Saw the vs Superman thread, so I did a search... Let me say, I was very surprised not to find at least one of these.
I am not very well versed in the superman what-nots so bare with me. I believe most people prefer the pre-crisis superman right?... so I guess we will go with that one.
As for Goku, SSJ4.
Now, I cannot attest to the attributes of Superman, except that he is built like a brick **** house, is faster than a speeding bullet (some say faster than light), and can shoot lasers out of his eyes. I can however give some credit to Goku. I will first go through some of the enemies he or his allies has defeated, just so you know what kind of level he is fighting on.
1. Vegeta (before he was a super saiyan): A Saiyan Elite, who worked under frieza. At this point in the time line we've already seen vegeta destroy the planet Arlia with just 2 fingers. He was defeated by Goku along with his sidekicks (Gohan, Krillin, and Yajarobi). By the end of the battle both lay beaten and broken. Vegeta is able to muster the strength to crawl to his space pod and retreat.
2. Frieza (fully transformed): Multiple times leading up to this point Frieza was referenced as destroying multiple galaxies. In the movie Bardock: Father of Goku we saw him destroy the planet Vegeta which was the home planet to all saiyans, whom he had already enslaved. It was a close match untill... Goku made his first super saiyan transformation. After that, it was simply unfair, Gokus bested Frieza by at least double in every attribute.
3. Cell (Perfect Cell): (Goku's first fight as an ascended saiyan or SSJ2) Cell was created by Dr. Gero, who collected the DNA of the most powerful warriors up until this point and fused them into the perfect warrior android. Cell retained the best attributes of all the races of warrior, including regeneration from the Namekian DNA. The fight between Cell and Goku was even, so Goku let his son Gohan step in (who was the strongest character at the time). Cell realized he could not beat Gohan, so decided to self destruct. Goku quickly used his instant transmission to teleport himself and cell to King Kai's planet (this was never addressed by the series but to the best of my knowledge king kai is a one of many 'gods' in the DBZ world). Cell exploded killing Goku, King Kai, and destroying the planet. Due to his regeneration capabilities, Cell survived the explosion, returned to earth, and was eventually disintegrated down to the very last cell by Gohan.
4. Majin Buu: A wicked being created by a sorcerer millenia ago. Majin Buus first reign of terror tore through several galaxies ending up in the land of the Supreme Kai (4 kai that watched over 4 sectors of the universe). All four fought Majin Buu only one survived by sealing buu in a sort of 'egg' that made him pretty much dormant IIRC. Eons later the son of the sorcery sought out this egg (which just so happened to be on earth... big surprise). Anyway, he frees buu from his prison. Goku reveals his SSJ3 form. Even then he was unable to defeat Buu, they were seemingly even matched. After an extremely long and convoluted saga, including several transformations from Buu, the fight ends up where it left off, the Kai planet. Goku and Buu are facing off for the last time, this time Goku is able to seal the deal with a spirit bomb, which utilized the life force from every living being, plant and even the earth itself.
5. Jenemba: This was a trippy movie... I was pretty lost during the whole thing. I get the jist of how he came to be, but cant quite put it in words. Anyway... He wasnt the brightest villain ever but he did have the ability to manipulate time and space (gotta love punching air and your fist appearing in the other guys face). Goku SSJ3 was no match for him, so Goku and Vegeta Fused, creating a whole new being known as Gogeta. Who made quick work of the time/space manipulating creature.
Omega Shenron: Omega Shenron is made up of pure evil. No really, he is the physical manifestation of all that is evil, hate, spite, malice and all that other stuff from the people of earth over the years. And some how came to be from the destruction of the dragon balls (dont remember exactly). Any way... he is the ultimate bad guy... way worse than anyone else. Not only was Goku SSJ4 no match for him but neither were the combined efforts of Goku and Vegeta, both at SSJ4. They Fused again to create SSJ4 Gogeta, who straight up kicked the **** out of Omega Shenron... But, blah blah blah, it couldnt be that simple. It came down once again to Goku hurling a spirit bomb, but this time it contained the the life force from the entire universe... pretty nifty huh?
Breakdown between the two.
Speed: about even (excluding instant transmission). Strength: Your call, Superman is f***ing Superman, But there is something to be said about SSJ4. Ill put it this way... Ive seen both of them do things that shouldnt be done... even in the comic book/manga world. Stamina: Im gonna give it to Superman Most Devestating Attack: Goku, with the spirit bomb. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the average kamehameha wave would be more powerful than anything I know superman can do... That not saying much, because I dont know much about superman, so take that as you will.
And lets say that the fight is a scheduled kind of event. No cryptonite and no pulling tails ect, ect, ect... Fair fight.
I'm pretty sure Goku has every advantage except one: he cannot survive in space. Superman can. So if Superman could get Goku into space, Goku would suffocate and Superman would win.
I don't know much about Goku, so I won't vote, but depending on which Superman, I don't think people realize how ridiculous he is.
Superman is so strong that he makes the keys to the Fortress of Solitude out of Neutron Star. He's so smart that he was able to create a universe to figure out how things would be if he wasn't around. He moves faster than thought. If the authors didn't constantly forget these things and handicap him, nothing would ever be a challenge for him.
This argument has been going on and in some cases is still going on in countless threads across the internet.
There are so many depending variables especially on both sides of the argument it isn't even funny.
Yes, Goku in his Super Sayian Four form is incredibly strong and has the potential power to a lot of damage however he doesn't have enough energy to even destroy an entire planet. One can try and argue this all they want but his power has never been consistently defined and hasn't been since the end of Season 2 of Dragon Ball Z. He can't breathe in space, he has to take sometimes ridiculous amounts of time to power up, and to even suggest he could fire off a single Kamehameha or let along a spirit bomb in the time it would take for Superman to get to him is laughable. Even if the small inconsistencies from the anime filler was removed where he could barely lift a bus full of children and was actually hurt by Krillin throwing a rock at him in Super Sayian two form he wouldn't be much.
Hell even in his movie form Goku is little better.
Akira Toriyama has even stated he was never good at story telling to begin with and could never account for the ridiculous power levels in Dragon Ball Z. He only drew Goku like he did when he became a super sayian to save the printing people toner. The fans have taken literally everything out of proportion especially when it comes to comparing the anime with the movies and especially with the manga. It is ridiculous.
Superman on the other hand has at least some well defined powers on his end of the argument.
Superman at any time when he isn't being exposed to Kyrptonite can move an entire planet on his own. He can lift nearly 200 quintillion tons. He has an entire array of super powers most of which Goku couldn't match even if he tried and let us not forget his top moving speed is nearly the speed of light, second only to the Flash as far as I recall. He has an insane invulnerability and can even sit in the heat of the sun to attain even greater power.
Personally, in my opinion I just cannot understand looking at the bare facts how Goku has a chance at any time if it is a straight up fight between them. He wouldn't even have a chance to make it to Super Sayian form before Superman was already ripping him to pieces.
I believe most people prefer the pre-crisis superman right?... so I guess we will go with that one.
If that is the case then Superman all the way. There is a reason that version of Superman is often called "the planet juggler". He was basically god in a superman suit.
There are two things to consider in my opinion when it comes to this discussion. One: Do you consider Ki attacks like the Kamehameha magic? If so then Goku is the obvious winner as Superman is weak to magic. The other is that in stories involving these characters, Superman is usually losing some if not all of his power while Goku is given more power, both because of plot device.
Also I feel like Broly v. Doomsday would be a better fight.
THere are some definitions, In Dragon ball Z when Goku and Piccolo fight Radits its shown that Goku (AT THAT TIME ) was not fast enough too dodge light, However later on (in the Cell saga) he is dodging Light based attacks like they are slow Goku is ALOT faster in the Majinbo saga and exponentially faster still in GT. Goku does possess the ability too destroy a planet however has never used it becuase he is a "good guy" (ie destroy a planet is normal deemed an "evil" act) Goku also has a large array of underutilized abilitys (such as reading minds, ) Superman does have brains on Goku however, but I would say goku has wisdom on sups. Also we need to know why they are fighting this is very important. I question if goku CAN breath in space and just doesn't know it. Vegeta can and he is also a full blooded sayin. While I doupt goku would have enough time too pull off a spirit bomb normal energy attacks, including his kamahamaha wave take little time too pull off so I can see them being used. I am tempted too say Goku has more "fighing" experance, Normaly super man just goes "I'm taking you in maybe afew punches" where as goku is used too fighting heavly. "
Which age are we looking at for Superman? If you are looking at the modern age, you will see that he is alot more human like then Kryptonian. He has been getting weaker and weaker so we can relate to him easier. during this time, Goku has gone from a dumb kid to a SS4. if we look at the Golden Age Superman, we see someone who has more power then imaginable. He was more Superman then Clark Kent. Darkseid and him were on the same level.
Also, when they fight... I hope its not in our universe...
Which age are we looking at for Superman? If you are looking at the modern age, you will see that he is alot more human like then Kryptonian. He has been getting weaker and weaker so we can relate to him easier. during this time, Goku has gone from a dumb kid to a SS4. if we look at the Golden Age Superman, we see someone who has more power then imaginable. He was more Superman then Clark Kent. Darkseid and him were on the same level.
Also, when they fight... I hope its not in our universe...
If we presume the most powerful versions, Superman Prime beats SS4 Goku.
The thing with SS4 Goku is that Goku's base is the "idiot playful hero" while Superman has an adult level disposition and access to more gear. Ultimately it may come down to Goku having the wishing ball things or not, especially if Goku's attacks aren't counted as magic but rather "chi attacks" to which Superman can defend against.
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This argument has been going on and in some cases is still going on in countless threads across the internet.
There are so many depending variables especially on both sides of the argument it isn't even funny.
Yes, Goku in his Super Sayian Four form is incredibly strong and has the potential power to a lot of damage however he doesn't have enough energy to even destroy an entire planet. One can try and argue this all they want but his power has never been consistently defined and hasn't been since the end of Season 2 of Dragon Ball Z. He can't breathe in space, he has to take sometimes ridiculous amounts of time to power up, and to even suggest he could fire off a single Kamehameha or let along a spirit bomb in the time it would take for Superman to get to him is laughable. Even if the small inconsistencies from the anime filler was removed where he could barely lift a bus full of children and was actually hurt by Krillin throwing a rock at him in Super Sayian two form he wouldn't be much.
Hell even in his movie form Goku is little better.
Akira Toriyama has even stated he was never good at story telling to begin with and could never account for the ridiculous power levels in Dragon Ball Z. He only drew Goku like he did when he became a super sayian to save the printing people toner. The fans have taken literally everything out of proportion especially when it comes to comparing the anime with the movies and especially with the manga. It is ridiculous.
Superman on the other hand has at least some well defined powers on his end of the argument.
Superman at any time when he isn't being exposed to Kyrptonite can move an entire planet on his own. He can lift nearly 200 quintillion tons. He has an entire array of super powers most of which Goku couldn't match even if he tried and let us not forget his top moving speed is nearly the speed of light, second only to the Flash as far as I recall. He has an insane invulnerability and can even sit in the heat of the sun to attain even greater power.
Personally, in my opinion I just cannot understand looking at the bare facts how Goku has a chance at any time if it is a straight up fight between them. He wouldn't even have a chance to make it to Super Sayian form before Superman was already ripping him to pieces.
You look like more a superman fanboy than those so called DBZ fanboys.
He said SSJ4 Goku right? You argue he can't destroy a planet?
Now, this is only for those who don't know dbz, the others already know:
In that show there are power levels. There are no units but there are two times they are measured (I think the second time there was units, can't remember the name).
Now, a normal human with a shotgun has a power level of 5 IIRC. At the beginning of the series the main character was around 350(plus minus 50) with a handicap. His first opponent was I think 1200 and could catch a bullet with two fingers. Now, the first person we see destroying a planet is from the same race as the main character and start with destroying a planet with two finger. His power level was 16000(destroy planet with two finger). Skip a few episode there's this guy who becomes the main antagonist. He's seen destroy a planet, with his, index finger, while also destroying everyone in the way, those trying to stop him. He has 5 transformation. his 2nd one brings him at a power level of over 1 million (this is last time these power levels are mentioned.) He then transforms 3 more times and mentions once that transforming increases his power by 100% (he says he goes from 50% to 100% between his 4th and 5th.) So doubling every transformation gives him this: 1:500 000, 2:1 000 000, 3:2 000 000, 4:4 000 000, 5: 8 000 000.
Now, he is the 4th antagonist, the planet destroyer is 2nd and 1200 is first. You see how these grow exponentially? 1 200 > 16 000 > 180 000 > 8 000 000+
The main character, goku, has a technique that doubles his power level, for a short time. He used it vs the 2nd villain (16000, destroy planet two fingers.) He improved on it, to be able to use it to times four. Also vs the 2nd guy. By the time he was fighting the fourth, he was a times twenty. Then he transformed. Super Sayain. He then went from being murdered vs power level 4 000 000 to being untouched by power level 8 000 000. He basically almost killed the guy with 1 one handed Ki blast. Oh and he survived the planet he was on exploding.
Now, I'm not sure how to proceed, see how the bad guys get a lot stronger every time? That was the fourth? Following it came Dr Gero, the Androids, Cell (3 transformation). By this time they couldn't orient their blasts towards the earth, "You're going to destroy the whole planet, father!!! You've got to stop it!!!" or "Hey, what he doing? KA ME- Everyone, get down, take cover, get moving, Goku's releasing the Kamehameha wave! ME- Hahahahaha, Goku wouldn't dare release the Kamehameha wave from there, he'll destroy the earth if he does. HA- *drops grin* *teleports beside gim* NO HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!"
Anyways. From then you have Babidi, Vegeta and Majin Buu as enemies. Majin Buu has destroyed Galaxies. Goku turns Super Sayain 2 and 3 there. He's a lot stronger, as you can tell. Note that Babidi is not a fighter but mostly has fighters he controls (Buu was awakened by Babidi who thought he could control him.)
Then another series where he managed to fight like 3 more guys, and turns into Super Sayain 4. He then in his normal state (not even super sayain) managed to collect energy from everywhere in the universe.
But no, he's never been proven capable of destroying a planet...
Dragonball, Dragonball Z, and Dragonball GT are all owned by FUNimation, Toei Animation, Fuji TV, and Akira Toriyama. Please support the official release. I am making no profit off of these videos, this is purely for educational purposes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B37HSoPYnWE
Majin Buu fighting the supreme kais. (The supreme kais are the guardians of the universe. You and I would refer to them as Gods.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrStPm7zyok
Vegeta destroys planet Arlia, and has yet to make his first super saiyan transformation. As the above poster stated his power level is somewhere around 16,000-ish (compared to your or my 5). If I had to guess at Goku SSJ4's power level... I would safely assume its somewhere in the tens of billions.
Theses are just a few of the examples I can recall off the top of my head and could find on youtube. Theres a lot more that I would like find and tons (im sure) that I cant remember. Anyway, hope this aids in the debate.
You look like more a superman fanboy than those so called DBZ fanboys....
I more or less skimmed your reponse but I have the gist of what you said.
Not really. I actually like the Dragon Ball series on the whole I just don't think Goku can beat Superman. Just looking at the bare facts, in my opinion, between powers and how fast they move and the strength between both in a fair fight I still believe Superman would win.
It was a poor argument on the whole on my part after discussing this with my brother. Goku has the potential to destroy a planet given some portions of the series though sometimes those portions are just made worse by the American translations being ridiculous. Ex: Brolly destroying the South Galaxy when in the original japanese translation all it said was "It was being attacked" and King Kai said "If this continues it would be seriously damaged...".
Though, this just harkens back to my point. Goku's abilities and powers are so ill defined after Season 2 of Dragon Ball Z. It doesn't help that there are serious mistranslations or intentional translations between the American and Japanese versions that make everyone's power and abilities in Dragon Ball Z seem off the scale. Though, I think it was done on purpose to just make the shows and movies more interesting but it makes little sense especially with the anime filler and the discrepencies with the original manga which is generally the best source to truly measure the characters.
When the show's creator even agrees somewhat and goes on to say he was never good at storytelling and starting with Cell he was being pressured to rush out a story line for profit. I don't think power levels are going to make much sense or be a reliable source to reference.
Goku does have insane power in general if he has the time to power up, the time to say "Kamehameha", or the time to instant transmission. However, in a fight with superman, whom can move faster than thought most of the time in most of his iterations and has enough strength to push a moon in general and has enough invulnerability to sit in a sun's heat without a problem...it makes no sense how Goku can even move to begin with to fight at all or even damage Superman whatsoever. Especially when most of Goku's opponent's outside of Kid Buu aren't necessarily destroying planets outright like it is an easy feat to do.
Frieza's destruction of planet vegeta is more an ability than an outright showing of power, sort of like Krillin's destructo disc which also doesn't make sense or the fact that Goku fired a small ki blast into frieza's eye and damaged it in their fight on namek. It also doesn't make sense that Vegeta going all out in the later seasons and hitting Earth with much larger and powerful blasts of Ki doesn't destroy it whereas in Season 2 of DBZ he outright disintegrated an entire world...then again it doesn't make sense for that spirit bomb Goku created that slammed into Frieza that was immense didn't destroy planet Namek in season 2. It also doesn't make sense for the spirit bomb Goku created at the end of GT not destroying the earth consdiering how powerful it is let alone the Big Bang Kamehameha he used on the last evil dragon. And what was up with that Kamehameha fight with Cell between Gohan and Cell? Cell more or less states he is going to destroy Earth with that attack and yet it is tiny in comparison to attacks shown earlier in the cell saga once it is blasted off the planet by Gohan not to mention for being such an earth destroying attack it really didn't do that much damage to the ground beneath it. Though, Cell should have been dead at the beginning of the Cell game's because Picollo's power to regenerate only works if his head isn't destroyed which is what Cell used to come back from Goku's instant Transmission Kamehameha.
There are just so many discrepancies with powers that continue to show how ill defined the DBZ universe that it continues to make me doubt Goku in this fight.
Goku fires a ki blast of whatever size at Superman. It doesn't make sense for him to have the time to do this let alone create a spirit bomb, say Kamehameha, or even move before Superman is already beating him to nothing and applying his other powers in the fight(freezing breath, heat vision,etc).
Goku tries to instant transmission to try and get out of the way of Superman's attacks. It makes no sense how this works because he needs a ki signal to transport to and Superman is moving faster than he can concentrate to even perform instant transmission.
Again, I just can't see an argument to make Goku win this if they are going up against each other with all their powers considered. I am all for Goku getting an upper hand here. I like DB, DBZ and even the black sheep of the series DBGT and I have all of the seasons of DBZ on DVD and am planning to get Kai or the Dragon Box very soon but I don't see how Goku can win against Superman whom once more has enough strength, by modern estimates, to be 800,000 tons, which is 1.6 billion pounds and his invulnerability although considerable doesn't even matter considering how fast he can move which is sometimes defined as faster than thought other times faster than sound or even sight all of which he is doing without exerting himself to a point of exhaustion.
You seem rather versed in DBZ. Go back to Goku SSJ2 vs Majin Vegeta SSJ2 (this happens throughout the series, but lets just use this one) where Goku and Vegeta are moving so fast that all you can see is the shock waves of their impacts. It cuts in between that and the speed at which you can see them regularly. Now my interpretation of this, is that the 'shock wave' scenes are normal speed, shown to you every now and then to give you a point of reference about how fast they are actually moving. Where as the 'slow-mo' scenes (everything else) are to let you see the action. Of course that isnt spelled out at any point, so that is only my interpretation... Take that how you will.
If in fact Supes is faster that thought, well then... No one can beat him. Period. He would never get hit, no one could even think about hitting him. I would seriously question the integrity of any comic/manga/cartoon that depicted such a character, since there simply could not be a confrontation in the first place, in turn there would be no story.
Now speed of sight... thats actually not that fast, 26 frames per second I believe. Goku would absolutely own him, as we already know that Goku moves faster than the speed of sight.
Speed of light. Id say they are evenly matched at that point.
And if we are to assume such a thing (which I am... Cause Im a BOSS). There would be plenty of time for Goku to use any of his techniques including I.T. or the kamehameha wave.
Edit: As for the discrepancies in power levels. There are actually sites that are dedicated to putting the power levels at each each stage of every character in perspective simply by common sense. I cant recall the sites, though I have stumbled across them in the past with inquiries. I believe its a UK based site?
Anyway, what Im saying is that by using simple logic, its not that difficult to estimate how powerful they are.
And simply put. They had to dumb a lot of the battles down. If someone did destroy the earth with a wimpy little blast that someone else dodged... well, shows over.
Im pretty sure all the powers displayed by superman to even compare him to Goku are from the classic "Golden Age" superman. Now this super man is so powerful that at one time he sneezed and he moved the STARS!! (I am not joking) So im thinking this kind of Superman cant be compared since the method of writing is not even taking itself seriously in my opinion.
Now, modern age superman is almost completely de-powered. In the morning cartoons Superman struggles pushing a Nazi roller tank type machine. (basically the size of a building) he gets hurt by explosions, robots, lazer weapons etc. I think this is not a fair comparison either since he is as strong as the plot requires.
Now i bring my main argument.
Superman fights in the real world planet earth. He fights regular people, Lex Luthor, Metallo, Super powered Humans, Mutants, robots etc. He sometimes fight aliens and super powerful demi-god type villains but not on a regular basis and he has never fought one of these with ease.
Now i bring my case to Goku. He doesnt fight in a realistic planet earth. He fights in a fantasy world. He never comes in contact with regular Humans on Dragon Ball Z and onwards. He fights super powerful space conquering enemies on a regular basis. Raditz, he's weakest villain (power level around 1,200) is stated as moving faster than light (probably translation error but lets just say hes fast) Piccolo, (power level less than 1000) destroyed the moon one episode after (effortlessly).
Fast foward, Freeza, base form regulary destroys planets (Hes 500,000 times stronger than Piccolo) Ultimate form Freeza's power level is around 12,000,000 to Gokus 15,000,000 and these are vague aproximates. At this level of power id say they can destroy the galaxy.
Fast foward 200 episodes. Goku SS2 multiplies his SS1 powers aprox 50 times. Goku's SS3 cant be measured i wont even mention SS4. But Gokus strength could destroy the entire universe. He already gathered energy from the entire universe at his base form.
Gokus speed it's instantaneous. He can teleport anywhere so speed is irrelevant at this point, but lets just say he still needs concentration. Gokus Flight speed is proportionate to his strength. Saying this, regular base Goku already surpases light speed a million times over. (Even tough in the real universe this is not possible as it would require infinite energy). Another example; during the first season (before SS1) Just flying to planet namek in a regular ship in aprox. a week (an extra-solar planet) it's already proof that faster than light speed in Goku's universe its trivial.
Conclusion: Goku is way more powerful than Superman because his universe allows him to be. If Superman was moved to Gokus world, Krillin would beat him. (sorry but there is no doubt in my mind) The current, modern Superman is based on real world rules (loosely) and fight real world threats that are infinitesimal when compared to what Goku is up against.
Kaio-ken Goku would wipe Superman's little baby face all over the floor, with a kryptonight kaio-ken fused mega-ultra-radiating sensu bean swallowed. Regardless of said meal, he could easily destroy Superman. My scouter clearly shows Superman at a nearly 500,000 pl. Goku's a real man, and shows what the letter S truly stands for.
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Not sure about your second point. I don't think Goku was SS2 yet. I think he was still SS1, but can't check ATM.
No, Gohan was a super saiyan in that movie. IIRC Gohan went SSJ1 during the Cell saga, in which he also went SSJ2. Goku had already achieved SSJ2 at this point. So if gohan was SSJ1 in the movie Goku had to have benn SSJ2... right?
As evidence, even in the ludicrously low power level he was depicted as during the Justice League Cartoons (Full Power Superman = Why do we have a league?) watch this excerpt from the Justice League Unlimited Series Finale
Thats areally awesome clip, i never saw the ending to that series. But i have to stay with Goku on this one. Im not saying by any means Superman in any incarnation is weak but that Goku especially SS4 is just MIND BOGGLINGLY OMGWT^%@BBQ!!!??? Powerful....
Raditz, he's weakest villain (power level around 1,200) is stated as moving faster than light (probably translation error but lets just say hes fast)
Is is a translation error.
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Piccolo, (power level less than 1000) destroyed the moon one episode after (effortlessly).
This is just plot related stupidity. It is for the convenience of the writing to get rid of Gohan's Oozaru form. I never accept this as a proper source for anything.
Quote from Zeriel »
But Gokus strength could destroy the entire universe. He already gathered energy from the entire universe at his base form.
And yet in base form he couldn't lift a bus of children alone in the later seasons. Even if it is filler. Though, I don't take the anime as a proper source for these kind of discussions anyways. They are so filled with discrepancies and mistranslations it makes things very confusing and wrong.
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The current, modern Superman is based on real world rules (loosely) and fight real world threats that are infinitesimal when compared to what Goku is up against.
I don't think so. Superboy Prime, the enemy of the Infinite Crises, took not only modern Superman at his best but also an alternate universe version of himself, Kal-El, and several portions of the Lantern Corp to beat. Superboy Prime, being the evil version of Superman, is the Superman from the central DC Universe(why he is evil? don't ask me I didn't read all of it) is so strong he can literally take galaxy ending Supernovas to the face without flinching, rip holes in time and space and alter time and he has a power suit on that literally abosrbs yellow sunlight around him and feeds him perpetually powering him at all times. He is essentially and blatantly shown to be as strong, fast, and has as many powers as Silver Age Superman which is like a slightly depowered version of himself from the golden age where Superman was essentially God.
His only real weakness is, possibly, Kryptonite from his own universe...that doesn't exist any longer(it is a very involved process that led to him being attacked with said Kryptonite). Technically he has other weaknesses but from what I've seen of him he literally learns to get over his weaknesses over time.
They didn't even defeat him in the end. He is being held prisoner in a makeshift holding cell using the Red Sun and the power of the Lantern Corp at the moment in the continuity of DC.
Superman over the years has fought many enemies that are easily threats to Goku like this or worse.
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If in fact Supes is faster that thought, well then... No one can beat him. Period. He would never get hit, no one could even think about hitting him. I would seriously question the integrity of any comic/manga/cartoon that depicted such a character, since there simply could not be a confrontation in the first place, in turn there would be no story.
Now speed of sight... thats actually not that fast, 26 frames per second I believe. Goku would absolutely own him, as we already know that Goku moves faster than the speed of sight.
Speed of light. Id say they are evenly matched at that point.
This is my problem believing Goku could even fight Superman in the first place, again, in my opinion.
There are so many writers from the past in his pre crises days showing Superman moving faster than thought at all times. It was why Luthor originally was just a joke and all his regular enemies were bank robbers and bad guys that lost in mere panels sometimes dying due to his speed and strength being so great. There even moments when Superman was literally moving so fast he could do two things at once and could not be seen moving. There were a lot of double issues with tons of advertisement filler in the middle to pad the comic books.
After the end of the Silver Age when pre-crises ended things got a little more believable but, still his speed was then played with generally being between faster than a speeding bullet all the way to in and around light speed.
In modern times, even after being depowered his super speed has always sat once more between faster than a speeding bullet and in and around light speed depending on the author.
After looking at all of the powers and abilities shown throughout Dragon Ball Z at no time do I think Goku is anywhere near the speed of light. I hardly think he is faster than the speed of sound. There has never been a shred of evidence from the manga nor the anime that even gives credence to this idea that he can move faster than light let alone attack outside of maybe an offhand mistranslation which isn't evidence at all it is simply a tweak to make the show matters more dramatic. The Instant Transmission thing I will buy but even then he doesn't use that as a means to attack- he uses it simply to move. Not to mention if he was able to move at the speed of light he wouldn't need instant transmission, he would just fly everywhere. This is just speculative fan nonsense.
Piccolo gave the only explanation on the movement of characters in Dragon Ball Z. You have to feel the ki of the people fighting but Superman having no real ki signature makes that whole process null and void. This doesn't explain how fast they are moving nor does it give you any idea how the fighting speeds work at all. It is just you have to accept it. It is ludicrous.
Again, I can't help but feel the entire Dragon Ball Z power levels and whatever they stand for is built on a undefined house of straws that just convolute everything and create glaring inconsistencies in powers and ability.
It brings Goku's abilities and powers into question immediately. Not that the diverse writers of Superman don't bring Superman's abilities in question but at least with Superman there is a little more consistency in what his powers are. There is a little more concrete evidence there than with the shaky foundations Toriyama laid. Not that he didn't already state throughout a number of interviews in the past he planned for any of this. He didn't take account for Goku's power at any time. He just wanted to save his printer some toner and conclude Goku's story right. It was the publisher's that demanded more story and thus he had to create a convoluted inconsistent crayon smeared mess that was the Cell and Buu Sagas. It has made it so fans have to literally spend time out of their lives to try and logically explain things and most of these logical arguments fail once you take into account the inconsistent results of certain battles, ki attacks, and events from the beginning of the series where it a little more grounded to the end where Goku slams a spirit bomb into the Kai planet and still doesn't even blow that up. It only gets worse when you try to bring events from the movies into this mess. When logic fails and the inconsistencies win out math and science are generally brought into play to try and justify things and that in itself proves little but fans are good at math and can speculate anything. It then turns either silly or so convoluted people give up in flame written posts all over the internet and especially Youtube comment sections.
I won't however completely put Goku out. Again, I am a DBZ fan after all. I can say without a doubt Goku's power from what little I can consistently say he has throughout the latter section of DBZ and what we were shown in DBGT is enough to hurt or even seriously injure the man of steel at least. The modern estimates is that Superman needs to be hit with a 50 megaton blast more or less to be knocked out and I am assuming more to be killed by sheer force. I could see that happening with a big enough ki blast assuming Goku can hit him and assuming Ki blasts give off energy in their explosions like a megaton blast, which sadly, again is another undefined piece of storytelling. Hell, I could even see him killing Superman given enough powering up but only if he hits him and given Superman's speed and other powers I really don't know what would happen.
This is why I liked to say the outcome of this fight is simply subjective.
Superman, all the way,
As evidence, even in the ludicrously low power level he was depicted as during the Justice League Cartoons (Full Power Superman = Why do we have a league?) watch this excerpt from the Justice League Unlimited Series Finale
Whoa, I didn't see the end of that series either. That was amazing. I especially still say Superman has this fight.
As for the discrepancies in power levels. There are actually sites that are dedicated to putting the power levels at each each stage of every character in perspective simply by common sense. I cant recall the sites, though I have stumbled across them in the past with inquiries. I believe its a UK based site?
Anyway, what Im saying is that by using simple logic, its not that difficult to estimate how powerful they are.
And simply put. They had to dumb a lot of the battles down. If someone did destroy the earth with a wimpy little blast that someone else dodged... well, shows over.
I believe it is called the Daizenshuu but I may be wrong. My brother was deeper into this whole subject more than I was. It showed everyone's power levels, battles, events, and logical guesses later in the series or best guesses for all the characters, etc. However, it didn't explain the inconsistencies. Nothing can really. They are just glaring plot holes in Dragon Ball Z.
Go watch Justice League Unlimited. It was the culmination of more than a decade of the animated DC Universe and damn near every episode of the first season (and a big chunk of the second) were just amazing.
Notice how he flies in to hit Darkseid in the air. He isn't in his usual fist forward pose. He's just flying casually, like, sauntering. He literally steps in their with a sideways float at a supremely high velocity.
And I dare you to find a punch in all of DBZ that is up to that one. You know the one.
Watch the S1 Finale with the flash going all out and you'd start to argue that the flash could take goku. Whats the point of all the power in the universe if you can't connect? It'd be Trunks vs Cell all over again.
My brother and I have literally had this conversation every year since Wizards magazine published the original "Character VS Character" fight in their publication showing Goku winning the fight against Superman. It doesn't help that my brother ended up on Youtube about it some years ago and he drones on and on about this every so often he finds a particular violent mouth foaming fan boy on the internet from one camp or the other somewhere flaring the feud back up again. I literally cannot escape it.
This will never end due to the amount of fandom on both sides. That is why I generally try to stay objective if I ever find myself in a thread like this but I literally have never heard a convincing argument for the Goku side even though there is so much wrong with the information used by the fanbase to begin with due to mistranslations and measuring certain events that are obvious plot holes, filler, or just plan speculative assumptions as basis for arguments against Superman. At least with the Superman side of things things aren't so crazy due to the fact that his powers, his story, his abilities are thankfully a little more clear.
I think when it comes down to it you just have to back who you like and leave it at that.
People are kinda missing the whole point that DBZ universe basically says Goku will always get more powerful than whatever enemy he is facing and also can't be killed ...
I love superman as much as the next guy but unless it's Superman Prime (Nigh omnipotent) then he has zero chance at all.
Even then the rules of this fight don't state Goku doesn't have acess to the lovely dragonballs to just wish superman dead/pacified/into a flower seller in paris etc.
Protagonist status, which include the stuff from your first bit, doesn't apply to hero vs hero speculative fights.
@Sioux,
I meant more of a "Why the hell haven't you guys seen JLU"
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I am not very well versed in the superman what-nots so bare with me. I believe most people prefer the pre-crisis superman right?... so I guess we will go with that one.
As for Goku, SSJ4.
Now, I cannot attest to the attributes of Superman, except that he is built like a brick **** house, is faster than a speeding bullet (some say faster than light), and can shoot lasers out of his eyes. I can however give some credit to Goku. I will first go through some of the enemies he or his allies has defeated, just so you know what kind of level he is fighting on.
2. Frieza (fully transformed): Multiple times leading up to this point Frieza was referenced as destroying multiple galaxies. In the movie Bardock: Father of Goku we saw him destroy the planet Vegeta which was the home planet to all saiyans, whom he had already enslaved. It was a close match untill... Goku made his first super saiyan transformation. After that, it was simply unfair, Gokus bested Frieza by at least double in every attribute.
3. Cell (Perfect Cell): (Goku's first fight as an ascended saiyan or SSJ2) Cell was created by Dr. Gero, who collected the DNA of the most powerful warriors up until this point and fused them into the perfect warrior android. Cell retained the best attributes of all the races of warrior, including regeneration from the Namekian DNA. The fight between Cell and Goku was even, so Goku let his son Gohan step in (who was the strongest character at the time). Cell realized he could not beat Gohan, so decided to self destruct. Goku quickly used his instant transmission to teleport himself and cell to King Kai's planet (this was never addressed by the series but to the best of my knowledge king kai is a one of many 'gods' in the DBZ world). Cell exploded killing Goku, King Kai, and destroying the planet. Due to his regeneration capabilities, Cell survived the explosion, returned to earth, and was eventually disintegrated down to the very last cell by Gohan.
4. Majin Buu: A wicked being created by a sorcerer millenia ago. Majin Buus first reign of terror tore through several galaxies ending up in the land of the Supreme Kai (4 kai that watched over 4 sectors of the universe). All four fought Majin Buu only one survived by sealing buu in a sort of 'egg' that made him pretty much dormant IIRC. Eons later the son of the sorcery sought out this egg (which just so happened to be on earth... big surprise). Anyway, he frees buu from his prison. Goku reveals his SSJ3 form. Even then he was unable to defeat Buu, they were seemingly even matched. After an extremely long and convoluted saga, including several transformations from Buu, the fight ends up where it left off, the Kai planet. Goku and Buu are facing off for the last time, this time Goku is able to seal the deal with a spirit bomb, which utilized the life force from every living being, plant and even the earth itself.
5. Jenemba: This was a trippy movie... I was pretty lost during the whole thing. I get the jist of how he came to be, but cant quite put it in words. Anyway... He wasnt the brightest villain ever but he did have the ability to manipulate time and space (gotta love punching air and your fist appearing in the other guys face). Goku SSJ3 was no match for him, so Goku and Vegeta Fused, creating a whole new being known as Gogeta. Who made quick work of the time/space manipulating creature.
Omega Shenron: Omega Shenron is made up of pure evil. No really, he is the physical manifestation of all that is evil, hate, spite, malice and all that other stuff from the people of earth over the years. And some how came to be from the destruction of the dragon balls (dont remember exactly). Any way... he is the ultimate bad guy... way worse than anyone else. Not only was Goku SSJ4 no match for him but neither were the combined efforts of Goku and Vegeta, both at SSJ4. They Fused again to create SSJ4 Gogeta, who straight up kicked the **** out of Omega Shenron... But, blah blah blah, it couldnt be that simple. It came down once again to Goku hurling a spirit bomb, but this time it contained the the life force from the entire universe... pretty nifty huh?
Breakdown between the two.
Speed: about even (excluding instant transmission).
Strength: Your call, Superman is f***ing Superman, But there is something to be said about SSJ4. Ill put it this way... Ive seen both of them do things that shouldnt be done... even in the comic book/manga world.
Stamina: Im gonna give it to Superman
Most Devestating Attack: Goku, with the spirit bomb. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the average kamehameha wave would be more powerful than anything I know superman can do... That not saying much, because I dont know much about superman, so take that as you will.
And lets say that the fight is a scheduled kind of event. No cryptonite and no pulling tails ect, ect, ect... Fair fight.
My vote... Goku, of course.
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I'm pretty sure Goku has every advantage except one: he cannot survive in space. Superman can. So if Superman could get Goku into space, Goku would suffocate and Superman would win.
Superman is so strong that he makes the keys to the Fortress of Solitude out of Neutron Star. He's so smart that he was able to create a universe to figure out how things would be if he wasn't around. He moves faster than thought. If the authors didn't constantly forget these things and handicap him, nothing would ever be a challenge for him.
This argument has been going on and in some cases is still going on in countless threads across the internet.
There are so many depending variables especially on both sides of the argument it isn't even funny.
Yes, Goku in his Super Sayian Four form is incredibly strong and has the potential power to a lot of damage however he doesn't have enough energy to even destroy an entire planet. One can try and argue this all they want but his power has never been consistently defined and hasn't been since the end of Season 2 of Dragon Ball Z. He can't breathe in space, he has to take sometimes ridiculous amounts of time to power up, and to even suggest he could fire off a single Kamehameha or let along a spirit bomb in the time it would take for Superman to get to him is laughable. Even if the small inconsistencies from the anime filler was removed where he could barely lift a bus full of children and was actually hurt by Krillin throwing a rock at him in Super Sayian two form he wouldn't be much.
Hell even in his movie form Goku is little better.
Akira Toriyama has even stated he was never good at story telling to begin with and could never account for the ridiculous power levels in Dragon Ball Z. He only drew Goku like he did when he became a super sayian to save the printing people toner. The fans have taken literally everything out of proportion especially when it comes to comparing the anime with the movies and especially with the manga. It is ridiculous.
Superman on the other hand has at least some well defined powers on his end of the argument.
Superman at any time when he isn't being exposed to Kyrptonite can move an entire planet on his own. He can lift nearly 200 quintillion tons. He has an entire array of super powers most of which Goku couldn't match even if he tried and let us not forget his top moving speed is nearly the speed of light, second only to the Flash as far as I recall. He has an insane invulnerability and can even sit in the heat of the sun to attain even greater power.
Personally, in my opinion I just cannot understand looking at the bare facts how Goku has a chance at any time if it is a straight up fight between them. He wouldn't even have a chance to make it to Super Sayian form before Superman was already ripping him to pieces.
If that is the case then Superman all the way. There is a reason that version of Superman is often called "the planet juggler". He was basically god in a superman suit.
Also I feel like Broly v. Doomsday would be a better fight.
Also, when they fight... I hope its not in our universe...
If we presume the most powerful versions, Superman Prime beats SS4 Goku.
The thing with SS4 Goku is that Goku's base is the "idiot playful hero" while Superman has an adult level disposition and access to more gear. Ultimately it may come down to Goku having the wishing ball things or not, especially if Goku's attacks aren't counted as magic but rather "chi attacks" to which Superman can defend against.
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I'd give the nod to Superman.
You look like more a superman fanboy than those so called DBZ fanboys.
He said SSJ4 Goku right? You argue he can't destroy a planet?
Now, this is only for those who don't know dbz, the others already know:
In that show there are power levels. There are no units but there are two times they are measured (I think the second time there was units, can't remember the name).
Now, a normal human with a shotgun has a power level of 5 IIRC. At the beginning of the series the main character was around 350(plus minus 50) with a handicap. His first opponent was I think 1200 and could catch a bullet with two fingers. Now, the first person we see destroying a planet is from the same race as the main character and start with destroying a planet with two finger. His power level was 16000(destroy planet with two finger). Skip a few episode there's this guy who becomes the main antagonist. He's seen destroy a planet, with his, index finger, while also destroying everyone in the way, those trying to stop him. He has 5 transformation. his 2nd one brings him at a power level of over 1 million (this is last time these power levels are mentioned.) He then transforms 3 more times and mentions once that transforming increases his power by 100% (he says he goes from 50% to 100% between his 4th and 5th.) So doubling every transformation gives him this: 1:500 000, 2:1 000 000, 3:2 000 000, 4:4 000 000, 5: 8 000 000.
Now, he is the 4th antagonist, the planet destroyer is 2nd and 1200 is first. You see how these grow exponentially? 1 200 > 16 000 > 180 000 > 8 000 000+
The main character, goku, has a technique that doubles his power level, for a short time. He used it vs the 2nd villain (16000, destroy planet two fingers.) He improved on it, to be able to use it to times four. Also vs the 2nd guy. By the time he was fighting the fourth, he was a times twenty. Then he transformed. Super Sayain. He then went from being murdered vs power level 4 000 000 to being untouched by power level 8 000 000. He basically almost killed the guy with 1 one handed Ki blast. Oh and he survived the planet he was on exploding.
Now, I'm not sure how to proceed, see how the bad guys get a lot stronger every time? That was the fourth? Following it came Dr Gero, the Androids, Cell (3 transformation). By this time they couldn't orient their blasts towards the earth, "You're going to destroy the whole planet, father!!! You've got to stop it!!!" or "Hey, what he doing? KA ME- Everyone, get down, take cover, get moving, Goku's releasing the Kamehameha wave! ME- Hahahahaha, Goku wouldn't dare release the Kamehameha wave from there, he'll destroy the earth if he does. HA- *drops grin* *teleports beside gim* NO HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!"
Anyways. From then you have Babidi, Vegeta and Majin Buu as enemies. Majin Buu has destroyed Galaxies. Goku turns Super Sayain 2 and 3 there. He's a lot stronger, as you can tell. Note that Babidi is not a fighter but mostly has fighters he controls (Buu was awakened by Babidi who thought he could control him.)
Then another series where he managed to fight like 3 more guys, and turns into Super Sayain 4. He then in his normal state (not even super sayain) managed to collect energy from everywhere in the universe.
But no, he's never been proven capable of destroying a planet...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voUtB7-K7Tw
gotenks circling the world 9 times in 5 seconds. Note: Goku SSJ4 is omnipotently more powerful than Gotenks SSJ2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DlXamubEc4
Broly destroys the south galaxy in seconds. Note: Broly was defeated by Goku in his SSJ2 form.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B37HSoPYnWE
Majin Buu fighting the supreme kais. (The supreme kais are the guardians of the universe. You and I would refer to them as Gods.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrStPm7zyok
Vegeta destroys planet Arlia, and has yet to make his first super saiyan transformation. As the above poster stated his power level is somewhere around 16,000-ish (compared to your or my 5). If I had to guess at Goku SSJ4's power level... I would safely assume its somewhere in the tens of billions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtymPay6S3E
Goku uses his instant transmission technique to teleport to another dimension. Spiffy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zf4ShYOO3UA
Buu ripping hole in time and space.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiSJ92pXqa0
janemba manipulating time and space at will.
Theses are just a few of the examples I can recall off the top of my head and could find on youtube. Theres a lot more that I would like find and tons (im sure) that I cant remember. Anyway, hope this aids in the debate.
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Not really. I actually like the Dragon Ball series on the whole I just don't think Goku can beat Superman. Just looking at the bare facts, in my opinion, between powers and how fast they move and the strength between both in a fair fight I still believe Superman would win.
It was a poor argument on the whole on my part after discussing this with my brother. Goku has the potential to destroy a planet given some portions of the series though sometimes those portions are just made worse by the American translations being ridiculous. Ex: Brolly destroying the South Galaxy when in the original japanese translation all it said was "It was being attacked" and King Kai said "If this continues it would be seriously damaged...".
Though, this just harkens back to my point. Goku's abilities and powers are so ill defined after Season 2 of Dragon Ball Z. It doesn't help that there are serious mistranslations or intentional translations between the American and Japanese versions that make everyone's power and abilities in Dragon Ball Z seem off the scale. Though, I think it was done on purpose to just make the shows and movies more interesting but it makes little sense especially with the anime filler and the discrepencies with the original manga which is generally the best source to truly measure the characters.
When the show's creator even agrees somewhat and goes on to say he was never good at storytelling and starting with Cell he was being pressured to rush out a story line for profit. I don't think power levels are going to make much sense or be a reliable source to reference.
Goku does have insane power in general if he has the time to power up, the time to say "Kamehameha", or the time to instant transmission. However, in a fight with superman, whom can move faster than thought most of the time in most of his iterations and has enough strength to push a moon in general and has enough invulnerability to sit in a sun's heat without a problem...it makes no sense how Goku can even move to begin with to fight at all or even damage Superman whatsoever. Especially when most of Goku's opponent's outside of Kid Buu aren't necessarily destroying planets outright like it is an easy feat to do.
Frieza's destruction of planet vegeta is more an ability than an outright showing of power, sort of like Krillin's destructo disc which also doesn't make sense or the fact that Goku fired a small ki blast into frieza's eye and damaged it in their fight on namek. It also doesn't make sense that Vegeta going all out in the later seasons and hitting Earth with much larger and powerful blasts of Ki doesn't destroy it whereas in Season 2 of DBZ he outright disintegrated an entire world...then again it doesn't make sense for that spirit bomb Goku created that slammed into Frieza that was immense didn't destroy planet Namek in season 2. It also doesn't make sense for the spirit bomb Goku created at the end of GT not destroying the earth consdiering how powerful it is let alone the Big Bang Kamehameha he used on the last evil dragon. And what was up with that Kamehameha fight with Cell between Gohan and Cell? Cell more or less states he is going to destroy Earth with that attack and yet it is tiny in comparison to attacks shown earlier in the cell saga once it is blasted off the planet by Gohan not to mention for being such an earth destroying attack it really didn't do that much damage to the ground beneath it. Though, Cell should have been dead at the beginning of the Cell game's because Picollo's power to regenerate only works if his head isn't destroyed which is what Cell used to come back from Goku's instant Transmission Kamehameha.
There are just so many discrepancies with powers that continue to show how ill defined the DBZ universe that it continues to make me doubt Goku in this fight.
Goku fires a ki blast of whatever size at Superman. It doesn't make sense for him to have the time to do this let alone create a spirit bomb, say Kamehameha, or even move before Superman is already beating him to nothing and applying his other powers in the fight(freezing breath, heat vision,etc).
Goku tries to instant transmission to try and get out of the way of Superman's attacks. It makes no sense how this works because he needs a ki signal to transport to and Superman is moving faster than he can concentrate to even perform instant transmission.
Again, I just can't see an argument to make Goku win this if they are going up against each other with all their powers considered. I am all for Goku getting an upper hand here. I like DB, DBZ and even the black sheep of the series DBGT and I have all of the seasons of DBZ on DVD and am planning to get Kai or the Dragon Box very soon but I don't see how Goku can win against Superman whom once more has enough strength, by modern estimates, to be 800,000 tons, which is 1.6 billion pounds and his invulnerability although considerable doesn't even matter considering how fast he can move which is sometimes defined as faster than thought other times faster than sound or even sight all of which he is doing without exerting himself to a point of exhaustion.
You seem rather versed in DBZ. Go back to Goku SSJ2 vs Majin Vegeta SSJ2 (this happens throughout the series, but lets just use this one) where Goku and Vegeta are moving so fast that all you can see is the shock waves of their impacts. It cuts in between that and the speed at which you can see them regularly. Now my interpretation of this, is that the 'shock wave' scenes are normal speed, shown to you every now and then to give you a point of reference about how fast they are actually moving. Where as the 'slow-mo' scenes (everything else) are to let you see the action. Of course that isnt spelled out at any point, so that is only my interpretation... Take that how you will.
If in fact Supes is faster that thought, well then... No one can beat him. Period. He would never get hit, no one could even think about hitting him. I would seriously question the integrity of any comic/manga/cartoon that depicted such a character, since there simply could not be a confrontation in the first place, in turn there would be no story.
Now speed of sight... thats actually not that fast, 26 frames per second I believe. Goku would absolutely own him, as we already know that Goku moves faster than the speed of sight.
Speed of light. Id say they are evenly matched at that point.
And if we are to assume such a thing (which I am... Cause Im a BOSS). There would be plenty of time for Goku to use any of his techniques including I.T. or the kamehameha wave.
Edit: As for the discrepancies in power levels. There are actually sites that are dedicated to putting the power levels at each each stage of every character in perspective simply by common sense. I cant recall the sites, though I have stumbled across them in the past with inquiries. I believe its a UK based site?
Anyway, what Im saying is that by using simple logic, its not that difficult to estimate how powerful they are.
And simply put. They had to dumb a lot of the battles down. If someone did destroy the earth with a wimpy little blast that someone else dodged... well, shows over.
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Now, modern age superman is almost completely de-powered. In the morning cartoons Superman struggles pushing a Nazi roller tank type machine. (basically the size of a building) he gets hurt by explosions, robots, lazer weapons etc. I think this is not a fair comparison either since he is as strong as the plot requires.
Now i bring my main argument.
Superman fights in the real world planet earth. He fights regular people, Lex Luthor, Metallo, Super powered Humans, Mutants, robots etc. He sometimes fight aliens and super powerful demi-god type villains but not on a regular basis and he has never fought one of these with ease.
Now i bring my case to Goku. He doesnt fight in a realistic planet earth. He fights in a fantasy world. He never comes in contact with regular Humans on Dragon Ball Z and onwards. He fights super powerful space conquering enemies on a regular basis. Raditz, he's weakest villain (power level around 1,200) is stated as moving faster than light (probably translation error but lets just say hes fast) Piccolo, (power level less than 1000) destroyed the moon one episode after (effortlessly).
Fast foward, Freeza, base form regulary destroys planets (Hes 500,000 times stronger than Piccolo) Ultimate form Freeza's power level is around 12,000,000 to Gokus 15,000,000 and these are vague aproximates. At this level of power id say they can destroy the galaxy.
Fast foward 200 episodes. Goku SS2 multiplies his SS1 powers aprox 50 times. Goku's SS3 cant be measured i wont even mention SS4. But Gokus strength could destroy the entire universe. He already gathered energy from the entire universe at his base form.
Gokus speed it's instantaneous. He can teleport anywhere so speed is irrelevant at this point, but lets just say he still needs concentration. Gokus Flight speed is proportionate to his strength. Saying this, regular base Goku already surpases light speed a million times over. (Even tough in the real universe this is not possible as it would require infinite energy). Another example; during the first season (before SS1) Just flying to planet namek in a regular ship in aprox. a week (an extra-solar planet) it's already proof that faster than light speed in Goku's universe its trivial.
Conclusion: Goku is way more powerful than Superman because his universe allows him to be. If Superman was moved to Gokus world, Krillin would beat him. (sorry but there is no doubt in my mind) The current, modern Superman is based on real world rules (loosely) and fight real world threats that are infinitesimal when compared to what Goku is up against.
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No, Gohan was a super saiyan in that movie. IIRC Gohan went SSJ1 during the Cell saga, in which he also went SSJ2. Goku had already achieved SSJ2 at this point. So if gohan was SSJ1 in the movie Goku had to have benn SSJ2... right?
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As evidence, even in the ludicrously low power level he was depicted as during the Justice League Cartoons (Full Power Superman = Why do we have a league?) watch this excerpt from the Justice League Unlimited Series Finale
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cl_5UwS57X8
You see why superman doesn't just obliterate everything that challenges him.
Is is a translation error.
This is just plot related stupidity. It is for the convenience of the writing to get rid of Gohan's Oozaru form. I never accept this as a proper source for anything.
And yet in base form he couldn't lift a bus of children alone in the later seasons. Even if it is filler. Though, I don't take the anime as a proper source for these kind of discussions anyways. They are so filled with discrepancies and mistranslations it makes things very confusing and wrong.
I don't think so. Superboy Prime, the enemy of the Infinite Crises, took not only modern Superman at his best but also an alternate universe version of himself, Kal-El, and several portions of the Lantern Corp to beat. Superboy Prime, being the evil version of Superman, is the Superman from the central DC Universe(why he is evil? don't ask me I didn't read all of it) is so strong he can literally take galaxy ending Supernovas to the face without flinching, rip holes in time and space and alter time and he has a power suit on that literally abosrbs yellow sunlight around him and feeds him perpetually powering him at all times. He is essentially and blatantly shown to be as strong, fast, and has as many powers as Silver Age Superman which is like a slightly depowered version of himself from the golden age where Superman was essentially God.
His only real weakness is, possibly, Kryptonite from his own universe...that doesn't exist any longer(it is a very involved process that led to him being attacked with said Kryptonite). Technically he has other weaknesses but from what I've seen of him he literally learns to get over his weaknesses over time.
They didn't even defeat him in the end. He is being held prisoner in a makeshift holding cell using the Red Sun and the power of the Lantern Corp at the moment in the continuity of DC.
Superman over the years has fought many enemies that are easily threats to Goku like this or worse.
This is my problem believing Goku could even fight Superman in the first place, again, in my opinion.
There are so many writers from the past in his pre crises days showing Superman moving faster than thought at all times. It was why Luthor originally was just a joke and all his regular enemies were bank robbers and bad guys that lost in mere panels sometimes dying due to his speed and strength being so great. There even moments when Superman was literally moving so fast he could do two things at once and could not be seen moving. There were a lot of double issues with tons of advertisement filler in the middle to pad the comic books.
After the end of the Silver Age when pre-crises ended things got a little more believable but, still his speed was then played with generally being between faster than a speeding bullet all the way to in and around light speed.
In modern times, even after being depowered his super speed has always sat once more between faster than a speeding bullet and in and around light speed depending on the author.
After looking at all of the powers and abilities shown throughout Dragon Ball Z at no time do I think Goku is anywhere near the speed of light. I hardly think he is faster than the speed of sound. There has never been a shred of evidence from the manga nor the anime that even gives credence to this idea that he can move faster than light let alone attack outside of maybe an offhand mistranslation which isn't evidence at all it is simply a tweak to make the show matters more dramatic. The Instant Transmission thing I will buy but even then he doesn't use that as a means to attack- he uses it simply to move. Not to mention if he was able to move at the speed of light he wouldn't need instant transmission, he would just fly everywhere. This is just speculative fan nonsense.
Piccolo gave the only explanation on the movement of characters in Dragon Ball Z. You have to feel the ki of the people fighting but Superman having no real ki signature makes that whole process null and void. This doesn't explain how fast they are moving nor does it give you any idea how the fighting speeds work at all. It is just you have to accept it. It is ludicrous.
Again, I can't help but feel the entire Dragon Ball Z power levels and whatever they stand for is built on a undefined house of straws that just convolute everything and create glaring inconsistencies in powers and ability.
It brings Goku's abilities and powers into question immediately. Not that the diverse writers of Superman don't bring Superman's abilities in question but at least with Superman there is a little more consistency in what his powers are. There is a little more concrete evidence there than with the shaky foundations Toriyama laid. Not that he didn't already state throughout a number of interviews in the past he planned for any of this. He didn't take account for Goku's power at any time. He just wanted to save his printer some toner and conclude Goku's story right. It was the publisher's that demanded more story and thus he had to create a convoluted inconsistent crayon smeared mess that was the Cell and Buu Sagas. It has made it so fans have to literally spend time out of their lives to try and logically explain things and most of these logical arguments fail once you take into account the inconsistent results of certain battles, ki attacks, and events from the beginning of the series where it a little more grounded to the end where Goku slams a spirit bomb into the Kai planet and still doesn't even blow that up. It only gets worse when you try to bring events from the movies into this mess. When logic fails and the inconsistencies win out math and science are generally brought into play to try and justify things and that in itself proves little but fans are good at math and can speculate anything. It then turns either silly or so convoluted people give up in flame written posts all over the internet and especially Youtube comment sections.
I won't however completely put Goku out. Again, I am a DBZ fan after all. I can say without a doubt Goku's power from what little I can consistently say he has throughout the latter section of DBZ and what we were shown in DBGT is enough to hurt or even seriously injure the man of steel at least. The modern estimates is that Superman needs to be hit with a 50 megaton blast more or less to be knocked out and I am assuming more to be killed by sheer force. I could see that happening with a big enough ki blast assuming Goku can hit him and assuming Ki blasts give off energy in their explosions like a megaton blast, which sadly, again is another undefined piece of storytelling. Hell, I could even see him killing Superman given enough powering up but only if he hits him and given Superman's speed and other powers I really don't know what would happen.
This is why I liked to say the outcome of this fight is simply subjective.
Whoa, I didn't see the end of that series either. That was amazing. I especially still say Superman has this fight.
I believe it is called the Daizenshuu but I may be wrong. My brother was deeper into this whole subject more than I was. It showed everyone's power levels, battles, events, and logical guesses later in the series or best guesses for all the characters, etc. However, it didn't explain the inconsistencies. Nothing can really. They are just glaring plot holes in Dragon Ball Z.
Go watch Justice League Unlimited. It was the culmination of more than a decade of the animated DC Universe and damn near every episode of the first season (and a big chunk of the second) were just amazing.
Notice how he flies in to hit Darkseid in the air. He isn't in his usual fist forward pose. He's just flying casually, like, sauntering. He literally steps in their with a sideways float at a supremely high velocity.
And I dare you to find a punch in all of DBZ that is up to that one. You know the one.
Watch the S1 Finale with the flash going all out and you'd start to argue that the flash could take goku. Whats the point of all the power in the universe if you can't connect? It'd be Trunks vs Cell all over again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53OyPYa7SEI
My brother and I have literally had this conversation every year since Wizards magazine published the original "Character VS Character" fight in their publication showing Goku winning the fight against Superman. It doesn't help that my brother ended up on Youtube about it some years ago and he drones on and on about this every so often he finds a particular violent mouth foaming fan boy on the internet from one camp or the other somewhere flaring the feud back up again. I literally cannot escape it.
This will never end due to the amount of fandom on both sides. That is why I generally try to stay objective if I ever find myself in a thread like this but I literally have never heard a convincing argument for the Goku side even though there is so much wrong with the information used by the fanbase to begin with due to mistranslations and measuring certain events that are obvious plot holes, filler, or just plan speculative assumptions as basis for arguments against Superman. At least with the Superman side of things things aren't so crazy due to the fact that his powers, his story, his abilities are thankfully a little more clear.
I think when it comes down to it you just have to back who you like and leave it at that.
Protagonist status, which include the stuff from your first bit, doesn't apply to hero vs hero speculative fights.
@Sioux,
I meant more of a "Why the hell haven't you guys seen JLU"