I'll start off by saying: you're probably doing something wrong.
Fist off, mono black isn't even viable, it won't even be pressent at most legitimate metagames. It is far too slow and unweildly.
Cutting library is a huge, huge mistake, and adding mana vault is an even bigger one. As for the 2/3 count, that is actually optimal, brassy just runs 4 delta because he likes deltas. Library is a beast, it wins games, all by itself. First of all, against control there is nothing better. You let recalls resolve to keep library active, thats just how good it is. It is a machine.
When playing against what I like to call "jank aggro", due to their obsolesence, rember: you are the aggro. Do not ever, ever play like a control deck. You are faster than suicide black. They will have to play the control. Your best rout, as such, is to quickly get a bunch of goblins out. Essentially, get etw in your hand and cast it. The act of casting it usually entails 2+ spells, and you can feed things like repeal and bs into it. Once you have 8+ goblins, they won't be able to keep up. Just attack twice and you should have the game. Counter null rod, always, and don't rely on lands for mana. Futhermore, remember: black isn't like stacks, they only have limited access to permanent disruption. Null rod is the biggest threat, but you have 4 ways to bounce it, 8 to counter it, and sometimes you can just ignore it. They have no disruption that hits you on your turn, so just set up for a bunch of quick goblins or recoup + will and you will inevitably win. Keep aggressive hands, and play aggressively. SB in the rest of your etw, and g2/3 just cast quick etws. Black has no answer to that, and will lose.
If library rarely draws you cards, you are probably playing wrong. Once you get to library, you assume the role of control, unless the win is blatantly accessable. Let things to through to get to 7 cards and maintain your hand. Library will cary the game through for you.
I'm not sure what your used to, jenkins, but I'll let you know strait up: suicide black, keeper, stompy, trix, anything with green, etc. They are all dead. Stax is not doing well, either, right now. In a typical metagame, expect even parts of gifts/cs(on the decline), long varients (ritual based combo), and fish (like old fish, but without fish and with things like grunt and confidant). You may encounter oath, stax, or some rouge deck every once and a while, but thats the basic synopsys. Among the fish catagory, and on the rise, is bomberman (although I would classify that as control, but, as of recently, is becomming more fishy). All combo save stom based and dragon is gone, all aggro in the traditional sense is gone. Control assumes the role of aggro in the format, and fish (what looks like aggro) is actually the control deck of the format. Its kind of weird, and very different from traditional formats, or what type 1 once was. I've been with magic, and type 1, since it started becoming what it is, around the time of long and gat, so I don't konw much about the old format, but I know the complete evolution of the modern format, since I've been around for that.
To be fair though modern Sui Black can compete vs. Gifts and control. The matchup probably is not favorable but Gifts doesn't win 100% of the time. Gifts should not be losing to old school Sui though.
With all decks and Gifts in particular the more you play the better you get. Playskill is tends to be more important with Gifts and more mainstream decks because everyone is running the same build within 5 or 10 cards.
While not viable, it does have its matchups, and I've read elsewhere that discard and mana deprivation give MDG a hard time. That's what my friend's deck focuses on. Turn one ritual, hymn + duress followed by turn two wasteland, sinkhole or null rod is tough to deal with. Admittadly, not all draws are like that but there are 9 discard spells and 9 LD cards + Bob, Negator and Hypnotic Specter. I'll take your advice though and try my best to get some goblin tokens into play asap for this matchup.
Cutting library is a huge, huge mistake, and adding mana vault is an even bigger one.
I'll keep this in mind, but I've only wanted to see Library about two games total. Mana Vault is always a welcome when I draw it as it helps with casting the 4cc stuff. Also, it should be noted that 1st and 2nd place at the March 11th Eudemonia Mox tournament were both gifts decks (MDG took second) and neither ran Library, but both ran Mana Vault. I'm not looking to discredit anyone here, I just know that even before I saw those lists I preferred it that way.
RG Playing undercosted burn and over-powered creatures since 1994. RG
"I finally figured out what One With Nothing is good for!" says Paul. "Oh yeah? What?" comes the reply. "It comboes with Tarmogoyf!"
True story...
Curious, why isn't Burning Wish good enough to make the decklist for Gifts?
JayC
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While I'm not an authority on any deck in type one, it seems to me that the deck doesn't want to make Tendrils cost 3BBR. I put it this way because there have been a few times where I've gone off and mana was extremely scarce, and if I had needed an additional two mana (especially an additional R), I wouldn't have been able to win. I originally wanted to add Wish, but after thinking about this, decided it probably was better to not include it.
Edit: Also, I'm looking to Proxy up versions of decks that MDG has a difficult time with. Anybody have a list of suggestions for me to start with? Right now I'm going to start with BUW Fish, UbaStax and maybe Ichorid, though it doesn't look like the last one mentioned is too tough.
RG Playing undercosted burn and over-powered creatures since 1994. RG
"I finally figured out what One With Nothing is good for!" says Paul. "Oh yeah? What?" comes the reply. "It comboes with Tarmogoyf!"
True story...
Wish did used to be in the deck. It was cut, however, for several important reasons. 1) It is extreemly slow. Drawing relavent cards is very important. 2) The deck sometimes needs to win very fast, and paying 1R extra for that etw just isn't a very practical occurance. 3) There are better ways to utalize the slot. More important than any of these, however, is that it really hurts sideboard development. Having those random sorceries just for a wishboard means that actually sideboarding for games 2 and 3 is harder and less effective. Remember, games two and three are more important than game one. It is better to have a better deck games 2/3, and a worse one game 1 than a deck of mediocre power throughout the entire match.
The reasons vault is bad are very subtle but very important. Granted, its benifits are that it accellerates +2 mana, and it is an artifact for bounce/academy purposes. However, its mana boost is colorless, and colored mana is a precious resource. Furthermore, the deck has enough problems with null rod as is, why compound that flaw? Because of these reasons, dark ritual is almost always better, which is the replacement for vault right now. Ritual also works a lot better as its easier to tutor up (mystical) and it works better with will.
As for decks that are really good vs gifts, a properlly built stax deck can be okay (it needs access to things like tabernacle, cap, chalice, etc). Even then, gifts has access to 3+ mass bounce now, and etw is very powerful. All in all, stax doesn't see much play. What I would really test against is a good fish deck. Fish has access to the right amount of card advantage (confidant and friends), really effective disruptive beatsticks (grunt), maindeck null rod and chalice (sometimes), sometimes salvagers combo, etc. The mirror is particularlly important to test against. Drain based combo also has a good game against you, if properlly built and pioleted, as are some ritual based varients, as they are on a fairly even playing field and can push through early for the win a lot of the time.
Don't bother testing against ichorid. Ichorid, as of now, is incabable of sustained performance at a large tourament, and you have an okay game vs them. Sure, they are fast, but you have maindeck twister and crypt to own them with. Serriously, its just funny making gifts piles with them since you can throw crypt into any pile and gaurentee you won't get it. Unlike slower drain based decks, gifts can win early, and thats what you need to do. Get out some quick goblins, throw your crypts and twisters at your opponant to screw em up, and combo off when able.
Mana Vault hasn't replaced any colored mana sources in my deck. I've found that Library of Alexandria isn't fitting for me, and also that I was drawing too much land so I took the Library out in favor of the Vault. I may add another land to the list, maybe dropping a repeal to do so, but not until I test my current configuration against fish.
Thank you for the suggestions on what to test against. I will be proxying up those decks tomorrow and will try to get as much play time in as I can before I start heading to the tournaments. Before I go though, I still need my last two mana drains, two duals and a tolarian academy. Here's the list I've been practicing with:
And this list tied for top 4 at March 11th Eudemonia Mox Emerald Event:
Eric Aune (Gifts)
Maindeck:
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Gifts Univen
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Rebuild
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Mana Drain
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Dark Ritual
2 Duress
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tendril's of Agony
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Recoup
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Snow-covered Island
1 Swamp
Sideboard:
1 Fire/Ice
1 Echoing Truth
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Pithing Needle
3 Massacre
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Duress
1 Rebuild
RG Playing undercosted burn and over-powered creatures since 1994. RG
"I finally figured out what One With Nothing is good for!" says Paul. "Oh yeah? What?" comes the reply. "It comboes with Tarmogoyf!"
True story...
You're build needs at least 1 more land. 14 is just too few, I would stick with 15-16.
I still love loa, but I suppose I can see justification for cutting it.
You're sb, on the otherhand, looks... not so hawt.
You have too many blasts. I would never run over 3. A few reasons for this: For some odd reason you are running ZERO duresses. This is a huge mistake. The quoted version runs 4 total, in contrast. Duress is simply the best anti control and combo card you have access too. It serriously wins games. Better than blast a lot of the time, since it is premptive. Blasts are okay, duress is amazing.
I think vapor is likely unneccessary. I'm not sure what you would sideboard it in against.
Electrolyze is just terrible. 3 mana cards need to be card drawing engines or game winning blows. They don't need to be fish removal. Against fish, your mana base is under attack, and that extra card is definitly not worth the tempo loss. As such fire/ice is better. On that note, I like dart above the prior too. Mostly, it is really easy to cast, it hits things on seperate turns, so you don't need to waste fire on a single confidant, etc. (serves double duty), creates an essnetial storm of 3 (2 life, and 2 spells), and is very elegant.
I see your point for Duress and will try to find space for it. Mostly my list is what I've come up with in my limited play experience. I still haven't been able to proxy up any fish or stax or even other Gifts decks so I have a lot of testing to go before I show up at an actual tournament. My opponents have been only rogue decks. Out of my testing so far I've only come up with one definitive thing for my list, and that is that I want Mana Vault in place of Library. Other than that I'm just trying out some ideas.
Edit: Does anybody have the arguments for Repeal vs Chain of Vapor in MDG? I see benefits of both and am undecided on which to run.
Edit2: I made my decision on the repeal vs chain of vapor, and I prefer chain of vapor over repeal. Now my biggest concern is deciding if my sideboard needs a 2nd duress in it or if it needs rebuild. I'm assuming the rebuild since it does so well vs stax, but duress is so useful since I've put it into my build... I guess I'll put the required card in there though (rebuild).
Edit3: I just got back from Eudemonia Mox Emerald event and made top eight, losing my top 8 match to U/W fish (which I had no practice against yet). The list I used is the one I listed above as my own build. The only two differences are -1 pyroblast -1 R.E.B. +1 Rebuild +1 Duress. I'll post a report when I get a chance.
RG Playing undercosted burn and over-powered creatures since 1994. RG
"I finally figured out what One With Nothing is good for!" says Paul. "Oh yeah? What?" comes the reply. "It comboes with Tarmogoyf!"
True story...
Don't bother testing against ichorid. Ichorid, as of now, is incabable of sustained performance at a large tourament, and you have an okay game vs them. Sure, they are fast, but you have maindeck twister and crypt to own them with. Serriously, its just funny making gifts piles with them since you can throw crypt into any pile and gaurentee you won't get it. Unlike slower drain based decks, gifts can win early, and thats what you need to do. Get out some quick goblins, throw your crypts and twisters at your opponant to screw em up, and combo off when able.
Huh? Gifts is at a severe disadvantage in the Ichorid match-up. This was even expounded in Steven's "Manaless Ichorid Versus Meandeck Gifts" article. Also, I have tested the match-up, extensively... or I should say frustratingly.
This match-up isn't even fun. Even with Tinker/Colossus, Gifts would rarely win, unless it got a turn 1 Colossus. A turn 3 or later Colossus was rarely worth the effort and you still lost with it in play. Tormod's Crypt doesn't even bother Ichorid. Even TWO Crypt's rarely hurt Ichorid. Pithing Needle is a bit more of a hassle, Leyline of the Void is by far the worst, but people hardly play it. Timetwister can be a nuisance, but unless you're gonna combo off with your new hand of 7, you can still lose.
I wouldn't be willing to put Crypt in my pile against Ichorid, because they will give it to you and it's practically dead.
So, test against Ichorid, but don't be too frustrated if you lose, because, it's one of your WORST matches.
Gifts isn't at as severe a disadvantage as you propose. Since gifts can win within the first few turns as a combo deck, it stands a much better chance than, say, slaver.
That being said, it isn't a good matchup, but I wouldn't say its as terrible as stated, simply due to things like etw.
Speaking from tourament experience, I have never lost a match to Ichorid with gifts in a tourament setting. That being said, I have only played Ichorid twice in a tourament setting, and that was 4 months ago (the last time I played magic irl). I was also playing Colossus at the time, which won me one game. Another game was won due to my opponant's inability to draw bazaar, and subsequent mull to 2 I believe. As for the other two games, one was actually hard, but I pulled off a tendrils ftw at 5 life, and the other I dropped an early crypt and tutored up another, which allowed me to eventually win with some goblin tokens.
Regardless, I would be extreemly suprised to see Ichorid at the top tables late in a moderatly sized tourament, as they tend to kill themselves and run into decks that eat them eventually. I also wouldn't expect more than a 50/50 matchup result, but thats only from what I've been told.
In other news: Gifts, recently, has been trying some very strange ideas, including sbing into Children of Korolis. What is ya'lls oppioin on that?
Gifts isn't at as severe a disadvantage as you propose. Since gifts can win within the first few turns as a combo deck, it stands a much better chance than, say, slaver.
That being said, it isn't a good matchup, but I wouldn't say its as terrible as stated, simply due to things like etw.
The problem is, with all the disruption that Ichorid packs, Gifts can be in a huge hole. Plus, Gifts can't even counter anything...because it doesn't make a difference. It's basically combo vs combo and you can't even counter their main win conditions.
I don't see how Empty tilts the game in your favor. Empty merely stalls for a whole turn. After which, you're still gonna have infy creatures attacking you...because they all come back.
In other news: Gifts, recently, has been trying some very strange ideas, including sbing into Children of Korolis. What is ya'lls oppioin on that?
There's no way I'm adding a 4th color to Gifts, especially for Children of Korolis. That sounds terrible.
You know what I found out to be good against Ichorid is? Platinum Angel.
I mean think about it, They dont have mana. You drop it and take all the damage. Nothing can really happen. Well I play Stax, and in some test matchups, I found that they can't stop Platz, and even if they could, they cant really play around countermagic or Sphere of Resistances(stax).
You will very rarely play Ichorid ever. Rely on crypt, or just eat the loss. No reason to devout so much deck space towards combating a deck that you will play maybe once.
You will very rarely play Ichorid ever. Rely on crypt, or just eat the loss. No reason to devout so much deck space towards combating a deck that you will play maybe once.
You do run countermagic and such.
But yes, Platz is good against other decks, such as combo and even Fish.
But we do have quite a few Ichorid players running around here in the NW.
Is Bitter Ordeal good enough for Gifts? This may be a question for any combo deck but... usually if you were able to Extract 2-3 cards from a deck, such as gifts, or may others, the game would be, if not close to, over. Against Oath removing it's 3 creatures means the game is over. Against Long it can be the same case.
In the mirror Tendrils, Warrens, means Gifts Loses, you could easily pull this off early without having to build storm 10...
If I'm not mistaken, Dark Ritual and Bitter Ordeal count as 2 alone, so you're right there...
Just my thoughts. I like the card.
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Bitter Ordeal only copies when a permanent is put into the graveyard so Dark Ritual does not work. This makes it really difficult to storm it at all. Bitter Ordeal doesn't fit the Gifts game plan and it is only affective vs. Oath and some Storm decks. Either Extract or Jester's Cap would see play before Bitter Ordeal, and neither of those do see play in Gifts.
Bitter Ordeal only copies when a permanent is put into the graveyard so Dark Ritual does not work. This makes it really difficult to storm it at all. Bitter Ordeal doesn't fit the Gifts game plan and it is only affective vs. Oath and some Storm decks. Either Extract or Jester's Cap would see play before Bitter Ordeal, and neither of those do see play in Gifts.
OHHHH - permanent... thank you. My bad.
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I've been reading how some people are convinced that Street Wraith is just broken in vintage. While I can see that being the case in Dredge Ichorid, I don't see it being the case in any other deck. To be honest though, I don't care if it is broken in any other deck, I'm wondering if it is broken in Gifts in some way I'm not seeing. There is of course the whole 56 card deck thing, which is nice, but in a combo deck that relies on mulligans to a good hand, not being able to see that last card seems detrimental. Any thoughts?
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RG Playing undercosted burn and over-powered creatures since 1994. RG
"I finally figured out what One With Nothing is good for!" says Paul. "Oh yeah? What?" comes the reply. "It comboes with Tarmogoyf!"
True story...
I think Gush will replace Gifts in Control/Combo. I don't see hard core combo being able to support 4 Gush as well as control decks can. In the end I think 4 Gush is better then 4 Gifts. You are still able to tutor up a Gifts to find your last Combo pieces, and Gush is amazing at drawing cards.
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Fist off, mono black isn't even viable, it won't even be pressent at most legitimate metagames. It is far too slow and unweildly.
Cutting library is a huge, huge mistake, and adding mana vault is an even bigger one. As for the 2/3 count, that is actually optimal, brassy just runs 4 delta because he likes deltas. Library is a beast, it wins games, all by itself. First of all, against control there is nothing better. You let recalls resolve to keep library active, thats just how good it is. It is a machine.
When playing against what I like to call "jank aggro", due to their obsolesence, rember: you are the aggro. Do not ever, ever play like a control deck. You are faster than suicide black. They will have to play the control. Your best rout, as such, is to quickly get a bunch of goblins out. Essentially, get etw in your hand and cast it. The act of casting it usually entails 2+ spells, and you can feed things like repeal and bs into it. Once you have 8+ goblins, they won't be able to keep up. Just attack twice and you should have the game. Counter null rod, always, and don't rely on lands for mana. Futhermore, remember: black isn't like stacks, they only have limited access to permanent disruption. Null rod is the biggest threat, but you have 4 ways to bounce it, 8 to counter it, and sometimes you can just ignore it. They have no disruption that hits you on your turn, so just set up for a bunch of quick goblins or recoup + will and you will inevitably win. Keep aggressive hands, and play aggressively. SB in the rest of your etw, and g2/3 just cast quick etws. Black has no answer to that, and will lose.
If library rarely draws you cards, you are probably playing wrong. Once you get to library, you assume the role of control, unless the win is blatantly accessable. Let things to through to get to 7 cards and maintain your hand. Library will cary the game through for you.
I'm not sure what your used to, jenkins, but I'll let you know strait up: suicide black, keeper, stompy, trix, anything with green, etc. They are all dead. Stax is not doing well, either, right now. In a typical metagame, expect even parts of gifts/cs(on the decline), long varients (ritual based combo), and fish (like old fish, but without fish and with things like grunt and confidant). You may encounter oath, stax, or some rouge deck every once and a while, but thats the basic synopsys. Among the fish catagory, and on the rise, is bomberman (although I would classify that as control, but, as of recently, is becomming more fishy). All combo save stom based and dragon is gone, all aggro in the traditional sense is gone. Control assumes the role of aggro in the format, and fish (what looks like aggro) is actually the control deck of the format. Its kind of weird, and very different from traditional formats, or what type 1 once was. I've been with magic, and type 1, since it started becoming what it is, around the time of long and gat, so I don't konw much about the old format, but I know the complete evolution of the modern format, since I've been around for that.
With all decks and Gifts in particular the more you play the better you get. Playskill is tends to be more important with Gifts and more mainstream decks because everyone is running the same build within 5 or 10 cards.
Agreed. =)
While not viable, it does have its matchups, and I've read elsewhere that discard and mana deprivation give MDG a hard time. That's what my friend's deck focuses on. Turn one ritual, hymn + duress followed by turn two wasteland, sinkhole or null rod is tough to deal with. Admittadly, not all draws are like that but there are 9 discard spells and 9 LD cards + Bob, Negator and Hypnotic Specter. I'll take your advice though and try my best to get some goblin tokens into play asap for this matchup.
I'll keep this in mind, but I've only wanted to see Library about two games total. Mana Vault is always a welcome when I draw it as it helps with casting the 4cc stuff. Also, it should be noted that 1st and 2nd place at the March 11th Eudemonia Mox tournament were both gifts decks (MDG took second) and neither ran Library, but both ran Mana Vault. I'm not looking to discredit anyone here, I just know that even before I saw those lists I preferred it that way.
RG Playing undercosted burn and over-powered creatures since 1994. RG
"I finally figured out what One With Nothing is good for!" says Paul. "Oh yeah? What?" comes the reply. "It comboes with Tarmogoyf!"
True story...
JayC
Spread the word.
Edit: Also, I'm looking to Proxy up versions of decks that MDG has a difficult time with. Anybody have a list of suggestions for me to start with? Right now I'm going to start with BUW Fish, UbaStax and maybe Ichorid, though it doesn't look like the last one mentioned is too tough.
RG Playing undercosted burn and over-powered creatures since 1994. RG
"I finally figured out what One With Nothing is good for!" says Paul. "Oh yeah? What?" comes the reply. "It comboes with Tarmogoyf!"
True story...
The reasons vault is bad are very subtle but very important. Granted, its benifits are that it accellerates +2 mana, and it is an artifact for bounce/academy purposes. However, its mana boost is colorless, and colored mana is a precious resource. Furthermore, the deck has enough problems with null rod as is, why compound that flaw? Because of these reasons, dark ritual is almost always better, which is the replacement for vault right now. Ritual also works a lot better as its easier to tutor up (mystical) and it works better with will.
As for decks that are really good vs gifts, a properlly built stax deck can be okay (it needs access to things like tabernacle, cap, chalice, etc). Even then, gifts has access to 3+ mass bounce now, and etw is very powerful. All in all, stax doesn't see much play. What I would really test against is a good fish deck. Fish has access to the right amount of card advantage (confidant and friends), really effective disruptive beatsticks (grunt), maindeck null rod and chalice (sometimes), sometimes salvagers combo, etc. The mirror is particularlly important to test against. Drain based combo also has a good game against you, if properlly built and pioleted, as are some ritual based varients, as they are on a fairly even playing field and can push through early for the win a lot of the time.
Don't bother testing against ichorid. Ichorid, as of now, is incabable of sustained performance at a large tourament, and you have an okay game vs them. Sure, they are fast, but you have maindeck twister and crypt to own them with. Serriously, its just funny making gifts piles with them since you can throw crypt into any pile and gaurentee you won't get it. Unlike slower drain based decks, gifts can win early, and thats what you need to do. Get out some quick goblins, throw your crypts and twisters at your opponant to screw em up, and combo off when able.
I saw Null Rod and Chalice mentioned, but are there any other cards that can just shut down MDG, even if they are sided in for games 2/3?
Duress is a popular choice, as it tends to wreck the combo pieces pretty well. Tormod's Crypt and Leyline of the Void are also choices, as they stop Yawgmoth's Will from being so potent.
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Thank you for the suggestions on what to test against. I will be proxying up those decks tomorrow and will try to get as much play time in as I can before I start heading to the tournaments. Before I go though, I still need my last two mana drains, two duals and a tolarian academy. Here's the list I've been practicing with:
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
2 Duress
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Fact or Fiction
3 Gifts Ungiven
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Merchant Scroll
1 Timewalk
1 Timetwister
1 Recoup
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Snow-Covered Island
4 Island
Sideboard
3 Pithing Needle
1 Duress
1 Echoing Truth
3 Massacre
2 Empty the Warrens
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Electrolyze
And this list tied for top 4 at March 11th Eudemonia Mox Emerald Event:
Eric Aune (Gifts)
Maindeck:
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Gifts Univen
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Rebuild
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Mana Drain
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Dark Ritual
2 Duress
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tendril's of Agony
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Recoup
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Snow-covered Island
1 Swamp
Sideboard:
1 Fire/Ice
1 Echoing Truth
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Pithing Needle
3 Massacre
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Duress
1 Rebuild
RG Playing undercosted burn and over-powered creatures since 1994. RG
"I finally figured out what One With Nothing is good for!" says Paul. "Oh yeah? What?" comes the reply. "It comboes with Tarmogoyf!"
True story...
I still love loa, but I suppose I can see justification for cutting it.
You're sb, on the otherhand, looks... not so hawt.
You have too many blasts. I would never run over 3. A few reasons for this: For some odd reason you are running ZERO duresses. This is a huge mistake. The quoted version runs 4 total, in contrast. Duress is simply the best anti control and combo card you have access too. It serriously wins games. Better than blast a lot of the time, since it is premptive. Blasts are okay, duress is amazing.
I think vapor is likely unneccessary. I'm not sure what you would sideboard it in against.
Electrolyze is just terrible. 3 mana cards need to be card drawing engines or game winning blows. They don't need to be fish removal. Against fish, your mana base is under attack, and that extra card is definitly not worth the tempo loss. As such fire/ice is better. On that note, I like dart above the prior too. Mostly, it is really easy to cast, it hits things on seperate turns, so you don't need to waste fire on a single confidant, etc. (serves double duty), creates an essnetial storm of 3 (2 life, and 2 spells), and is very elegant.
Edit: Does anybody have the arguments for Repeal vs Chain of Vapor in MDG? I see benefits of both and am undecided on which to run.
Edit2: I made my decision on the repeal vs chain of vapor, and I prefer chain of vapor over repeal. Now my biggest concern is deciding if my sideboard needs a 2nd duress in it or if it needs rebuild. I'm assuming the rebuild since it does so well vs stax, but duress is so useful since I've put it into my build... I guess I'll put the required card in there though (rebuild).
Edit3: I just got back from Eudemonia Mox Emerald event and made top eight, losing my top 8 match to U/W fish (which I had no practice against yet). The list I used is the one I listed above as my own build. The only two differences are -1 pyroblast -1 R.E.B. +1 Rebuild +1 Duress. I'll post a report when I get a chance.
RG Playing undercosted burn and over-powered creatures since 1994. RG
"I finally figured out what One With Nothing is good for!" says Paul. "Oh yeah? What?" comes the reply. "It comboes with Tarmogoyf!"
True story...
Huh? Gifts is at a severe disadvantage in the Ichorid match-up. This was even expounded in Steven's "Manaless Ichorid Versus Meandeck Gifts" article. Also, I have tested the match-up, extensively... or I should say frustratingly.
This match-up isn't even fun. Even with Tinker/Colossus, Gifts would rarely win, unless it got a turn 1 Colossus. A turn 3 or later Colossus was rarely worth the effort and you still lost with it in play. Tormod's Crypt doesn't even bother Ichorid. Even TWO Crypt's rarely hurt Ichorid. Pithing Needle is a bit more of a hassle, Leyline of the Void is by far the worst, but people hardly play it. Timetwister can be a nuisance, but unless you're gonna combo off with your new hand of 7, you can still lose.
I wouldn't be willing to put Crypt in my pile against Ichorid, because they will give it to you and it's practically dead.
So, test against Ichorid, but don't be too frustrated if you lose, because, it's one of your WORST matches.
-DShell
That being said, it isn't a good matchup, but I wouldn't say its as terrible as stated, simply due to things like etw.
Speaking from tourament experience, I have never lost a match to Ichorid with gifts in a tourament setting. That being said, I have only played Ichorid twice in a tourament setting, and that was 4 months ago (the last time I played magic irl). I was also playing Colossus at the time, which won me one game. Another game was won due to my opponant's inability to draw bazaar, and subsequent mull to 2 I believe. As for the other two games, one was actually hard, but I pulled off a tendrils ftw at 5 life, and the other I dropped an early crypt and tutored up another, which allowed me to eventually win with some goblin tokens.
Regardless, I would be extreemly suprised to see Ichorid at the top tables late in a moderatly sized tourament, as they tend to kill themselves and run into decks that eat them eventually. I also wouldn't expect more than a 50/50 matchup result, but thats only from what I've been told.
In other news: Gifts, recently, has been trying some very strange ideas, including sbing into Children of Korolis. What is ya'lls oppioin on that?
The problem is, with all the disruption that Ichorid packs, Gifts can be in a huge hole. Plus, Gifts can't even counter anything...because it doesn't make a difference. It's basically combo vs combo and you can't even counter their main win conditions.
I don't see how Empty tilts the game in your favor. Empty merely stalls for a whole turn. After which, you're still gonna have infy creatures attacking you...because they all come back.
There's no way I'm adding a 4th color to Gifts, especially for Children of Korolis. That sounds terrible.
-DShell
I mean think about it, They dont have mana. You drop it and take all the damage. Nothing can really happen. Well I play Stax, and in some test matchups, I found that they can't stop Platz, and even if they could, they cant really play around countermagic or Sphere of Resistances(stax).
Just my two cents.
You will very rarely play Ichorid ever. Rely on crypt, or just eat the loss. No reason to devout so much deck space towards combating a deck that you will play maybe once.
You do run countermagic and such.
But yes, Platz is good against other decks, such as combo and even Fish.
But we do have quite a few Ichorid players running around here in the NW.
In the mirror Tendrils, Warrens, means Gifts Loses, you could easily pull this off early without having to build storm 10...
If I'm not mistaken, Dark Ritual and Bitter Ordeal count as 2 alone, so you're right there...
Just my thoughts. I like the card.
Spread the word.
OHHHH - permanent... thank you. My bad.
Spread the word.
RG Playing undercosted burn and over-powered creatures since 1994. RG
"I finally figured out what One With Nothing is good for!" says Paul. "Oh yeah? What?" comes the reply. "It comboes with Tarmogoyf!"
True story...
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=532795
There'll be some kind of replacement (probably not as good though).