pretty much yeah
although there is clearly some difference, vexing devil, death's shadow and ghor-clan rampager (is it played in jund?)
But the question is quite honest. What is the benefit to add this mini combo into jund ? is it stronger (no) ? more stable (no) ? does it answer a metagame situation (no)?
Please no more talk about bad cards. No sleepy dragons, no only-playable-in-burn devils, no 15 mana costing cards.
Well this is still a forum and anyone is free to provide any feedback. With that being said:
No sleepy dragons: I agree this one is too far fetched but cute.
no 15 mana costing cards: for sure no emrakul.
no only-playable-in-burn devils: here I tend to disagree with you and believe me I usually hate this kind of card BUT Vexing devil fits 3 purposes. He is good at doing 4 damage (because we are a deck that must be relatively aggressive), he is good on the board as 4/3 is still good, he is good in the graveyard when Varolz is here. BUT for me the issue is that we are adding a 3rd color.
then, like most of you i realised that grim lavamancer was not incredible and izzet charm was too costly so i reduced the number by 2 and got this new list
what i realised also is that what is important is to have as many low cost spell as possible (also to make snapcaster efficient) and that was one of the reason also izzet charm was not incredible and grim lavamancer the same (activate each turn)
Now my question
a) what about vexing devil ? i'm usually the firts one to cry out loud that a spell that give your opponnent choice is bad.... yes it is bad BUT it cost R just R and this is reason why i'm reconisdering it. Has anyone tested it ? i beleive usualy pure burn list use it
b) what blue spell? Ok this is the strange part, since we are playing blue we should take advanatage of some of the blue spell. Blue is good at bouncing and counterspell. i believe i want to stay with my 2 spell pierce + 2 izzet charm for now, in order to have control on some match up. those are rarely dead spell and can help game 1 against most of decks.
What are our worst best matchup ? (i have only played around 15 games to date)
Where do you see our main weakness, strength ?
a 4/5 stepp lynx with double strike = 8 damage
a 4/5 stepp lynx + a 4 damage burn spell later on = 8 damages also
the double strik part is bad (it's equivalent to first strike in terms of usability)
the combination of indestructible + 4 damage for 2 mana in instant .. wow. it's basically a 4 dmaage burn spell with a bonus effect in case you need it
Some "fun" fact about some cards that i have played in a very very similar deck:
Deadeye Navigator whenever i have played him one of the following situation appeared:
- there is no other creature on the side of my board
- everyone understand very easily what is going on and you become instantly the archenemy and die in one turn...
- the combo is cute (very cute) but it will never replace a consecrated sphynx for example. this is the difference in "raw power" and "cute power"
So as oyu can see I have never been so frustarted with that card. it looked so great on paper but it was quite disappointing in the end. Maybe you will have more luck
on another note: Angel of serenity. OH MY COMMANDER ! this card is just totally incredbile (a bit $$ pricy those days). I tested it and since that day it has entered my unofficial "best EDH card list ever". Wow, it does EVERYTHING: it let you get back some creature from your grave, remove some creature from opponnent grave, remove some creature before an attack step, get back some ETB effect creature ... it is combo with all your card in your deck (except restoration angel :)). do you still play sundial of the infinite? it's also damn good with it. i loved Angel of Sernity so much that it has already been upgraded in foil version.
here is a fun play that happend once:
- my opp get crazy with my angel of serenity that utlimately, after several attempt, is sent to the graveyard
-2 turn later an opp play body double, taking my angel of serenity for what he tought to be a strong move...
- ..but that was a very bad play since i copied it with phantasmal image, and got back my angel in my hand and was able to make all my opp getting crazy again
good fun
Divine reckoning is exactly the kind of card i don't like here:
If your are winning you MAY win more, provided that you can have your creatures indestrcutible or regenerated, if your are losing you are still in a bad situation. --> replaced by wrath of god
Rings of Brighthearth is another card that i don't like (well i LOVE the card but defenitevley not in this pack): if you have anima activated you can win more if you don't have you have just few cute combo, but nothing amazing (fetch land, top, ... ) --> replaced by academy rector
Defense of the Heart: i had this card in hand but nobody had any creature on the board and even during the game we reached only once the situation that someone had 3 creatures... well my judgement can be biaised of course by this game but i will try to put call of the wild and see how it goes, with top, scroll rack, 2 tutors and possibly sylvan library + random luck i guess i have a chance to use it...we will see
First let me congratulate you for your great primer. it's very complete and you give very good direction to build the deck and i think this should be the role of the primer.
As I wanted to build a new commander (hopefully the 4th permanant one) I decided to do a close to copy paste to your list and tried it this week-end.
I had already some apprehension on the deck:
- lack of control cards (all my other deck are usually control based aka i decide when everthing should disappear on the table)
- lack of card advantage (you get quickly quickly out of card in your hand and this is sadly the problem of most of the non-blue or non-black deck)
- Too much oriented around the general to my taste (a lof ot card are win more with the general and do not enough without)
- not enough basic land. that's the change i made upfront. Green has the best acceleration with cultivate and kodoma's reach and usually there is no mana issue with so much fetch land.
- Contested cliff: you rely a lot on this strategy and it force you to play suboptimal spell (well that's my impression) but the problem i have been facing with land oriented startegy is that once people know they hate it verrrry easily (cabal coffer is another example, people know they have to destroy it NOW). So when it's not an option anymore your are a bit stucked.
I hope i don't sound too negative because that's not my goal. My goal is just to have a review as a first time tester, compare to my playstyle and my play group and give my impression. Moreover my experience is 2 games only so take it as it is
game 1: Anima got killed, then countered and then exiled and then when i was finnally able to play and activate it.. i got a miss !!! ....well you got the point not the best convincing start :).
game 2: player a and b have 0 card in hand and nothing of relevance in play, i have 0 card in hand, player c has 4 cards, drawn engine on the table, 21 life, tapped out but a played llanor elf. it's my turn, I have nothnig on the table but mana relfection and where ancients tread. draw step: Hello you tooth and nail --> let's get whatever card with 5 power (gisela is exiled) and eternal witness , let's play again tooth and nail to get Stalking Vengeance and Scourge of Kher Ridges. so 15 damages of come into play effect, activate Scourge of Kher Ridges with my last mana left, it does kill my eternal witness and his llanowar elf (he takes 2), attack with Stalking Vengeance for lethal... I was at 1 life...:rolleyes: that's a much better convincing start
Anyway, i will update the list to my preference and hopefully it will become a permanant list. Thanks again for the primer
T2 pack rat. Won a couple of games with that being the only spell I cast.
this, not close.
This card is completely stupid (no tap condition ???) most of the removal (if you are lucky to have one) cost 3. if oponenent start and play it turn 2, you cannot win.
Hey DrewM,
I believe i have saw your list in one of the daily and i was glad to see that boros is not dead and i want to give it a re-try with this metagame shift
Can you explain some of your choices. I stop looking at boros at the time where this deck list was the standard one:
As far as I remember, searing blaze was our "card advatage": kill creature + damage, of course it's not always an all star but when it worked it was quite devastating. chandra's phoenix was cute but not really more exiting than that. I don't recall to have taken it back many times in my hand. that would be an easy cut i believe.
I see that you play thalia, which undoubtly a good card but it's legenedray in a deck that tries to play all its card as soon as possible. it's only 2/1 for a deck that tries to put as much damage as possible as early as possible. can block some your spells also... what has been your thought on her? is it the new MVP
Other cards that could be in the list: flames of the blood hand, pillar of flames. what about silver blade paladin, mirran crusader.
I like the brimestone volley, mog fanatic semi combo
The reason I like boros is that it's not a pure all in deck, you have to make some (not always so obvious) choices. it can provide you some free win, and because we play red & white we have the best sideboard option of the format.
Coming back to your question for sideobard here are my comments:
Affinity: is bonefire really that good against them ? the have land, ravager, "equipement" that can dodge this.
Tron: you have this akward choice when you enter molten rain but keep goblin guide. Not sure what's the best choice here anway.
i would love to have volcanic fallout in the sidboard, especially against UWR
The reason I'm not playing this deck is specifically cards like Sowing Salts
i would not put this as a reason not to play the deck.
first only a few players and a few deck put ONE sowing salt in their sideboard.
Second, it arrives turn 4 or turn 3 if they are quick (which can happen). you are supposed to have the tron on turn 3. this can of course be a problem if you are on the draw.
Get one land destroyed early is already a problem even though it does not eliminate us right away it makes thing quite complicated.
When I played GP turin i had some people playing fulminator mage and then surgical extraction on the destroyed non-basic land (good for me i kept my relic of progenitus to target the destroyed land in my graveyard).
In short: if someone wants to beat Tron he can and there is not much you can do about it except to draw better and faster.
the UWR delver match up is very hard, since they put you a lot of pressure early (altough you have pyroclasme to help) and have motlen rain in the sideboard...oh and snapcaster+molten rain is unfair....
Favorite Playstyle:
-Control: I believe i'm a bad pure control player. the reason is that i'm not able to efficiently build a plan to win. i just counter stuff and hope i did the right thing...
-Combo: i had most success with combo deck so far. the plan is easy to understand and to achieve, the only drawback is the hate you can get depending on the current meta.
-mid range: can be a good choice for long tournament, but you don't have a real good match up (and not a lot of bad one either) and i believe in a big tournament you need to have some "easy" game.
-Aggro: Too much of all in for me. can be hated easily
-tempo: tempo is cool... when it's working How Competitive: GP/PTQ: Favorite Cards/Colors: reveillark, Budget: no limit Staples Owned: all
So i'm looking for a deck that :
- is not relying on a perfect draw all the time. i felt some deck rely too much on those draw to perform well.
- has some interaction the first few turn (=some early real decision)
- Can reward good play
- must be tier 1 (1.5 max)
i see bloodghast purely as an enabler in this deck, and normally that would ring alarm bells (i.e. doesn't it do anything by itself?) but in all seriousness it's SO good as an enabler, i can't NOT run it.
Well, you are speaking of a different deck, different color, different pod chain with all the pro and cons that it implies. Birthing pod decks have mannnnnny varients because the card itself is so good.
The way you describe your deck is more a midrange good stuff pod deck than a pure combo pod deck which we are discussing here
Hey. This deck has been interesting me lately and I was wondering... How do you get the kiki-jiki out? Hope to draw into him or chord? I just don't see any 5 drops... Unless I'm being blind.
answer d: all of the above
with pod: 4cc creature: 4 angel, 1 redcap, 1 linvala
and obviously with chord of calling: "8" mana and with normal mana: 5 mana (3 red is the potential diffcult part)
it changes all the time, you just need to be aware of all the possibility.
Wow, I thought that ghoslty prison will be an issue but you just demosntrate there are 2 way to go around it quite efficently.
Therfore I guess the only card really affecting us is torptor orb (yes we have quasali pridemage)
How fast do you usually combo of ?
one thing i liked with melira pod was that you could go off quite early since your key card have a cc of 1 2 or 3 and not 5 like this deck.
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pretty much yeah
although there is clearly some difference, vexing devil, death's shadow and ghor-clan rampager (is it played in jund?)
But the question is quite honest. What is the benefit to add this mini combo into jund ? is it stronger (no) ? more stable (no) ? does it answer a metagame situation (no)?
Well this is still a forum and anyone is free to provide any feedback. With that being said:
No sleepy dragons: I agree this one is too far fetched but cute.
no 15 mana costing cards: for sure no emrakul.
no only-playable-in-burn devils: here I tend to disagree with you and believe me I usually hate this kind of card BUT Vexing devil fits 3 purposes. He is good at doing 4 damage (because we are a deck that must be relatively aggressive), he is good on the board as 4/3 is still good, he is good in the graveyard when Varolz is here. BUT for me the issue is that we are adding a 3rd color.
2 lists I would test: BG list
4 death's sahdow
4 dark confident
4 tarmogoyf
4 putrid leech
4 thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of kozliek
2 profane command
3 abrupt decay
3 Varolz
3 liliana
RBG list:
4 death's sahdow
4 vexing devil
4 tarmogoyf
2 putrid leech
4 dark confident
4 bolt
3 Varolz
4 ghor-clan rampager
What do you think ?
As someone mention Varolz must be part of a combo but the deck should survive without it. That means that other cards must be "ok to good".
Here is what I have in mind:
+ man-land such as
treetop village (trample)
maybe 2 blinkmoth nexus
If it helps, Mayor was on a BUG infect
here is the list i have started with:
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Lightning Bolt
4 burst lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Searing Blaze
4 izzet charm
then, like most of you i realised that grim lavamancer was not incredible and izzet charm was too costly so i reduced the number by 2 and got this new list
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Lightning Bolt
4 burst lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Searing Blaze
2 izzet charm
2 spell pierce
2 other spell (pillar of flames, magmat jet, vapor snag)
what i realised also is that what is important is to have as many low cost spell as possible (also to make snapcaster efficient) and that was one of the reason also izzet charm was not incredible and grim lavamancer the same (activate each turn)
Now my question
a) what about vexing devil ? i'm usually the firts one to cry out loud that a spell that give your opponnent choice is bad.... yes it is bad BUT it cost R just R and this is reason why i'm reconisdering it. Has anyone tested it ? i beleive usualy pure burn list use it
b) what blue spell? Ok this is the strange part, since we are playing blue we should take advanatage of some of the blue spell. Blue is good at bouncing and counterspell. i believe i want to stay with my 2 spell pierce + 2 izzet charm for now, in order to have control on some match up. those are rarely dead spell and can help game 1 against most of decks.
What are our worst best matchup ? (i have only played around 15 games to date)
Where do you see our main weakness, strength ?
a 4/5 stepp lynx + a 4 damage burn spell later on = 8 damages also
the double strik part is bad (it's equivalent to first strike in terms of usability)
the combination of indestructible + 4 damage for 2 mana in instant .. wow. it's basically a 4 dmaage burn spell with a bonus effect in case you need it
Deadeye Navigator whenever i have played him one of the following situation appeared:
- there is no other creature on the side of my board
- everyone understand very easily what is going on and you become instantly the archenemy and die in one turn...
- the combo is cute (very cute) but it will never replace a consecrated sphynx for example. this is the difference in "raw power" and "cute power"
So as oyu can see I have never been so frustarted with that card. it looked so great on paper but it was quite disappointing in the end. Maybe you will have more luck
on another note:
Angel of serenity. OH MY COMMANDER ! this card is just totally incredbile (a bit $$ pricy those days). I tested it and since that day it has entered my unofficial "best EDH card list ever". Wow, it does EVERYTHING: it let you get back some creature from your grave, remove some creature from opponnent grave, remove some creature before an attack step, get back some ETB effect creature ... it is combo with all your card in your deck (except restoration angel :)). do you still play sundial of the infinite? it's also damn good with it. i loved Angel of Sernity so much that it has already been upgraded in foil version.
here is a fun play that happend once:
- my opp get crazy with my angel of serenity that utlimately, after several attempt, is sent to the graveyard
-2 turn later an opp play body double, taking my angel of serenity for what he tought to be a strong move...
- ..but that was a very bad play since i copied it with phantasmal image, and got back my angel in my hand and was able to make all my opp getting crazy again
good fun
If your are winning you MAY win more, provided that you can have your creatures indestrcutible or regenerated, if your are losing you are still in a bad situation. --> replaced by wrath of god
Rings of Brighthearth is another card that i don't like (well i LOVE the card but defenitevley not in this pack): if you have anima activated you can win more if you don't have you have just few cute combo, but nothing amazing (fetch land, top, ... ) --> replaced by academy rector
Defense of the Heart: i had this card in hand but nobody had any creature on the board and even during the game we reached only once the situation that someone had 3 creatures... well my judgement can be biaised of course by this game but i will try to put call of the wild and see how it goes, with top, scroll rack, 2 tutors and possibly sylvan library + random luck i guess i have a chance to use it...we will see
As I wanted to build a new commander (hopefully the 4th permanant one) I decided to do a close to copy paste to your list and tried it this week-end.
I had already some apprehension on the deck:
- lack of control cards (all my other deck are usually control based aka i decide when everthing should disappear on the table)
- lack of card advantage (you get quickly quickly out of card in your hand and this is sadly the problem of most of the non-blue or non-black deck)
- Too much oriented around the general to my taste (a lof ot card are win more with the general and do not enough without)
- not enough basic land. that's the change i made upfront. Green has the best acceleration with cultivate and kodoma's reach and usually there is no mana issue with so much fetch land.
- Contested cliff: you rely a lot on this strategy and it force you to play suboptimal spell (well that's my impression) but the problem i have been facing with land oriented startegy is that once people know they hate it verrrry easily (cabal coffer is another example, people know they have to destroy it NOW). So when it's not an option anymore your are a bit stucked.
I hope i don't sound too negative because that's not my goal. My goal is just to have a review as a first time tester, compare to my playstyle and my play group and give my impression. Moreover my experience is 2 games only so take it as it is
game 1: Anima got killed, then countered and then exiled and then when i was finnally able to play and activate it.. i got a miss !!! ....well you got the point not the best convincing start :).
game 2: player a and b have 0 card in hand and nothing of relevance in play, i have 0 card in hand, player c has 4 cards, drawn engine on the table, 21 life, tapped out but a played llanor elf. it's my turn, I have nothnig on the table but mana relfection and where ancients tread. draw step: Hello you tooth and nail --> let's get whatever card with 5 power (gisela is exiled) and eternal witness , let's play again tooth and nail to get Stalking Vengeance and Scourge of Kher Ridges. so 15 damages of come into play effect, activate Scourge of Kher Ridges with my last mana left, it does kill my eternal witness and his llanowar elf (he takes 2), attack with Stalking Vengeance for lethal... I was at 1 life...:rolleyes: that's a much better convincing start
Anyway, i will update the list to my preference and hopefully it will become a permanant list. Thanks again for the primer
++
Aior
this, not close.
This card is completely stupid (no tap condition ???) most of the removal (if you are lucky to have one) cost 3. if oponenent start and play it turn 2, you cannot win.
I believe i have saw your list in one of the daily and i was glad to see that boros is not dead and i want to give it a re-try with this metagame shift
Can you explain some of your choices. I stop looking at boros at the time where this deck list was the standard one:
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Mountain
4 Marsh Flats
2 Boros Garrison
2 Plains
2 Sacred Foundry
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Plated Geopede
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Figure of Destiny
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Helix
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Searing Blaze
looking at the difference there is:
As far as I remember, searing blaze was our "card advatage": kill creature + damage, of course it's not always an all star but when it worked it was quite devastating. chandra's phoenix was cute but not really more exiting than that. I don't recall to have taken it back many times in my hand. that would be an easy cut i believe.
I see that you play thalia, which undoubtly a good card but it's legenedray in a deck that tries to play all its card as soon as possible. it's only 2/1 for a deck that tries to put as much damage as possible as early as possible. can block some your spells also... what has been your thought on her? is it the new MVP
some other cards I have seen in decklists:
2 Brimstone Volley
4 Zektar Shrine Expedition
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Goblin Bushwhacker (+ranger)
Other cards that could be in the list:
flames of the blood hand, pillar of flames. what about silver blade paladin, mirran crusader.
I like the brimestone volley, mog fanatic semi combo
The reason I like boros is that it's not a pure all in deck, you have to make some (not always so obvious) choices. it can provide you some free win, and because we play red & white we have the best sideboard option of the format.
Coming back to your question for sideobard here are my comments:
Affinity: is bonefire really that good against them ? the have land, ravager, "equipement" that can dodge this.
Tron: you have this akward choice when you enter molten rain but keep goblin guide. Not sure what's the best choice here anway.
i would love to have volcanic fallout in the sidboard, especially against UWR
i would not put this as a reason not to play the deck.
first only a few players and a few deck put ONE sowing salt in their sideboard.
Second, it arrives turn 4 or turn 3 if they are quick (which can happen). you are supposed to have the tron on turn 3. this can of course be a problem if you are on the draw.
Get one land destroyed early is already a problem even though it does not eliminate us right away it makes thing quite complicated.
When I played GP turin i had some people playing fulminator mage and then surgical extraction on the destroyed non-basic land (good for me i kept my relic of progenitus to target the destroyed land in my graveyard).
In short: if someone wants to beat Tron he can and there is not much you can do about it except to draw better and faster.
the UWR delver match up is very hard, since they put you a lot of pressure early (altough you have pyroclasme to help) and have motlen rain in the sideboard...oh and snapcaster+molten rain is unfair....
Favorite Playstyle:
-Control: I believe i'm a bad pure control player. the reason is that i'm not able to efficiently build a plan to win. i just counter stuff and hope i did the right thing...
-Combo: i had most success with combo deck so far. the plan is easy to understand and to achieve, the only drawback is the hate you can get depending on the current meta.
-mid range: can be a good choice for long tournament, but you don't have a real good match up (and not a lot of bad one either) and i believe in a big tournament you need to have some "easy" game.
-Aggro: Too much of all in for me. can be hated easily
-tempo: tempo is cool... when it's working
How Competitive: GP/PTQ:
Favorite Cards/Colors: reveillark,
Budget: no limit
Staples Owned: all
So i'm looking for a deck that :
- is not relying on a perfect draw all the time. i felt some deck rely too much on those draw to perform well.
- has some interaction the first few turn (=some early real decision)
- Can reward good play
- must be tier 1 (1.5 max)
Good luck !
Well, you are speaking of a different deck, different color, different pod chain with all the pro and cons that it implies. Birthing pod decks have mannnnnny varients because the card itself is so good.
The way you describe your deck is more a midrange good stuff pod deck than a pure combo pod deck which we are discussing here
So back on topic
answer d: all of the above
with pod: 4cc creature: 4 angel, 1 redcap, 1 linvala
and obviously with chord of calling: "8" mana and with normal mana: 5 mana (3 red is the potential diffcult part)
it changes all the time, you just need to be aware of all the possibility.
Therfore I guess the only card really affecting us is torptor orb (yes we have quasali pridemage)
How fast do you usually combo of ?
one thing i liked with melira pod was that you could go off quite early since your key card have a cc of 1 2 or 3 and not 5 like this deck.