Well excuse me for not keeping that game in touch! I was just pointing out that the fact that someone said that Cockatrice was exclusive for Magic was wrong, that's all!
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Casual crazy magic player, otaku maniac, unrully cosplayer, what did you expect me to be?
So if every maker of a tool that can potentially facilitate copyright infringement were to be sued, then why haven't makers of Playstation / Nintendo / Arcade emulators been sued?
They were, right around the time that Nintendo: a) realized they existed because b) they planned on releasing something similar to the market for a fee.
The emulation finally came to a compromise with Nintendo that allowed them to continue without intermittent purges of whoever was popular at the moment by way of them agreeing to pull any content that Nintendo asked without hesitation or objection in exchange for them being allowed to continue with everything else. The iconic IP that Nintendo wants to release on their own via the arcase/continue to support (Kirby, LoZ, Mario) isn't easily available whereas the out of print, never going to be rereleased and insanely hard to track down titles like Clayfighter, Famicon fan subs, etc. (a lot of which was licensed to Sony for rerelease, amusingly enough) etc. is left alone.
That's entirely different from what's happening here, since WotC/Hasboro has every intention of continuing to use the data.
However, they do offer you the ability to collect an entire set and trade it in for the real cards, but in the years I have been playing MTGO off and on, I have done that exactly zero times. I'm a Magic player... I am not trying to put in all that effort, say what you will, to go and search out to make a set... then I wouldn't have my virtual cards anymore to playtest... but then you could sell them on ebay and buy more virtual cards yay! Just, no. stop it! Bad penguin! ..................... >,>
I'm rambling.
Point is.... Magic Online is NOT being hurt by Cockatrice. .
It's like an auditor at a big corporation. He or She looks at the bottom line, makes cuts to areas they feel are being "overspent"... never seeing the people who feel the real effect of their cuts by being laid off, no longer having an income or health insurance. That's real. This is the same.
Get the game back into the hands of gamers. It doesn't mean you can't make money. Just make money while taking care of the people who give it to you.
MODO's business model doesn't need to be hurt by Cockatrice to make taking it down a necessity. It's not about an auditor, it's about a legal team who knows that if they don't protect the IP it'll become public domain.
As far as the redemption goes: most redemption is done by either the folks running to bots to "cash out" on their business model or by folks who buy sets from the online players and then redeem them. It's a way of ensuring that the digital objects retain the real-world value that the Magic economy thrives on. It's viability and the fact that value can leave the online economy is required for the system to work at all.
Well excuse me for not keeping that game in touch! I was just pointing out that the fact that someone said that Cockatrice was exclusive for Magic was wrong, that's all!
If you don't know something, don't talk about it like you hold the truth. That's all.
And Cockatrice should be exclusively for Magic, just like the Yugioh dueling programs should be exclusively for Yugioh. Mixing up both games would only give awful results to those softwares.
If you don't know something, don't talk about it like you hold the truth. That's all.
And Cockatrice should be exclusively for Magic, just like the Yugioh dueling programs should be exclusively for Yugioh. Mixing up both games would only give awful results to those softwares.
That makes there even more reason to shut it down, which is good.
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"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not." - John Lennon
it's about a legal team who knows that if they don't protect the IP it'll become public domain.
Well, i nitpick people who claim that this doesn't possibly infringe, so I should probably point out that this isn't true either. Copyright and patents (not sure which is relevant here, i'm guessing the former) don't lapse for non-enforcement. It's only in trade mark law (or common law 'passing off') that non-enforcement of rights can be relevant and I'm fairly certain this isn't a trade mark issue given that trade mark law requires active use of a relevant mark in the context of supply of a product/service, which Cocatrice wasn't doing as far as I'm aware.
To those who say there is no 'free' alternative to M:TGO: Isn't DotP free or essentially free?
(I could be wrong... but even if DotP isn't free, the cost for it is nominal - like three dollars.)
In any case, I don't think there exists a significant demographic worth catering to, that is both:
A) Not happy about paying the fee for DotP, when they can get it for free on Cockatrice.
B) Going to buy lots of cards IRL, when they can get it for free on Cockatrice.
I think this is a very logical move for WotC, especially with the rumors of them trying to sync up paper and online.
If you are a casual player, you have DotP. If you are a Spike, you have M:TGO.
If you are somewhere in between, and relying on Cockatrice?
There's a good chance you'll lean toward one way or the other... which I think is exactly the plan.
A good chance? Just because you try to succeed at Magic doesn't mean you can afford mtgo. I played on Cockatrice because I couldn't afford mtgo, that's all. The downside is in the quality of the players. All I ever did was test against my testing group.
And it's not also Yugi-Oh! that can be played on Cockatrice. Poker, Duel Masters, Kaijudo, Pokemon and many other trading card games can be played on it! Many has rules in common with MTG.
This is all very true, except for one small point: None of the games you list can be played on Cockatrice.
They were, right around the time that Nintendo: a) realized they existed because b) they planned on releasing something similar to the market for a fee.
The emulation finally came to a compromise with Nintendo that allowed them to continue without intermittent purges of whoever was popular at the moment by way of them agreeing to pull any content that Nintendo asked without hesitation or objection in exchange for them being allowed to continue with everything else. The iconic IP that Nintendo wants to release on their own via the arcase/continue to support (Kirby, LoZ, Mario) isn't easily available whereas the out of print, never going to be rereleased and insanely hard to track down titles like Clayfighter, Famicon fan subs, etc. (a lot of which was licensed to Sony for rerelease, amusingly enough) etc. is left alone.
Eh... small nitpick. Something like Pokemon (which is a Nintendo property), a VERY popular game series, is easy to get on DS or GBA Emulators. I remember going back and re-playing all those old games, even the newer ones on emulators. Do a google search for pokemon black 2 rom and you can find a website that has the 6 month old game. So certainly they aren't shutting down popular Nintendo owned games that are made into Roms.
It's my personal opinion that the reason Nintendo hasn't done anything is because it's just not feasible... has nothing to do with any agreement that they've come to.
And sort of an offtopic thing, but half the reason that PC gaming had been horrible for years and years is because of the issue of hacking the game and basically selling it for free. It's something that consoles didn't have an issue with. Now, I don't pretend to be an expert in this or anything... but I only bring it up to kind of drive the point home that these companies know that people out there are stealing their games and basically can't reasonably do anything about it.
In the case of Cockatrice, it's for the most part a one man show so it was easy to get shut down. I imagine another program will pop up in a year or so and become popular... or another server will be made and it will be back. And then the game of whack a mole will continue.
.. I imagine another program will pop up in a year or so and become popular... or another server will be made and it will be back. And then the game of whack a mole will continue.
Alternative programs (with varying degrees of quality) already exist, and I can think of at least two off the top of my head that are still currently viable. At least one of those is an actual 'tabletop' emulator (no MTG-specific code to the program, that's all supported by plugins).
I'm still hopeful that this is a preamble to a Hasbro-released product with similar (or better!) features. I'd actually prefer to pay for a program that offered playtesting with MTGO rules enforcement built in. I've actually purchased DotP for multiple friends to get them into playing magic, but the step between DotP (almost no deckbuilding/customization options, very basic rules, minimal card diversity) and actual MtG is rather large still.
Thank you for being honest and for proving my point about the economics of Cockatrice.
And what is your economics point. I use cockatrice to just test my deck and try to build new owns(not need to print Proxy, lost time on making proxier, make more comforable than createing proxies). I have own Paper collection about 1500+ cards. I already spend more than 2000 € on Magic in my life(jusst 3 years playing). I cannot afford MTGO(not enouht time for both, not enogh money on both, I have another hobbies that are cheaper). I try no optimalize my economic point by collecting and playing PAPER. Cockatrice was good service. Magic has many conturent hobbies(not only TCG game, e.x. Warhammer 40000, Chess, BANG!, board game), so if Cockatrice will not be deal, I think to stop buying product for long time(or reduce my spending will on minimum 10 € pre year). I will still play only causul Paper. I will focus on more play Check or BANG! or another activities that are cheaper.
That player maybe never tried to play Magic without Cockatrice. The economic point is not affording:
- too much money investment to just Paper, not figure, not metal, ....
- too much time investment
- he does not spend any money to Magic, with or without Cockatrice
- just Cockatrice increase his atitue to play Magic
This is all very true, except for one small point: None of the games you list can be played on Cockatrice.
Technically, you can play a game of poker on Cockatrice. When you copy and paste a list of cards it doesn't recognize, it'll create an entry for it so "Ace of Spades" will be a card you can top deck in a middle of a MTG game.
EDIT: LOL I just figured out how to do a game of Blackjack as well.
This is all very true, except for one small point: None of the games you list can be played on Cockatrice.
You can load your own card set for Cockatrice. Not that hard, some persons did that and described their set on the Cockatrice forum and they even shared their custom card games with other persons. So yes, they can be played. Cockatrice is not MTG exclusive!
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Casual crazy magic player, otaku maniac, unrully cosplayer, what did you expect me to be?
When there is a substitute good, even if imperfect, it will lower the demand of the competing good if the price is low enough. Zero is a pretty low price.
You are grasping at straws. Have you read the Cockatrice AMA on Reddit? The one in which Bruker explains that:
- Cockatrice started as a feasibility project to see if he could improve on Magic Workstation
- The name came from the Cockatrice card
- The servers are sponsored by a German MTG forum
- Cockatrice is and will remain a way to play Magic for free
@3kronor
Your point about Cockatrice being Magic exclusive got shot down by 4 or 5 persons over and over. It proves my point more than yours.
And just so you know, a Cockatrice is a mythical being that MTG just took and reworked into a card, you can't put a copyright on a mythical being of the antiquities era since it's already of the public domain.
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Casual crazy magic player, otaku maniac, unrully cosplayer, what did you expect me to be?
When there is a substitute good, even if imperfect, it will lower the demand of the competing good if the price is low enough. Zero is a pretty low price.
While trying so hard to argue against me, you end up proving my point.
It doesn't change the fact that if someone can't afford MTGO while Cockatrice is available, they still won't be able to afford it after Cockatrice is unavailable. For the person that doesn't want to pay for online magic, shutting down Cockatrice will not automagically sell more MTGO product.
Also, trying to shut down an open source project like Cockatrice is really about as futile as trying to get piss out of a pool. Does it hurt MTGO sales? Maybe, not proven. Does it help paper card sales? Probably, still not proven. Does it somehow help Hasbro to waste money on lawyers shutting down server after server? Hell no.
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"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
This might be just me, but having Cockatrice and similar programs available was what got me to sign up for MTGO in the first place. Now that Hasbro is going after them, I'm getting a strong urge to close my account just as an admittedly weak protest that will, at least, help me sleep at night.
And you will have remorses after doing that because you blew some money on MTGO and you can't get anything back for closing the account.
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Casual crazy magic player, otaku maniac, unrully cosplayer, what did you expect me to be?
And you will have remorses after doing that because you blew some money on MTGO and you can't get anything back for closing the account.
Except you can always sell the collection before stopping logging in. I know I sold my collection recently and got a decent amount after I decided that I was going to give mtgo a break for a while.
Something like MTGO will always appeal to some and not to others, thats simply the nature of such things. At the end of the day, those that are going to quit mtgo in protest, or quit magic in general in protest over such things will be minimal, and magic will continue rolling right along and growing as it goes as it always has. I know some people are upset, but at the end of the day, there does always seem to be more options for those wanting to go the online testing route.
Yes they can. You can add any card and any art you want to Cockatrice.
Even if it is theoretically possible, let's say you are yearning for a game of poker. You log onto Cockatrice. You will not be able to play it on Cockatrice, because nobody is doing it. Cockatrice is used to play Magic the Gathering, online, for free. That was what it was developed for and that is what it is being used for. To suggest anything else is grasping at straws.
Your point about Cockatrice being Magic exclusive got shot down by 4 or 5 persons over and over.
You can count as much as you want, it doesn't change the fact that Cockatrice was designed to play Magic the Gathring and that is pretty much exclusively what it has and is being used for.
And just so you know, a Cockatrice is a mythical being that MTG just took and reworked into a card, you can't put a copyright on a mythical being of the antiquities era since it's already of the public domain.
I've never made that claim. All I've said is that Bruker has stated it was named after the Cockatrice card and, more importantly, that it was developed to become a better Magic online program than MWS. Your arguments will be more effective if you debate what I actually said, vs. what you imagine what I said.
You do know that this thread doesn't need your empty arguments. Yes, Bruker has said some things. But it doesn't change the fact that you can do almost anything you want with Cockatrice. Get a server and make it support any kind of game. I'm sure the Cockatrice source code will be eventually released and will be unstoppable, just like the emulators.
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Casual crazy magic player, otaku maniac, unrully cosplayer, what did you expect me to be?
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They were, right around the time that Nintendo: a) realized they existed because b) they planned on releasing something similar to the market for a fee.
The emulation finally came to a compromise with Nintendo that allowed them to continue without intermittent purges of whoever was popular at the moment by way of them agreeing to pull any content that Nintendo asked without hesitation or objection in exchange for them being allowed to continue with everything else. The iconic IP that Nintendo wants to release on their own via the arcase/continue to support (Kirby, LoZ, Mario) isn't easily available whereas the out of print, never going to be rereleased and insanely hard to track down titles like Clayfighter, Famicon fan subs, etc. (a lot of which was licensed to Sony for rerelease, amusingly enough) etc. is left alone.
That's entirely different from what's happening here, since WotC/Hasboro has every intention of continuing to use the data.
MODO's business model doesn't need to be hurt by Cockatrice to make taking it down a necessity. It's not about an auditor, it's about a legal team who knows that if they don't protect the IP it'll become public domain.
As far as the redemption goes: most redemption is done by either the folks running to bots to "cash out" on their business model or by folks who buy sets from the online players and then redeem them. It's a way of ensuring that the digital objects retain the real-world value that the Magic economy thrives on. It's viability and the fact that value can leave the online economy is required for the system to work at all.
If you don't know something, don't talk about it like you hold the truth. That's all.
And Cockatrice should be exclusively for Magic, just like the Yugioh dueling programs should be exclusively for Yugioh. Mixing up both games would only give awful results to those softwares.
Have all of them.
Join us on Cardgame Coalition!
That makes there even more reason to shut it down, which is good.
Well, i nitpick people who claim that this doesn't possibly infringe, so I should probably point out that this isn't true either. Copyright and patents (not sure which is relevant here, i'm guessing the former) don't lapse for non-enforcement. It's only in trade mark law (or common law 'passing off') that non-enforcement of rights can be relevant and I'm fairly certain this isn't a trade mark issue given that trade mark law requires active use of a relevant mark in the context of supply of a product/service, which Cocatrice wasn't doing as far as I'm aware.
A good chance? Just because you try to succeed at Magic doesn't mean you can afford mtgo. I played on Cockatrice because I couldn't afford mtgo, that's all. The downside is in the quality of the players. All I ever did was test against my testing group.
Eh... small nitpick. Something like Pokemon (which is a Nintendo property), a VERY popular game series, is easy to get on DS or GBA Emulators. I remember going back and re-playing all those old games, even the newer ones on emulators. Do a google search for pokemon black 2 rom and you can find a website that has the 6 month old game. So certainly they aren't shutting down popular Nintendo owned games that are made into Roms.
It's my personal opinion that the reason Nintendo hasn't done anything is because it's just not feasible... has nothing to do with any agreement that they've come to.
And sort of an offtopic thing, but half the reason that PC gaming had been horrible for years and years is because of the issue of hacking the game and basically selling it for free. It's something that consoles didn't have an issue with. Now, I don't pretend to be an expert in this or anything... but I only bring it up to kind of drive the point home that these companies know that people out there are stealing their games and basically can't reasonably do anything about it.
In the case of Cockatrice, it's for the most part a one man show so it was easy to get shut down. I imagine another program will pop up in a year or so and become popular... or another server will be made and it will be back. And then the game of whack a mole will continue.
Alternative programs (with varying degrees of quality) already exist, and I can think of at least two off the top of my head that are still currently viable. At least one of those is an actual 'tabletop' emulator (no MTG-specific code to the program, that's all supported by plugins).
I'm still hopeful that this is a preamble to a Hasbro-released product with similar (or better!) features. I'd actually prefer to pay for a program that offered playtesting with MTGO rules enforcement built in. I've actually purchased DotP for multiple friends to get them into playing magic, but the step between DotP (almost no deckbuilding/customization options, very basic rules, minimal card diversity) and actual MtG is rather large still.
And what is your economics point. I use cockatrice to just test my deck and try to build new owns(not need to print Proxy, lost time on making proxier, make more comforable than createing proxies). I have own Paper collection about 1500+ cards. I already spend more than 2000 € on Magic in my life(jusst 3 years playing). I cannot afford MTGO(not enouht time for both, not enogh money on both, I have another hobbies that are cheaper). I try no optimalize my economic point by collecting and playing PAPER. Cockatrice was good service. Magic has many conturent hobbies(not only TCG game, e.x. Warhammer 40000, Chess, BANG!, board game), so if Cockatrice will not be deal, I think to stop buying product for long time(or reduce my spending will on minimum 10 € pre year). I will still play only causul Paper. I will focus on more play Check or BANG! or another activities that are cheaper.
That player maybe never tried to play Magic without Cockatrice. The economic point is not affording:
- too much money investment to just Paper, not figure, not metal, ....
- too much time investment
- he does not spend any money to Magic, with or without Cockatrice
- just Cockatrice increase his atitue to play Magic
Technically, you can play a game of poker on Cockatrice. When you copy and paste a list of cards it doesn't recognize, it'll create an entry for it so "Ace of Spades" will be a card you can top deck in a middle of a MTG game.
EDIT: LOL I just figured out how to do a game of Blackjack as well.
You can load your own card set for Cockatrice. Not that hard, some persons did that and described their set on the Cockatrice forum and they even shared their custom card games with other persons. So yes, they can be played. Cockatrice is not MTG exclusive!
While trying so hard to argue against me, you end up proving my point.
- Cockatrice started as a feasibility project to see if he could improve on Magic Workstation
- The name came from the Cockatrice card
- The servers are sponsored by a German MTG forum
- Cockatrice is and will remain a way to play Magic for free
cards.xml (I forget the exact markup, but that doesn't matter):
<cards>
<card>
<name>Ace of Spades</name>
<type>Spade</type>
<set>MyPokerSet</set>
</card>
</cards>
Now go to cockatrice/pics/mypokerset and add an image of an Ace of Spades called "Ace of Spades.full" You can now play with an Ace of Spades.
Though I'll put it in a small font.
Please stop hijacking my reply box.
Your point about Cockatrice being Magic exclusive got shot down by 4 or 5 persons over and over. It proves my point more than yours.
And just so you know, a Cockatrice is a mythical being that MTG just took and reworked into a card, you can't put a copyright on a mythical being of the antiquities era since it's already of the public domain.
It doesn't change the fact that if someone can't afford MTGO while Cockatrice is available, they still won't be able to afford it after Cockatrice is unavailable. For the person that doesn't want to pay for online magic, shutting down Cockatrice will not automagically sell more MTGO product.
Also, trying to shut down an open source project like Cockatrice is really about as futile as trying to get piss out of a pool. Does it hurt MTGO sales? Maybe, not proven. Does it help paper card sales? Probably, still not proven. Does it somehow help Hasbro to waste money on lawyers shutting down server after server? Hell no.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
And you will have remorses after doing that because you blew some money on MTGO and you can't get anything back for closing the account.
and there goes the whole digital card collection is better argument.
Except you can always sell the collection before stopping logging in. I know I sold my collection recently and got a decent amount after I decided that I was going to give mtgo a break for a while.
Something like MTGO will always appeal to some and not to others, thats simply the nature of such things. At the end of the day, those that are going to quit mtgo in protest, or quit magic in general in protest over such things will be minimal, and magic will continue rolling right along and growing as it goes as it always has. I know some people are upset, but at the end of the day, there does always seem to be more options for those wanting to go the online testing route.
I've never made that claim. All I've said is that Bruker has stated it was named after the Cockatrice card and, more importantly, that it was developed to become a better Magic online program than MWS. Your arguments will be more effective if you debate what I actually said, vs. what you imagine what I said.