First and foremost thank you all very much for your time and efforts. It's extremely appreciated!!
I am looking for the art of Masked Admirers altered to include three more Elves, with all six of them done up like Blues Brothers (suits, bowler hats. Sunglasses if possible). I would the like "FacelessMTG" to be on the art somewhere.
I think the fact that Harness is an Instant gives this deck more flexibility on how it sequences, which is an extremely powerful thing. I can appreciate that Oath helps turn on the Wolf, but Harness being an Instant helps as well with Fiery Temper currently being the only mainboard instant.
Edit: I also wanted to comment on the 2cmc drop. Wolf is nice with it having First Strike however, I feel that with Advocate being in the format, we need something with three power here. Being able to get Advocate off the table to make way for smaller creatures with a Harness/Oath plus a small creature to trade with their next creature(if larger) seems important. Wolf may be better if a 5cmc sweeper is heavily played, as the Double Strike may be relevant then. However, the timing of Delirium might mean that the damage differential is very marginal.
@Nevelo: Very interesting deck idea. I was trying to get Mono Red Eldrazi to work with a more aggressive theme, those this looks like it may work better. Have you run it against a legitimate control deck with a good pilot behind it? BW PW control, maybe? BW Angels doesn't seem well positioned. In my testing, Showdown is indeed a worse Defiance. I also like Harness Lightning better than Oath of Chandra. I see you have H.L. in your board. Why the choice of Oath instead? Of course it's better with Chandra around, but building for worse case scenario seems better?
@Everyone else: Nevelo's format in his original post is the best I have seen(to memory) of what a first post for deck threads. Looks absolutely stunning and it would be great to see more people move towards it.
Having a constant flow of cards on top of your normal draw step is absolutely crazy with this deck. Combined with Jet, the scry lands and RtB, you get to do some crazy stuff.
Underworld Connections is not bad in the aggro match up. If you have tested this card and came to that conclusion, then perhaps you are trying to utilize it too early. I have never been disappointed to see that card in my hand, unless it was a hand I was going to mulligan due to no land anyways. However, as I stated a few pages back, I feel that this deck wants some mix of Connections and RtB.. The amount of draw and filter you have in this deck with both cards is a complete nightmare for any deck to play against. You always have an answer, you always have a threat.
What cut do you make, though? As far as sorcery-speed goes:
Anger of the Gods- Sweeper, can't really cut
Dreadbore- Hits PW's, can't really cut
Mizzium Mortars- Hits BBoV and is a sweeper turn six and after.
I could see cutting Mortars for it if BBoV isn't in your meta, for sure.
@MrRotten, one more thing.. I see your list isn't running Elspeth. Why did you feel she wasn't worth space? She's been an absolute beast for me, so I'm very curious on this also
@elMochaLatte:
Go to the first page of this thread, read the first post.
Then go to the 31st page of this thread, read Khamal's huge post a few from the top.
This is the best version of this deck I've seen on here so far, and definitely the direction I wanted to take my list that I posted on page 60(our lists are very close). I think that you are definitely making the call as to what card is interchangeable with Magma Jet. It's not the Read the Bones slot, it's the burn-removal slot. I've been very concerned about making that kind of swap though. How have your games against the hyper-aggressive deck been going? Your list looks about as life-hungry as mine if not a bit more, do you really not miss the life gain against aggro? Also, how many times have you wished that Jet was Helix when faced with Walkers(I'm aware Helix doesn't really kill them by itself, but you end up with a lot of options with this deck). Very nice changes, I will test the Jet/Helix switch as well after hearing your reply
@elMochaLatte:
Welcome to the thread, bud. I would honestly read through the thread, or at least the primer on the first page. Khamal has a few nice posts around page 30. I think some people are going to start getting testy with people coming into the thread and posting an untested list without reading any of the thread Cheers though, and again, welcome
A few quick things I'll respond in further detail when I have time:
- I was having issues with control before I added in Return. Control gets to go through a lot of cards, spot disruption alone hasn't been good enough in my testing. Pushing them to tap out for their threat with Return then destroying their threat the next turn has resulted in many wins for me. Midrange match ups included.
-
elspeth is simply better than assemble. There's literally no reason to run assemble over the 3rd elspeth.
Dreadbore, burn and Hero's Downfall have something to say about that. Detention Sphere is the only answer to it mainboard (from lists I've been playing against) if it resolves. Assemble the Legion has been great for me. It diversifies our threats more, which in my mind is better. We are also not a deck that needs Elspeth as a panic button, so where Assemble the Legion isn't fast enough in some decks, we are grindy enough that it works just fine.
- I had Jet and no Bones in my mainboard when I first started this deck. Jet is outclassed by all of our other removal, we need the dig/draw in this deck imho. Being able to set up and burn a little dude is nice, but I think we can be doing better things. I rather have removal that hits anything or something that digs for what I need. Too often I would scry, find an answer, then lose because I didn't get to draw said answer. This deck plays hungry, and I feel like having Jet in here is like throwing a starving man a piece of bread when you could have given him a sandwich.
Back with some things I found during testing the last few days:
- I've found that having as diverse a threat-package mainboard is definitely the way to go. Being able to throw down Elspeth, Sun's Champion or Assemble the Legion while your opponent is trying to deal with your pesky creature suite, compounded with our disruption package is way too much for most decks to deal with. Playing straight creatures is not the direction we need to take, imho.
- Underworld Connections and Read the Bones both need to be in this deck, to some number. Being able to dig through four cards if needed is great for this deck, and the recurring card draw you get from Underworld Connections knocks the game out of the park for anything not hyper-aggressive. Still fighting for spots in the mainboard sadly.
- I am not comfortable not having a mainboard answer to BBoV, so I personally believe Mizzium Mortars is a must. This is another reason why I believe Elspeth is important. Mortars has been amazing for me in every game except UW, so I feel that it earns it's mainboard slots. Esper may not run BBoV right now, but that does not mean that we will not have to worry about removing it from play (game one [Ashiok]).
- Planeswalkers are going to be popular as kittens, we need to have at least 4 "Destroy target planeswalker" effects mainboard.
- We have a few close game one matches with the hyper aggro BTE 12 one-drop deck and Esper, however post-board nothing has been even close to unfavorable for me. How have you guys been doing post-board? I fee like we have access to the best sideboard in standard right now.
- I do not think this deck wants a 4cc creature right now. We don't want to be that proactive I don't think. I'm the happiest when I can go:
Turn 1 Land
Turn 2 Land, Removal if needed
Turn 3 Land, Something they need to deal with (Collector, Reckoner, Connections, Bones)
Turn 4 Land, Removal
Turn 5 Threat
I don't think that dropping a big, easily killed guy on turn four is what we want to be doing. Nor is it something we want to be doing on any turn. I rather use those four slots on PW's, Assemble the Legion and more answers or card draw. This pool is naturally very strong against aggressive/midrange decks, so I think Demon is a really moot point. I rather be interacting with my own hand, or my opponents hand/board state for those slots.
I feel like I'm very close to the list I'm going to be running this weekend. I feel that the early knowledge/disruption Thoughtseize gives is something we want mainboard, even if only as a 2-of. Where to fit it in is the question.
Edit: One thing that I forgot.. Sin Collector is really, really great in our deck. If you haven't tried running her mainboard, please try a few out. Being able to pressure life total/loyalty counters early while giving you important information on top of possibly grabbing a card from your opponent's hand is really great in the control match up. Taking Mono Red's burn spell while they're tapped out and trading with a dork isn't the worst either. Having her, our draw package and Reckoner as our turn three is the kind of tempo we want. If you find yourself a few points shy of stabilizing, a few threats short of getting the job done, try her out.
Just curious, why the Desecration Demon in the side? He seems like either Mainbpard or not at all to me.
Hey man, I can see how that would look weird. Sorry I should have explained. Lots of decks running Elspeth over here. Demon is just terrible against Elspeth, so I keep it in the board. I may remove them for something else depending on what around me end up looking like.
Sin Collector - This card is going to be a house this standard season, imho. This deck is all about knowing what answers to use where, and having knowledge of what is in your opponent's hand is extremely useful. Thoughtseize is great and all, but a body is more threatening in the control match up. Furthermore, Thoughtseize against Mono Red is super lame in my testing. Sin Collector to take their burn spell when they're tapped out, or a peak at their hand to help you set up a game plan is better than Thoughtseizez G1 imho.
Read the Bones(Over Magma Jet) - This deck really needs some form of solid card draw, and this card really fills the role well. Magma Jet is great, don't get me wrong.. But I feel like it gets outclassed in the amazing pool of removal we have at our hands.
Assemble the Legion/Elspeth, Sun's Champion - Both of these cards are powerhouses against both sides of the deck spectrum and I believe that the best version of this deck will be running some mixture of both of these cards. Having such a diverse threat package is amazing in the control matchup.
I tried to make my removal package as diverse and as "on" as possible against as much of the popular threats as possible. The mono black removal spells, while cheap and usually effective, just don't cut it in the current standard environment imho.
I think that an extremely reactive, low number of permanents-style build is best. Jace is awesome, to be sure.. But it feels like this deck doesn't want to tap on its own turn unless it's kacking your opponent's hand or dropping Aetherling. Master of Cruelties is awesome out of the sideboard in my testing. This deck loves MoC, as with burn your opponent is dead the very next turn it come into play. While Aetherling is much more resilient to removal, imho MoC is the best way to take advantage of our opponent boarding out all of their removal.
My list has a lot of 2 of's, as I have no idea what the meta will be. This deck has a solid draw engine, so it feels like we can afford to be diverse in our answers. Whether we should be counter heavy, removal heavy or a 50/50 split is something I'm unsure of. As you can see I went the removal heavy route.
I think that an extremely reactive, low number of permanents-style build is best. Jace is awesome, to be sure.. But it feels like this deck doesn't want to tap on its own turn unless it's kacking your hand or dropping Aetherling. Master of Cruelties is awesome out of the sideboard in my testing. This deck loves MoC, as with burn your opponent is dead the very next turn it come into play. While Aetherling is much more resilient to removal, imho MoC is the best way to take advantage of our opponent boarding out all of their removal.
My list has a lot of 2 of's, as I have no idea what the meta will be. This deck has a solid draw engine, so it feels like we can afford to be diverse in our answers.
In regards to Slip, I think it may be more important to have the "Exile" clause on our 1cc removal spell(Pillar), as it deals with things like Gravecrawler and Geralf's Messenger.
- The only deck Mutilate is too slow against imho is Br Zombies, thus the mainboard choice. It leads to a bit of a gross mana base, but it's been working fine.
- Demon>Nighthawk for this build. I think that Demon is a really under-rated card for Jund.. It doesn't die to tons of removal including Decay and Mortars, it blocks Geist(beefed up of not), or the Angel token all while surviving Mutilate.
- Very happy with this build. Still looking to solidify the very top of the curve, but it's performing very well.
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I am looking for the art of Masked Admirers altered to include three more Elves, with all six of them done up like Blues Brothers (suits, bowler hats. Sunglasses if possible). I would the like "FacelessMTG" to be on the art somewhere.
Thank you again for anyone that gives it a shot!!
This is definitely not the case :
https://wpn.wizards.com/en/products/iconic-masters
Edit: I also wanted to comment on the 2cmc drop. Wolf is nice with it having First Strike however, I feel that with Advocate being in the format, we need something with three power here. Being able to get Advocate off the table to make way for smaller creatures with a Harness/Oath plus a small creature to trade with their next creature(if larger) seems important. Wolf may be better if a 5cmc sweeper is heavily played, as the Double Strike may be relevant then. However, the timing of Delirium might mean that the damage differential is very marginal.
@Everyone else: Nevelo's format in his original post is the best I have seen(to memory) of what a first post for deck threads. Looks absolutely stunning and it would be great to see more people move towards it.
Having a constant flow of cards on top of your normal draw step is absolutely crazy with this deck. Combined with Jet, the scry lands and RtB, you get to do some crazy stuff.
Underworld Connections is not bad in the aggro match up. If you have tested this card and came to that conclusion, then perhaps you are trying to utilize it too early. I have never been disappointed to see that card in my hand, unless it was a hand I was going to mulligan due to no land anyways. However, as I stated a few pages back, I feel that this deck wants some mix of Connections and RtB.. The amount of draw and filter you have in this deck with both cards is a complete nightmare for any deck to play against. You always have an answer, you always have a threat.
Anger of the Gods- Sweeper, can't really cut
Dreadbore- Hits PW's, can't really cut
Mizzium Mortars- Hits BBoV and is a sweeper turn six and after.
I could see cutting Mortars for it if BBoV isn't in your meta, for sure.
@MrRotten, one more thing.. I see your list isn't running Elspeth. Why did you feel she wasn't worth space? She's been an absolute beast for me, so I'm very curious on this also
@elMochaLatte:
Go to the first page of this thread, read the first post.
Then go to the 31st page of this thread, read Khamal's huge post a few from the top.
This is the best version of this deck I've seen on here so far, and definitely the direction I wanted to take my list that I posted on page 60(our lists are very close). I think that you are definitely making the call as to what card is interchangeable with Magma Jet. It's not the Read the Bones slot, it's the burn-removal slot. I've been very concerned about making that kind of swap though. How have your games against the hyper-aggressive deck been going? Your list looks about as life-hungry as mine if not a bit more, do you really not miss the life gain against aggro? Also, how many times have you wished that Jet was Helix when faced with Walkers(I'm aware Helix doesn't really kill them by itself, but you end up with a lot of options with this deck). Very nice changes, I will test the Jet/Helix switch as well after hearing your reply
@elMochaLatte:
Welcome to the thread, bud. I would honestly read through the thread, or at least the primer on the first page. Khamal has a few nice posts around page 30. I think some people are going to start getting testy with people coming into the thread and posting an untested list without reading any of the thread
Thanks for the input man, awesome!!
A few quick things I'll respond in further detail when I have time:
- I was having issues with control before I added in Return. Control gets to go through a lot of cards, spot disruption alone hasn't been good enough in my testing. Pushing them to tap out for their threat with Return then destroying their threat the next turn has resulted in many wins for me. Midrange match ups included.
-
Dreadbore, burn and Hero's Downfall have something to say about that. Detention Sphere is the only answer to it mainboard (from lists I've been playing against) if it resolves. Assemble the Legion has been great for me. It diversifies our threats more, which in my mind is better. We are also not a deck that needs Elspeth as a panic button, so where Assemble the Legion isn't fast enough in some decks, we are grindy enough that it works just fine.
- I had Jet and no Bones in my mainboard when I first started this deck. Jet is outclassed by all of our other removal, we need the dig/draw in this deck imho. Being able to set up and burn a little dude is nice, but I think we can be doing better things. I rather have removal that hits anything or something that digs for what I need. Too often I would scry, find an answer, then lose because I didn't get to draw said answer. This deck plays hungry, and I feel like having Jet in here is like throwing a starving man a piece of bread when you could have given him a sandwich.
- I've found that having as diverse a threat-package mainboard is definitely the way to go. Being able to throw down Elspeth, Sun's Champion or Assemble the Legion while your opponent is trying to deal with your pesky creature suite, compounded with our disruption package is way too much for most decks to deal with. Playing straight creatures is not the direction we need to take, imho.
- Underworld Connections and Read the Bones both need to be in this deck, to some number. Being able to dig through four cards if needed is great for this deck, and the recurring card draw you get from Underworld Connections knocks the game out of the park for anything not hyper-aggressive. Still fighting for spots in the mainboard sadly.
- I am not comfortable not having a mainboard answer to BBoV, so I personally believe Mizzium Mortars is a must. This is another reason why I believe Elspeth is important. Mortars has been amazing for me in every game except UW, so I feel that it earns it's mainboard slots. Esper may not run BBoV right now, but that does not mean that we will not have to worry about removing it from play (game one [Ashiok]).
- Planeswalkers are going to be popular as kittens, we need to have at least 4 "Destroy target planeswalker" effects mainboard.
- We have a few close game one matches with the hyper aggro BTE 12 one-drop deck and Esper, however post-board nothing has been even close to unfavorable for me. How have you guys been doing post-board? I fee like we have access to the best sideboard in standard right now.
- I do not think this deck wants a 4cc creature right now. We don't want to be that proactive I don't think. I'm the happiest when I can go:
Turn 1 Land
Turn 2 Land, Removal if needed
Turn 3 Land, Something they need to deal with (Collector, Reckoner, Connections, Bones)
Turn 4 Land, Removal
Turn 5 Threat
I don't think that dropping a big, easily killed guy on turn four is what we want to be doing. Nor is it something we want to be doing on any turn. I rather use those four slots on PW's, Assemble the Legion and more answers or card draw. This pool is naturally very strong against aggressive/midrange decks, so I think Demon is a really moot point. I rather be interacting with my own hand, or my opponents hand/board state for those slots.
I feel like I'm very close to the list I'm going to be running this weekend. I feel that the early knowledge/disruption Thoughtseize gives is something we want mainboard, even if only as a 2-of. Where to fit it in is the question.
Edit: One thing that I forgot.. Sin Collector is really, really great in our deck. If you haven't tried running her mainboard, please try a few out. Being able to pressure life total/loyalty counters early while giving you important information on top of possibly grabbing a card from your opponent's hand is really great in the control match up. Taking Mono Red's burn spell while they're tapped out and trading with a dork isn't the worst either. Having her, our draw package and Reckoner as our turn three is the kind of tempo we want. If you find yourself a few points shy of stabilizing, a few threats short of getting the job done, try her out.
Anyways, here's the list guys:
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Sin Collector
1 Obzedat, Ghost Council
Spells:17
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Anger of the Gods
3 Dreadbore
2 Read the Bones
2 Rakdos's Return
3 Warleader's Helix
1 Hero's Downfall
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Enchantments: 4
2 Chained to the Rocks
1 Assemble the Legion
1 Underworld Connections
Lands: 25
4 Blood Crypt
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Godless Shrine
4 Temple of Silence
2 Temple of Triumph
4 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Thoughtseize
3 Glare of Heresy
2 Magma Jet
2 Shock
1 Underworld Connections
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Rakdos' Return
1 Sin Collector
1 Whip of Erebos
Hey man, I can see how that would look weird. Sorry I should have explained. Lots of decks running Elspeth over here. Demon is just terrible against Elspeth, so I keep it in the board. I may remove them for something else depending on what around me end up looking like.
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Sin Collector
1 Obzedat, Ghost Council
Spells:17
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Anger of the Gods
3 Read the Bones
2 Dreadbore
2 Rakdos's Return
3 Warleader's Helix
1 Hero's Downfall
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Enchantments: 4
2 Assemble the Legion
2 Chained to the Rocks
Lands: 25
4 Blood Crypt
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Godless Shrine
4 Temple of Silence
2 Temple of Triumph
4 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Sin Collector
3 Thoughtseize
3 Glare of Heresy
1 Whip of Erebos
2 Slaughter Games
4 Desecration Demon
Strange card choices:
Sin Collector - This card is going to be a house this standard season, imho. This deck is all about knowing what answers to use where, and having knowledge of what is in your opponent's hand is extremely useful. Thoughtseize is great and all, but a body is more threatening in the control match up. Furthermore, Thoughtseize against Mono Red is super lame in my testing. Sin Collector to take their burn spell when they're tapped out, or a peak at their hand to help you set up a game plan is better than Thoughtseizez G1 imho.
Read the Bones(Over Magma Jet) - This deck really needs some form of solid card draw, and this card really fills the role well. Magma Jet is great, don't get me wrong.. But I feel like it gets outclassed in the amazing pool of removal we have at our hands.
Assemble the Legion/Elspeth, Sun's Champion - Both of these cards are powerhouses against both sides of the deck spectrum and I believe that the best version of this deck will be running some mixture of both of these cards. Having such a diverse threat package is amazing in the control matchup.
I tried to make my removal package as diverse and as "on" as possible against as much of the popular threats as possible. The mono black removal spells, while cheap and usually effective, just don't cut it in the current standard environment imho.
4 Magma Jet
3 Dissolve
3 Far // Away
2 Turn // Burn
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Dreadbore
2 Izzet Charm
2 Rakdos's Return
3 Thoughtseize
1 Opportunity
2 Read the Bones
4 Steam Vents
4 Watery Grave
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Swamp
4 Mountain
2 Mutavault
1 Izzet Guildgate
I think that an extremely reactive, low number of permanents-style build is best. Jace is awesome, to be sure.. But it feels like this deck doesn't want to tap on its own turn unless it's kacking your opponent's hand or dropping Aetherling. Master of Cruelties is awesome out of the sideboard in my testing. This deck loves MoC, as with burn your opponent is dead the very next turn it come into play. While Aetherling is much more resilient to removal, imho MoC is the best way to take advantage of our opponent boarding out all of their removal.
My list has a lot of 2 of's, as I have no idea what the meta will be. This deck has a solid draw engine, so it feels like we can afford to be diverse in our answers. Whether we should be counter heavy, removal heavy or a 50/50 split is something I'm unsure of. As you can see I went the removal heavy route.
4 Magma Jet
3 Dissolve
3 Far // Away
2 Turn // Burn
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Dreadbore
2 Izzet Charm
2 Rakdos's Return
3 Thoughtseize
1 Opportunity
2 Read the Bones
4 Steam Vents
4 Watery Grave
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Swamp
4 Mountain
2 Mutavault
1 Izzet Guildgate
I think that an extremely reactive, low number of permanents-style build is best. Jace is awesome, to be sure.. But it feels like this deck doesn't want to tap on its own turn unless it's kacking your hand or dropping Aetherling. Master of Cruelties is awesome out of the sideboard in my testing. This deck loves MoC, as with burn your opponent is dead the very next turn it come into play. While Aetherling is much more resilient to removal, imho MoC is the best way to take advantage of our opponent boarding out all of their removal.
My list has a lot of 2 of's, as I have no idea what the meta will be. This deck has a solid draw engine, so it feels like we can afford to be diverse in our answers.
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
3 Desecration Demon
2 Disciple of Bolas
2 Olivia Voldaren
2 Garruk Relentless
2 Vraska the Unseen/Bonfire of the Damned/Rakdos' Return
4 Pillar of Flame
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Farseek
4 Mutilate
3 Dragonskull Summit
4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Rootbound Crag
4 Blood Crypt
2 Woodland Cemetery
2 Forest
6 Swamp
A few comments..
- The only deck Mutilate is too slow against imho is Br Zombies, thus the mainboard choice. It leads to a bit of a gross mana base, but it's been working fine.
- Demon>Nighthawk for this build. I think that Demon is a really under-rated card for Jund.. It doesn't die to tons of removal including Decay and Mortars, it blocks Geist(beefed up of not), or the Angel token all while surviving Mutilate.
- Very happy with this build. Still looking to solidify the very top of the curve, but it's performing very well.