Y'all obviously have never experienced a spearman take out a tank.
I dunno, I've played Civ before. It's always awkward to lose a Giant Death Robot to a unit of spearmen.
I don't think many nations on earth would struggle to defeat the middle earth. Remember, in the books, army sizes were in the tens of thousands. Even if Mordor has a few million orks lying around, that's just not going to cut it.
Y'all obviously have never experienced a spearman take out a tank.
I played Civ I. Spearmen and archers routinely took out my tanks, battleships, fighter aircraft, etc.
I think its obvious that the US military would have little issue winning a conventional war vs the whole of Middle Earth. Heck, I'd put my money on a Marine Expeditionary Unit backed by a Carrier Strike Group. Even that would probably be overkill. China and Russia would fare about as well.
In terms of the logistics argument: most countries maintain a Global Strategic Petroleum Reserve, for use in emergencies. The US reserve is designed to maintain enough petroleum for economic and national security use, for 90 days. South Korea has enough to last about 30 days, Thailand has 60 days worth. Most countries maintain enough for two to three months of operation, which for a modern military should be more then enough time to deal with the primitive forces of Middle Earth.
As for military force, just think about it: any 20th/21st century military will have the benefit of accurate aerial reconaissance, backed up not only by uncounterable air strikes but also artillery and naval bombardment with a range advantage measured in miles.
If a Middle Earth army somehow managed to maintain morale through that hell, to meet a modern military on the battlefield, they'd then largely have to get within melee range. Sure, there are ents. But when a modern tank has the aforementioned two kilometer range, coupled with guns that are designed to penetrate steel armor...well...yeah. Not to mention the plethora of AT rockets carried by infantry squads.
This is a fun discussion, but only to the degree that it is fun thinking about how utterly one-sided it is.
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Pretty well, actually. The main gun of an M1 Abrams can fire a penetration round that will punch through a half-meter of steel at a range of two kilometers, and has a listed effective engagement range of twice that. etc etc
Now that Blinking Spirit has blown me out, I'm inclined to agree with you.
Vote: Canada!
Yeah, the vs, as it is set up, is a no brainer. I think it would be more interesting, to pit a sub-set of a military, rather than the whole might of a country's military, vs the forces of middle earth.
For example, I referenced earlier a Marine Expeditionary Unit. Its basically a mini-military, consisting of:
-approx 2200 marines, 1200 of which are ground troops
-4 M1A1 Tanks
-approx 32 Infantry Fighting Vehicles and Humvees
-6 155mm artillery guns
-6 AH1W Cobra helicopter gunships
-6 AV-8B Harrier jets
-25 Helicopters for air assault/troop transport
-1 Amphibious Assault Ship (Basically the small aircraft carrier that houses all this stuff).
-Other support equipment
An MEU is typically accompanied by escort ships, such as submarines and destroyers.
I think that would be a much more interesting fight, that could go either way.
On a related note, a few years back a guy on reddit wrote out a series of posts detailing what might happen if an MEU were to face off against the Roman Empire. Apparently, Hollywood took notice and has offered him a movie deal:
Mexico has a very good chance of winning if we let the cartels fight the war instead of the military.
I have a Mexican classmate in my study program who would often bring this topic up in International Economics classes. If the cartels really are as bad as everyone makes them out to be, then yes, they should be a formidable fighting force… and barring that, you could always get the good people of Middle Earth hooked on the chemical substances produced and win by dependence.
Relatedly to that, I imagine China or Russia would both have a relatively easy time of it as well (though I don't obviously know as much about their self-sustainability as I do about the US.)
Russia is huge, with nine to eleven (depending on the border drawn) time zones under its belt, and is the largest country in the world in terms of landmass, and over a tenth of the total of our planet. Its mere size should be intimidating. China, on the other hand, needs a lot of resources to keep going, and has the world’s largest population to feed. While theoretically that number might be helpful for a battle, I’m pretty sure a starving population will be a liability for the fight.
I think pretty much any first world country with a "modern" military (i.e. pretty much anything with planes and machine guns) would handle the armies of middle earth just fine.
I still have a hard time grasping the idea that small states like The Vatican, Monaco, and Liechtenstein, or even slightly bigger ones like Luxembourg and Belgium, could take on an entire fictional planet just because they have superior firepower. Clearly the good people of MTGS disagree with me though.
Brazil doesn't have a awesome army but I'm pretty our army (in war time) is about as numerous as middle earth and we will have tanks and fighter aircraft which should be enough.
Brazil is also really big, nearly as big as the US, but again, the population may be a liability. Still, I can’t argue against superior firepower anymore. Your post also means we’ve discussed the capabilities of every BRIC country, except India.
You know, I think there's a good chance that *insert your country here* would just be killed off by the Valar. I immediately thought of Numenor when I read the OP. If the Valar decided that *insert your country here* were being jerks, they could just sink *insert your country here* to the bottom of the sea, or similar divine retribution.
As fun as this would be, this shouldn’t be allowed. Sorry, Talore.
But this isn't the "Your Country vs. Sudden Isolation" thread. A win for sudden isolation is not a win for Middle-Earth. That's like saying, "New York City vs. Los Angeles, and by the way there's a meteor heading straight for New York City".
But I am under the impression that logistical problems play a very important role in many Versus Forum matches (so far, every "MTGS vs. X" battle, for example, or even the occasional "stranded on an island" thread). I think it's only fair to consider that each of our countries has to put up with "summoning sickness", since you have very much demonstrated that the overall tech level already gives a huge advantage to any real life nation.
Does not display combat abilities significantly above that of a talented general and personal fighter. What exactly does he do in the books that you think would be especially helpful against a fighter-bomber or main battle tank?
Perhaps not in the books (I don't recall if he did this in the books; it's been a while since I read them, to be honest), but in the movie he does manage to cast a blinding light to a flying trio of winged Nazgul, so I would assume that given line of sight on a jet, he could cast a similar spell to disorient the pilot. Gandalf also has a very good knowledge of explosives and mastery over the element of fire, so the idea of blowing up a tank from underneath (it may take a while for him to discover this weakness) might be possible.
Even if I accept you just making up stuff like this that's unattested in Tolkien's actual books, see what I said earlier about explosive harpoons, and also look into torpedoes and depth charges.
Woah, hold on. I did a cursory Google search before posting to see if there were sea monsters in Middle Earth, and the existence of things like the Watcher in the Water validates that there might (take note I only said might) be something in the ocean to watch out for. It's not like I totally fabricated that out of nothing.
Doing what exactly? This isn't a D&D setting. You don't have wizards casting chain lightning four times per day. (Not that chain lightning four times per day would hack it against machine guns either.)
You know, this makes me wonder what would have happened if I had made it "Your Country vs. Azeroth" (the setting for the Warcraft games) instead. At least there, everyone has access to some pretty potent magic. Then again Middle Earth was probably better known, and even then I wasn't sure if the average real life nation could beat it.
Y'all obviously have never experienced a spearman take out a tank.
Is this actually possible? It makes me think Middle Earth could employ some “Ewoks vs. The Empire” strategy against us, of which there are actually many examples of.
I don't think many nations on earth would struggle to defeat the middle earth. Remember, in the books, army sizes were in the tens of thousands. Even if Mordor has a few million orks lying around, that's just not going to cut it.
Still, having a larger population might be a problem if the country can’t sustain itself for long. It would have to colonize Middle Earth or risk millions dying.
In terms of the logistics argument: most countries maintain a Global Strategic Petroleum Reserve, for use in emergencies. The US reserve is designed to maintain enough petroleum for economic and national security use, for 90 days. South Korea has enough to last about 30 days, Thailand has 60 days worth. Most countries maintain enough for two to three months of operation, which for a modern military should be more then enough time to deal with the primitive forces of Middle Earth.
Wow. This, I did not know. I guess that means we are prepared for alien invasion after all.
That still doesn’t address the potential lack of telecommunications, internet, radio, electricity, food, etc. for the general populace though.
Yeah, the vs, as it is set up, is a no brainer. I think it would be more interesting, to pit a sub-set of a military, rather than the whole might of a country's military, vs the forces of middle earth.
Luckily the “Edit” option still exists.
I changed the OP and the title of the thread, but I’m still not convinced that, with all the logistical matters attached, even the smaller nations of the world could, by themselves, take on Middle Earth with little difficulty. By "small" I mean, "of less land mass and area than Belgium" (no offense meant to any Belgians out there; I’ve visited your country this year and the EU institutions, and your people are some of the kindest I’ve met in Europe).
On a related note, a few years back a guy on reddit wrote out a series of posts detailing what might happen if an MEU were to face off against the Roman Empire. Apparently, Hollywood took notice and has offered him a movie deal:
Okay, I’m editing the OP before this thread becomes too much of a curbstomp battle (though the votes in the poll seem to make this unsalvagable). Or should I start a new thread?
MAJOR EDIT: The original setup was apparently ludicrously imbalanced. My bad. To make it more fair, I'm editing it.
One fully equipped battalion or bridage of the armed forces of the country you live in*
vs.
The combined armed forces and population of Middle Earth**
*Should you live in multiple countries, or consider multiple countires as your homeland, pick one. From there, select one elite unit of your armed forces between 300-3000 soldiers in size. Assume they are fully equipped and ready for combat.
**This is post-Third Age (after the third film/movie in the LOTR trilogy)
Scenario:
You are tasked to select one military unit of the armed forces of your country, roughly the size of 300-3000 soldiers, to fight against the entire population, armies and mythical beasts of Middle Earth. The unit may not be any larger than it is in real life, but comes fully equipped with any vehicles and weapons it would routinely have access to. Your unit sets up base in a secluded mountainous region near The Shire, and the armies of Middle Earth are made aware of your presence through a vision presented to Gandalf, though they don't know your army's full capabilities.
Projected statistics of Middle Earth (for reference): Link.
How does your country's military unit fare in this battle?
Edit: Here was the original scenario... it didn't end well for Middle Earth...
" idea">The idea for this battle came to me in a vision the other night. It's been a while since I set up the last "MTGS vs. X" or "You vs. X" battle, so let's try something completely different this time around.
The combined armed forces and population of the country you live in*
vs.
The combined armed forces and population of Middle Earth**
*Should you live in multiple countries, or consider multiple countires as your homeland, pick one.
**This is post-Third Age (after the third film/movie in the LOTR trilogy)
Scenario:
The country you live in (or call home) is magically transported to Middle Earth, just off the coast, drifting as an island to the West, in Belegaer ("The Great Sea"). Assume that, despite it being the "Age of Men" and a time of great peace all over the known realm at the defeat of Sauron and the destruction of the One Ring, diplomatic talks fail and war breaks out between your country and the entire Middle Earth. That's right; all the races of Middle Earth, regardless of how they feel about each other, have decided to unite against you, because of your superior technology or the fact that they just don't like you.
Note that your country only has access to technology and resources that it would be capable of sustaining by itself. Now that you exist independently in Middle Earth, you're on your own: no calling for international allies, no imports and exports to other countries, and no technology that you wouldn't be able to run unless your utilities and service providers are all available within the country. For example, cellphones would work, for all telecommunication networks exclusive to your country, as would electrical devices, so long as the electricity is produced domestically, cars and planes would only function so long as you had the gasoline to fuel them, etc.
Projected statistics of Middle Earth (for reference): Link.
I participate yearly in a survival challenge in which I am dropped off in the wilderness with 1 days rations, a knife, and no other supplies, and have to find my way home. This is typically several weeks hiking from civilization.
I have personally killed several bears in the course of this challenge, with the use of snares and other traps.
It depends a little on the format of the attack, but picking the SAS seems like a pretty clean choice. I don't know if they could kill everything at once, but I'm pretty confident they could rout any army from middle earth, even combined forces.
Assuming there are no dragons left, although even dragons VS heavy machine gun fire is probably not a very fair fight.
It depends a little on the format of the attack, but picking the SAS seems like a pretty clean choice. I don't know if they could kill everything at once, but I'm pretty confident they could rout any army from middle earth, even combined forces.
Assuming there are no dragons left, although even dragons VS heavy machine gun fire is probably not a very fair fight.
I'm assuming that by SAS, you mean the New Zealand Special Air Service (though Australia calls its Air Force something else; had to Google up SAS to double check, but please correct me if I am wrong, as I don't know much about the structure and chain of command of your military).
Right, it seems the Air Force is OP, but then they have to contend with the fact that they neither have infinite fuel nor ammunition, and they would have to land somewhere eventually. Middle Earth forces can also always hide away below the Dwarven mountains to create a stronghold garrison if they realize that their opponents are capable of such bombardment. They might lose a few cities before such a strategic retreat happens though.
I participate yearly in a survival challenge in which I am dropped off in the wilderness with 1 days rations, a knife, and no other supplies, and have to find my way home. This is typically several weeks hiking from civilization.
I have personally killed several bears in the course of this challenge, with the use of snares and other traps.
It depends a little on the format of the attack, but picking the SAS seems like a pretty clean choice. I don't know if they could kill everything at once, but I'm pretty confident they could rout any army from middle earth, even combined forces.
As an aside, doesn't Australia have more than the SAS/SASR? In fact, I think it has, like, 10 different special/elite force regiments.
As opposed to a solitary one, as New Zealand has. While it seems like New Zealand doesn't pull its weight or care about national or regional defence, there's never really been a need for more. That's what happens when you live on a remote chain of islands and you have fine relations with your neighbours.
SAS may have superior weaponry, but size matters.
Middle Earth's 1,000,000-strong force overwhelms 300–3,000-strong elite force, but it also sustains heavy losses.
I'm assuming that by SAS, you mean the New Zealand Special Air Service (though Australia calls its Air Force something else; had to Google up SAS to double check, but please correct me if I am wrong, as I don't know much about the structure and chain of command of your military).
Right, it seems the Air Force is OP, but then they have to contend with the fact that they neither have infinite fuel nor ammunition, and they would have to land somewhere eventually. Middle Earth forces can also always hide away below the Dwarven mountains to create a stronghold garrison if they realize that their opponents are capable of such bombardment. They might lose a few cities before such a strategic retreat happens though.
Australian, not NZ. We'll claim a lot of things from NZ as being Australian, but not their army
And the SAS is not an air force as such; they're more like the Navy Seals or some other similar special forces unit. Running out of ammunition is a genuine concern, but I'm still confident they could inflict enough damage in the initial engagement(s) to convince the armies of middle earth to sue for peace.
As opposed to a solitary one, as New Zealand has. While it seems like New Zealand doesn't pull its weight or care about national or regional defence, there's never really been a need for more. That's what happens when you live on a remote chain of islands and you have fine relations with your neighbours.
Tell me about it! I currently reside in Austria, and we have no hostile neighbors, but I still have six months of military service to perform starting in December, and a portion of our budget still goes to that obligatory service to the nation. Even if our Elite Gebirgsjäger ("Mountain-Hunter") Units have an advantage of being able to navigate the mountainous terrain of Middle Earth, I still don't see them winning. The battle-hardened 1st Scout Ranger Regiment of my other homeland, the Philippines, might put up a fight if Middle Earth starts using guerrilla tactics, since they've actually got some experience fighting in real combat in recent history up to the present though.
I participate yearly in a survival challenge in which I am dropped off in the wilderness with 1 days rations, a knife, and no other supplies, and have to find my way home. This is typically several weeks hiking from civilization.
I have personally killed several bears in the course of this challenge, with the use of snares and other traps.
Russia is huge, with nine to eleven (depending on the border drawn) time zones under its belt, and is the largest country in the world in terms of landmass, and over a tenth of the total of our planet. Its mere size should be intimidating. China, on the other hand, needs a lot of resources to keep going, and has the world’s largest population to feed. While theoretically that number might be helpful for a battle, I’m pretty sure a starving population will be a liability for the fight.
[/SPOILER]
China is much more potent than you give them credit for. 1) The Chinese gov doesn't particularly care how well their citizens fare. 2) China ranks second in the world for GDP. 3) The Chinese military is extremely capable. They are one of three nations to possess a Stealth fighter, not to mention one of a select group of nations to own an aircraft carrier. I'd put my money on China over Russia.
Woah, hold on. I did a cursory Google search before posting to see if there were sea monsters in Middle Earth, and the existence of things like the Watcher in the Water validates that there might (take note I only said might) be something in the ocean to watch out for. It's not like I totally fabricated that out of nothing.
That still doesn’t address the potential lack of telecommunications, internet, radio, electricity, food, etc. for the general populace though.
Telecom/internet should be largely self-sustaining for most countries. The internet is pretty much just a bunch of routers strung together. While adjustments would have to be made, it would still work in the sense that networks and computers would be interconnected and able to communicate. Military units certainly wouldn't be affected, unless they needed wikipedia
MAJOR EDIT: The original setup was apparently ludicrously imbalanced. My bad. To make it more fair, I'm editing it.
Scenario:
You are tasked to select one military unit of the armed forces of your country, roughly the size of 300-3000 soldiers, to fight against the entire population, armies and mythical beasts of Middle Earth. The unit may not be any larger than it is in real life, but comes fully equipped with any vehicles and weapons it would routinely have access to. Your unit sets up base in a secluded mountainous region near The Shire, and the armies of Middle Earth are made aware of your presence through a vision presented to Gandalf, though they don't know your army's full capabilities.
What's the logistics here? If the military unit in question only arrives with what they can carry/are currently equipped with, its just a matter of time before they're wiped out. If the unit in question has supplies for two weeks of operation, they have a chance.
What are the victory conditions?
I think a Marine MEU (assuming access to amphibious assault ship, two Arleigh Burke class destroyers and a Los Angeles Class attack sub) would be able to put up a very capable fight. Middle Earth forces would be getting rained on by aircraft and cruise missiles for days prior to even seeing their opponent. Cruise missile strikes (conventional) would be able to wipe out ME command and control with impunity.
Still, if given limited resources, and if the victory condition is annihilation, it would just be a matter of time before the MEU is overrun.
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What's the logistics here? If the military unit in question only arrives with what they can carry/are currently equipped with, its just a matter of time before they're wiped out. If the unit in question has supplies for two weeks of operation, they have a chance.
What are the victory conditions?
I think a Marine MEU (assuming access to amphibious assault ship, two Arleigh Burke class destroyers and a Los Angeles Class attack sub) would be able to put up a very capable fight. Middle Earth forces would be getting rained on by aircraft and cruise missiles for days prior to even seeing their opponent. Cruise missile strikes (conventional) would be able to wipe out ME command and control with impunity.
Still, if given limited resources, and if the victory condition is annihilation, it would just be a matter of time before the MEU is overrun.
Well, I suppose it would be fair to grant the military unit access to a generic, fully equipped, and capable base of operations sheltered in a mountainous regions in Middle Earth near The Shire, as well as enough supplies and ammo for a month.
However, with that much given to them, the objective should probably be total conquest of Middle Earth. Thoughts?
I participate yearly in a survival challenge in which I am dropped off in the wilderness with 1 days rations, a knife, and no other supplies, and have to find my way home. This is typically several weeks hiking from civilization.
I have personally killed several bears in the course of this challenge, with the use of snares and other traps.
However, with that much given to them, the objective should probably be total conquest of Middle Earth. Thoughts?
Conquest of that large and decentralized a population with that small a force is impossible by the conventional occupy-and-suppress model. Their best hope would be for a scenario like Alexander's conquest of the Persian Empire: they smash the forces of the current High King in a quick and relatively limited campaign, kill and/or exile him and his loyalists, and just insert themselves into the existing social structure at the top leaving as much intact as possible. Business continues as usual for almost everybody in Middle-Earth, and they have no reason to resist the change in management, as long as they didn't have any particular attachment to the old High King. They'd probably flip their lids over Aragorn, but maybe his son or grandson is more meh.
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Conquest of that large and decentralized a population with that small a force is impossible by the conventional occupy-and-suppress model. Their best hope would be for a scenario like Alexander's conquest of the Persian Empire: they smash the forces of the current High King in a quick and relatively limited campaign, kill and/or exile him and his loyalists, and just insert themselves into the existing social structure at the top leaving as much intact as possible. Business continues as usual for almost everybody in Middle-Earth, and they have no reason to resist the change in management, as long as they didn't have any particular attachment to the old High King. They'd probably flip their lids over Aragorn, but maybe his son or grandson is more meh.
If this could be done, and Middle Earth could do little to stop them, that's still quite impressive, so I'd accept that it would count as win.
Though if I think about it, they still have access to vehicles, so a force of, say, the maximum allowed amount of 3,000, could theoretically have equally many well-equipped and ready ground, air or sea machines at their disposal. Somehow the prospect of even 500 fully-loaded tanks (or even just jeeps or other ground vehicles, really) that can be sustained for a month could still be mighty frightening to Middle Earth's population of around 1,000,000 (which is the high estimate, but should be around accurate if we also count the magical creatures among them), and not all of them are capable fighters.
Now I'd imagine something like this regiment of the U.S. Air Force, which *only* has around 1,800 soldiers and nearly 200 flying machines would strike considerable terror in the hearts of most cities in Middle Earth, and that's not even maxing out the limit of 3,000 troops, nor counting any ground vehicles they might have.
In fact, the nearest enemies to the force are in The Shire, and they don't even have a standing army. I imagine that it would be occupied in less than a day, and already grant a boon in terms of food that should sustain them for quite a while longer. They probably don't even need to spend all that many resources to manage to occupy that one.
I participate yearly in a survival challenge in which I am dropped off in the wilderness with 1 days rations, a knife, and no other supplies, and have to find my way home. This is typically several weeks hiking from civilization.
I have personally killed several bears in the course of this challenge, with the use of snares and other traps.
I'm from the United States. My gut instinct was to nominate DEVGRU, Delta or (as an Airman, my personal favorite) the 24th special Tactics Squadron, however, these units, while very elite, are rather small and exclusive. Instead, I think a larger, tier-two special operations unit would fare better. To that end, I'd recommend the 75th Ranger Regiment. I think they'd have an excellent shot at taking down the LoTR Universe. Also, I texted a friend of mine in the Army upon reading this thread. His response? "Rangers, hands down."
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If this could be done, and Middle Earth could do little to stop them, that's still quite impressive, so I'd accept that it would count as win.
There is zero question that their commanding officer could put his or her butt on the throne in Gondor. That would be a trivial task. The only question would be what happens afterward.
In fact, the nearest enemies to the force are in The Shire, and they don't even have a standing army. I imagine that it would be occupied in less than a day, and already grant a boon in terms of food that should sustain them for quite a while longer. They probably don't even need to spend all that many resources to manage to occupy that one.
Recall that Saruman occupied the Shire pretty easily. Recall also that he was driven out pretty easily once the Shirefolk organized a resistance. If he'd had assault rifles, the hobbits couldn't have driven him out in a frontal assault, but they could still have made the Shire an unproductive resource sink. Effective occupation basically rests on the locals' willingness to be occupied.
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There is zero question that their commanding officer could put his or her butt on the throne in Gondor. That would be a trivial task. The only question would be what happens afterward.
Recall that Saruman occupied the Shire pretty easily. Recall also that he was driven out pretty easily once the Shirefolk organized a resistance. If he'd had assault rifles, the hobbits couldn't have driven him out in a frontal assault, but they could still have made the Shire an unproductive resource sink. Effective occupation basically rests on the locals' willingness to be occupied.
Many of the units being discussed are special operations units... these units do not occupy, at least not primarily, that's infantry's job. They would use guerilla and hit-and-run tactics. The Rangers, in particular, are trained to move and fight through the wilderness while starving.
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There is zero question that their commanding officer could put his or her butt on the throne in Gondor. That would be a trivial task. The only question would be what happens afterward.
With this in mind, I think consession/surrender should be a viable win condition for this fight. Not that any area of Middle Earth is very fond of surrendering to any outside force.
Recall that Saruman occupied the Shire pretty easily. Recall also that he was driven out pretty easily once the Shirefolk organized a resistance. If he'd had assault rifles, the hobbits couldn't have driven him out in a frontal assault, but they could still have made the Shire an unproductive resource sink. Effective occupation basically rests on the locals' willingness to be occupied.
Haha, true. Still, if the armies at hand really have access to weaponry that would, to the Hobbits, be utterly unfathomable, even by Middle Earth standards (which seems to be the case here), this may be an entirely different story altogether.
Many of the units being discussed are special operations units... these units do not occupy, at least not primarily, that's infantry's job. They would use guerilla and hit-and-run tactics. The Rangers, in particular, are trained to move and fight through the wilderness while starving.
This is a good aspect to think about, especially if we surmise that the forces wouldn't be able to hold out for the long term with their limited ammunition and resources. I'm still curious as to which branch of the armed forces would likely be best suited for this job: Navy/Marines, Air Force or Military ground units, since I've heard compelling arguments for all three so far.
Also, doesn't the military in general have really good engineering capability? I read/heard from my history classes that most armies should be very good at being able to gather materials, and build equipment or habitable shelter within a reasonably short period of time. That and every strategy game I've ever played. If we were to include not just the soldiers in the head count, but also grant them support units in the form of workers and medics, would that raise their chances at conquest considerably?
I participate yearly in a survival challenge in which I am dropped off in the wilderness with 1 days rations, a knife, and no other supplies, and have to find my way home. This is typically several weeks hiking from civilization.
I have personally killed several bears in the course of this challenge, with the use of snares and other traps.
Also, doesn't the military in general have really good engineering capability? I read/heard from my history classes that most armies should be very good at being able to gather materials, and build equipment or habitable shelter within a reasonably short period of time. That and every strategy game I've ever played. If we were to include not just the soldiers in the head count, but also grant them support units in the form of workers and medics, would that raise their chances at conquest considerably?
Despite my voting for the 75th Ranger Regiment as the best single unit to pit against Middle Earth, barring the use of nukes, I'd give the U.S. Marine Corps the single best chance as an entire branch of service.
The Marine Corps is a very well rounded force, and includes its own Air Force. Granted, the Army does too, but I tend to lean towards the Marines. The Navy is ruled out as, aside from the SEALs, they are not particularly strong on the ground. The USAF, my personal branch, has some excellent special ops units as well as infantry in the form of TACPs, but these are all specialized roles and, as such, are found in limited numbers.
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I still have a hard time grasping the idea that small states like The Vatican, Monaco, and Liechtenstein, or even slightly bigger ones like Luxembourg and Belgium, could take on an entire fictional planet just because they have superior firepower. Clearly the good people of MTGS disagree with me though.
I don't know what the military might is like in those countries but really all it's going to take is one, yes one, fighter jet and you can take out all of the middle earth armies quite easily. Provided of course you have some sort of base to operate out of for refueling and rearming. So I'm willing to bet those countries would win just fine.
Now, let me explain. The first jet powered fighter planes were invented in the late 40's after WWII. So it stands to reason those countries are going to have at least a couple of them. The only air based combatants in middle earth are the eagles and the evil drake things that the nazgul ride on. Neither one of those is going to go anywhere near as fast as a jet or carry the firepower that a jet can. So there's your air threat taken care of. After that it's a matter of dropping bombs and machine gunning dudes on flybys.
Seriously, we are talking middle ages tech vs. modern tech. I don't get how anyone can say middle earth has any chance in hell in this fight.
Now, let me explain. The first jet powered fighter planes were invented in the late 40's after WWII. So it stands to reason those countries are going to have at least a couple of them. The only air based combatants in middle earth are the eagles and the evil drake things that the nazgul ride on. Neither one of those is going to go anywhere near as fast as a jet or carry the firepower that a jet can. So there's your air threat taken care of. After that it's a matter of dropping bombs and machine gunning dudes on flybys.
Just a slight correction...the first jet fighter was actually invented in 1939, (The HE-139, I believe) although the first to see service was the ME-262, in 1942. Both the Germans and the Brits (the meteor) had multiple squads of jets in combat during the war, although not in large numbers. (The Americans probably had one as well; I forget which. The shooting star was post war, although built/designed during the war. Wait...apparently was in service during the war but saw little or no combat).
Anyway, this point is pretty well true. From a massed armies POV, nothing much can beat a jet. Hell, give me a couple of squadrons of Stukas or equivalent, some time, and a few 262s to take out the dragons, and any pre-WWII army is pretty much toast. (Dragons ARE a more serious air threat, but even if their are some, the 262s would be vastly too quick, and their machineguns and rockets will smite the dragons in short order.)
A modern airforce - even a small portion of one with supplies - would utterly destroy a medieval fighting force.
Alright, the overwhelming arguments in favor of modern military compels me to believe that Middle Earth has no chance.
That said, I am not giving up on the fantasy settings just yet. I'll be setting up a new thread soon, and this time, the opponents will be considerably better equipped and more technologically capable.
I participate yearly in a survival challenge in which I am dropped off in the wilderness with 1 days rations, a knife, and no other supplies, and have to find my way home. This is typically several weeks hiking from civilization.
I have personally killed several bears in the course of this challenge, with the use of snares and other traps.
Alright, the overwhelming arguments in favor of modern military compels me to believe that Middle Earth has no chance.
That said, I am not giving up on the fantasy settings just yet. I'll be setting up a new thread soon, and this time, the opponents will be considerably better equipped and more technologically capable.
Phyrexia would be a formidable enemy for Earth, but I think that's been done.
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It mostly consists of a napalm filled trench around my house and a stack of 1994 pornography in my basement.
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As much as I'm against the OTT view that this card is going to solo tournaments, cure cancer and make Susan Boyle attractive I'm not really a fan of the opposing camp who think it slaughters puppies and sired Justin Bieber.
the problem is: if you really strictly follow the rules and just chose 1 military unit from your country, they dont have access to any kind of modern weapon.
but if you give your 3000 guys any weapons possible, middleearth could not even win with stone giants, sorcerers and whatever they have.
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I dunno, I've played Civ before. It's always awkward to lose a Giant Death Robot to a unit of spearmen.
I don't think many nations on earth would struggle to defeat the middle earth. Remember, in the books, army sizes were in the tens of thousands. Even if Mordor has a few million orks lying around, that's just not going to cut it.
I played Civ I. Spearmen and archers routinely took out my tanks, battleships, fighter aircraft, etc.
I think its obvious that the US military would have little issue winning a conventional war vs the whole of Middle Earth. Heck, I'd put my money on a Marine Expeditionary Unit backed by a Carrier Strike Group. Even that would probably be overkill. China and Russia would fare about as well.
In terms of the logistics argument: most countries maintain a Global Strategic Petroleum Reserve, for use in emergencies. The US reserve is designed to maintain enough petroleum for economic and national security use, for 90 days. South Korea has enough to last about 30 days, Thailand has 60 days worth. Most countries maintain enough for two to three months of operation, which for a modern military should be more then enough time to deal with the primitive forces of Middle Earth.
As for military force, just think about it: any 20th/21st century military will have the benefit of accurate aerial reconaissance, backed up not only by uncounterable air strikes but also artillery and naval bombardment with a range advantage measured in miles.
If a Middle Earth army somehow managed to maintain morale through that hell, to meet a modern military on the battlefield, they'd then largely have to get within melee range. Sure, there are ents. But when a modern tank has the aforementioned two kilometer range, coupled with guns that are designed to penetrate steel armor...well...yeah. Not to mention the plethora of AT rockets carried by infantry squads.
This is a fun discussion, but only to the degree that it is fun thinking about how utterly one-sided it is.
UBW Sharuum
BR Olivia Voldaren
UR Jhoira
URG Riku
U Vendilion Clique
That's quite incredible. I had no idea!
Now that Blinking Spirit has blown me out, I'm inclined to agree with you.
Vote: Canada!
Yeah, the vs, as it is set up, is a no brainer. I think it would be more interesting, to pit a sub-set of a military, rather than the whole might of a country's military, vs the forces of middle earth.
For example, I referenced earlier a Marine Expeditionary Unit. Its basically a mini-military, consisting of:
-approx 2200 marines, 1200 of which are ground troops
-4 M1A1 Tanks
-approx 32 Infantry Fighting Vehicles and Humvees
-6 155mm artillery guns
-6 AH1W Cobra helicopter gunships
-6 AV-8B Harrier jets
-25 Helicopters for air assault/troop transport
-1 Amphibious Assault Ship (Basically the small aircraft carrier that houses all this stuff).
-Other support equipment
An MEU is typically accompanied by escort ships, such as submarines and destroyers.
I think that would be a much more interesting fight, that could go either way.
On a related note, a few years back a guy on reddit wrote out a series of posts detailing what might happen if an MEU were to face off against the Roman Empire. Apparently, Hollywood took notice and has offered him a movie deal:
http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/k067x/could_i_destroy_the_entire_roman_empire_during/c2giwm4
UBW Sharuum
BR Olivia Voldaren
UR Jhoira
URG Riku
U Vendilion Clique
Let me address a few posts:
I have a Mexican classmate in my study program who would often bring this topic up in International Economics classes. If the cartels really are as bad as everyone makes them out to be, then yes, they should be a formidable fighting force… and barring that, you could always get the good people of Middle Earth hooked on the chemical substances produced and win by dependence.
Russia is huge, with nine to eleven (depending on the border drawn) time zones under its belt, and is the largest country in the world in terms of landmass, and over a tenth of the total of our planet. Its mere size should be intimidating. China, on the other hand, needs a lot of resources to keep going, and has the world’s largest population to feed. While theoretically that number might be helpful for a battle, I’m pretty sure a starving population will be a liability for the fight.
I still have a hard time grasping the idea that small states like The Vatican, Monaco, and Liechtenstein, or even slightly bigger ones like Luxembourg and Belgium, could take on an entire fictional planet just because they have superior firepower. Clearly the good people of MTGS disagree with me though.
Brazil is also really big, nearly as big as the US, but again, the population may be a liability. Still, I can’t argue against superior firepower anymore. Your post also means we’ve discussed the capabilities of every BRIC country, except India.
As fun as this would be, this shouldn’t be allowed. Sorry, Talore.
But I am under the impression that logistical problems play a very important role in many Versus Forum matches (so far, every "MTGS vs. X" battle, for example, or even the occasional "stranded on an island" thread). I think it's only fair to consider that each of our countries has to put up with "summoning sickness", since you have very much demonstrated that the overall tech level already gives a huge advantage to any real life nation.
Perhaps not in the books (I don't recall if he did this in the books; it's been a while since I read them, to be honest), but in the movie he does manage to cast a blinding light to a flying trio of winged Nazgul, so I would assume that given line of sight on a jet, he could cast a similar spell to disorient the pilot. Gandalf also has a very good knowledge of explosives and mastery over the element of fire, so the idea of blowing up a tank from underneath (it may take a while for him to discover this weakness) might be possible.
Woah, hold on. I did a cursory Google search before posting to see if there were sea monsters in Middle Earth, and the existence of things like the Watcher in the Water validates that there might (take note I only said might) be something in the ocean to watch out for. It's not like I totally fabricated that out of nothing.
You know, this makes me wonder what would have happened if I had made it "Your Country vs. Azeroth" (the setting for the Warcraft games) instead. At least there, everyone has access to some pretty potent magic. Then again Middle Earth was probably better known, and even then I wasn't sure if the average real life nation could beat it.
Is this actually possible? It makes me think Middle Earth could employ some “Ewoks vs. The Empire” strategy against us, of which there are actually many examples of.
Still, having a larger population might be a problem if the country can’t sustain itself for long. It would have to colonize Middle Earth or risk millions dying.
Wow. This, I did not know. I guess that means we are prepared for alien invasion after all.
That still doesn’t address the potential lack of telecommunications, internet, radio, electricity, food, etc. for the general populace though.
Also a very large country, just after Russia (though definitely not as big). Should put up a good fight.
Luckily the “Edit” option still exists.
I changed the OP and the title of the thread, but I’m still not convinced that, with all the logistical matters attached, even the smaller nations of the world could, by themselves, take on Middle Earth with little difficulty. By "small" I mean, "of less land mass and area than Belgium" (no offense meant to any Belgians out there; I’ve visited your country this year and the EU institutions, and your people are some of the kindest I’ve met in Europe).
Here's a list of countries in our world by size of land mass (in case anyone wants to give it a go).
Now that’s an interesting concept indeed!
Okay, I’m editing the OP before this thread becomes too much of a curbstomp battle (though the votes in the poll seem to make this unsalvagable). Or should I start a new thread?
MAJOR EDIT: The original setup was apparently ludicrously imbalanced. My bad. To make it more fair, I'm editing it.
One fully equipped battalion or bridage of the armed forces of the country you live in*
vs.
The combined armed forces and population of Middle Earth**
*Should you live in multiple countries, or consider multiple countires as your homeland, pick one. From there, select one elite unit of your armed forces between 300-3000 soldiers in size. Assume they are fully equipped and ready for combat.
**This is post-Third Age (after the third film/movie in the LOTR trilogy)
Scenario:
You are tasked to select one military unit of the armed forces of your country, roughly the size of 300-3000 soldiers, to fight against the entire population, armies and mythical beasts of Middle Earth. The unit may not be any larger than it is in real life, but comes fully equipped with any vehicles and weapons it would routinely have access to. Your unit sets up base in a secluded mountainous region near The Shire, and the armies of Middle Earth are made aware of your presence through a vision presented to Gandalf, though they don't know your army's full capabilities.
Projected statistics of Middle Earth (for reference): Link.
How does your country's military unit fare in this battle?
Edit: Here was the original scenario... it didn't end well for Middle Earth...
The combined armed forces and population of the country you live in*
vs.
The combined armed forces and population of Middle Earth**
*Should you live in multiple countries, or consider multiple countires as your homeland, pick one.
**This is post-Third Age (after the third film/movie in the LOTR trilogy)
Scenario:
The country you live in (or call home) is magically transported to Middle Earth, just off the coast, drifting as an island to the West, in Belegaer ("The Great Sea"). Assume that, despite it being the "Age of Men" and a time of great peace all over the known realm at the defeat of Sauron and the destruction of the One Ring, diplomatic talks fail and war breaks out between your country and the entire Middle Earth. That's right; all the races of Middle Earth, regardless of how they feel about each other, have decided to unite against you, because of your superior technology or the fact that they just don't like you.
Note that your country only has access to technology and resources that it would be capable of sustaining by itself. Now that you exist independently in Middle Earth, you're on your own: no calling for international allies, no imports and exports to other countries, and no technology that you wouldn't be able to run unless your utilities and service providers are all available within the country. For example, cellphones would work, for all telecommunication networks exclusive to your country, as would electrical devices, so long as the electricity is produced domestically, cars and planes would only function so long as you had the gasoline to fuel them, etc.
Projected statistics of Middle Earth (for reference): Link.
How does your country fare in this battle?
How well do you do against one?
Quite. A spearman is 2 power. A tank is 8. A veteran spearman in a fortess on a mountain wlll turn a tank into swiss cheese.
...
..
.
Er, sorry. It's a Civilization meme.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Assuming there are no dragons left, although even dragons VS heavy machine gun fire is probably not a very fair fight.
I'm assuming that by SAS, you mean the New Zealand Special Air Service (though Australia calls its Air Force something else; had to Google up SAS to double check, but please correct me if I am wrong, as I don't know much about the structure and chain of command of your military).
Right, it seems the Air Force is OP, but then they have to contend with the fact that they neither have infinite fuel nor ammunition, and they would have to land somewhere eventually. Middle Earth forces can also always hide away below the Dwarven mountains to create a stronghold garrison if they realize that their opponents are capable of such bombardment. They might lose a few cities before such a strategic retreat happens though.
How well do you do against one?
As an aside, doesn't Australia have more than the SAS/SASR? In fact, I think it has, like, 10 different special/elite force regiments.
As opposed to a solitary one, as New Zealand has. While it seems like New Zealand doesn't pull its weight or care about national or regional defence, there's never really been a need for more. That's what happens when you live on a remote chain of islands and you have fine relations with your neighbours.
SAS may have superior weaponry, but size matters.
Middle Earth's 1,000,000-strong force overwhelms 300–3,000-strong elite force, but it also sustains heavy losses.
Australian, not NZ. We'll claim a lot of things from NZ as being Australian, but not their army
And the SAS is not an air force as such; they're more like the Navy Seals or some other similar special forces unit. Running out of ammunition is a genuine concern, but I'm still confident they could inflict enough damage in the initial engagement(s) to convince the armies of middle earth to sue for peace.
Aha, I thought so, given that you're writing from Canberra. Thanks for the info!
Tell me about it! I currently reside in Austria, and we have no hostile neighbors, but I still have six months of military service to perform starting in December, and a portion of our budget still goes to that obligatory service to the nation. Even if our Elite Gebirgsjäger ("Mountain-Hunter") Units have an advantage of being able to navigate the mountainous terrain of Middle Earth, I still don't see them winning. The battle-hardened 1st Scout Ranger Regiment of my other homeland, the Philippines, might put up a fight if Middle Earth starts using guerrilla tactics, since they've actually got some experience fighting in real combat in recent history up to the present though.
How well do you do against one?
China is much more potent than you give them credit for. 1) The Chinese gov doesn't particularly care how well their citizens fare. 2) China ranks second in the world for GDP. 3) The Chinese military is extremely capable. They are one of three nations to possess a Stealth fighter, not to mention one of a select group of nations to own an aircraft carrier. I'd put my money on China over Russia.
One conventional, mk 48 torpedo > Watcher
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vaImLvZbPw
Telecom/internet should be largely self-sustaining for most countries. The internet is pretty much just a bunch of routers strung together. While adjustments would have to be made, it would still work in the sense that networks and computers would be interconnected and able to communicate. Military units certainly wouldn't be affected, unless they needed wikipedia
What's the logistics here? If the military unit in question only arrives with what they can carry/are currently equipped with, its just a matter of time before they're wiped out. If the unit in question has supplies for two weeks of operation, they have a chance.
What are the victory conditions?
I think a Marine MEU (assuming access to amphibious assault ship, two Arleigh Burke class destroyers and a Los Angeles Class attack sub) would be able to put up a very capable fight. Middle Earth forces would be getting rained on by aircraft and cruise missiles for days prior to even seeing their opponent. Cruise missile strikes (conventional) would be able to wipe out ME command and control with impunity.
Still, if given limited resources, and if the victory condition is annihilation, it would just be a matter of time before the MEU is overrun.
UBW Sharuum
BR Olivia Voldaren
UR Jhoira
URG Riku
U Vendilion Clique
Well, I suppose it would be fair to grant the military unit access to a generic, fully equipped, and capable base of operations sheltered in a mountainous regions in Middle Earth near The Shire, as well as enough supplies and ammo for a month.
However, with that much given to them, the objective should probably be total conquest of Middle Earth. Thoughts?
How well do you do against one?
Conquest of that large and decentralized a population with that small a force is impossible by the conventional occupy-and-suppress model. Their best hope would be for a scenario like Alexander's conquest of the Persian Empire: they smash the forces of the current High King in a quick and relatively limited campaign, kill and/or exile him and his loyalists, and just insert themselves into the existing social structure at the top leaving as much intact as possible. Business continues as usual for almost everybody in Middle-Earth, and they have no reason to resist the change in management, as long as they didn't have any particular attachment to the old High King. They'd probably flip their lids over Aragorn, but maybe his son or grandson is more meh.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
If this could be done, and Middle Earth could do little to stop them, that's still quite impressive, so I'd accept that it would count as win.
Though if I think about it, they still have access to vehicles, so a force of, say, the maximum allowed amount of 3,000, could theoretically have equally many well-equipped and ready ground, air or sea machines at their disposal. Somehow the prospect of even 500 fully-loaded tanks (or even just jeeps or other ground vehicles, really) that can be sustained for a month could still be mighty frightening to Middle Earth's population of around 1,000,000 (which is the high estimate, but should be around accurate if we also count the magical creatures among them), and not all of them are capable fighters.
Now I'd imagine something like this regiment of the U.S. Air Force, which *only* has around 1,800 soldiers and nearly 200 flying machines would strike considerable terror in the hearts of most cities in Middle Earth, and that's not even maxing out the limit of 3,000 troops, nor counting any ground vehicles they might have.
In fact, the nearest enemies to the force are in The Shire, and they don't even have a standing army. I imagine that it would be occupied in less than a day, and already grant a boon in terms of food that should sustain them for quite a while longer. They probably don't even need to spend all that many resources to manage to occupy that one.
How well do you do against one?
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Recall that Saruman occupied the Shire pretty easily. Recall also that he was driven out pretty easily once the Shirefolk organized a resistance. If he'd had assault rifles, the hobbits couldn't have driven him out in a frontal assault, but they could still have made the Shire an unproductive resource sink. Effective occupation basically rests on the locals' willingness to be occupied.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Many of the units being discussed are special operations units... these units do not occupy, at least not primarily, that's infantry's job. They would use guerilla and hit-and-run tactics. The Rangers, in particular, are trained to move and fight through the wilderness while starving.
Many thanks to ChibiSwan of The Ugly Swan for the great banner!
With this in mind, I think consession/surrender should be a viable win condition for this fight. Not that any area of Middle Earth is very fond of surrendering to any outside force.
Haha, true. Still, if the armies at hand really have access to weaponry that would, to the Hobbits, be utterly unfathomable, even by Middle Earth standards (which seems to be the case here), this may be an entirely different story altogether.
This is a good aspect to think about, especially if we surmise that the forces wouldn't be able to hold out for the long term with their limited ammunition and resources. I'm still curious as to which branch of the armed forces would likely be best suited for this job: Navy/Marines, Air Force or Military ground units, since I've heard compelling arguments for all three so far.
Also, doesn't the military in general have really good engineering capability? I read/heard from my history classes that most armies should be very good at being able to gather materials, and build equipment or habitable shelter within a reasonably short period of time. That and every strategy game I've ever played. If we were to include not just the soldiers in the head count, but also grant them support units in the form of workers and medics, would that raise their chances at conquest considerably?
How well do you do against one?
Despite my voting for the 75th Ranger Regiment as the best single unit to pit against Middle Earth, barring the use of nukes, I'd give the U.S. Marine Corps the single best chance as an entire branch of service.
The Marine Corps is a very well rounded force, and includes its own Air Force. Granted, the Army does too, but I tend to lean towards the Marines. The Navy is ruled out as, aside from the SEALs, they are not particularly strong on the ground. The USAF, my personal branch, has some excellent special ops units as well as infantry in the form of TACPs, but these are all specialized roles and, as such, are found in limited numbers.
Many thanks to ChibiSwan of The Ugly Swan for the great banner!
I don't know what the military might is like in those countries but really all it's going to take is one, yes one, fighter jet and you can take out all of the middle earth armies quite easily. Provided of course you have some sort of base to operate out of for refueling and rearming. So I'm willing to bet those countries would win just fine.
Now, let me explain. The first jet powered fighter planes were invented in the late 40's after WWII. So it stands to reason those countries are going to have at least a couple of them. The only air based combatants in middle earth are the eagles and the evil drake things that the nazgul ride on. Neither one of those is going to go anywhere near as fast as a jet or carry the firepower that a jet can. So there's your air threat taken care of. After that it's a matter of dropping bombs and machine gunning dudes on flybys.
Seriously, we are talking middle ages tech vs. modern tech. I don't get how anyone can say middle earth has any chance in hell in this fight.
Just a slight correction...the first jet fighter was actually invented in 1939, (The HE-139, I believe) although the first to see service was the ME-262, in 1942. Both the Germans and the Brits (the meteor) had multiple squads of jets in combat during the war, although not in large numbers. (The Americans probably had one as well; I forget which. The shooting star was post war, although built/designed during the war. Wait...apparently was in service during the war but saw little or no combat).
Anyway, this point is pretty well true. From a massed armies POV, nothing much can beat a jet. Hell, give me a couple of squadrons of Stukas or equivalent, some time, and a few 262s to take out the dragons, and any pre-WWII army is pretty much toast. (Dragons ARE a more serious air threat, but even if their are some, the 262s would be vastly too quick, and their machineguns and rockets will smite the dragons in short order.)
A modern airforce - even a small portion of one with supplies - would utterly destroy a medieval fighting force.
That said, I am not giving up on the fantasy settings just yet. I'll be setting up a new thread soon, and this time, the opponents will be considerably better equipped and more technologically capable.
How well do you do against one?
Phyrexia would be a formidable enemy for Earth, but I think that's been done.
Many thanks to ChibiSwan of The Ugly Swan for the great banner!
but if you give your 3000 guys any weapons possible, middleearth could not even win with stone giants, sorcerers and whatever they have.