type. It's a lot more useful to see what's going on in the deck. Where you are lacking in redundancy. I usually order the cards in ascending order of cmc after that. [/card]

This is actually how I build every deck. I open a blank notepad, identify key elements, then flesh out each facet. The problem is my first step after the skeleton is done is to import it into TappedOut to get a visual representation of my mana, curve, card types, etc. Since it's so easy to edit on TO I usually abandon the text file after I start making cuts.


As far as the wishboard is concerned, it's actually pretty hyper focused. Overrun is a card that will win games in this deck, but it's impossible to tutor. Collective Blessing is like an Overrun that I can tutor. Whitemane Lion and Stonecloaker are both better than Fleetfoot Panther, so two go in the main board and Panther goes in the 'board since both wishes can get it. Behemoth Sledge is probably good enough in this version to main deck if I add Stoneforge and Steelshaper's Gift. The rest of the board are control cards. Cards that will dig me out of a hole if my plan A goes awry. This allows me to waste 2 slots on a "plan b" instead of 10. Admittedly, Dueling Grounds and Sigarda are nowhere near as useful in this version as my other. I definitely feel the wishboard needs tightening, but I believe it is a huge boon to my options over the course of a multiplayer game.

[quote=GMA]
Genesis Wave - in a deck like this it's totally not worth it. I almost never have a meaningful enough amount of mana when I'm closing a game to make this card worth its reliable casting cost (which I think is x>=8).

Originally I had every card that cost more than 5 in my wishboard. Since then I've moved a few higher CMC bombs into the main, thus decreasing the value of small Waves. In this deck, Wave is played as a value spell. It's a draw spell, for all intents and purposes.

Azusa, Lost but Seeking - it's a wasted spot, IMHO. One can easily pull off a 2-3 turn Karametra with just ramp dorks and artifact acceleration. I did have her in my list at the beginnig but one thing occured to me: how many times do I have 2 lands in hand mid game anyway? Close to never.

Azusa is another MUST in this style of deck. First of all, an Azusa on turn 2 is almost a guaranteed turn 3 Karametra (and potentially some other stuff). Secondly, Crucible of Worlds is a thing. Crucible of Worlds is one of the most important cards in this deck, Azusa makes it entirely broken.

Acidic Slime - this dude is so last year ;-) I'm running Reclamation Sage (which is an elf, btw) to deal with artifacts and enchantments. I've got other means to deal with lands (duh!) and the cost and ease of casting it the Sage is unbeatable. Especially when you're back at 1-2 mana and need to kill something.

Acidic Slime is necessary for Reveillark combo. Reclamation Sage is better if I just want to deal with an artifact or enchantment. More often than not, Slime is used to blow up everyone's non-creature permanents. I don't want to play Yosei, the Morning Star in this deck, so Acidic Slime is the next go-to.

Knight of the Reliquary - you won't kill anybody with it and as a tutor he's quite slow. If you absolutely positively need to have that Gaea's Cradle on the board, I'd switch the knight for Crop Rotation, which can easily allow you to play your "K-Meat" much faster early game.

Crop Rotation is great, but it's not a creature. Also, this is a deck that actually focuses on winning through combat a lot of the time. A 20/20 KotR is pretty scary when it's surrounded by a dozen 6/6s. KotR is preferable to Rotation because it's relevant at all points in the game and has many more options.

I definitely feel this deck needs at least a few fetchlands. I was originally playing none, but testing has shown mana distribution to be a little inconsistent. Unfortunately, Rofellos is not really playable since I'm focusing on Armageddon. That's why I'm not playing Elvish Guidance or Earthcraft/Squirrel Nest (though Earthcraft might be good enough on its own). Kamahl is neat with Elesh Norn, but he's too mana intensive for this version of the deck. I'd be better off with Living Plane like my original version.

I have several enablers. Hammer is the only 3 mana one. Two mana is the most I'm comfortable paying for one with this deck. It's really mana hungry in the early turns as it sets up.

Edit: The actual number of haste enablers is 7.

Quote from Comicalflop »

Hammerhand seems better than emblem of the warmind

That's because it is!