Really like where the deck is going, though I need some more ways to get to the combo(s) faster.
The card draw/selection is not quite where I want it to be.
Regarding Benefactor's Draught: I removed Crop Rotation for it. It's been quite good in the couple of test games I played with it. Ranging from being a cantripping Ritual to outright going Infinite with Izzet Guildmage and a couple of mana dorks.
I thought about it, and have been considering testing it. I feel like it'd be a 2CMC Green Sun's Zenith in most cases? I rarely want to recur, but maybe the tutoring versatility makes it good enough.
Well, since it can find creatures of any color, including Sage of Hours it is better than Zenith, in my opinion.
With it I had opponents counter the Sage only to bring it right back.
Also, for finding Sage, it's cheaper than Pod.
So, I'm a huge fan.
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Thank you for this awesome resource on Ezuri. It helped me optimize my own build for my playgroup, which seems to be winning most games nowadays.
Have you considered Finale of Devastation? For me, it's been better than Birthing Pod. Having the backup of getting creatures back from the grave as well as finding them in the library is a great safety net and redundancy.
Keep up the great work!
Ardeyn
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Thank you so much for the insightful reply, benjameenbear.
I'm really intrigued by where you have taken the list in your suggestion. It seems a lot more streamlined.
Also Vault of Catlacan hadn't crossed my mind as a (combo) option for the deck. In this regard, Azor's Gateway does seem like an option as well.
For our regular commander night this past week I had already taken out the Primeval Bounty for Blasphemous Act. Giving the rest of the deck another spin on its current iteration convinced me of your earlier ideas of how to improve the deck. I'll remove the lands package, adding a Bloom Tender, more Counterspells, and some cheaper rocks, to start with.
I actually like Kiora's Follower, despite not going infinite with the bracers. It's nice Ramp with all the stuff that produces two or three mana for tapping. Collective Restraint sure is a Meta call. It once again saved me during a game in our latest gaming night, where it re-directed some attacks of the Sidisi player. A weird game, I admit, as it ended with me cleaning up the table with Hellkite and Kraum beats.
Having had quite a number of mana dorks out, I figured, Benefactor's Draught might also be a good fit for the deck, as it can play the same role as Dramatic Reversal. What do you think?
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Thank you for the welcome and the helpful ideas, benjameenbear. I think, I know what I've gotten myself into here.
Since I currently only have access to my account from my phone, formatting is kind of a challenge, but I'll try and do my best.
You're right that I aim to produce infinite Mana, dump it into Thrasios and kill the table through one of the dragons or infinitely copying Lightning Bolt or Reality Shift with one of the guildmages.
The Hulk line looks interesting, albeit it's four slots that don't do anything on their own really and don't mesh with the rest of the deck as other pieces in this list do. I know Flash Hulk is quite efficient, yet I'd rather use those slots for more interaction.
Speaking of which, I'd love to add in some more counterspells. They're a good catch all. I'm not quite sure which ones and where to slot them in, though. Do you have any suggestions?
I really like Teferi for protection, though it's a bit expensive.
Spellseeker is more of an oversight than an intentional exclusion. I should probably ditch the Bounty for it. I'm not quite sure of Transmute Artifact in this list, though. There's not so many artifacts to sac into it.
I was also wondering if the small lands package (Blood Sun, Lotus Vale etc.) was worth running. I probably should just run Mana Crypt and Vault.
For more board control. From my experience, Blasphemous Act would be better than the 'quakes.
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Hello everybody,
I'm happy to find there's now a competitive section in the Commander Forums. Even though Ms playgroup is not quite cEDH level, there's quite some stuff going on that's far from casual, e.g. Armageddon, Combos galore etc. If everybody had access to the expensive pieces of fast mana this would escalate quickly.
We have Grenzo Doomsday, Baral Combo Control, Sidisi Flash Hulk Reanimator, Jhoira Eggs as well as Titania, Omnath, Windgrace, Gitrog and Najeela Midrange.
With this premise, I definitely need to be able to handle some creature centric decks.
Currently I'm working on Kraum & Thrasios with a focus on Infinite Mana Combos.
I'd really appreciate any help to make the deck as good as possible.
So in Combos there's
- Dramatic Reversal which combos with either Isochron Scepter or either of the Guild mages.
- Izzet Guildmage + Manamorphose + Training Grounds or Biomancer's Familiar or Illusionist's Bracers
- Nivix Guildmage + Turnabout or Time Spiral
- Palinchron or Basalt Monolith + Mana Reflection
- Rings of Bright hearth + Basalt Monolith or Aphetto Alchemist and any three Mana producing creature or artifact
So, what's good, what's bad about this list? Please let me know.
Really like what I see here.
I suppose your dislike for Knowledge Pool extends to Omen Machine as well?
Anyway, Delay is quite a hard counter with Lavinia and Release to the Wind becomes a really flexible answer.
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I'm currently brainstorming a very similar idea.
My ideas for win cons regarding her were:
1) Any Lich + Zombie Infestation + Confessor = number of zombies equal to half the number of cards remaining in your deck. For infinite zombies add one of the old Eldrazi Titans.
2) Any Lich + Skirge Familiar / Mind Over Matter + Faith of the Devoted = drain the table for twice the number of cards remaining in your library. Infinite with Eldrazi again.
3) Go infinite with Mirror of Fate, Varina's activated ability and a time warp variant.
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Depending on life totals, this won't work, since you are limited by the number of nonland permanents on the battlefield. Once you hit all of your opponents' nonlands you're required (mandatory trigger) to target your own when Woodfall Primus persists back - eventually destroying your altars.
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I do like the deck very much though. Grave Betrayal seems hilarious with Marchesa, you might want to try that.
Also, take a look at Dimir House Guard, which is a lot more flexible than Fleshwrither. It can find Sneak Attack as well as function as a sac outlet.
Any reason you don't play Demonic Tutor?
Ardeyn
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Nice to see someone else also appreciating the menage a trois of Nath, Glissa and Savra. I like what you've done here.
I play something very similar, though I haven't updated the list in a while.
Some thoughts:
With Glissa at the helm instead of Nath, I'd cut some of the (symmetrical) discard elements such as Cunning Lethemancer, Necrogen Mists and Bottomless Pit, since you won't profit as much as with Nath.
Having played my own Derevi Stax a couple of times now, I have come across some questions. Since you have quite some experience and valuable insights and your deck seems rather similar to mine, though with a few less creatures, I figured I'd just ask:
Why do you play Oblivion Stone? I understand it works even under Gaddock Teeg and is a nuclear catch-all answer. It's still rather expensive to use and it seems there's plenty of situations, where you won't want to get rid of all permanents. Has this been a good choice? I opted to have Supreme Verdict and Austere Command, despite the Teeg.
What's your opinion on Retribution of the Meek? I've ran into quite a number of situations where it would have been a blowout. Being able to answer a full board without losing much yourself sounds great! And I seem to have problems controlling a full table with just the Stax elements and (small) creatures. So much so, that I'm thinking about adding Windborn Muse.
Do you find, you have enough creatures in your list? And how well has the DEN-combo worked out for you? What do you usually do with the infinite mana?
I have included Saffi Eriksdotter and Fiend Hunter to combo with Sun Titan, using Blasting Station as a sacrifice outlet. Also Adarkar Valkyrie with Derevi and Blasting Station wins the game quite well. All these pieces are quite reasonable on their own. Though it seems rather hard to assemble with my card draw not staying on the board for long usually.
Any thoughts on this?
How's a typical game going for you? Two nights ago I had to grind out a win with just Derevi and Elesh Norn under a Stasis Lock against Talrand, Jarad and Marath, which was grueling.
Ardeyn
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From my own experience the hard part is definitely the damage dealing.
However, sometimes it does work:
T1: Land, Sol Ring, Talisman of Indulgence, Viscera Seer or another one drop
T2: attack for 1, Shadowblood Ridge so you can filter the Sol Ring Mana, Rakdos, LoR
This is definitely a Godhand but it happens.
Generally lands that filter your mana or fix it in other ways are your best friends, e.g. Shadowblood Ridge, Graven Cairns, Urborg ToY.
Also, you need(!) some cheap (evasive) dudes.
Ardeyn
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Removed:
- Blood Sun
- Ramunap Excavator
- Amulet of Vigor
- Lotus Vale and Scorched Ruins
Added:
- Bloom Tender
- Telling Time
- Force of Will
- 2 Basics
Really like where the deck is going, though I need some more ways to get to the combo(s) faster.
The card draw/selection is not quite where I want it to be.
Regarding Benefactor's Draught: I removed Crop Rotation for it. It's been quite good in the couple of test games I played with it. Ranging from being a cantripping Ritual to outright going Infinite with Izzet Guildmage and a couple of mana dorks.
Well, since it can find creatures of any color, including Sage of Hours it is better than Zenith, in my opinion.
With it I had opponents counter the Sage only to bring it right back.
Also, for finding Sage, it's cheaper than Pod.
So, I'm a huge fan.
Have you considered Finale of Devastation? For me, it's been better than Birthing Pod. Having the backup of getting creatures back from the grave as well as finding them in the library is a great safety net and redundancy.
Keep up the great work!
Ardeyn
I'm really intrigued by where you have taken the list in your suggestion. It seems a lot more streamlined.
Also Vault of Catlacan hadn't crossed my mind as a (combo) option for the deck. In this regard, Azor's Gateway does seem like an option as well.
For our regular commander night this past week I had already taken out the Primeval Bounty for Blasphemous Act. Giving the rest of the deck another spin on its current iteration convinced me of your earlier ideas of how to improve the deck. I'll remove the lands package, adding a Bloom Tender, more Counterspells, and some cheaper rocks, to start with.
I actually like Kiora's Follower, despite not going infinite with the bracers. It's nice Ramp with all the stuff that produces two or three mana for tapping.
Collective Restraint sure is a Meta call. It once again saved me during a game in our latest gaming night, where it re-directed some attacks of the Sidisi player. A weird game, I admit, as it ended with me cleaning up the table with Hellkite and Kraum beats.
Having had quite a number of mana dorks out, I figured, Benefactor's Draught might also be a good fit for the deck, as it can play the same role as Dramatic Reversal. What do you think?
Since I currently only have access to my account from my phone, formatting is kind of a challenge, but I'll try and do my best.
You're right that I aim to produce infinite Mana, dump it into Thrasios and kill the table through one of the dragons or infinitely copying Lightning Bolt or Reality Shift with one of the guildmages.
The Hulk line looks interesting, albeit it's four slots that don't do anything on their own really and don't mesh with the rest of the deck as other pieces in this list do. I know Flash Hulk is quite efficient, yet I'd rather use those slots for more interaction.
Speaking of which, I'd love to add in some more counterspells. They're a good catch all. I'm not quite sure which ones and where to slot them in, though. Do you have any suggestions?
I really like Teferi for protection, though it's a bit expensive.
Spellseeker is more of an oversight than an intentional exclusion. I should probably ditch the Bounty for it. I'm not quite sure of Transmute Artifact in this list, though. There's not so many artifacts to sac into it.
I was also wondering if the small lands package (Blood Sun, Lotus Vale etc.) was worth running. I probably should just run Mana Crypt and Vault.
For more board control. From my experience, Blasphemous Act would be better than the 'quakes.
I'm happy to find there's now a competitive section in the Commander Forums. Even though Ms playgroup is not quite cEDH level, there's quite some stuff going on that's far from casual, e.g. Armageddon, Combos galore etc. If everybody had access to the expensive pieces of fast mana this would escalate quickly.
We have Grenzo Doomsday, Baral Combo Control, Sidisi Flash Hulk Reanimator, Jhoira Eggs as well as Titania, Omnath, Windgrace, Gitrog and Najeela Midrange.
With this premise, I definitely need to be able to handle some creature centric decks.
Currently I'm working on Kraum & Thrasios with a focus on Infinite Mana Combos.
I'd really appreciate any help to make the deck as good as possible.
1 Thrasios, Triton Hero
1 Kraum, Ludevic's Opus
Mana:16
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Incubation Druid
1 Rattleclaw Mystic
1 Sylvan Caryatid
1 Sol Ring
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Gruul Signet
1 Izzet Signet
1 Manamorphose
1 Nature's Lore
1 Simic Signet
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Turnabout
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Mana Reflection
Untaps:2
1 Aphetto Alchemist
1 Kiora's Follower
Cost Reduction:3
1 Biomancer's Familiar
1 Training Grounds
1 Illusionist's Bracers
Combo Pieces:6
1 Izzet Guildmage
1 Nivix Guildmage
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Dramatic Reversal
1 Rings of Brighthearth
1 Palinchron
Utility:10
1 Amulet of Vigor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Izzet Charm
1 Regrowth
1 Blood Sun
1 Collective Restraint
1 Primeval Bounty
1 Trinket Mage
1 Crop Rotation
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Long-Term Plans
Interaction:11
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Nature's Claim
1 Rapid Hybridization
1 Arcane Denial
1 Counterspell
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Reality Shift
1 Beast Within
1 Chaos Warp
Finishers/Removal:2
1 Skarrgan Hellkite
1 Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
Draw/Selection:7
1 Brainstorm
1 Magmatic Insight
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Growth Spiral
1 Time Spiral
Lands:35
1 Breeding Pool
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Cinder Glade
1 Command Tower
1 Deserted Temple
4 Forest
1 Temple of Mystery
1 Taiga
1 Hinterland Harbor
4 Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Lotus Vale
1 Magosi, the Waterveil
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Mountain
1 Temple of Epiphany
1 Rootbound Crag
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Scorched Ruins
1 Sheltered Thicket
1 Tropical Island
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Temple of Abandon
1 Tolaria West
1 Wooded Foothills
So in Combos there's
- Dramatic Reversal which combos with either Isochron Scepter or either of the Guild mages.
- Izzet Guildmage + Manamorphose + Training Grounds or Biomancer's Familiar or Illusionist's Bracers
- Nivix Guildmage + Turnabout or Time Spiral
- Palinchron or Basalt Monolith + Mana Reflection
- Rings of Bright hearth + Basalt Monolith or Aphetto Alchemist and any three Mana producing creature or artifact
So, what's good, what's bad about this list? Please let me know.
Thank you for reading.
Ardeyn
I suppose your dislike for Knowledge Pool extends to Omen Machine as well?
Anyway, Delay is quite a hard counter with Lavinia and Release to the Wind becomes a really flexible answer.
My ideas for win cons regarding her were:
1) Any Lich + Zombie Infestation + Confessor = number of zombies equal to half the number of cards remaining in your deck. For infinite zombies add one of the old Eldrazi Titans.
2) Any Lich + Skirge Familiar / Mind Over Matter + Faith of the Devoted = drain the table for twice the number of cards remaining in your library. Infinite with Eldrazi again.
3) Go infinite with Mirror of Fate, Varina's activated ability and a time warp variant.
Depending on life totals, this won't work, since you are limited by the number of nonland permanents on the battlefield. Once you hit all of your opponents' nonlands you're required (mandatory trigger) to target your own when Woodfall Primus persists back - eventually destroying your altars.
I do like the deck very much though. Grave Betrayal seems hilarious with Marchesa, you might want to try that.
Also, take a look at Dimir House Guard, which is a lot more flexible than Fleshwrither. It can find Sneak Attack as well as function as a sac outlet.
Any reason you don't play Demonic Tutor?
Ardeyn
I play something very similar, though I haven't updated the list in a while.
Some thoughts:
With Glissa at the helm instead of Nath, I'd cut some of the (symmetrical) discard elements such as Cunning Lethemancer, Necrogen Mists and Bottomless Pit, since you won't profit as much as with Nath.
Spine of Ish Sah is horrendously expensive, when running stax. How has it worked out for you? I'd rather have Maelstrom Pulse and Putrefy in the list.
Is Seedborn Muse worth it? It sure breaks the orbs in your favor, but you won't be able to maximize it with basically no instants.
Do you really need Salvaging Station? It seems redundant with your general.
Some cards I feel are sorely missing:
Diabolic Intent - great tutor in a token heavy deck
Volrath's Stronghold - recursion on a land
Vorinclex - less mana for them, more for you
Sheoldred - they sacrifice you reanimate
Reassembling Skeleton - works so well with all the abyss-like effects
Garruk Wildspeaker - untapping your lands is great with orbs out
Skullclamp - best draw with tokens
Contamination - another great resource denial effect
Bitterblossom - more tokens
Death Cloud- hands down the best card in a deck like this
Hope this helps. If you're interested in my list for some inspiration, look at the link in my signature.
Ardeyn
Why do you play Oblivion Stone? I understand it works even under Gaddock Teeg and is a nuclear catch-all answer. It's still rather expensive to use and it seems there's plenty of situations, where you won't want to get rid of all permanents. Has this been a good choice? I opted to have Supreme Verdict and Austere Command, despite the Teeg.
What's your opinion on Retribution of the Meek? I've ran into quite a number of situations where it would have been a blowout. Being able to answer a full board without losing much yourself sounds great! And I seem to have problems controlling a full table with just the Stax elements and (small) creatures. So much so, that I'm thinking about adding Windborn Muse.
Do you find, you have enough creatures in your list? And how well has the DEN-combo worked out for you? What do you usually do with the infinite mana?
I have included Saffi Eriksdotter and Fiend Hunter to combo with Sun Titan, using Blasting Station as a sacrifice outlet. Also Adarkar Valkyrie with Derevi and Blasting Station wins the game quite well. All these pieces are quite reasonable on their own. Though it seems rather hard to assemble with my card draw not staying on the board for long usually.
Any thoughts on this?
How's a typical game going for you? Two nights ago I had to grind out a win with just Derevi and Elesh Norn under a Stasis Lock against Talrand, Jarad and Marath, which was grueling.
Ardeyn
However, sometimes it does work:
T1: Land, Sol Ring, Talisman of Indulgence, Viscera Seer or another one drop
T2: attack for 1, Shadowblood Ridge so you can filter the Sol Ring Mana, Rakdos, LoR
This is definitely a Godhand but it happens.
Generally lands that filter your mana or fix it in other ways are your best friends, e.g. Shadowblood Ridge, Graven Cairns, Urborg ToY.
Also, you need(!) some cheap (evasive) dudes.
Ardeyn
Play Mana Crypt --> 2 --> Play Mana Vault --> 4
Play Krark-Clan Ironworks, sacrifice Mana Crypt and Mana Vault --> 4
Play Basalt Monolith and tap for mana --> 4
Play Rings of Brighthearth --> 1
Play Sol Ring and tap for mana --> 2
Sacrifice Sol Ring and Krark-Clan Ironworks --> 6
Untap Basalt Monolith and copy the ability tapping in between resolutions for mana --> Infinite Colorless Mana
Play Gemstone Array --> you now have Infinite Colored Mana
Play your General and mill everyone out, they'll die in their next draw step.
And here's how it works as turn 0 kill:
With Leyline of Anticipation in play
Mana Crypt --> 2
Grim Monolith --> 3
Mox Opal --> 3U
Lotus Petal --> 3UU
Power Artifact on Grim Monolith --> 3
Untap Grim Monolith for 2 tap for 3 and repeat ad infinitum --> infinite colorless mana
Play Gemstone Array to filter the Mana to U
then play Oona, Queen of the Fey from the Command Zone and proceed to mill everyone out.
Ardeyn
Ardeyn