Oh, didn't realize it had that no more than creature's toughness thing. Meh. I'll prolly just keep it for a little bit... Once it costs me a game I'll go spend the 8 cents, lol. I was mostly just mildly concerned about green manas, but that hasn't been an issue yet, so I could definitely see making that swap sometime. I do like getting them to counter deadshot with that spare mana for songs. Wasn't aware other people played this deck. I'd been considering it for a while and saw someone else doing gnaw cantrips (your name looks familiar, but maybe that's just my imagination..) but didn't see the songs at any point. He did mention x spells so maybe he was just unlucky. He was playing pit keepers too, so maybe it was you. Or maybe this deck is just played more than I expected it to be ( which was not at all). I was playing sporemound/gladehart landfall, you'd probably remember it (it resembled a planeswalker deck with the random sideboard I was playing, heh).
Death denied might help against monoblack so they can't finish off your hand later on (eating the good ones), but typically you just draw into more cyclers and you want them in the bin. Most matchups you keep churning for a while without needing an infusion. Might toss one in the side just cuz. Not like I don't have room to test things.
Sooo yeah I finally put this together on mtgo. It hasn't been tested much really. I played against burn and elves only as of writing this, and those matchups seem nearly impossible to lose. Gnaw and evincars made me feel like I was being rude they were so unfair. Is there lifegain hate from burn at common level? Specifically good enough against gnaw? I might've still lost if half had been nullified, hard to say. Hmm.
Just what I initially tossed together. Cyclers themselves were pretty much 'hmm some of these and a few of those, yeah seems good' outside of the obvious includes. Wild dogs can hold off early if need be, especially if you can gnaw on upkeep if they don't trade him off. Typically cycling is better than hardcasting things. Rarely will a random dude kill someone I suspect. The primary gameplan is to cycle, cycle, cycle some more, gnaw to the bone or evincar's justice, cycle cyclecycleyclylclycle songs of the damned songs of the damned drain life you. You often get a fair deal of lands out, so multiples of drain life can just be shot at their face to make it a bit easier. If they gain a lot of life you might need to cast a couple guys at some point. Or just stall longer. Lands are just mashed together, but they seem fine so far. Might be tweaked. I could also see just putting justice in main, but I'll wait to make that decision til I play some more.
Like I said I haven't played it a ton, but it worked as advertised in those matches. Maybe a little more bad feeling because those matchups weren't fair. Cycling so many times means you're going to draw into your real cards, and hopefully those are good enough to hold you over. I'm using justice obviously, but crypt rats would be good also. One rats cost more than like my entire deck (well than it cost me, i got a few street wraiths and some other crap for free). It counts as a creature and can nuke for a lot which can be a secondary finisher with gnaws, but justice is fine. Can't be killed or bounced and comes out early enough. Can be boughtback. *shrug*
I dunno how it performs against delver or mbc. I've just been playing in the for fun room (haven't seen pauper games elsewhere really, and even there there's only like one at a time.. hopefully people come play). Sometime I'll get matched up against them though and find out. Delver seems like it might be hard. Mbc might nuke your hand too far, though a lot of the time you have spare lands you can bear to lose. Any good sideboard cards for delver/mbc? My board is just random stuff I had at the moment (so basically starter kit stuff). Maybe a couple grave scrabblers? Delver might just counter anything that matters. You can gnaw if they tap out but that's not really their plan ever, and while damns are instants, drains aren't.
It's kinda slow, but you're always doing something. That something being cycling. I maybe should've played my guys more often as guys, but I feel like drawing is better if you aren't under too much pressure. More playtesting should tell. Disciples obviously have applications against white decks. Wraiths can get in against swamps. It's grindy, but ideally you can bypass nightmarish board stall combat. Cuz combat is pretty simple. They attack, you take damage. Removal cards are basically mulligans against the deck, which is nice.
This deck was just something I tossed together while goldfishing brews in cockatrice a while back (and that's where dredgelon comes from, I just mashed words together for a save file), but recently it inspired me to get an mtgo account (skjall1992 showed interest, thus renewing my own, and we traded messages here about the deck- I think he's since added red for faithless looting (and other things), but mine for now is my original concept). It cost me 3ish tix for the entire thing from scratch (my sideboard is in a very primitive state atm). I've been playing it on the for fun section; I was concerned my 2 evolving wilds would just draw quits, plus I'm very new to the program anyway (which has its quirks).
How It Works
There are two primary win conditions here. Lotleth troll and zombie infestation. You can use commune with the gods to find either or grisly salvage to find troll or more gas (or a land if desperate). Infestation will grow you an army of 2/2s over time to swarm over. Troll will give you a very fast clock that has regen and after a turn a sizable butt. Once you get your threat down, you can chain cast shambling shell every turn. Use him to block and or put a +1/+1 counter down, then dredge more fuel into the yard to bring back next turn. Example- turn 2 lotleth troll, turn 3 discard 2 eidolons, play shell, discard eidolons again, sac shell, attack for 7. Next turn, dredge, mill another eidolon, play shell, recur 3 eidolons and discard them all, swing for a potential of 11. That's a pretty solid start, but I've had even better ones as well.
Eidolons are slightly better than squee once your engine is going (you get freshly milled eidolons when you cast shell versus having to wait an upkeep, and you also can get them back twice in one turn though that isn't not common). Squee is gas without gold spells. Typically you have a gold spell or two and can dig into a shell, but a mixture seems good in case shell gets taken from your yard (don't let them exile it from play, remember to sac it). Grisly salvage can be used at instant speed to empty your yard, either for more pump or to protect your eidolons (if not your poor shell). You lose the fresh mill, but hey what can you do.
The decision points are what to play versus what to discard (especially with infestation which can discard anything), waiting or not for regen up with troll, whether to dredge shell or not (if you want more mill and shell versus already having a gold card and preferring a draw step), which between troll and infestation given the option, whether or not to hardcast eidolons (typically bad, though if desperate and not under pressure... or they are at 1-2 life, here comes entropic eidolon!), whether to sac shell or not (watch for combat tricks, burn protection, blocking, not saccing for the extra attacker without summoning sickness, not needing to sac because you dredged another shell), plus the normal situational stuff. There's more to it than that (sideboards for example, how to play with and against- I don't have a ton of experience here but you don't have to autolose to hate), but the ideal game is straight forward. If everything goes perfectly you spend several turns doing the same thing, churning out zombies or fattening one up. Fortunately this is still fun! Huge resilient zombie trolls are neat, almost as neat as amassing a great hoard of zombies. Who doesn't love that?
Budget?
Very much so. I spent 3ish tix of my starting 5 putting this version together. I may use the rest in tweaking the sideboard, but that's still insanely cheap. In paper it's very cheap as well, as most cards are worth nothing. Squee is the only card worth anything iirc at about 1.50 each. If you want to keep it cheaper than a pack of sleeves, just play more eidolons. I don't think that's a sin. This is a huge selling point of the deck personally, but I really don't feel like I'm giving much up to budgetize it even. I'm going to be on the alert as far as mana issues and looking at budget options there, but it's playable as is. If nothing else it gives you some room to grow. If I make a paper version I may toss in lilianas (because they're laying around, not even sure if I want them mainboard though, at least side probably), my one abrupt (interaction, gold, instant, seems good...expensive :/), and whatever duals I have. So make sure you utilize your collection, there are things to consider adding.
I drafted up a new version on a whim the other day and went out got mtgo and bought it. This is a very straight forward list:
A) lands are not great. It doesn't ruin you too often, but use whatever duals you have. You want both colors turn 2 often, and almost always by 3 (infestation is black, but you need to be casting gold spells). I think a couple evolvings is okay. Maybe even 3 or 4. One in the opening is good. It lets you fix, and the deck has NO main deck 1 drops. No life loss even, heh. Plus I'm running drown in filths, so bonus (compared to guildgates)
B) Numbers could be tweaked. I may alter mine over time. Like I said I've just been playing in the for fun duels (and winning basically every match..not sure that's really enough to change rooms though- a number of the players haven't seemed great so far (and I'm rusty)) Drown in filth hasn't been insane, but I haven't had much pressure on me (the one aggressive start I played against had 3 goblin guides, but infestation ate them up and he stalled out pretty bad).
C) The sideboard. I had duresses from the starter kit. I had guiles from the starter kit (I think that's where I got them.. in any case skjall initially had them in for path though I'm not sure he kept them or we need them, mostly I had spare slots so why not test it. I wanted golgari charms for rest in peace/leyline (regen can be decent vs pyroclasm/anger, -1 for decks with lots of little guys, and of course it's an instant speed gold card so there are tricks there). Crypts for other gy decks. Decays would be great, but are expensive. I think I may go back and add something that kills creatures at instant speed. Preferably gold... If not, just like doom blades or something. Twin could be hard (not that I'm playing against top tier decks atm). Charm could luck out on mites, plus duress, but I definitely could still see some instant speed reactive spell in the board at least.
So yeah, that's my deck right now. It does cool things and I haven't seen anyone else using this engine prior, so yeah there's some pride there (winning with it feels great no matter what the competition is :P). Will it win you anything? Outside of fairly casual games? I have no idea; I actually don't have that much experience with it. But I've won most if not all of the handful of games/matches I've played so far (and often quite easily), and skjall sounded like he was enjoying it. So hey, if you wanna play modern but only have a grimy 5 dollar bill, here you go!
I've looked at many other options for decks similar to this, but this one has some sweet things going on (aka I've dug through a *****load of cards (anything with graveyard, discard, every gold spell... but you can easily overlook things or just miss something with your search terms, so feel free to contribute). If you have your own take on it, have suggestions, or just wanna say something, welcome!
Edit- Well, another idea. I was thinking about discard against us, and while I think you can dig for a second win condition if needed, treasured find might be worth consideration from the side. It can get back win conditions, it can be used to get back another gold spell (even another milled treasured find), it could even grab a third land (milled or reuse a wilds). It may find it's way into the deck for a little test. Also added two putrefy to board for now. Could use some creeping corrosions. Hmm.
I think it depends on what version you try. I'm not sure op's list can afford the sink. I'm not even sure if ninja fits in there (as I suggested earlier). Having those counters up after landing imposter is pretty important.
Is phyrexian soulgorger too cheese aggro? He can eat young wolf/strangleroot (ideally the root :P) and get basically a free hit in. With rancor he's going to do a fair deal. If you have a vines in hand it could even be worth eating two more if you have em and going for a big killing blow the turn after as well (assuming they're still alive). Maybe in a build with life's legacy? Baloth seems a bit more stable, but I'd be tempted to play at least a 1 of gorger to test him (looking again I wouldn't want to replace baloth probably, you don't want multiple gorgers and I like aspect of hydra versions, so he would have to really shine for me to up it). Then again I'm tempted to play a fog in any green deck just because it's funny.
It would certainly give you new god hands. T1 guy, t2 emissary emissary emissary convoke obelisk. If people play it someone will get that to work once.
Do you think the deck needs sleight of hand? It's not really card advantage, and costing 1 mana seems pretty bad for this deck. First turn you want to use that mana, second turn you want to keep 2 up, third turn another guy/reaction mana and that sort've thing. Paying for card selection seems kind've meh in a build like this. Has it been paying off?
How about the full 8 of 0 drop package? You need enough for early imposter, and an early ruse is best if you have oneb (if the game goes a few turns in spellstutter steps up for returns), but they are pretty weak outside of that. Memnite can get damage in with bounces if needed, but orni is a bit weak. I was also considering some blue white concoction with glint hawk and imposter for pressure, as I have some duals lying around. I don't have more than one or two paths though, and you definitely shift away from spellstuttering with that shift, which may be unwise.
I guess I'll toss in something about the topic.. It's a hard deck to absorb just looking at it. Seems a bit mana hungry from where I am. 2 for mage or 4 for flux, plus an undying, plus 2 mana each time (and ideally blocking something too, otherwise with mage you're just drawing a card, I could see using a sac outlet for additional value). Have you playtested it yet/what sort've decks are you expecting to play against (edit- okay, I see you say you haven't now :P)? Curious about how it plays out.
If you expect planeswalkers I could see hex parasite in the side. He's pretty good at reusing creatures, but without sac outlets you may not want him main, I dunno. Infinite trading/blockers for 1 mana activations, might be worth testing in main even.
Power conduit seems potentially juice as well. Not a creature, so can't beat but also dies less easily. Again, best with a sac outlet/enter triggers. Gives you infinite chumpers/traders again essentially, while charging up your non undyers. Block with young wolf, he dies, move counter from him to a gyre sage. Has some potential (if you only have undying guys you can put charge counters on itself, storing them for later). Thrull parasite can also remove counters, though it costs health (might not be so bad with the extort). Could use the black for sac outlets.
Have you considered like a green/black build? That's what I'd be tempted to try. Lose the guildmage and blue stuff, add hex parasite + power conduit maybe thrull and then add some sac outlets. You gain butcher ghoul, maybe mortician beetle, maybe something like spawning pit. Sac undyer for a counter onto pit, power conduit the +1 for another charge, make a 2/2 end up with a ready to go undying creature. Seems cool.
Maybe stuff like scarscale ritual (might fit in the blue version too, though you may not need the draw). Reset undying draw 2. Not sure what other sac outlet you would want, but there is a lot of stuff to consider and dig through. Just another potential take on the reusing undying theme. It takes a bit less mana once you're going (free sacs for more value, conduit is free, hex is only 1 if you pay life, plus is 1cmc himself) and has some really interesting synergies. Right now I feel like it's hard to get counters for flux and guildmage only draws a card for his time. Adding a sac outlet to get value seems good, and it opens you up to a color that is great for budget disruption (via removal/discard).
Having sac outlets gives you a lot of play. Prevents path from ruining you, gives you on the board tricks with all the pumping things and counters, and lets you get on demand power from your engines.
Yeah I'm with screwed. Festering goblins can be fine, but your only controlled outlets are two grenades. He can crimp your style. You really just can't go festering goblin into spike jester for example. If they kill festering you are boned. Also, more grenades seems good. I would definitely try to find replacements for archaeological dig too. Colorless mana is useless for a lot of your two drops, and saccing it turn two sets back your lord effects. It might be worth testing with just basics. If you can though, trading would be a good way to acquire some of the cheaper duals (hovels or dragonskull probably, both being about 2 dollars).
If you are straight up buying all these, I recommend checking for krenko's commands potentially in place of dragon fodder. Same exact card, slightly cheaper usually. Slight savings, but put those pennies in a jar for your duals :P. For example, channelfireball sells fodders at .49 and krenkos at .10. x4 and that's almost a hovel (obviously this is all pointless if you own fodders). You could also just add more and play 5-8 of the spells, maybe replacing wardriver just because of his double red.
Some burn wouldn't go amiss I suspect. Bolts if you have them, maybe pillar of flames if not. Or just some other instant speed one. Being able to nuke your own goblin token to save your witch could be okay. Nameless inversion is a goblin though I think that only matters in your deck with your hovels. Can get your guys through a blocker though (or if you stalled out and have lost of lords, pump). I think if you want to go all in you might want some of the 2 power 1 drops from the primer, replacing festering and maybe drums (though test those maybe, lords early could be worthwhile). If you want to be slightly more controlly (relying on big witches and removal and lording), maybe add some black removal, doom blades bone splinters tragic slip or even better ones that I can't think of.
Facevaulter lets you grow witch on demand, sac instead of paying echo, eat tokens, trigger festerings if you keep them. Earwig squad can figure out what's in their hand, potentially disrupt a combo not yet acquired, and is 5 power for 3 mana (worth or not I dunno). Warren weirding can clear the way or eat your own things to grow witch and set up for an alpha (is a goblin too for hovel or even like boggart birth rite/wort). And yeah, mad auntie is a .50 lord that can protect witches.
Have you tried that deck? How does it work? Just looking at it it seems like it shouldn't really work. 18 lands seems really low, even with a couple ramp spells. You need to reach 5 and when you do you, hitting 6 the turn after is good too. With 1 dictate and lets say 6 lands which seems hard, thats 12 mana, let's say you have a harvest and a spasm, 21, then untap 6, 25 total mana. Mill 22 in a very elaborate manner, assuming you get dictate, 6 lands, and 2 untappers, and your single blue suns. Do you reliably get more than 2?
I feel like you want to tap out most turns (ramp/mystic spec/telling time) and essentially combo out; I'm not sure I'm a big fan of leak+remand. Archaeomancer seems too slow for anything. Have you been playing with the deck/does it work/what sort've environment is it for?
@katthemad Well it gives you something to build toward which can be nice. Losing one or two turns basically seems pretty punishing for the deck though. I could see experimenting with other removal in spear's spot. Helixes if you have them (depending on how the mana plays out), maybe even pillar of flame (depending on how much you need that 1 damage vs losing a mana and eating undying/persist/hurting graveyard things). I like kird ape, but I've been on the fence about it in budget personally. Dual lands and fetches make it so much better. I was actually looking at monogreen stompy. You lose the flexible removal (though some people play a gw version so you could get journey/ring still), but get what looks like a faster more reliable budget deck in the same vein. Basically trading woolly thoctar for leatherback baloth, the 1 drops for experiment one plus the disruptive dryad guy, you get some undying guys and stuff. You rely instead on pump/prey upon fight effects/beast within rather than burn. Changes the feel maybe though, which is the biggest part of picking your deck. There's a primer pinned next to this thread though (you've possibly looked already, heh).
Eh, 40 bucks for 4 pieces of paper isn't cheap to everyone. Considering he brings up the price of bolts (which for commons are getting up there), calling guide expensive seems to make sense... This is the budget forum. They at least double the price of the deck, and while they are good, you can fill their spot. It gives you something to build toward.
Both burn and goblins are fairly straight forward, but the playstyle of burn can't hold my interest. Goblins have character (and you get to turn them into grenades). To each their own.
plains
is for a single card tag. There are also little icons for tagging in the posting options. Just select and click the right one. If your deck is crafted somewhere there may be a copy to clipboard option. Cockatrice lets you do that. You can just paste it straight into deck tags and it comes with separators (maybe?). It's handy.
You run corrupted resolve? I always liked that card, wasn't sure if it was good enough. I usually end up backing off infect plans though, just because no inkmoths is such a step down. It does give you somewhere to improve it later if you like the deck though (or just happen to have those around).
With L4D being suggested, I'll toss Killing Floor out there. They're a bit different, but ultimately I enjoy KF more. It's an older game and cheap. L4D will have you covering more ground and blasting mindlessly more, whereas in KF you need to be accurate and react to what is dealt to you (not to say l4d is mindless, but in combat I feel like I'm just shooting and meleeing nonstop like a machine, where in kf accuracy is rewarded in most cases (blaster style is possible below the highest difficulties still if you desire it though)). You're given a level and you have to survive waves. Basically survival mode from L4D, but KF features a class and leveling system, and a better variety in weapons (you can use any in any class, but there is a steep price drop for on perk weapons (ie flamethrower on a firebug)). You need to know how to defeat the different types of monsters, but there are easy/normal difficulties to lower you in gently.
One of the most important differences is that teamwork is spoonfed to you in L4D. You go out alone and get smokered or whatever, you die. You have no control once you're disabled. Teamwork is crucial to KF, but there's nothing forcing it like that. It's just that a variety of weaponry compliments each other; while one guy can clear the trash, he might need help on the fleshpound (but you aren't technically forced into that, a skilled player can kill FP with any weapon if he has enough room and time- so if you are the last surviving player you aren't entirely ****ed, there's an outside shot of you making it to the end of the round (when people come back)). KF scales from easy to hell as well per person from 1-6.
Neither are very dungeon-crawlery though... Path of Exile is basically a sequel to Diablo 2 (and free to play). Right now I personally play League of Legends and started some Battlefield 3 with some friends recently (was free to download a bit ago). Both are fun, encourage teamwork, and are more fun the more people you have.
By your description.. I'm tempted to suggest a MUD. Most are ***** (specifically color wise..) and are really hard to get into though. They're pretty dated and I doubt most people would be interested.. I'm past my mud-phase (though it lasted a long time while the one I played was around (tried a few others briefly but they just had nothing on the one that was shut down).
FPSes are really forgiving in that if you aren't always playing together it's less of a big deal. Sure you level up in bf3 and unlock stuff (weapons, accessories, gadgets, specializations), but the game doesn't take that into account and teams are just mixed experience players. Most games that have you trawling a dungeon for gear are gonna have you level up, which means unless you guys are always all together someone can get left behind (and usually leads to a *****load of characters and trying to keep track of which are with who).
I do like me some blistercoil weird. I was looking at weird + nettle sentinel + semblance anvil in some combination + sprout swarm. My first draft made it seem pretty bad, but seeing it do work elsewhere is interesting. I wonder how good the deck is. Some of the cantrips (serum visions or even sleight/probe) aren't very cheap, but there's probably some flex there. Lands ought to have some flex too, some weird make any color (basically use whatever you have). I wonder if crimson wisps is playable. There are already some meh cantrips, having a red one seems okay, plus if you are at 3 lands trying to draw into a weird, being able to play equip and give haste and start comboing on the spot seems pretty important.
10 lands? Jesus. I mean, obviously you don't want to fizzle on lands and only really need one.. interesting though.
On a different note, any budget options for making squadron hawk good? Be it something like lantern of insight (so you know if you want to shuffle) or equipment (bonesplitter? I have no swords :/). I really like stormscape familiar and squadron hawk. No dual lands could make it less great (though I probably have some blue-whites to upgrade my own version potentially) as you may not be able to go familiar into a bunch of hawks. Warden of evos isle would be considerable, but 3 cmc seems kind've high (2 cmc or being white for familiar would've been great). I was eyeing up favorable winds too (gravitational shift..maybe from side? expensive but powerful). Maybe ornithopter and faerie imposter, go all in flyers (if we had a reason to want to shuffle you could imposter hawk back for more shuffles..).
Also was looking at rebels. There's bound in silenceamrou scout as the core, then aven riftwatcher/children of korlis for life gain, defiant vanguard for eating big beaters (and acting as additional rebel fetch). I was thinking blue for training ground seemed good, as well as see beyond, which could let you shuffle in stranger one ofs (like dunerider outlaw or big game hunter. Mirror entity could fit into either this one of the hawk deck (lots of hawks become big, or fetchable win condition for rebels). I was even considering blue black rebels, using blightspeakers primarily, but leaving in the white cards to randomly fetch out (maybe needing more than just see beyond). Multiple blightspeakers and a training grounds gives you answers to a number of things as well as eot pinging as allowed.
No budget for aether vial probably hurts those ideas..
And then I was eyeing up distorting lens (last idea for this post I swear). It turns celestial purge into 1W instant speed exile any permanent. Purge is also good, as is glaring heresy. Devout lightcaster is good for an all white deck, but I wasn't sure if you could get good enough card advantage out of monowhite, and going duo color budget doesn't seem like it has room for a WWW card. Blue gives you transmute/fabricate/tidebinder mage, as well as basic CA like divination or something. Exiling literally any permanent seems like it has a lot of potential, but I'm not sure how to really break it (since they are all one for ones plus you need lens..). Maybe go full cheese, green white, run distorting lens + liquimetal coating (too bad white is by far the best for lens, cuz ancient grudge would be good there... I mean, red does have jaya ballard who seems busted, plus looting..). Hmm. Drawing up a liquilens cheese list.
Death denied might help against monoblack so they can't finish off your hand later on (eating the good ones), but typically you just draw into more cyclers and you want them in the bin. Most matchups you keep churning for a while without needing an infusion. Might toss one in the side just cuz. Not like I don't have room to test things.
4 Street Wraith
2 Krosan Tusker
4 Architects of Will
2 Barkhide Mauler
4 Disciple of Malice
4 Monstrous Carabid
1 Viscera Dragger
2 Wild Dogs
Cyclers: Lands
3 Barren Moor
3 Tranquil Thicket
4 Gnaw to the Bone
3 Evincar's Justice
Win:
4 Songs of the Damned
4 Drain Life
Other Lands:
4 Golgari Guildgate
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Forest
10 Swamp
1 Evincar's Justice
1 Viscera Dragger
2 Krosan Tusker
2 Doom Blade
3 Naturalize
Just what I initially tossed together. Cyclers themselves were pretty much 'hmm some of these and a few of those, yeah seems good' outside of the obvious includes. Wild dogs can hold off early if need be, especially if you can gnaw on upkeep if they don't trade him off. Typically cycling is better than hardcasting things. Rarely will a random dude kill someone I suspect. The primary gameplan is to cycle, cycle, cycle some more, gnaw to the bone or evincar's justice, cycle cyclecycleyclylclycle songs of the damned songs of the damned drain life you. You often get a fair deal of lands out, so multiples of drain life can just be shot at their face to make it a bit easier. If they gain a lot of life you might need to cast a couple guys at some point. Or just stall longer. Lands are just mashed together, but they seem fine so far. Might be tweaked. I could also see just putting justice in main, but I'll wait to make that decision til I play some more.
Like I said I haven't played it a ton, but it worked as advertised in those matches. Maybe a little more bad feeling because those matchups weren't fair. Cycling so many times means you're going to draw into your real cards, and hopefully those are good enough to hold you over. I'm using justice obviously, but crypt rats would be good also. One rats cost more than like my entire deck (well than it cost me, i got a few street wraiths and some other crap for free). It counts as a creature and can nuke for a lot which can be a secondary finisher with gnaws, but justice is fine. Can't be killed or bounced and comes out early enough. Can be boughtback. *shrug*
I dunno how it performs against delver or mbc. I've just been playing in the for fun room (haven't seen pauper games elsewhere really, and even there there's only like one at a time.. hopefully people come play). Sometime I'll get matched up against them though and find out. Delver seems like it might be hard. Mbc might nuke your hand too far, though a lot of the time you have spare lands you can bear to lose. Any good sideboard cards for delver/mbc? My board is just random stuff I had at the moment (so basically starter kit stuff). Maybe a couple grave scrabblers? Delver might just counter anything that matters. You can gnaw if they tap out but that's not really their plan ever, and while damns are instants, drains aren't.
It's kinda slow, but you're always doing something. That something being cycling. I maybe should've played my guys more often as guys, but I feel like drawing is better if you aren't under too much pressure. More playtesting should tell. Disciples obviously have applications against white decks. Wraiths can get in against swamps. It's grindy, but ideally you can bypass nightmarish board stall combat. Cuz combat is pretty simple. They attack, you take damage. Removal cards are basically mulligans against the deck, which is nice.
This deck was just something I tossed together while goldfishing brews in cockatrice a while back (and that's where dredgelon comes from, I just mashed words together for a save file), but recently it inspired me to get an mtgo account (skjall1992 showed interest, thus renewing my own, and we traded messages here about the deck- I think he's since added red for faithless looting (and other things), but mine for now is my original concept). It cost me 3ish tix for the entire thing from scratch (my sideboard is in a very primitive state atm). I've been playing it on the for fun section; I was concerned my 2 evolving wilds would just draw quits, plus I'm very new to the program anyway (which has its quirks).
How It Works
There are two primary win conditions here. Lotleth troll and zombie infestation. You can use commune with the gods to find either or grisly salvage to find troll or more gas (or a land if desperate). Infestation will grow you an army of 2/2s over time to swarm over. Troll will give you a very fast clock that has regen and after a turn a sizable butt. Once you get your threat down, you can chain cast shambling shell every turn. Use him to block and or put a +1/+1 counter down, then dredge more fuel into the yard to bring back next turn. Example- turn 2 lotleth troll, turn 3 discard 2 eidolons, play shell, discard eidolons again, sac shell, attack for 7. Next turn, dredge, mill another eidolon, play shell, recur 3 eidolons and discard them all, swing for a potential of 11. That's a pretty solid start, but I've had even better ones as well.
Eidolons are slightly better than squee once your engine is going (you get freshly milled eidolons when you cast shell versus having to wait an upkeep, and you also can get them back twice in one turn though that isn't not common). Squee is gas without gold spells. Typically you have a gold spell or two and can dig into a shell, but a mixture seems good in case shell gets taken from your yard (don't let them exile it from play, remember to sac it). Grisly salvage can be used at instant speed to empty your yard, either for more pump or to protect your eidolons (if not your poor shell). You lose the fresh mill, but hey what can you do.
The decision points are what to play versus what to discard (especially with infestation which can discard anything), waiting or not for regen up with troll, whether to dredge shell or not (if you want more mill and shell versus already having a gold card and preferring a draw step), which between troll and infestation given the option, whether or not to hardcast eidolons (typically bad, though if desperate and not under pressure... or they are at 1-2 life, here comes entropic eidolon!), whether to sac shell or not (watch for combat tricks, burn protection, blocking, not saccing for the extra attacker without summoning sickness, not needing to sac because you dredged another shell), plus the normal situational stuff. There's more to it than that (sideboards for example, how to play with and against- I don't have a ton of experience here but you don't have to autolose to hate), but the ideal game is straight forward. If everything goes perfectly you spend several turns doing the same thing, churning out zombies or fattening one up. Fortunately this is still fun! Huge resilient zombie trolls are neat, almost as neat as amassing a great hoard of zombies. Who doesn't love that?
Budget?
Very much so. I spent 3ish tix of my starting 5 putting this version together. I may use the rest in tweaking the sideboard, but that's still insanely cheap. In paper it's very cheap as well, as most cards are worth nothing. Squee is the only card worth anything iirc at about 1.50 each. If you want to keep it cheaper than a pack of sleeves, just play more eidolons. I don't think that's a sin. This is a huge selling point of the deck personally, but I really don't feel like I'm giving much up to budgetize it even. I'm going to be on the alert as far as mana issues and looking at budget options there, but it's playable as is. If nothing else it gives you some room to grow. If I make a paper version I may toss in lilianas (because they're laying around, not even sure if I want them mainboard though, at least side probably), my one abrupt (interaction, gold, instant, seems good...expensive :/), and whatever duals I have. So make sure you utilize your collection, there are things to consider adding.
4 Zombie Infestation
4 Lotleth Troll
Mill/Dig/Utility
4 Drown in Filth
4 Commune with the Gods
3 Grisly Salvage
Fuel
4 Entropic Eidolon
4 Verdant Eidolon
2 Enigma Eidolon
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Shambling Shell
Lands
10 Forest
11 Swamp
2 Evolving Wilds
3 Duress
4 Golgari Charm
2 Ranger's Guile
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Putrefy
I drafted up a new version on a whim the other day and went out got mtgo and bought it. This is a very straight forward list:
A) lands are not great. It doesn't ruin you too often, but use whatever duals you have. You want both colors turn 2 often, and almost always by 3 (infestation is black, but you need to be casting gold spells). I think a couple evolvings is okay. Maybe even 3 or 4. One in the opening is good. It lets you fix, and the deck has NO main deck 1 drops. No life loss even, heh. Plus I'm running drown in filths, so bonus (compared to guildgates)
B) Numbers could be tweaked. I may alter mine over time. Like I said I've just been playing in the for fun duels (and winning basically every match..not sure that's really enough to change rooms though- a number of the players haven't seemed great so far (and I'm rusty)) Drown in filth hasn't been insane, but I haven't had much pressure on me (the one aggressive start I played against had 3 goblin guides, but infestation ate them up and he stalled out pretty bad).
C) The sideboard. I had duresses from the starter kit. I had guiles from the starter kit (I think that's where I got them.. in any case skjall initially had them in for path though I'm not sure he kept them or we need them, mostly I had spare slots so why not test it. I wanted golgari charms for rest in peace/leyline (regen can be decent vs pyroclasm/anger, -1 for decks with lots of little guys, and of course it's an instant speed gold card so there are tricks there). Crypts for other gy decks. Decays would be great, but are expensive. I think I may go back and add something that kills creatures at instant speed. Preferably gold... If not, just like doom blades or something. Twin could be hard (not that I'm playing against top tier decks atm). Charm could luck out on mites, plus duress, but I definitely could still see some instant speed reactive spell in the board at least.
So yeah, that's my deck right now. It does cool things and I haven't seen anyone else using this engine prior, so yeah there's some pride there (winning with it feels great no matter what the competition is :P). Will it win you anything? Outside of fairly casual games? I have no idea; I actually don't have that much experience with it. But I've won most if not all of the handful of games/matches I've played so far (and often quite easily), and skjall sounded like he was enjoying it. So hey, if you wanna play modern but only have a grimy 5 dollar bill, here you go!
I've looked at many other options for decks similar to this, but this one has some sweet things going on (aka I've dug through a *****load of cards (anything with graveyard, discard, every gold spell... but you can easily overlook things or just miss something with your search terms, so feel free to contribute). If you have your own take on it, have suggestions, or just wanna say something, welcome!
Edit- Well, another idea. I was thinking about discard against us, and while I think you can dig for a second win condition if needed, treasured find might be worth consideration from the side. It can get back win conditions, it can be used to get back another gold spell (even another milled treasured find), it could even grab a third land (milled or reuse a wilds). It may find it's way into the deck for a little test. Also added two putrefy to board for now. Could use some creeping corrosions. Hmm.
How about the full 8 of 0 drop package? You need enough for early imposter, and an early ruse is best if you have oneb (if the game goes a few turns in spellstutter steps up for returns), but they are pretty weak outside of that. Memnite can get damage in with bounces if needed, but orni is a bit weak. I was also considering some blue white concoction with glint hawk and imposter for pressure, as I have some duals lying around. I don't have more than one or two paths though, and you definitely shift away from spellstuttering with that shift, which may be unwise.
I guess I'll toss in something about the topic.. It's a hard deck to absorb just looking at it. Seems a bit mana hungry from where I am. 2 for mage or 4 for flux, plus an undying, plus 2 mana each time (and ideally blocking something too, otherwise with mage you're just drawing a card, I could see using a sac outlet for additional value). Have you playtested it yet/what sort've decks are you expecting to play against (edit- okay, I see you say you haven't now :P)? Curious about how it plays out.
If you expect planeswalkers I could see hex parasite in the side. He's pretty good at reusing creatures, but without sac outlets you may not want him main, I dunno. Infinite trading/blockers for 1 mana activations, might be worth testing in main even.
Power conduit seems potentially juice as well. Not a creature, so can't beat but also dies less easily. Again, best with a sac outlet/enter triggers. Gives you infinite chumpers/traders again essentially, while charging up your non undyers. Block with young wolf, he dies, move counter from him to a gyre sage. Has some potential (if you only have undying guys you can put charge counters on itself, storing them for later). Thrull parasite can also remove counters, though it costs health (might not be so bad with the extort). Could use the black for sac outlets.
Have you considered like a green/black build? That's what I'd be tempted to try. Lose the guildmage and blue stuff, add hex parasite + power conduit maybe thrull and then add some sac outlets. You gain butcher ghoul, maybe mortician beetle, maybe something like spawning pit. Sac undyer for a counter onto pit, power conduit the +1 for another charge, make a 2/2 end up with a ready to go undying creature. Seems cool.
Maybe stuff like scarscale ritual (might fit in the blue version too, though you may not need the draw). Reset undying draw 2. Not sure what other sac outlet you would want, but there is a lot of stuff to consider and dig through. Just another potential take on the reusing undying theme. It takes a bit less mana once you're going (free sacs for more value, conduit is free, hex is only 1 if you pay life, plus is 1cmc himself) and has some really interesting synergies. Right now I feel like it's hard to get counters for flux and guildmage only draws a card for his time. Adding a sac outlet to get value seems good, and it opens you up to a color that is great for budget disruption (via removal/discard).
Having sac outlets gives you a lot of play. Prevents path from ruining you, gives you on the board tricks with all the pumping things and counters, and lets you get on demand power from your engines.
If you are straight up buying all these, I recommend checking for krenko's commands potentially in place of dragon fodder. Same exact card, slightly cheaper usually. Slight savings, but put those pennies in a jar for your duals :P. For example, channelfireball sells fodders at .49 and krenkos at .10. x4 and that's almost a hovel (obviously this is all pointless if you own fodders). You could also just add more and play 5-8 of the spells, maybe replacing wardriver just because of his double red.
Some burn wouldn't go amiss I suspect. Bolts if you have them, maybe pillar of flames if not. Or just some other instant speed one. Being able to nuke your own goblin token to save your witch could be okay. Nameless inversion is a goblin though I think that only matters in your deck with your hovels. Can get your guys through a blocker though (or if you stalled out and have lost of lords, pump). I think if you want to go all in you might want some of the 2 power 1 drops from the primer, replacing festering and maybe drums (though test those maybe, lords early could be worthwhile). If you want to be slightly more controlly (relying on big witches and removal and lording), maybe add some black removal, doom blades bone splinters tragic slip or even better ones that I can't think of.
Facevaulter lets you grow witch on demand, sac instead of paying echo, eat tokens, trigger festerings if you keep them. Earwig squad can figure out what's in their hand, potentially disrupt a combo not yet acquired, and is 5 power for 3 mana (worth or not I dunno). Warren weirding can clear the way or eat your own things to grow witch and set up for an alpha (is a goblin too for hovel or even like boggart birth rite/wort). And yeah, mad auntie is a .50 lord that can protect witches.
^some stuff
I feel like you want to tap out most turns (ramp/mystic spec/telling time) and essentially combo out; I'm not sure I'm a big fan of leak+remand. Archaeomancer seems too slow for anything. Have you been playing with the deck/does it work/what sort've environment is it for?
@katthemad Well it gives you something to build toward which can be nice. Losing one or two turns basically seems pretty punishing for the deck though. I could see experimenting with other removal in spear's spot. Helixes if you have them (depending on how the mana plays out), maybe even pillar of flame (depending on how much you need that 1 damage vs losing a mana and eating undying/persist/hurting graveyard things). I like kird ape, but I've been on the fence about it in budget personally. Dual lands and fetches make it so much better. I was actually looking at monogreen stompy. You lose the flexible removal (though some people play a gw version so you could get journey/ring still), but get what looks like a faster more reliable budget deck in the same vein. Basically trading woolly thoctar for leatherback baloth, the 1 drops for experiment one plus the disruptive dryad guy, you get some undying guys and stuff. You rely instead on pump/prey upon fight effects/beast within rather than burn. Changes the feel maybe though, which is the biggest part of picking your deck. There's a primer pinned next to this thread though (you've possibly looked already, heh).
Both burn and goblins are fairly straight forward, but the playstyle of burn can't hold my interest. Goblins have character (and you get to turn them into grenades). To each their own.
4x cheatyface
4x plains
plains
is for a single card tag. There are also little icons for tagging in the posting options. Just select and click the right one. If your deck is crafted somewhere there may be a copy to clipboard option. Cockatrice lets you do that. You can just paste it straight into deck tags and it comes with separators (maybe?). It's handy.
You run corrupted resolve? I always liked that card, wasn't sure if it was good enough. I usually end up backing off infect plans though, just because no inkmoths is such a step down. It does give you somewhere to improve it later if you like the deck though (or just happen to have those around).
One of the most important differences is that teamwork is spoonfed to you in L4D. You go out alone and get smokered or whatever, you die. You have no control once you're disabled. Teamwork is crucial to KF, but there's nothing forcing it like that. It's just that a variety of weaponry compliments each other; while one guy can clear the trash, he might need help on the fleshpound (but you aren't technically forced into that, a skilled player can kill FP with any weapon if he has enough room and time- so if you are the last surviving player you aren't entirely ****ed, there's an outside shot of you making it to the end of the round (when people come back)). KF scales from easy to hell as well per person from 1-6.
Neither are very dungeon-crawlery though... Path of Exile is basically a sequel to Diablo 2 (and free to play). Right now I personally play League of Legends and started some Battlefield 3 with some friends recently (was free to download a bit ago). Both are fun, encourage teamwork, and are more fun the more people you have.
By your description.. I'm tempted to suggest a MUD. Most are ***** (specifically color wise..) and are really hard to get into though. They're pretty dated and I doubt most people would be interested.. I'm past my mud-phase (though it lasted a long time while the one I played was around (tried a few others briefly but they just had nothing on the one that was shut down).
FPSes are really forgiving in that if you aren't always playing together it's less of a big deal. Sure you level up in bf3 and unlock stuff (weapons, accessories, gadgets, specializations), but the game doesn't take that into account and teams are just mixed experience players. Most games that have you trawling a dungeon for gear are gonna have you level up, which means unless you guys are always all together someone can get left behind (and usually leads to a *****load of characters and trying to keep track of which are with who).
10 lands? Jesus. I mean, obviously you don't want to fizzle on lands and only really need one.. interesting though.
On a different note, any budget options for making squadron hawk good? Be it something like lantern of insight (so you know if you want to shuffle) or equipment (bonesplitter? I have no swords :/). I really like stormscape familiar and squadron hawk. No dual lands could make it less great (though I probably have some blue-whites to upgrade my own version potentially) as you may not be able to go familiar into a bunch of hawks. Warden of evos isle would be considerable, but 3 cmc seems kind've high (2 cmc or being white for familiar would've been great). I was eyeing up favorable winds too (gravitational shift..maybe from side? expensive but powerful). Maybe ornithopter and faerie imposter, go all in flyers (if we had a reason to want to shuffle you could imposter hawk back for more shuffles..).
Also was looking at rebels. There's bound in silence amrou scout as the core, then aven riftwatcher/children of korlis for life gain, defiant vanguard for eating big beaters (and acting as additional rebel fetch). I was thinking blue for training ground seemed good, as well as see beyond, which could let you shuffle in stranger one ofs (like dunerider outlaw or big game hunter. Mirror entity could fit into either this one of the hawk deck (lots of hawks become big, or fetchable win condition for rebels). I was even considering blue black rebels, using blightspeakers primarily, but leaving in the white cards to randomly fetch out (maybe needing more than just see beyond). Multiple blightspeakers and a training grounds gives you answers to a number of things as well as eot pinging as allowed.
No budget for aether vial probably hurts those ideas..
And then I was eyeing up distorting lens (last idea for this post I swear). It turns celestial purge into 1W instant speed exile any permanent. Purge is also good, as is glaring heresy. Devout lightcaster is good for an all white deck, but I wasn't sure if you could get good enough card advantage out of monowhite, and going duo color budget doesn't seem like it has room for a WWW card. Blue gives you transmute/fabricate/tidebinder mage, as well as basic CA like divination or something. Exiling literally any permanent seems like it has a lot of potential, but I'm not sure how to really break it (since they are all one for ones plus you need lens..). Maybe go full cheese, green white, run distorting lens + liquimetal coating (too bad white is by far the best for lens, cuz ancient grudge would be good there... I mean, red does have jaya ballard who seems busted, plus looting..). Hmm. Drawing up a liquilens cheese list.