Welcome, one and all, to the Tournament of Champions! For those of you who might not have paid attention to the tournament-related threads on the Versus Forum for the past few months, this is a collaboration of members of MTGS who have nominated teams, submitted write ups, and have otherwise invested time and energy to create a single-elimination tournament consisting of 32 different "tag teams", pitted against each other in a supreme fighting championship. Who will decide the ultimate winner? Why YOU of course!
There will now be two matches every week, each one also lasting a week (except semi-finals and finals, those last for two weeks each) until the conclusion of the tournament, and you're just in time for Round 1.
One of this week’s matches:
Team "Final Fantasy Villains" - Kefka and Sephiroth
The members of both teams are transported to a different dimension with all information about their opponents “uploaded” into their minds. They have 30 minutes to prepare and talk to each other (they don’t know anything about each other as teammates, save for any experience from previous matches of this same tournament), and will also have full access to any technology, magic, weaponry, resources, etc. which they would routinely be able to use from their respective universes. Teammates may share resources with each other. Afterwards, both teams are teleported to the randomly chosen plane, which has mystically sealed off so that none of them can escape the battlefield in any way. The team that manages to knock out and/or kill both members of the opposing team will be declared the winner. There is no time limit.
Write ups for both teams:
Team "Final Fantasy Villains" - Kefka and Sephiroth
The archetypal Final Fantasy villains, these two bear such similarities and powers that it's an eternal debate as to who the better villain was. Using their knowledge over the magics of their universe, as well as their desire for ultimate power, their evil drive would take them far if they worked together.
Team "Psychic Monsters" - Nicol Bolas and Mewtwo
How might they be if they ever met up? After the end of the Totally-can't-think-of-a-good-name war, Nicol Bolas was finnally defeated by a group of Little Girls and their over-protective moms. "Back to the drawing board then" he thinks as he planes-walks to his hidden base on an unknown world, as he's sitting on the couch he turns to the multi-verse news, where he sees this magnificant creature, with remarkable Psychic powers much like his own. After much studying on this creature he comes to find out it's name, Mewtwo. and he knows what must be done. He build up all of his mental strength to P-walk to this new location he's never been to, after preparing for what, he doesn't know he's off.
On this new world he sees remarkable things, little rats shooting electricity, wingless dragons breathing fire, even a giant turtle shooting water. But not what he was looking for. It is said that what/who he is looking for is very rare and hard to find. After years of searching he finally come to the place of it's home. A lone island in the middle of a giant sea. When he knocks on the door there is no answer, just this little camera atop the door looking at him. He finally gets angry after a few tries and blasts his way through the door. When he steps through the smoky ruins of the frame he is hit by some kind of energy blast, and he can feel someone trying to infiltrate his thoughts. "Who is this, some powerful blue planeswalker?" He yelled through the smoke. "No, it is I, the most powerful of pokemon" says the voice, but not out loud, in his head. "What do you want with me?" said the voice. "I would ask for a partnership" says Bolas in his head to the voice. "One with great power beyond your wildest imagination." a slight pause. "What kind of power?" says the voice, while the smoke is all but settled steps out this creature Bolas has been seeking. "Power to rule the muti-verse" and the creature looked confused. "What is this 'Multi-verse'' it asks. "Agree to help me and I shall Show you" Replied Bolas.
"Okay" Said the creature, "I am Mewtwo" So the two talked for hours and hours exchanging information and explaining the different world. Bolas explained about planeswalking, and being a walker, and the multi-verse, while Mewtwo explained about his world and how humans catch "pokemon". Then they form a partnership to take over the Multi-verse. But as they go to planeswalk away, something goes amiss and they are abruptly thrown into this arena. Where high above their head there seems to be a poll going, and they feel like all of their powers have been drained. but as the poll goes up for their side they start regaining their powers, and some mystical force beyond anything they can do is putting them up against these strange enemies that they've never seen before. What will happen if they win?
How do I vote for the team I like? Well, I'm glad you asked...
This tournament uses a “Dual-Voting System” in which every user on MTGS may vote twice, once on the poll of the thread, and once by posting on the thread itself (by explicitly stating “I vote for team *insert name* because *insert reason*” in a post on the thread). You may spread these votes as you wish (you can vote anonymously on the poll for one team, but express your vote publicly through a post for another), or use them both to vote for the same team, or only vote once (using either method). In the end, the total of both "poll" and "post" votes will be used to determine a winner. In the event of a tie between total votes, the team with the most votes posted publicly on the thread itself shall be declared the winner, and move on to the next round. You only have one week to vote (two weeks for the semi-finals and finals), and the poll automatically closes on Sunday, 12MN (GMT +1). Only posts that occur before that time will be counted as valid votes.
Now, who wins this match? Root for your favorites now!
Round 1
Match 1: "Godslayer" vs. "Wizard Guide" - Team "Wizard Guide" (25 - 39)
Match 2: "Cybernetic Cannon" vs. "By Your Powers Combined" - "By Your Powers Combined" (21 - 24)
Match 3: "Smash" vs. "Metal Men" - (22 - 27)
Match 4: "Justice For All" vs. "Speed" - "Justice For All" (25 - 20)
Match 5: "Fun Size" vs. "Pest Control Problem" - "Fun Size" (22 - 14)
Match 6: "Rescue the Princess" vs. "Disney Villains" - "Rescue the Princess" (24 - 18)
Match 7: "Basketballers" vs. "Electromagnetic Pulse" - "Electromagnetic Pulse" (21 - 25)
Match 8: "Dark Lords" vs. "Human Mental Prowess" - "Human Mental Prowess" (30 - 32)
Match 9: "Crazy Supernatural Killers" vs. "Chaotic Genius" - ???
Match 10: "Final Fantasy Villains" vs. "Psychic Monsters" - ???
I participate yearly in a survival challenge in which I am dropped off in the wilderness with 1 days rations, a knife, and no other supplies, and have to find my way home. This is typically several weeks hiking from civilization.
I have personally killed several bears in the course of this challenge, with the use of snares and other traps.
Now this is an interesting match, I foresee so many problems for both sides,
1) the landscape, it kills everyone! The flying/dodgers have an edge here,
2) which version of the ff7 villein are we using the final boss who was fused with all the mako energy or the "Shinra solder" version that while grossly powerful isn't quite AS grossly powerful.
3) ALL of these characters work alone, Bolas and mew two likely might have a (rather small) edge here as Mew two as a pokemon is used to be subordinate to another, (like in all the games where my masterball caught him) which is the position he is in with bolas, (in which case bolas just got one of the BEST minions ever)
4) their combat styles are very different and represented with VERY huge variance in numeric styles, Bolas as a MTG card is only a 7/7 and story line is described as near godlike, where as mew two is a pokemon in the hundreds, However cannon also described as "god like" in the movie and what not. the ff villeins are both very power with 10,000 hp's and VERY high stats, both harbingers of the apocolips but both not described as (figurity) powerful as godlike nature of the other two (although mewtwo did control the weather and sort of threatened to flood the world) This makes scaling their ability's more difficult.
I am going to list the biggest accomplishment for each character to try and give a sense of the scope of their power (only things they acomplished will count)
Mew Two (turned main protagonist in a childrens show to stone)
Bolas (merged all the mana in an entire land into himself)
Sepheroth, (Killed Main heros girl friend) Kefka ( Manipulated royalty )
I am not sure how this will play out, I have an inite leaning toward Bolas and Mewtwo if only because I feel they will work better and more willingly as a team and BOTH CAN FLY (so harder to hit them in the lands effect) however its close.
Warp778 is correct; it was decided in the "nominations" and "preliminaries" thread that we wanted to have the post-mending, Neo-Walker Bolas in this tournament, and not the Oldwalker Bolas who could allegedly destroy an entire Plane just by showing up on it. I keep wondering how difficult that makes summer vacation for him...
To answer some of draftguy2's queries (and to also provide my "devil's advocate" argument for the FF villains, who are currently trailing behind in the poll):
1. I think it is safe to assume that, like most Final Fantasy villains, Kefka and Sephiroth begin the match in their humanoid forms, and then gradually transform into different, more powerful forms while the match goes on (not a far stretch of the imagination, really, since we already saw this with the Disney Villains, who have a similar trick).
2. While it is true that it would be quantitively difficult to weigh their stats from the different games they come from, the fun comes in the qualitative arguments we can gather from additional sources. After all, Bolas is supported by books and MTG lore, Mewtwo is supported by a TV series and a movie (as well as other games outside of the main Pokémon realm; Smash Bros. and the TCG come to mind), Sephiroth also has a movie (as well as other video games outside of the main FF ream; Kingdom Hearts I and II and Ehrgeiz come to mind) and Kefka is just iconic. It's not like we're going to run out of material to weigh the power levels of these four.
3. Kefka and Sephiroth can fly, too. Almost every version of Sephiroth I have seen has granted him some sort of levitation or flying ability. In the main game, he could do it in his humanoid form, and in the final battle he has seven wings (like Kefka, who also displayed flight in his game) and spends the match floating around. Kingdom Hearts I and II flat out give him his One Winged Angel form, arguably the hardest optional boss in both games, and he can fly in that one, too. If I had to envision both villains, they would probably appear to each other in their humanoid forms and find they have access to the ability to transform into their other forms at will, meaning yes, they could fly if they wanted to.
and lastly...
In Advent Children, Sephiroth is able to display flight and supreme swordsmanship with his Masamune that can cut a building clean in half, even in a severely weakened form.
4. Kefka and Sephiroth are villains cut of the same cloth, much like Doom and Lex, Palpatine and Voldemort, Jafar and Maleficent, etc., and while all of them are loners who prefer doing things their way, the "supervillain team up" trope is a very old one indeed, and no one seemed to argue that any of the villains wouldn't cooperate with each other until now (except Magneto and Static, but that's because Static isn't a villain), so I think that both teams have a lot of potential synergy. Sure, they'll be afraid that their partners will backstab them at any given time, but they should be able to work together to some extent.
Flight might be a big advantage in any arena, but I'd argue that all four of them can do that here, and Bolas and Mewtwo aren't the only one with cooperative synergy, so I hope those are not the only reasons you're deciding on "Psychic Monsters".
I participate yearly in a survival challenge in which I am dropped off in the wilderness with 1 days rations, a knife, and no other supplies, and have to find my way home. This is typically several weeks hiking from civilization.
I have personally killed several bears in the course of this challenge, with the use of snares and other traps.
Bolas could probably crush them all, but I just want to point out that his appearances in Advent Children, Crisis Core, and Kingdom Hearts have made Sephiroth into a pretty legitimate badass. He's blindingly fast, he flies, he teleports, he's durable, he wrecks skyscrapers, and he casts some pretty potent magic. Nothing like Bolas and his mind-frag touch, but not exactly weak either.
Also, Kefka is weird in that his power level depends on how many espers he's drained magic from. In his last showing before he
becomes God
he was projecting illusions, annihilating dozens of espers in one blow, and completely shrugging off very powerful attacks.
Bolas is extremely powerful at the worst of times, but if we take Test of Metal to be canon, his ability to clockwork just makes him insanely difficult to beat. Tezzeret had to kill Bolas hundreds of times over on the Island, and it's revealed at the end that that wasn't even Bolas - it was a weaker clone sent to do some dirty work. This dragon is immensly powerful.
Of course, Final Fantasy has its own brand of time magic as well. Even Bolas would have a tough time dealing with Earth-shattering meteors and reality warping magic. Leaving magic aside for a sec, I'd have to say that Sephiroth's got this one in the bag physically - he's been shown to beat scarier things than a 60 ton dragon without breaking a sweat.
I don't know Mewtwo and Kefka as well, but this is a really tough one to call. I'm leaning Bolas just for the genius and cunning.
Destroying a building, I am sorry poring is NOT that impressive in this match up. ALL of these competitors have destroyed large landscapes. (in the movie mewtwo created his own arena from a leveled island, Bolas's carnage is well establish, as is Kefka's. These guys ALL are mega bit hitters, they ALL are "I can destroy the world muhahahahahhaha" calbure bad guys, I am looking at small incremental bonus, While both Sepheroth and Kefka have worked together with others, in pokemon, its more natural, they are less likely to think the other guy is going to stab me in the back, so I quaily it as a better choice, I didn't realism that they both could fly so that makes things more interesting, I am not sure how FF villan's defense against psychic effects are. Bolas isn't some random shadow dragon, he would eat FF dragons for breakfast, I think you are vastly underestimating just how SMART bolas is. the guy is activity looking in to ways to regain OLD walker power, (and slowly succeeding) That being said, I am 100% sure that Bolas/Mew two will underestimate Team FF villan even with all the pre presented evidence, they are well known for undervaluing an enemy so I give a small edge to FF bad guys here. (however they have also been known to underestimate ) Combat experience I will give to Mewtwo/bolas Mewtwo comes from a world where the entire world revolves around combat, like 95% of your life is spent in fighting and ONLY fighting. Bolas is OLD and been fighting alot. I don't think even with solder training that ffvillans will be able to match raw experience in fighting.
I like this match a lot
Probably because I know a lot about all fighters except Sephiroth
I will do some research before I make my vote
I find this attitude commendible, and encourage others to also do some research (or at the very least share what they know about each character on the thread) so that it can facilitate this match. Seems we have two very hard ones to call this week.
Now, to answer both of you: Sephiroth in his weakest form (when he was still mortal and part of SOLDIER), is capable of cutting through a futuristic building made of metal with his blade without even showing any physical strain. This is best seen in one of the videos that The Great Lobachevsky linked to, namely the Crisis Core one, which is a prequel to FFVII (and then his power level starts to scale up). When he started out in SOLDIER, he became the finest among them, capable of hunting down superpowered monsters... and that was back then, before he went mad and decided to go for ultimate power.
In my opinion, Sephiroth will probably start the battle in this aforementioned mortal form, and at one point pull out his theme music and go One Winged Angel on the Psychic Monsters. Then he'll not only be able to *just* slash through steel like a hot knife through butter, but he'll be able to teleport, fly, attack and combo even faster with his masamune, summon a great degree of powerful magic that will either drain his opponents (like Heartless Angel) or otherwise bombard them with cosmic forces (like Meteors). You can look at the Kingdom Hearts I and II footage of him for more reference when it comes to this one.
If that's still not enough to impress you, we can go into Safer Sephiroth territory, where he can summon (and survive the impact of) a Supernova capable of consuming several planets of our solar system (well, Pluto isn't a planet anymore, and it may just be a hyperbolic representation of power, but you have to admit, it's awesome), among other things.
That said, I agree with you in that all four of them have had incredibly impressive feats. However, it seems that people are hesitant to vote because of lack of knowledge (which is a good attitude; that keeps everyone honest). Judging by the replies to this thread, it seems everyone who posted is familiar with at least one or two of the four characters, so please share your knowledge, since a great deal of this match will be based on the arguments on both sides and showing what each character can do, in order to influence the voters properly. If everyone exchanges information in a transparent manner, it would help everyone else, too.
Whatever any of you know about any of the four would help everyone greatly when it comes to deciding who to vote for. Your lobbying can and will make a difference here!
I participate yearly in a survival challenge in which I am dropped off in the wilderness with 1 days rations, a knife, and no other supplies, and have to find my way home. This is typically several weeks hiking from civilization.
I have personally killed several bears in the course of this challenge, with the use of snares and other traps.
While Meteor's power is great, their are two problems with it, 1) It NEVER kills anyone, the attack it self will NOT kill anyone (its all gravity based damage which in the ff universe can not kill anyone) and two, its all graphic, like a summon, (in fact the game itself calls it a summon) so I would be hesitate to even allow it in this battle (would it not be summoning aid from an outside source? if doom isn't allowed doom bots and Cratos isn't allowed to summon his raw armour battalion why is this guy allowed his meteor?) The planets are back in place each time he summons it which suggests it can't actually destroy the planets.
Yes his weakest form he destroyed a building, Mew two in his weakest form with power suppressor's on managed to obliterate a criminal empires strong hold without breaking a sweat. I deem leveling a landscape> cutting a building in half when both were at greatly reduced power.
The planets are back in place each time he summons it which suggests it can't actually destroy the planets.
Which is precisely why I mentioned it was a hyperbolic representation of power. I don't think anyone here is going to argue that Cloud and company can withstand being tossed into the sun using that as reference, right? It's just meant to look cool and nothing more, so I'll leave it at that.
My "no summons" rule only covers sentient or semi-sentient creatures or minions capable of moving and thinking of their own volition (meaning without express control by the caster or controller), by the way. Again, this is to ensure that the ones doing the fighting are the characters themselves, based on their own powers, not their pets, nor their allies nor their minions (be they AI robots or living mooks). That's the difference between Sephiroth using some meteors to bombard his enemies (which is no different than Dumbledore and Gandalf producing and throwing fire at them) versus doing something illegal, like summoning Bahamut-Sin to duel with Bolas (which would admittedly be epic, but is sadly not allowed for this match).
Yes his weakest form he destroyed a building, Mew two in his weakest form with power suppressor's on managed to obliterate a criminal empires strong hold without breaking a sweat. I deem leveling a landscape> cutting a building in half when both were at greatly reduced power.
Not just a building, but Sephiroth can wreck the entire scenery of Midgar without breaking a sweat, too. Again, I refer you to the videos where he casually slashes through several skyscrapers and makes several towers collapse without even beginning to look tired, while at the same time fighting Cloud. Sephiroth can, in his weakest form, just as easily do what Mewtwo did with the power supressor on, and then some.
I participate yearly in a survival challenge in which I am dropped off in the wilderness with 1 days rations, a knife, and no other supplies, and have to find my way home. This is typically several weeks hiking from civilization.
I have personally killed several bears in the course of this challenge, with the use of snares and other traps.
Consdiering one of Sephiroth's ascended forms required ALL NINE Playble Characters to advance past, and given the size of that one, he could practically fight with Bolas in Hand to Hand, and probably WIN...
Honestly, I don't know much about Kefka, but if his last known form was basically turning into a God, I'm inclined to believe he won't be a pushover.
Mewtwo though... is a Pokémon... Psychic Type... When a move like Bite, or Crunch is super effective against Mewtwo, I can't really expect him to last very long in this fight... I'd say the Large Sephiroth's attacks would qualify as Dark-Type attacks... I'd even go as far as to say One-Winged Angel uses Dark Type Attacks. I'm not putting any money on Mewtwo basically.
Bolas... Bolas is Bolas... Greatly weakened by his efforts as of late, Yet still powerful enough to cause the Multiverse havoc... Honestly, I don't see him Winning, yet, I don't see him losing either... I think we've all come to expect the "Bolas Special" of Bolas Fighting with someone, getting bored, and then 'walking away... Agents of Artifice showed Bolas to be exceptionally powerful, yet still not quite powerful enough to handle his problems effectively.
Hard to tell really, but I've voted for FF Villains due to the fact of Power variability. Bolas claimed to be a big bad boogeyman, so did Mewtwo, but Sephiroth and Kefka WERE ACTUALLY the harbingers of the apocalypse.
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Mewtwo though... is a Pokémon... Psychic Type... When a move like Bite, or Crunch is super effective against Mewtwo, I can't really expect him to last very long in this fight... I'd say the Large Sephiroth's attacks would qualify as Dark-Type attacks... I'd even go as far as to say One-Winged Angel uses Dark Type Attacks. I'm not putting any money on Mewtwo basically.
I was pretty much going to say this. Mewtwo's greatest weakness in this fight is the fact that he actually has a quantifiable, abusible weakness for Team Final Fantasy Villains to exploit.
Dark Magic is pretty much prevalent in all of Final Fantasy, and Kefka and Sephiroth pretty much have access to the entire gamut of Final Fantasy spells.
The challenge here is that Nicol Bolas also has access to a great swath of magic, specifically of the Blue, Black and Red colors.
Mewtwo is pretty much going to act as the Glass Tank of his team, launching concussive blasts of energy while Nicol Bolas is going to be kept busy flinging redirect and counter spells to protect himself and his team mate to prevent anyone from being one-shotted by a random Death Spell.
Hell, ANY successive attacks that are landed here are going to hurt anybodies chances of being viable the longer the match goes, as the Wither from Raven's Run is going to make everyone VERY cautious about taking damage, lest they risk becoming weaker.
My vote goes to Kefka and Sephiroth. As although Nicol Bolas has access to just as many damaging spells as they do, Kefka and Sephiroth ALSO have access to white magic, so they can Esuna the wither effects away and potentially Cure any damage that becomes too lethal.
I see Kefka taking up that mantle of becoming the Debuff Cleric, as despite his toughness I think Sephiroth will be faster than him and more eager to get straight in the fight, while Kefka will enjoy more being able to torture his opponents.
So essentially it'll come down to Mewtwo Vs. Sephiroth, with Bolas and Kefka being forced to be support mages for their respective fighters just to try and keep the Wither from effecting anyone too much.
And in that kind of fight, I put more stock into Sephiroth beating Mewtwo.
Consdiering one of Sephiroth's ascended forms required ALL NINE Playble Characters to advance past, and given the size of that one, he could practically fight with Bolas in Hand to Hand, and probably WIN...
While this is true, remember that Bolas and Mewtwo also usually require entire teams to take down, so this isn't anything new. Sephiroth was also soloed by Sora (twice), who is a teenager (admittedly quite powerful) with a giant key as a weapon.
Mewtwo though... is a Pokémon... Psychic Type... When a move like Bite, or Crunch is super effective against Mewtwo, I can't really expect him to last very long in this fight... I'd say the Large Sephiroth's attacks would qualify as Dark-Type attacks... I'd even go as far as to say One-Winged Angel uses Dark Type Attacks. I'm not putting any money on Mewtwo basically.
While this is true (and Kraken agrees with you), remember that Mewtwo is still, even after several generations of Pokémon, the most powerful psychic type (well, except Arceus, but Arceus can be any type he wants to be), and is intelligent enough to be aware of his own weaknesses, and will likely tell Bolas that he needs some serious protection from black for this match. I'm sure Bolas will have some sort of spell to ensure that his loyal *ahem* partner... would be up to facing them?
Bolas... Bolas is Bolas... Greatly weakened by his efforts as of late, Yet still powerful enough to cause the Multiverse havoc... Honestly, I don't see him Winning, yet, I don't see him losing either... I think we've all come to expect the "Bolas Special" of Bolas Fighting with someone, getting bored, and then 'walking away... Agents of Artifice showed Bolas to be exceptionally powerful, yet still not quite powerful enough to handle his problems effectively.
Bolas can't run from this match, as per Tournament rules. He'll need to unleash his entire arsenal on the FF Villains, and don't forget that he and Mewtwo have the ability to destroy one's mental faculties (well, with Kefka and Sephiroth, there's not much left to destroy, since they're both plum crazy).
Hard to tell really, but I've voted for FF Villains due to the fact of Power variability. Bolas claimed to be a big bad boogeyman, so did Mewtwo, but Sephiroth and Kefka WERE ACTUALLY the harbingers of the apocalypse.
Ultimately though, Mewtwo wanted to be left alone and in peace (and thus not necessarily bring about the End of the World), and Bolas is trying to conquer an entire multiverse (and even he can't be everywhere at once), squaring off against very, very, very powerful mages in the process. Consider that though.
I participate yearly in a survival challenge in which I am dropped off in the wilderness with 1 days rations, a knife, and no other supplies, and have to find my way home. This is typically several weeks hiking from civilization.
I have personally killed several bears in the course of this challenge, with the use of snares and other traps.
Sephiroth's mind isn't that well put together, and Bolas will know this. He'll crush Seph's mind and turn him into a pawn (which he is well-known for doing) to use in taking down Kefka, then get Mewtwo to help hold him in place while the two pummel him into submission with TK and Blightning.
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While this is true, remember that Bolas and Mewtwo also usually require entire teams to take down, so this isn't anything new. Sephiroth was also soloed by Sora (twice), who is a teenager (admittedly quite powerful) with a giant key as a weapon.
We REALLY have to get away from the type of arguments that revolve around "This guy beats or can't beat this other guy from his Universe, therefore he's God/crap". I know you're just being an impartial mediator, but saying that Sora beats Sephiroth is only going to derail the debate into talking about what Sephiroth can do individually in his own universe, not about what he can do in this current fight against this current crop of opponents.
While this is true (and Kraken agrees with you), remember that Mewtwo is still, even after several generations of Pokémon, the most powerful psychic type (well, except Arceus, but Arceus can be any type he wants to be), and is intelligent enough to be aware of his own weaknesses, and will likely tell Bolas that he needs some serious protection from black for this match. I'm sure Bolas will have some sort of spell to ensure that his loyal *ahem* partner... would be up to facing them?
As much as Mewtwo is very much aware of his weakness, Bolas only has access to three types of magic, and none of them will give him defensive wards against Black Magic like a white enchantment would. Hence why I mentioned a lot of Bolas' time is gonna be invested in countering spells, because nothing else blue, red or black is really gonna stick for long.
Bolas can't run from this match, as per Tournament rules. He'll need to unleash his entire arsenal on the FF Villains, and don't forget that he and Mewtwo have the ability to destroy one's mental faculties (well, with Kefka and Sephiroth, there's not much left to destroy, since they're both plum crazy).
Which is why I didn't put too much stock in their mental attacks doing much. Kefka's already off his rocker and Sephiroth is just not attached to reality anymore as it is, so I don't think mind destruction will bother them.
Sephiroth's mind isn't that well put together, and Bolas will know this. He'll crush Seph's mind and turn him into a pawn (which he is well-known for doing) to use in taking down Kefka, then get Mewtwo to help hold him in place while the two pummel him into submission with TK and Blightning.
Do you think Sephiroths non-existent mental state actually hinders his ability to resist mental attack? Interesting. That could come into play if you're right about that. I dunno the science behind such a confrontation.
We REALLY have to get away from the type of arguments that revolve around "This guy beats or can't beat this other guy from his Universe, therefore he's God/crap". I know you're just being an impartial mediator, but saying that Sora beats Sephiroth is only going to derail the debate into talking about what Sephiroth can do individually in his own universe, not about what he can do in this current fight against this current crop of opponents.
I know, Kraken, and your post highlights the point I am trying to make, that we really shouldn't do that because we will always find instances where one character was beaten by (or conversely, has beaten), an opponent who is not the opposing team, and therefore no guaranteed gauge of any power level. I'm just doing it to point out that any argument of that type can be countered similarly by another one.
Oh, and for the record, Sora is badass. He took down the greatest villains and heroes in both Disney and Final Fantasy canon. Not even Kratos has a kill list as impressive as his, so losing to him really isn't too bad.
As for the arguments about their mental state; those are good points, both of you. I'm no psychologist, so I don't know if being mentally unhinged would make you more susceptible to mind screw or more resistant to it. My bet would be that Kefka and Sephiroth are so messed up that there's nothing Mewtwo or Bolas could do to further the destruction of their already fractured minds. However, the converse could be true, that their insanity would actually be more conducive to being hit by psychic attacks. This should be a crux point for the debate this week, methinks.
I participate yearly in a survival challenge in which I am dropped off in the wilderness with 1 days rations, a knife, and no other supplies, and have to find my way home. This is typically several weeks hiking from civilization.
I have personally killed several bears in the course of this challenge, with the use of snares and other traps.
Do you think Sephiroths non-existent mental state actually hinders his ability to resist mental attack? Interesting. That could come into play if you're right about that. I dunno the science behind such a confrontation.
All it would take is one spell to unhinge his mind (bombarding it with images of traumatic childhood events and his "mother"), then one spell to control him (offering to make the pain stop, and opportunities for greater power than Jenova could have offered).
Bolas is infamous for using spells of this nature. He appears in the art (and in the names) of quite a few of them. Mind control is even one of his planeswalker abilities. He's also manipulated minds far more powerful than Sephiroth's.
I'm no psychologist, so I don't know if being mentally unhinged would make you more susceptible to mind screw or more resistant to it. My bet would be that Kefka and Sephiroth are so messed up that there's nothing Mewtwo or Bolas could do to further the destruction of their already fractured minds. However, the converse could be true, that their insanity would actually be more conducive to being hit by psychic attacks.
It's also got a lot to do with the method of the psychic attack. Bolas could definitely speak to him telepathically, and knowing Sephiroth's past and motivations, would know exactly what to say. Sephiroth desires power above all else, and Bolas is a being with far more of that at his disposal than Jenova. His reinforcement of his words with powerful magic (i.e. planeswalker ability, Slave of Bolas, etc.) would seal the deal. And now that I think of it, he could probably entice Kefka as well by offering him multiple worlds over which he could become a god.
One interesting fact, Pokemon can't die, only faint, as such even if mew two drops it should be pretty easy for bolas to pick him back up again. and again and again,
One interesting fact, Pokemon can't die, only faint, as such even if mew two drops it should be pretty easy for bolas to pick him back up again. and again and again,
Except, you know, as per rules of the tournament, a KO or incapacitation for an extended period of time is sufficient enough to be removed from the arena. This is to prevent "unkillable" characters from winning due to the "Platinum Angel" effect, and to allow characters without the necessary firepower to take down (that is, kill) superpowered opponents a chance to get the upper hand and manage a victory through KO or incapacitation (it also allows the characters who abide from the "Thou Shall Not Kill" maxim to manage a victory without compromising their morals).
That said, Mewtwo is still a beast. With the power supressor on, he made even powerful second and third stage Pokémon, each of which would be a powerful opponent by themselves, practically beg for mercy. Without it, he's just off the scale.
If we're going to do a stat comparison among all Pokémon so far:
"The only Pokémon stronger than [Mewtwo] in terms of base stats are Arceus (who created the universe) and Black/White Kyurem, and it's equal in stats to Dialga, Palkia and Giratina. And to prove stats aren't everything, Mewtwo may still be able to take them on depending on its moveset, as it has a very wide pool of attacks. The short of it, even five Generations and 15 years into the series, it is still one of the strongest Pokémon in the entire series, out of 648 competitors."
To drive the point accross, Mewtwo lives in a world where battling is a way of life, where superpowerful, earthshaking elemental monsters are encountered everyday, and he manages to walk away with the powers that continue to make even the higher tier legendary Pokémon envious. Plus, he has sentient intelligence, and is capable of communicating with humans via his psychic link!
While initially it seems the FF Villains were underestimated, they crept up the polls quite quickly, but I'd like to remind everyone that this is still Nicol Bolas we're talking about, and he can give Mewtwo such things like Elder Mastery to augment his power. Not that Mewtwo needs it, mind you, but if we're going to up the ante a little by comparing power boosting potential, then let's do it.
I participate yearly in a survival challenge in which I am dropped off in the wilderness with 1 days rations, a knife, and no other supplies, and have to find my way home. This is typically several weeks hiking from civilization.
I have personally killed several bears in the course of this challenge, with the use of snares and other traps.
Another thing to consider, Sephiroth and Kefka have access to Reflect magic, so mind control/crushing spells wouldn't exactly have an immediate effect. The battle would have to rage on for a few "rounds" before Team Final Fantasy Villains were susceptible to mental attack or even magic attacks in general.
This gives them a helluva advantage, at least for the first few moments of battle.
Breaking down everyone's opinions so far (and my apologizes if I accidentally misinterpreted anyone):
draftguy2 - Supporting Psychic Monsters
KyleR - No vote yet, leaning towards Final Fantasy Villains
Warp778 - No vote yet
Catmurderer - No vote yet
The Great Lobachevsky - Supporting Psychic Monsters
Stardust - No vote yet, leaning towards Psychic Monsters
Plaguefeather - Solid vote for Final Fantasy Villains
Kraken B. Trippin - Solid vote for Final Fantasy Villains
Again, once you are absolutely sure which team you are backing, please express this explicitly, otherwise I will only assume you're throwing arguments around in order to facilitate the discussion while you decide whom to vote for.
It seems both Teams for this match are simply dripping with power and potential, all things considered on both sides! Close matches this week, as far as support and votes are concerned.
As such, I'm torn myself (in fact, I'm sure most of you are). I like both teams, each one being epic in its own way.
I participate yearly in a survival challenge in which I am dropped off in the wilderness with 1 days rations, a knife, and no other supplies, and have to find my way home. This is typically several weeks hiking from civilization.
I have personally killed several bears in the course of this challenge, with the use of snares and other traps.
All it would take is one spell to unhinge his mind...
This is pretty much bang on. Previously I'd only considered actual combat (where I'd say they're very close to even), but this is Team Psychic Monsters here! One thing FF doesn't have much of is telepathy and psychic attacks, meaning neither Sephiroth nor Kefka are going to have much in the way of defense here. The fact that team FF is already mentally fragile makes any mind screw/control spell basically a one-shot kill. That failing, Bolas can just touch them to completely wreck their minds directly.
So, yeah, it seems strange to say it, but Sephiroth doesn't stand a chance.
Another thing to consider, Sephiroth and Kefka have access to Reflect magic, so mind control/crushing spells wouldn't exactly have an immediate effect. The battle would have to rage on for a few "rounds" before Team Final Fantasy Villains were susceptible to mental attack or even magic attacks in general.
This gives them a helluva advantage, at least for the first few moments of battle.
Wow, I completely forgot about Reflect Magic...
That solely gives Team FF an edge in this fight, Cast Reflect, when Mewtwo psyballs one of them it gets bounced back at Mewtwo or Bolas... Bolas tries to enter their minds, gets psychic feedback from his own Spell...
Interesting.
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There will now be two matches every week, each one also lasting a week (except semi-finals and finals, those last for two weeks each) until the conclusion of the tournament, and you're just in time for Round 1.
One of this week’s matches:
Team "Final Fantasy Villains" - Kefka and Sephiroth
vs.
Team "Psychic Monsters" - Nicol Bolas and Mewtwo
Fighting in: Raven's Run (Shadowmoor)
The members of both teams are transported to a different dimension with all information about their opponents “uploaded” into their minds. They have 30 minutes to prepare and talk to each other (they don’t know anything about each other as teammates, save for any experience from previous matches of this same tournament), and will also have full access to any technology, magic, weaponry, resources, etc. which they would routinely be able to use from their respective universes. Teammates may share resources with each other. Afterwards, both teams are teleported to the randomly chosen plane, which has mystically sealed off so that none of them can escape the battlefield in any way. The team that manages to knock out and/or kill both members of the opposing team will be declared the winner. There is no time limit.
Write ups for both teams:
Team "Final Fantasy Villains" - Kefka and Sephiroth
The archetypal Final Fantasy villains, these two bear such similarities and powers that it's an eternal debate as to who the better villain was. Using their knowledge over the magics of their universe, as well as their desire for ultimate power, their evil drive would take them far if they worked together.
Team "Psychic Monsters" - Nicol Bolas and Mewtwo
How might they be if they ever met up? After the end of the Totally-can't-think-of-a-good-name war, Nicol Bolas was finnally defeated by a group of Little Girls and their over-protective moms. "Back to the drawing board then" he thinks as he planes-walks to his hidden base on an unknown world, as he's sitting on the couch he turns to the multi-verse news, where he sees this magnificant creature, with remarkable Psychic powers much like his own. After much studying on this creature he comes to find out it's name, Mewtwo. and he knows what must be done. He build up all of his mental strength to P-walk to this new location he's never been to, after preparing for what, he doesn't know he's off.
On this new world he sees remarkable things, little rats shooting electricity, wingless dragons breathing fire, even a giant turtle shooting water. But not what he was looking for. It is said that what/who he is looking for is very rare and hard to find. After years of searching he finally come to the place of it's home. A lone island in the middle of a giant sea. When he knocks on the door there is no answer, just this little camera atop the door looking at him. He finally gets angry after a few tries and blasts his way through the door. When he steps through the smoky ruins of the frame he is hit by some kind of energy blast, and he can feel someone trying to infiltrate his thoughts. "Who is this, some powerful blue planeswalker?" He yelled through the smoke. "No, it is I, the most powerful of pokemon" says the voice, but not out loud, in his head. "What do you want with me?" said the voice. "I would ask for a partnership" says Bolas in his head to the voice. "One with great power beyond your wildest imagination." a slight pause. "What kind of power?" says the voice, while the smoke is all but settled steps out this creature Bolas has been seeking. "Power to rule the muti-verse" and the creature looked confused. "What is this 'Multi-verse'' it asks. "Agree to help me and I shall Show you" Replied Bolas.
"Okay" Said the creature, "I am Mewtwo" So the two talked for hours and hours exchanging information and explaining the different world. Bolas explained about planeswalking, and being a walker, and the multi-verse, while Mewtwo explained about his world and how humans catch "pokemon". Then they form a partnership to take over the Multi-verse. But as they go to planeswalk away, something goes amiss and they are abruptly thrown into this arena. Where high above their head there seems to be a poll going, and they feel like all of their powers have been drained. but as the poll goes up for their side they start regaining their powers, and some mystical force beyond anything they can do is putting them up against these strange enemies that they've never seen before. What will happen if they win?
How do I vote for the team I like? Well, I'm glad you asked...
Now, who wins this match? Root for your favorites now!
Round 1
Match 1: "Godslayer" vs. "Wizard Guide" - Team "Wizard Guide" (25 - 39)
Match 2: "Cybernetic Cannon" vs. "By Your Powers Combined" - "By Your Powers Combined" (21 - 24)
Match 3: "Smash" vs. "Metal Men" - (22 - 27)
Match 4: "Justice For All" vs. "Speed" - "Justice For All" (25 - 20)
Match 5: "Fun Size" vs. "Pest Control Problem" - "Fun Size" (22 - 14)
Match 6: "Rescue the Princess" vs. "Disney Villains" - "Rescue the Princess" (24 - 18)
Match 7: "Basketballers" vs. "Electromagnetic Pulse" - "Electromagnetic Pulse" (21 - 25)
Match 8: "Dark Lords" vs. "Human Mental Prowess" - "Human Mental Prowess" (30 - 32)
Match 9: "Crazy Supernatural Killers" vs. "Chaotic Genius" - ???
Match 10: "Final Fantasy Villains" vs. "Psychic Monsters" - ???
How well do you do against one?
1) the landscape, it kills everyone! The flying/dodgers have an edge here,
2) which version of the ff7 villein are we using the final boss who was fused with all the mako energy or the "Shinra solder" version that while grossly powerful isn't quite AS grossly powerful.
3) ALL of these characters work alone, Bolas and mew two likely might have a (rather small) edge here as Mew two as a pokemon is used to be subordinate to another, (like in all the games where my masterball caught him) which is the position he is in with bolas, (in which case bolas just got one of the BEST minions ever)
4) their combat styles are very different and represented with VERY huge variance in numeric styles, Bolas as a MTG card is only a 7/7 and story line is described as near godlike, where as mew two is a pokemon in the hundreds, However cannon also described as "god like" in the movie and what not. the ff villeins are both very power with 10,000 hp's and VERY high stats, both harbingers of the apocolips but both not described as (figurity) powerful as godlike nature of the other two (although mewtwo did control the weather and sort of threatened to flood the world) This makes scaling their ability's more difficult.
I am going to list the biggest accomplishment for each character to try and give a sense of the scope of their power (only things they acomplished will count)
Mew Two (turned main protagonist in a childrens show to stone)
Bolas (merged all the mana in an entire land into himself)
Sepheroth, (Killed Main heros girl friend)
Kefka ( Manipulated royalty )
I am not sure how this will play out, I have an inite leaning toward Bolas and Mewtwo if only because I feel they will work better and more willingly as a team and BOTH CAN FLY (so harder to hit them in the lands effect) however its close.
Warp778 is correct; it was decided in the "nominations" and "preliminaries" thread that we wanted to have the post-mending, Neo-Walker Bolas in this tournament, and not the Oldwalker Bolas who could allegedly destroy an entire Plane just by showing up on it. I keep wondering how difficult that makes summer vacation for him...
To answer some of draftguy2's queries (and to also provide my "devil's advocate" argument for the FF villains, who are currently trailing behind in the poll):
1. I think it is safe to assume that, like most Final Fantasy villains, Kefka and Sephiroth begin the match in their humanoid forms, and then gradually transform into different, more powerful forms while the match goes on (not a far stretch of the imagination, really, since we already saw this with the Disney Villains, who have a similar trick).
2. While it is true that it would be quantitively difficult to weigh their stats from the different games they come from, the fun comes in the qualitative arguments we can gather from additional sources. After all, Bolas is supported by books and MTG lore, Mewtwo is supported by a TV series and a movie (as well as other games outside of the main Pokémon realm; Smash Bros. and the TCG come to mind), Sephiroth also has a movie (as well as other video games outside of the main FF ream; Kingdom Hearts I and II and Ehrgeiz come to mind) and Kefka is just iconic. It's not like we're going to run out of material to weigh the power levels of these four.
3. Kefka and Sephiroth can fly, too. Almost every version of Sephiroth I have seen has granted him some sort of levitation or flying ability. In the main game, he could do it in his humanoid form, and in the final battle he has seven wings (like Kefka, who also displayed flight in his game) and spends the match floating around. Kingdom Hearts I and II flat out give him his One Winged Angel form, arguably the hardest optional boss in both games, and he can fly in that one, too. If I had to envision both villains, they would probably appear to each other in their humanoid forms and find they have access to the ability to transform into their other forms at will, meaning yes, they could fly if they wanted to.
and lastly...
4. Kefka and Sephiroth are villains cut of the same cloth, much like Doom and Lex, Palpatine and Voldemort, Jafar and Maleficent, etc., and while all of them are loners who prefer doing things their way, the "supervillain team up" trope is a very old one indeed, and no one seemed to argue that any of the villains wouldn't cooperate with each other until now (except Magneto and Static, but that's because Static isn't a villain), so I think that both teams have a lot of potential synergy. Sure, they'll be afraid that their partners will backstab them at any given time, but they should be able to work together to some extent.
Flight might be a big advantage in any arena, but I'd argue that all four of them can do that here, and Bolas and Mewtwo aren't the only one with cooperative synergy, so I hope those are not the only reasons you're deciding on "Psychic Monsters".
How well do you do against one?
Mewtwo seems like the weakest out of the bunch, which is veerry scary. Super-powerful group in this matchup.
Also, Kefka is weird in that his power level depends on how many espers he's drained magic from. In his last showing before he
Of course, Final Fantasy has its own brand of time magic as well. Even Bolas would have a tough time dealing with Earth-shattering meteors and reality warping magic. Leaving magic aside for a sec, I'd have to say that Sephiroth's got this one in the bag physically - he's been shown to beat scarier things than a 60 ton dragon without breaking a sweat.
I don't know Mewtwo and Kefka as well, but this is a really tough one to call. I'm leaning Bolas just for the genius and cunning.
Oh, sorry. Allow me to rephrase myself, then, as it appears I was not clear. I'll respond to this and KyleR's post below in the following paragraphs.
I find this attitude commendible, and encourage others to also do some research (or at the very least share what they know about each character on the thread) so that it can facilitate this match. Seems we have two very hard ones to call this week.
Now, to answer both of you: Sephiroth in his weakest form (when he was still mortal and part of SOLDIER), is capable of cutting through a futuristic building made of metal with his blade without even showing any physical strain. This is best seen in one of the videos that The Great Lobachevsky linked to, namely the Crisis Core one, which is a prequel to FFVII (and then his power level starts to scale up). When he started out in SOLDIER, he became the finest among them, capable of hunting down superpowered monsters... and that was back then, before he went mad and decided to go for ultimate power.
In my opinion, Sephiroth will probably start the battle in this aforementioned mortal form, and at one point pull out his theme music and go One Winged Angel on the Psychic Monsters. Then he'll not only be able to *just* slash through steel like a hot knife through butter, but he'll be able to teleport, fly, attack and combo even faster with his masamune, summon a great degree of powerful magic that will either drain his opponents (like Heartless Angel) or otherwise bombard them with cosmic forces (like Meteors). You can look at the Kingdom Hearts I and II footage of him for more reference when it comes to this one.
If that's still not enough to impress you, we can go into Safer Sephiroth territory, where he can summon (and survive the impact of) a Supernova capable of consuming several planets of our solar system (well, Pluto isn't a planet anymore, and it may just be a hyperbolic representation of power, but you have to admit, it's awesome), among other things.
That said, I agree with you in that all four of them have had incredibly impressive feats. However, it seems that people are hesitant to vote because of lack of knowledge (which is a good attitude; that keeps everyone honest). Judging by the replies to this thread, it seems everyone who posted is familiar with at least one or two of the four characters, so please share your knowledge, since a great deal of this match will be based on the arguments on both sides and showing what each character can do, in order to influence the voters properly. If everyone exchanges information in a transparent manner, it would help everyone else, too.
Whatever any of you know about any of the four would help everyone greatly when it comes to deciding who to vote for. Your lobbying can and will make a difference here!
How well do you do against one?
Yes his weakest form he destroyed a building, Mew two in his weakest form with power suppressor's on managed to obliterate a criminal empires strong hold without breaking a sweat. I deem leveling a landscape> cutting a building in half when both were at greatly reduced power.
Which is precisely why I mentioned it was a hyperbolic representation of power. I don't think anyone here is going to argue that Cloud and company can withstand being tossed into the sun using that as reference, right? It's just meant to look cool and nothing more, so I'll leave it at that.
My "no summons" rule only covers sentient or semi-sentient creatures or minions capable of moving and thinking of their own volition (meaning without express control by the caster or controller), by the way. Again, this is to ensure that the ones doing the fighting are the characters themselves, based on their own powers, not their pets, nor their allies nor their minions (be they AI robots or living mooks). That's the difference between Sephiroth using some meteors to bombard his enemies (which is no different than Dumbledore and Gandalf producing and throwing fire at them) versus doing something illegal, like summoning Bahamut-Sin to duel with Bolas (which would admittedly be epic, but is sadly not allowed for this match).
Not just a building, but Sephiroth can wreck the entire scenery of Midgar without breaking a sweat, too. Again, I refer you to the videos where he casually slashes through several skyscrapers and makes several towers collapse without even beginning to look tired, while at the same time fighting Cloud. Sephiroth can, in his weakest form, just as easily do what Mewtwo did with the power supressor on, and then some.
How well do you do against one?
Consdiering one of Sephiroth's ascended forms required ALL NINE Playble Characters to advance past, and given the size of that one, he could practically fight with Bolas in Hand to Hand, and probably WIN...
Honestly, I don't know much about Kefka, but if his last known form was basically turning into a God, I'm inclined to believe he won't be a pushover.
Mewtwo though... is a Pokémon... Psychic Type... When a move like Bite, or Crunch is super effective against Mewtwo, I can't really expect him to last very long in this fight... I'd say the Large Sephiroth's attacks would qualify as Dark-Type attacks... I'd even go as far as to say One-Winged Angel uses Dark Type Attacks. I'm not putting any money on Mewtwo basically.
Bolas... Bolas is Bolas... Greatly weakened by his efforts as of late, Yet still powerful enough to cause the Multiverse havoc... Honestly, I don't see him Winning, yet, I don't see him losing either... I think we've all come to expect the "Bolas Special" of Bolas Fighting with someone, getting bored, and then 'walking away... Agents of Artifice showed Bolas to be exceptionally powerful, yet still not quite powerful enough to handle his problems effectively.
Hard to tell really, but I've voted for FF Villains due to the fact of Power variability. Bolas claimed to be a big bad boogeyman, so did Mewtwo, but Sephiroth and Kefka WERE ACTUALLY the harbingers of the apocalypse.
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I was pretty much going to say this. Mewtwo's greatest weakness in this fight is the fact that he actually has a quantifiable, abusible weakness for Team Final Fantasy Villains to exploit.
Dark Magic is pretty much prevalent in all of Final Fantasy, and Kefka and Sephiroth pretty much have access to the entire gamut of Final Fantasy spells.
The challenge here is that Nicol Bolas also has access to a great swath of magic, specifically of the Blue, Black and Red colors.
Mewtwo is pretty much going to act as the Glass Tank of his team, launching concussive blasts of energy while Nicol Bolas is going to be kept busy flinging redirect and counter spells to protect himself and his team mate to prevent anyone from being one-shotted by a random Death Spell.
Hell, ANY successive attacks that are landed here are going to hurt anybodies chances of being viable the longer the match goes, as the Wither from Raven's Run is going to make everyone VERY cautious about taking damage, lest they risk becoming weaker.
My vote goes to Kefka and Sephiroth. As although Nicol Bolas has access to just as many damaging spells as they do, Kefka and Sephiroth ALSO have access to white magic, so they can Esuna the wither effects away and potentially Cure any damage that becomes too lethal.
I see Kefka taking up that mantle of becoming the Debuff Cleric, as despite his toughness I think Sephiroth will be faster than him and more eager to get straight in the fight, while Kefka will enjoy more being able to torture his opponents.
So essentially it'll come down to Mewtwo Vs. Sephiroth, with Bolas and Kefka being forced to be support mages for their respective fighters just to try and keep the Wither from effecting anyone too much.
And in that kind of fight, I put more stock into Sephiroth beating Mewtwo.
My vote goes to Team Final Fantasy Villains.
While this is true, remember that Bolas and Mewtwo also usually require entire teams to take down, so this isn't anything new. Sephiroth was also soloed by Sora (twice), who is a teenager (admittedly quite powerful) with a giant key as a weapon.
While this is true (and Kraken agrees with you), remember that Mewtwo is still, even after several generations of Pokémon, the most powerful psychic type (well, except Arceus, but Arceus can be any type he wants to be), and is intelligent enough to be aware of his own weaknesses, and will likely tell Bolas that he needs some serious protection from black for this match. I'm sure Bolas will have some sort of spell to ensure that his loyal *ahem* partner... would be up to facing them?
Bolas can't run from this match, as per Tournament rules. He'll need to unleash his entire arsenal on the FF Villains, and don't forget that he and Mewtwo have the ability to destroy one's mental faculties (well, with Kefka and Sephiroth, there's not much left to destroy, since they're both plum crazy).
Ultimately though, Mewtwo wanted to be left alone and in peace (and thus not necessarily bring about the End of the World), and Bolas is trying to conquer an entire multiverse (and even he can't be everywhere at once), squaring off against very, very, very powerful mages in the process. Consider that though.
How well do you do against one?
We REALLY have to get away from the type of arguments that revolve around "This guy beats or can't beat this other guy from his Universe, therefore he's God/crap". I know you're just being an impartial mediator, but saying that Sora beats Sephiroth is only going to derail the debate into talking about what Sephiroth can do individually in his own universe, not about what he can do in this current fight against this current crop of opponents.
As much as Mewtwo is very much aware of his weakness, Bolas only has access to three types of magic, and none of them will give him defensive wards against Black Magic like a white enchantment would. Hence why I mentioned a lot of Bolas' time is gonna be invested in countering spells, because nothing else blue, red or black is really gonna stick for long.
Which is why I didn't put too much stock in their mental attacks doing much. Kefka's already off his rocker and Sephiroth is just not attached to reality anymore as it is, so I don't think mind destruction will bother them.
Do you think Sephiroths non-existent mental state actually hinders his ability to resist mental attack? Interesting. That could come into play if you're right about that. I dunno the science behind such a confrontation.
I know, Kraken, and your post highlights the point I am trying to make, that we really shouldn't do that because we will always find instances where one character was beaten by (or conversely, has beaten), an opponent who is not the opposing team, and therefore no guaranteed gauge of any power level. I'm just doing it to point out that any argument of that type can be countered similarly by another one.
Oh, and for the record, Sora is badass. He took down the greatest villains and heroes in both Disney and Final Fantasy canon. Not even Kratos has a kill list as impressive as his, so losing to him really isn't too bad.
As for the arguments about their mental state; those are good points, both of you. I'm no psychologist, so I don't know if being mentally unhinged would make you more susceptible to mind screw or more resistant to it. My bet would be that Kefka and Sephiroth are so messed up that there's nothing Mewtwo or Bolas could do to further the destruction of their already fractured minds. However, the converse could be true, that their insanity would actually be more conducive to being hit by psychic attacks. This should be a crux point for the debate this week, methinks.
How well do you do against one?
All it would take is one spell to unhinge his mind (bombarding it with images of traumatic childhood events and his "mother"), then one spell to control him (offering to make the pain stop, and opportunities for greater power than Jenova could have offered).
Bolas is infamous for using spells of this nature. He appears in the art (and in the names) of quite a few of them. Mind control is even one of his planeswalker abilities. He's also manipulated minds far more powerful than Sephiroth's.
It's also got a lot to do with the method of the psychic attack. Bolas could definitely speak to him telepathically, and knowing Sephiroth's past and motivations, would know exactly what to say. Sephiroth desires power above all else, and Bolas is a being with far more of that at his disposal than Jenova. His reinforcement of his words with powerful magic (i.e. planeswalker ability, Slave of Bolas, etc.) would seal the deal. And now that I think of it, he could probably entice Kefka as well by offering him multiple worlds over which he could become a god.
Agreed. Sora has some pretty sick feats. At his most powerful I'd consider him a decent match for Superman.
Except, you know, as per rules of the tournament, a KO or incapacitation for an extended period of time is sufficient enough to be removed from the arena. This is to prevent "unkillable" characters from winning due to the "Platinum Angel" effect, and to allow characters without the necessary firepower to take down (that is, kill) superpowered opponents a chance to get the upper hand and manage a victory through KO or incapacitation (it also allows the characters who abide from the "Thou Shall Not Kill" maxim to manage a victory without compromising their morals).
That said, Mewtwo is still a beast. With the power supressor on, he made even powerful second and third stage Pokémon, each of which would be a powerful opponent by themselves, practically beg for mercy. Without it, he's just off the scale.
If we're going to do a stat comparison among all Pokémon so far:
Source.
To drive the point accross, Mewtwo lives in a world where battling is a way of life, where superpowerful, earthshaking elemental monsters are encountered everyday, and he manages to walk away with the powers that continue to make even the higher tier legendary Pokémon envious. Plus, he has sentient intelligence, and is capable of communicating with humans via his psychic link!
While initially it seems the FF Villains were underestimated, they crept up the polls quite quickly, but I'd like to remind everyone that this is still Nicol Bolas we're talking about, and he can give Mewtwo such things like Elder Mastery to augment his power. Not that Mewtwo needs it, mind you, but if we're going to up the ante a little by comparing power boosting potential, then let's do it.
How well do you do against one?
This gives them a helluva advantage, at least for the first few moments of battle.
draftguy2 - Supporting Psychic Monsters
KyleR - No vote yet, leaning towards Final Fantasy Villains
Warp778 - No vote yet
Catmurderer - No vote yet
The Great Lobachevsky - Supporting Psychic Monsters
Stardust - No vote yet, leaning towards Psychic Monsters
Plaguefeather - Solid vote for Final Fantasy Villains
Kraken B. Trippin - Solid vote for Final Fantasy Villains
Again, once you are absolutely sure which team you are backing, please express this explicitly, otherwise I will only assume you're throwing arguments around in order to facilitate the discussion while you decide whom to vote for.
It seems both Teams for this match are simply dripping with power and potential, all things considered on both sides! Close matches this week, as far as support and votes are concerned.
As such, I'm torn myself (in fact, I'm sure most of you are). I like both teams, each one being epic in its own way.
How well do you do against one?
This is pretty much bang on. Previously I'd only considered actual combat (where I'd say they're very close to even), but this is Team Psychic Monsters here! One thing FF doesn't have much of is telepathy and psychic attacks, meaning neither Sephiroth nor Kefka are going to have much in the way of defense here. The fact that team FF is already mentally fragile makes any mind screw/control spell basically a one-shot kill. That failing, Bolas can just touch them to completely wreck their minds directly.
So, yeah, it seems strange to say it, but Sephiroth doesn't stand a chance.
Wow, I completely forgot about Reflect Magic...
That solely gives Team FF an edge in this fight, Cast Reflect, when Mewtwo psyballs one of them it gets bounced back at Mewtwo or Bolas... Bolas tries to enter their minds, gets psychic feedback from his own Spell...
Interesting.
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