Let me see if I got this right: First you throw out a speculation about the legal matters at hand. Then you criticize the legal merits of the case based on this speculation, and manage to refer to a lawsuit that does not exist (C&D <> lawsuit).
1. I throw the speculation out there because that's why I think the legal reasoning they have for trying to shut down. Now, admittedly I'm no lawyer, but I've seen a lot of these arguments happen and I know that in general there isn't a rule that just says you can't play for free something that you should pay for. The law these people are supposedly breaking would have to do with the files that have the abilities of Magic cards and then the artwork to go with it. The artwork part would be the easiest to go after because it's basically using art without permission on a grand scale.
If someone with more knowledge of the law wants to educate me on the matter, feel free. But I think I'm right on this.
2. I said lawsuit when I should've said C&D. You knew what I was talking about.
Oracle allows us to go and download the card images and use them as we like. So number one one the artwork is not going to work. And it's not happening in the US, it's happening in Germany. The laws are slightly different over there.
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Casual crazy magic player, otaku maniac, unrully cosplayer, what did you expect me to be?
You attempt to sell them and they are direct copies of MTG cards.
You present them as official, original MTG cards.
From what I understand (and I know these laws have evolved) you can print them, use them, but once you attempt to profit (aka, sell) from them you have issues. Also, if your printing them to the extent that you are impeding the corporations ability to sell and profit from their intellectual rights you are also likely to see some legal action.
Also, Hasbro (and other large corporations) don't tend to pursue small infractions as the cost of legal prosecution will be higher than the loss from the piracy.
Also, Hasbro (and other large corporations) don't tend to pursue small infractions as the cost of legal prosecution will be higher than the loss from the piracy.
Actually what I hear is that Hasbro is known for doing exactly that. They throw their weight around every once and a while to make sure everybody knows what's up. Most of the time they don't even intend to win these lawsuits but rather crush the defendants with legal expenses.
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Check out my Sales 50% OFF everything for the next 48 hours.
Actually what I hear is that Hasbro is known for doing exactly that. They throw their weight around every once and a while to make sure everybody knows what's up. Most of the time they don't even intend to win these lawsuits but rather crush the defendants with legal expenses.
the sad reality of our legal system
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EDH Decks:
:symb:Seizan, Perverter of Truth:symb:
:symu:Kami of the Crescent Moon:symu:
:symr:Tahngarth, Talruum Hero:symr:
:symu::symg:Prime Speaker Zegana:symu::symg:
:symu::symr:Melek, Izzet Paragon:symu::symr:
They're not making as much as they COULD be, in theory. But they're not cracking down on the secondary market, if online cardstores are an indicator.
There is nothing illegal about selling paper Magic cards in secondary markets. Moreover, the secondary market directly drives demand in the primary market, as those cards have to come from WotC originally.
I think Cockatrice is a good thing for the game, as well. It lets people test decks. Try-before-you-buy.
It's great for players. It's much less certain that it is good for Hasbro and WotC. Clearly Hasbro does not think it is and it seems reasonable that they are in the best position to judge the long term implications, good and bad, of allowing free substitutes.
The law these people are supposedly breaking would have to do with the files that have the abilities of Magic cards and then the artwork to go with it.
About the only thing you can be relatively certain about is that the C&D addresses a perceived violation of intellectual property rights. But it's impossible for anyone not party to the details of the claim to know whether the issue is the art (which I personally doubt) or game play mechanics or some other IP addressed by a Magic Online-related patent or some combination.
I said lawsuit when I should've said C&D. You knew what I was talking about.
No, I don't know what you are talking about when you say lawsuit, because a lot of people have claimed there is a lawsuit and a lot of people have commented on the legal aspects using a U.S. legal framework, neither of which are applicable.
You attempt to sell them and they are direct copies of MTG cards.
You present them as official, original MTG cards.
You are wrong, at least under U.S. law. Yes, if you were to sell them, you'd most certainly be violating Hasbro's copyright. But even if you don't sell them and they are not direct copies, you may be violating the copyright. This depends, in part, on the "amount and substantiality of the portion" copied. For example, if you make a proxy that includes the entire artwork or the entire rules text, it is possible that this would be deemed substantial enough to violate the copyright. Also of importance is what the effect is on the potential market or value of the copyrighted work, regardless of how much you copy.
3kronor, could you stop using multiple posting instead of editing your replies please? And if you would have read the latest replies, you would have noticed that you bumped this thread for nothing. They already received the replies needed to be written.
And do we really need to feed more this event and transform it into a monster that's going to disgust everyone coming near it? It would be wiser to let this thread die. At least until Brukie gives us some feedback on the C&D.
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Casual crazy magic player, otaku maniac, unrully cosplayer, what did you expect me to be?
3kronor, could you stop using multiple posting instead of editing your replies please? And if you would have read the latest replies, you would have noticed that you bumped this thread for nothing. They already received the replies needed to be written.
I have no idea what this is in reference to. Each one of my postings is in response to a new posting by another user, where I specifically cite the argument that I am responding to. I do not "bump" threads.
The last post before you bumped this thread for nothing was the 5, early in the morning, which is last friday's during the night. No one had made a new reply cause there was no need to. Everything was already said.
And instead of quoting 3 persons by making 1 reply, you go and make 3 in which you quote each person seperatelly on things they said without considereation to the fact that they were already told what you just said. What you are doing is called multi-posting. You are actually infringing a rule of this forum
From the rules of this forum.
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A spam post is any post that does not contribute an original thought, advance the discussion, or add on-topic content to a thread.
Examples of spam posts include, but are not limited to:
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discussing a topic that is not relevant to the thread it's posted in
posting excessively short messages such as "thanks", "k", "QFT", "Oh god no", just a single smily, etc.
just posting a single meme image
annoying/unreadable text aggressive multiposting (posting several posts in a row within a short period of time)
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Sometimes your off-topic joke may be considered spam. It might be funny, but in and of itself it might also be spammy or even disruptive. We welcome jokes, but they are best accompanied by actual relevant content as well.
So we can actually say you can be reported for spamming messages in short period of time. I'm not actually going bother with reporting, but please, there is a edit button made for adding more details and there's a multi-quote button to actually quote more than one person or thread of the same topic in your reply.
I don't know if you can actually be accused of bumping, I will let that decision to the mod team, if they ever decide to check your posting behavior. Now I will appreciate it if this thread could get some days or weeks (better be some months) without any new reply, unless it's about some development on Brukie's side about the C&D (as I already stated higher).
Adding something that was already said becomes irrelevant because there is no need to say it again. No need to point out if it was said and done, I'm sure those that received the replies already saw those. On this, I will let the place to silence in this thread, thread about Cockatrice receiving a C&D, not about whether Cockatrice is legal or not or about Cockatrice being sued (which is not the case right now).
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Casual crazy magic player, otaku maniac, unrully cosplayer, what did you expect me to be?
I don't know if you can actually be accused of bumping, I will let that decision to the mod team, if they ever decide to check your posting behavior. Now I will appreciate it if this thread could get some days or weeks (better be some months) without any new reply, unless it's about some development on Brukie's side about the C&D (as I already stated higher).
Actually, if you think I am violating forum rules, I would rather just have you report me and have the mods provide guidance, instead of you trying to play moderator.
For the record, I had not checked this thread since March 27. I saw three unrelated postings from three unrelated users that I wanted to respond to, which I did. No rational observer would consider three short, distinct, and factual responses as "aggressive multiposting."
If you disagree with me, post a well-formulated counterargument, but don't try to manipulate the discussion. You get to participate like everyone else, but you don't get to decide whose opinions merit a posting and whose do not.
Also, note that "discussing a topic that is not relevant to the thread it's posted in" is also a forum rule violation, which is exactly what you are doing.
It's a pretty standard business practice these days of large corporations and political interests to enlist the aid of public relations firms specializing in influencing popular opinion online. The sudden appearance of a newly registered user extolling the virtues of that corporation and attempting to belittle all dissent is a glaring red flag.
On the bright side, it is just a card game. At least no one in this thread is being paid by ExxonMobile.
Hasbro's lawyers have stated that they regard the case as over assuming I stick to the declaration of cease and desist that I had signed before. According to their latest letter, there will be no further consequences. However, when I asked whether I could publicise their letters, there was no reply, and I assume there won't be any. Long story short, the main point of the declaration is: I may not copy, distribute or use for advertisement any copyrighted visual representation related to MTG. As you know, I've never done any of that myself (except for some screenshots in the downloads section), but as their exemplary screenshots show parts of the Cockatrice UI with MTG card pictures in it for the most part, what they mean is probably that I should not distribute this software any more. The immediate consequences are as follows:
I'm looking for someone else to take over this project and modify it to be a general purpose card playing program. Cockatrice was never meant to infringe any copyrights, and I'm certain it can be made that way. The code contains very few MTG-specific bits, and throwing away the whole code because of those bits is not the way to go. I will be happy to assist with development of a non-infringing software based of Cockatrice once a new project leader is found.
I had to pay attorney fees in the amount of € 911.80 (about $1200). As many of you have expressed a wish to help me in this regard, I've added the donate button again. Any donations are greatly appreciated.
2013/04/07
Max-Wilhelm Bruker <brukie@gmx.net>
I request that this thread is closed since the C&D business is closed.
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Casual crazy magic player, otaku maniac, unrully cosplayer, what did you expect me to be?
It's a pretty standard business practice these days of large corporations and political interests to enlist the aid of public relations firms specializing in influencing popular opinion online. The sudden appearance of a newly registered user extolling the virtues of that corporation and attempting to belittle all dissent is a glaring red flag.
Indeed. Not only that, but cooking up conspiracy theories instead of debating the merits of an argument is a pretty standard practice on internet forums. We live in extraordinary times.
Indeed. Not only that, but cooking up conspiracy theories instead of debating the merits of an argument is a pretty standard practice on internet forums. We live in extraordinary times.
I wasn't talking about you! Why would you think that? You're very well-expressed, highly informed, and leave no criticism however trivial unanswered. Those are ideal traits in a model poster. Welcome to MTGSalvation.
I wouldn't call it gone, I would rather call it...
Evolving.
Brukie is going to make the code open source and help on the dev of the upgraded program. It won't be Cockatrice by name only. So, who wants to pick up the idea?
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Casual crazy magic player, otaku maniac, unrully cosplayer, what did you expect me to be?
There will be a successor to Cockatrice that will probably have the ability to play Yu-Gi-Oh, Pokemon, and Go Fish. Anyone else think it'll be named Basilisk, or will it be named something entirely different to attempt to distance it from Cockatrice?
You're very well-expressed, highly informed, and leave no criticism however trivial unanswered. Those are ideal traits in a model poster. Welcome to MTGSalvation.
It will be interesting to see if other Hasbro entities outside Germany get involved, as Cockatrice (or its successor) move to other countries. Despite some pretty clear legal strategies available under, for example, U.S. IP law, it'd be interesting to see how a legal challenge would play out. It's too bad these cases tend to be decided on access to financial resources, rather than the legal merits of the case.
It's too bad these cases tend to be decided on access to financial resources, rather than the legal merits of the case.
Always a good reason to contribute on the cockatrice.de site. Opensource is just like public radio, desperate for some financial love from its users.
Is anyone considering to do development work on a re-made Cockatrice? Would that necessitate doing such work from a country outside the strike zone of Hasbro?
Just because the developer isn't working on the software anymore that doesn't mean that the program can't be used anymore. There is a perfectly good server running on woogerworks.com that's been up and running for a while now. And if that goes down, anyone else can run the server software on their own server with ease.
Also, 3kronor is so transparently on Wizards payroll (or payroll of marketing/public perception firm hired by Wizards) that's it just hilarious. Kudos to brianpk80 for pointing that out. In the future, guys, might want to make it a little less obvious - find an old account from years ago that someone is willing to give up, maybe? Argue less like a lawyer and more like a real forum poster? I mean, geez - at least take the time to put up some generic avatar to make it look less like you registered the account a day ago.
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1. I throw the speculation out there because that's why I think the legal reasoning they have for trying to shut down. Now, admittedly I'm no lawyer, but I've seen a lot of these arguments happen and I know that in general there isn't a rule that just says you can't play for free something that you should pay for. The law these people are supposedly breaking would have to do with the files that have the abilities of Magic cards and then the artwork to go with it. The artwork part would be the easiest to go after because it's basically using art without permission on a grand scale.
If someone with more knowledge of the law wants to educate me on the matter, feel free. But I think I'm right on this.
2. I said lawsuit when I should've said C&D. You knew what I was talking about.
You attempt to sell them and they are direct copies of MTG cards.
You present them as official, original MTG cards.
From what I understand (and I know these laws have evolved) you can print them, use them, but once you attempt to profit (aka, sell) from them you have issues. Also, if your printing them to the extent that you are impeding the corporations ability to sell and profit from their intellectual rights you are also likely to see some legal action.
Also, Hasbro (and other large corporations) don't tend to pursue small infractions as the cost of legal prosecution will be higher than the loss from the piracy.
Actually what I hear is that Hasbro is known for doing exactly that. They throw their weight around every once and a while to make sure everybody knows what's up. Most of the time they don't even intend to win these lawsuits but rather crush the defendants with legal expenses.
the sad reality of our legal system
:symb:Seizan, Perverter of Truth:symb:
:symu:Kami of the Crescent Moon:symu:
:symr:Tahngarth, Talruum Hero:symr:
:symu::symg:Prime Speaker Zegana:symu::symg:
:symu::symr:Melek, Izzet Paragon:symu::symr:
There is nothing illegal about selling paper Magic cards in secondary markets. Moreover, the secondary market directly drives demand in the primary market, as those cards have to come from WotC originally.
It's great for players. It's much less certain that it is good for Hasbro and WotC. Clearly Hasbro does not think it is and it seems reasonable that they are in the best position to judge the long term implications, good and bad, of allowing free substitutes.
About the only thing you can be relatively certain about is that the C&D addresses a perceived violation of intellectual property rights. But it's impossible for anyone not party to the details of the claim to know whether the issue is the art (which I personally doubt) or game play mechanics or some other IP addressed by a Magic Online-related patent or some combination.
No, I don't know what you are talking about when you say lawsuit, because a lot of people have claimed there is a lawsuit and a lot of people have commented on the legal aspects using a U.S. legal framework, neither of which are applicable.
You are wrong, at least under U.S. law. Yes, if you were to sell them, you'd most certainly be violating Hasbro's copyright. But even if you don't sell them and they are not direct copies, you may be violating the copyright. This depends, in part, on the "amount and substantiality of the portion" copied. For example, if you make a proxy that includes the entire artwork or the entire rules text, it is possible that this would be deemed substantial enough to violate the copyright. Also of importance is what the effect is on the potential market or value of the copyrighted work, regardless of how much you copy.
For more, refer to:
U.S. Copyright Office Fact Sheet on Fair Use of Copyrighted Works
Again, this is the U.S. law. The Cockatrice case is subject to German law.
And do we really need to feed more this event and transform it into a monster that's going to disgust everyone coming near it? It would be wiser to let this thread die. At least until Brukie gives us some feedback on the C&D.
And instead of quoting 3 persons by making 1 reply, you go and make 3 in which you quote each person seperatelly on things they said without considereation to the fact that they were already told what you just said. What you are doing is called multi-posting. You are actually infringing a rule of this forum
So we can actually say you can be reported for spamming messages in short period of time. I'm not actually going bother with reporting, but please, there is a edit button made for adding more details and there's a multi-quote button to actually quote more than one person or thread of the same topic in your reply.
I don't know if you can actually be accused of bumping, I will let that decision to the mod team, if they ever decide to check your posting behavior. Now I will appreciate it if this thread could get some days or weeks (better be some months) without any new reply, unless it's about some development on Brukie's side about the C&D (as I already stated higher).
Adding something that was already said becomes irrelevant because there is no need to say it again. No need to point out if it was said and done, I'm sure those that received the replies already saw those. On this, I will let the place to silence in this thread, thread about Cockatrice receiving a C&D, not about whether Cockatrice is legal or not or about Cockatrice being sued (which is not the case right now).
For the record, I had not checked this thread since March 27. I saw three unrelated postings from three unrelated users that I wanted to respond to, which I did. No rational observer would consider three short, distinct, and factual responses as "aggressive multiposting."
If you disagree with me, post a well-formulated counterargument, but don't try to manipulate the discussion. You get to participate like everyone else, but you don't get to decide whose opinions merit a posting and whose do not.
Also, note that "discussing a topic that is not relevant to the thread it's posted in" is also a forum rule violation, which is exactly what you are doing.
Grand Arbiter
Omnath
Skittles
On the bright side, it is just a card game. At least no one in this thread is being paid by ExxonMobile.
I request that this thread is closed since the C&D business is closed.
Thanks Hero's of the Plane
Modern
-------------
xRxAffinityxRx
I wasn't talking about you! Why would you think that? You're very well-expressed, highly informed, and leave no criticism however trivial unanswered. Those are ideal traits in a model poster. Welcome to MTGSalvation.
I wouldn't call it gone, I would rather call it...
Evolving.
Brukie is going to make the code open source and help on the dev of the upgraded program. It won't be Cockatrice by name only. So, who wants to pick up the idea?
Twitch channel
There will be a successor to Cockatrice that will probably have the ability to play Yu-Gi-Oh, Pokemon, and Go Fish. Anyone else think it'll be named Basilisk, or will it be named something entirely different to attempt to distance it from Cockatrice?
See you next Tuesday!
It will be interesting to see if other Hasbro entities outside Germany get involved, as Cockatrice (or its successor) move to other countries. Despite some pretty clear legal strategies available under, for example, U.S. IP law, it'd be interesting to see how a legal challenge would play out. It's too bad these cases tend to be decided on access to financial resources, rather than the legal merits of the case.
Always a good reason to contribute on the cockatrice.de site. Opensource is just like public radio, desperate for some financial love from its users.
Is anyone considering to do development work on a re-made Cockatrice? Would that necessitate doing such work from a country outside the strike zone of Hasbro?