The interaction with Gideon does deserve questions to be asked. Assuming a Leyline of Punishment voids the damage-prevention clause on Gideon, if Gideon gets blocked, by say, a 3/3 creature with Infect, will the -1/-1 counters stay on Gideon?
The interaction with Gideon does deserve questions to be asked. Assuming a Leyline of Punishment voids the damage-prevention clause on Gideon, if Gideon gets blocked, by say, a 3/3 creature with Infect, will the -1/-1 counters stay on Gideon?
Sure. Counters stick around on an object even when it changes types. They just won't do much as long as he isn't a creature.
The interaction with Gideon does deserve questions to be asked. Assuming a Leyline of Punishment voids the damage-prevention clause on Gideon, if Gideon gets blocked, by say, a 3/3 creature with Infect, will the -1/-1 counters stay on Gideon?
Yeah, gideon will forever* be a 3/3 anytime you activate him after that point. the -1/-1 counters stick around, even if they do nothing on their own. Gideon would also technically lose 3 loyalty counters as well.
*Forever doesn't include when gideon stops being a creature, he'll then just be a planeswalker with 3 -1/-1 counters and 3 less loyalty counters at that point.
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Yeah, gideon will forever* be a 3/3 anytime you activate him after that point. the -1/-1 counters stick around, even if they do nothing on their own. Gideon would also technically lose 3 loyalty counters as well.
*Forever doesn't include when gideon stops being a creature, he'll then just be a planeswalker with 3 -1/-1 counters and 3 less loyalty counters at that point.
Actually, I don't believe he would lose any loyalty, since he is never going to be dealt any actual damage in this case.
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Damage in the form of counters is still damage. Since Gideon can't prevent any damage to himself because of Leyline of Punishment, it will receive 3 -1/-1 counters which will stay on it permanently.
EDH/Commander is a social format, right? So why don't people use their social skills to discuss what they like and don't like, instead of adopting a list with 60+ banned cards?
Actually, I don't believe he would lose any loyalty, since he is never going to be dealt any actual damage in this case.
You're getting confused between damage and its results.
119.4. Damage is processed in a three-part sequence.
119.4a First, damage is dealt, as modified by replacement and prevention effects that interact with damage. (See rule 614, "Replacement Effects," and rule 615, "Prevention Effects.") Abilities that trigger when damage is dealt trigger now and wait to be put on the stack.
119.4b Next, damage that's been dealt is transformed into its results, as modified by replacement effects that interact with those results (such as life loss or counters).
119.4c Finally, the damage event occurs.
119.3. Damage may have one or more of the following results, depending on whether the recipient of the damage is a player or permanent, the characteristics of the damage's source, and the characteristics of the damage's recipient (if it's a permanent).
119.3a Damage dealt to a player causes that player to lose that much life.
119.3b Damage dealt to a planeswalker causes that many loyalty counters to be removed from that planeswalker.
119.3c Damage dealt to a creature by a source with wither causes that many -1/-1 counters to be put on that creature.
119.3d Damage dealt to a creature by a source without wither causes that much damage to be marked on that creature.
119.3e Damage dealt by a source with lifelink causes that source's controller to gain that much life, in addition to the damage's other results.
Not quite. Wither is a damage replacement, so if damage would be dealt to a creature by a source with Wither (or Infect in this case), then that many -1/-1 counters are placed on it instead. So the damage is never actually dealt, only assigned. The actual damage is replaced entirely by the -1/-1 counters.
Damage in the form of counters is still damage. Since Gideon can't prevent any damage to himself because of Leyline of Punishment, it will receive 3 -1/-1 counters which will stay on it permanently.
Not quite. Wither is a damage replacement, so if damage would be dealt to a creature by a source with Wither (or Infect in this case), then that many -1/-1 counters are placed on it instead. So the damage is never actually dealt, only assigned. The actual damage is replaced entirely by the -1/-1 counters.
Don't planeswakers count as players for the purposes of most spells? So shouldn't he get a poison counter, and die if he gets ten of them, just like a player would?
IIRC, this question was already raised in the Shadowmoor era.
A similar one was with lifelink+wither.
A 3/3 lifelink wither would give 3 -1/-1 counters AND gain you 3 life.
That should be proof enough that the creature actually deals damage (be it in the form of -1/-1 counters)
Not quite. Wither is a damage replacement, so if damage would be dealt to a creature by a source with Wither (or Infect in this case), then that many -1/-1 counters are placed on it instead. So the damage is never actually dealt, only assigned. The actual damage is replaced entirely by the -1/-1 counters.
Wither is not a damage replacement effect. It is a damage modifier effect along the same lines as deathtouch/lifelink.
702.77a Wither is a static ability. Damage dealt to a creature by a source with wither isn’t marked on that creature. Rather, it causes that many -1/-1 counters to be put on that creature. See rule 119.3.
IF a planeswalker creature like Gideon Jura is effected by wither damage he is going to suffer both the effects of being a creature damaged by a wither creature and a planeswalker.
119.3. Damage may have one or more of the following results, depending on whether the recipient of the damage is a player or permanent, the characteristics of the damage’s source, and the characteristics of the damage’s recipient (if it’s a permanent).
119.3b Damage dealt to a planeswalker causes that many loyalty counters to be removed from that planeswalker.
119.3c Damage dealt to a creature by a source with wither causes that many -1/-1 counters to be put on that creature.
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Don't planeswakers count as players for the purposes of most spells? So shouldn't he get a poison counter, and die if he gets ten of them, just like a player would?
Trying to say they 'count as players' is just going to get you confused. Really, really confused. They occasionally behave in ways similar to players, but they are not, and never 'count as players'. Just because it looks like you're targeting a planeswalker with a Bolt, doesn't mean you are. Indeed, you can't. Because they aren't players.
Wither is not a damage replacement effect. It is a damage modifier effect along the same lines as deathtouch/lifelink.
702.77a Wither is a static ability. Damage dealt to a creature by a source with wither isn’t marked on that creature. Rather, it causes that many -1/-1 counters to be put on that creature. See rule 119.3.
IF a planeswalker creature like Gideon Jura is effected by wither damage he is going to suffer both the effects of being a creature damaged by a wither creature and a planeswalker.
119.3. Damage may have one or more of the following results, depending on whether the recipient of the damage is a player or permanent, the characteristics of the damage’s source, and the characteristics of the damage’s recipient (if it’s a permanent).
119.3b Damage dealt to a planeswalker causes that many loyalty counters to be removed from that planeswalker.
119.3c Damage dealt to a creature by a source with wither causes that many -1/-1 counters to be put on that creature.
Problem comes from Gideon having a Prevention Shield from all damage dealt to him during the turn.
you would need something with Wither / Infect to have its damage not be prevented in order for Gideon to lose its loyalty counters.
Trying to say they 'count as players' is just going to get you confused. Really, really confused. They occasionally behave in ways similar to players, but they are not, and never 'count as players'. Just because it looks like you're targeting a planeswalker with a Bolt, doesn't mean you are. Indeed, you can't. Because they aren't players.
Elaborate. If I'm not bolting the planeswalker, what am I doing?
Elaborate. If I'm not bolting the planeswalker, what am I doing?
This:
306.7. If noncombat damage would be dealt to a player by a source controlled by an opponent, that opponent may have that source deal that damage to a planeswalker the first player controls instead. This is a redirection effect (see rule 614.9) and is subject to the normal rules for ordering replacement effects (see rule 616). The opponent chooses whether to redirect the damage as the redirection effect is applied.
In other words, you're targeting the controller of the planeswalker, and choosing to redirect the damage Bolt would deal to them to their planeswalker as Bolt resolves.
That said, when you attack a planeswalker, you are actually attacking it, not doing this. Just to confuse you.
Elaborate. If I'm not bolting the planeswalker, what am I doing?
lol, yea you should read up on your Comprehensive Rules.
Planeswalkers arent players.
Planeswalkers arent creatures unless something makes them a creature.
Planeswalkers are Permanents.
Planeswalkers arent targeted by Damage effects because they are neither a creature or a player.
Planeswalkers can be attacked by permanents that can attack.
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Infect (This creature deals damage in the form of -1/-1 counters and to players in the form of poison counters.)
affect planeswalkers?
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Sure. Counters stick around on an object even when it changes types. They just won't do much as long as he isn't a creature.
Yeah, gideon will forever* be a 3/3 anytime you activate him after that point. the -1/-1 counters stick around, even if they do nothing on their own. Gideon would also technically lose 3 loyalty counters as well.
*Forever doesn't include when gideon stops being a creature, he'll then just be a planeswalker with 3 -1/-1 counters and 3 less loyalty counters at that point.
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Actually, I don't believe he would lose any loyalty, since he is never going to be dealt any actual damage in this case.
You're getting confused between damage and its results.
Also wrong!
Not quite. Wither is a damage replacement, so if damage would be dealt to a creature by a source with Wither (or Infect in this case), then that many -1/-1 counters are placed on it instead. So the damage is never actually dealt, only assigned. The actual damage is replaced entirely by the -1/-1 counters.
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A similar one was with lifelink+wither.
A 3/3 lifelink wither would give 3 -1/-1 counters AND gain you 3 life.
That should be proof enough that the creature actually deals damage (be it in the form of -1/-1 counters)
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Wither is not a damage replacement effect. It is a damage modifier effect along the same lines as deathtouch/lifelink.
119.3b Damage dealt to a planeswalker causes that many loyalty counters to be removed from that planeswalker.
119.3c Damage dealt to a creature by a source with wither causes that many -1/-1 counters to be put on that creature.
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Trying to say they 'count as players' is just going to get you confused. Really, really confused. They occasionally behave in ways similar to players, but they are not, and never 'count as players'. Just because it looks like you're targeting a planeswalker with a Bolt, doesn't mean you are. Indeed, you can't. Because they aren't players.
Problem comes from Gideon having a Prevention Shield from all damage dealt to him during the turn.
you would need something with Wither / Infect to have its damage not be prevented in order for Gideon to lose its loyalty counters.
Elaborate. If I'm not bolting the planeswalker, what am I doing?
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This:
In other words, you're targeting the controller of the planeswalker, and choosing to redirect the damage Bolt would deal to them to their planeswalker as Bolt resolves.
That said, when you attack a planeswalker, you are actually attacking it, not doing this. Just to confuse you.
lol, yea you should read up on your Comprehensive Rules.
Planeswalkers arent players.
Planeswalkers arent creatures unless something makes them a creature.
Planeswalkers are Permanents.
Planeswalkers arent targeted by Damage effects because they are neither a creature or a player.
Planeswalkers can be attacked by permanents that can attack.