I think people need to look at this from WotC's point of view. Granted, we don't know all the details, but I think more of us need to stand by WotC in this.
I agree with whoever said WotC probably told him to take it down because they might not like parents (who might not be as accepting as most of teh internetz) seeing two main characters acting like that. If parents stop buying their kids MtG, WotC's sales drop. Business-wise, asking Steve to take the pic down made sense.
Another issue is the whole give and inch, lose a mile metaphor. If WotC had allowed Steve to just produce un-contracted paintings of their characters, then who's to stop some other artist/writer in WotC's employ from using Magic's characters and scenarios for their own profit? I understand this one was purely free, but if they had let Steve get away with it, the door would have been that much wider for future, less honorable people to use.
In short, WotC could have had business issues with the painting, and in no way should any of us assume WotC is homophobic, or a tyrant who chains up its artists. Sometimes we have to admit that even our idols can do "wrong" things, and we can't blindly follow them and shoot down WotC for reigning Argyle in.
What he did was clever but out of line. This could be very bad for him and his future work for WOTC.
what was OVER THE LINE is what wizards did. They even took down his comments about the issuie. They are censoring him and controlling the story.
You have to be on his side. How could you not!
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Arrest this man he talks in math
The Tea Party is the working class fighting against the man fighting for the working class.
It's called EDH kids, there is no such thing as commander.
I feel that this is Hasbro overreaching, not WOTC. Remember that WOTC is not an independent company. Parent companies love to poke their noses into culturally offensive things like homosexuality. I still feel it is unfair that Hasbro is making him take every single image off his blog, though.
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A mere ten days after the Mending, a young knight of Valeron and a young ranger of Eos made a discovery that would change Alara forever.
Because censoring makes sense sometimes. When you go to work, or represent your business, you have a certain demeanor and standard you're expected to keep up. I'm assuming that Wizards didn't tell him that he had to take it down, but rather told him that he would take it down if he wanted to do more work with them.
If you go out on the weekend and start hanging up signs around town that say "[businesses I work for] kills and eats babies", and were seen by your boss, would you expect to have a job come monday?
Freedom of speech in the US says that the government lets you say what you want in public spaces as long as it's not obscene or putting people in immediate danger. It doesn't say your job can't fire you because you're taking actions that are potentially harmful to the dignity of the brand.
I love Steve Argyle's work, and he's a nice guy, but as an art director nonpareil himself, I have to wonder why he didn't ask the people with whom he signed a contract if the illustration was okay or not. They probably would've said no, but at least then he wouldn't have to backpedal and delete things.
I think the art was okay. It's not his A-list work, but it's a good piece. The problem is even though Magic's art is freelance, they don't get to do whatever the muse encourages. I don't believe Argyle should stop getting calls for work from Wizards any more than Lockwood did when he posted all his Guildpact art early, even though Argyle acknowledged the risks and posted the thing anyway.
Like I said, Argyle's a great artist and a great person. Doesn't change the fact that he should have known better. One doesn't just freewheel under a contract if there's even the slightest chance of it being defamatory to the brand. Putting it up on Deviant Art and bragging is a hundred times worse than altering it on a Magic card, several of which are PG-13 yet no one raises a complaint.
I love Steve Argyle's work, and he's a nice guy, but as an art director nonpareil himself, I have to wonder why he didn't ask the people with whom he signed a contract if the illustration was okay or not. They probably would've said no, but at least then he wouldn't have to backpedal and delete things.
I think the art was okay. It's not his A-list work, but it's a good piece. The problem is even though Magic's art is freelance, they don't get to do whatever the muse encourages. I don't believe Argyle should stop getting calls for work from Wizards any more than Lockwood did when he posted all his Guildpact art early, even though Argyle acknowledged the risks and posted the thing anyway.
Like I said, Argyle's a great artist and a great person. Doesn't change the fact that he should have known better. One doesn't just freewheel under a contract if there's even the slightest chance of it being defamatory to the brand. Putting it up on Deviant Art and bragging is a hundred times worse than altering it on a Magic card, several of which are PG-13 yet no one raises a complaint.
Here is the thing. They took down more then just that pic. They took down ALL THE FAIR USE STUFF HE HAS ON THE NET. think about that. They ****ing layed the hammer down on him. How is that ok!
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Arrest this man he talks in math
The Tea Party is the working class fighting against the man fighting for the working class.
It's called EDH kids, there is no such thing as commander.
This is definite censorship and they're probably bullying him.. but with magic being part of his livelihood, we may never know the answers. I do know that a lot of anger and resentment can negatively hurt the artists.
I remember the backlash with wizards and Rebecca Guay. Since then, I haven't seen any recent work by her at all (and Auramancer doesn't count since it was a reprint). They joked around with Persecute Artist, but she has disappeared since then (The common sentiment, being, that her art doesn't fit with the flavor they want).
This is definite censorship and they're probably bullying him.. but with magic being part of his livelihood, we may never know the answers. I do know that a lot of anger and resentment can negatively hurt the artists.
I remember the backlash with wizards and Rebecca Guay. Since then, I haven't seen any recent work by her at all (and Auramancer doesn't count since it was a reprint). They joked around with Persecute Artist, but she has disappeared since then (The common sentiment, being, that her art doesn't fit with the flavor they want).
Giving away cards depicting Demons that ask you to sacrifice humans in the prerelease? Sure thing! Two girls that don't show any less clothes than regular magic artwork in a provocative situation? You ain't working anymore for WOTC, son!
The same parents that would frown upon two people acting lovingly towards one another would be ok with demons and human sacrifice? Suuuuuure.
I'm pretty sure if soccer moms have learned how to cope with demons and rituals then they won't care about what someone drew on teh internet.
Wotc were within their right to ask for the picture to be removed.
It may cause speculation reggarding future sets etc because he has done official Art.
This is very logical.
What is also logical is the fact that no one should be cencored for fan art.
But because of his Relation to WOTC as an official artist he probably has signed a contract even.
On the not logical side lets get political about two girls together?
Two girls one loyalty counter? I liek
Posting some remark about them being homophobic is an overreaction. There's no point in grabbing pitchforks until we actually have a good understanding of what actually happened.
I couldnt agree more. Moreover, if the art depicted Jace and Liliana, would there be similar heterophobic comments?
I suspect that if the artwork depicted Jace and Liliana, it may not have been removed.
This is something I want to touch up on. In WOTCs eyes, I do not think that gory/gruesome images are in the same group as images depicting an intimate nature.
If the art for Gwendlyn Di Corci was submitted today, I doubt it would get printed. Not that today's standards are more prude than in the mid 90's, but because WOTC has a better hold on who their targeted audience is.
Here is the thing. They took down more then just that pic. They took down ALL THE FAIR USE STUFF HE HAS ON THE NET. think about that. They ****ing layed the hammer down on him. How is that ok!
Your perception of Wizards verges on the draconian. I sincerely doubt that they personally took down all the 'fair use' (I'll return to this axiom in a moment), material he had online. In fact, I don't even think they told the websites to pull them off. Chances are that they asked Argyle himself to do so, and because martyrs don't pay their bills as often as professional artists, he obliged them.
This isn't Wizards trying to stamp out creativity. It certainly isn't laying the hammer down on fair use either, because that may not apply in Argyle's case, depending on the contract he signed when he agreed to paint for Magic. Fair use is not the broad blanket people so often presume. Argyle does above-board work for them, and he used their characters in a scenario that isn't within the realm of personal commissions like altered cards or doodled playmats. If Wizards doesn't like it, and Argyle was pretty sure they wouldn't like it but still did it, he takes it down or risks getting torched by one of the biggest names in fantasy hobbies. Not a hard decision.
The sexual nature of the illustration was probably the tipping point, I'll grant that, but the genders involved are irrelevant beyond hyping up the piece.
O wizards, how naive you are. Someone notify the ACLU, quick!
But seriously, ungodly amounts of blood is fine, but every straight male mtg players fantasy is not? Are Rat-boobs any better? C'mon. Personally, I think theyre making a bad decision. Mtg died a little when the got rid of the Foglios, and this is alot like that. It's not like kids will turn gay from playing magic.
This is about more then that one pic, if it was, then why take down everything else!
All his **** is down, his statement about it is down, all his comments. They are strongarming him. If you are not with him, and you are siding with wizards you are the 1%.
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Arrest this man he talks in math
The Tea Party is the working class fighting against the man fighting for the working class.
It's called EDH kids, there is no such thing as commander.
This is about more then that one pic, if it was, then why take down everything else!
All his **** is down, his statement about it is down, all his comments. They are strongarming him.
He was a bit buzzed when he put up that artwork, he said as much in the post included with it on Deviantart (by the way, the line drawing it came from had been on his DA account for a while before he posted the final version). Argyle may have taken it down on his own once he had time to think about it.
More likely though is that Wizards asked for it to be removed and he complied.
Describing it as Wizards "strongarming" him may be a bit severe seeing as we don't actually know what went on.
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If you are not with him, and you are siding with wizards you are the 1%.
I remember the backlash with wizards and Rebecca Guay. Since then, I haven't seen any recent work by her at all (and Auramancer doesn't count since it was a reprint). They joked around with Persecute Artist, but she has disappeared since then (The common sentiment, being, that her art doesn't fit with the flavor they want).
Your timeline is pretty wrong there; the backlash happened when her art didn't appear in the Mirrodin block, but she returned for Champions of Kamigawa and her work appeared in most sets through Eventide (admittedly, in smaller numbers than it previously had), which was years after Persecute Artist was printed.
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When you peer long enough through the depths, the depths peer also through you.
On the one hand, Steve Argyle represents MTG as he is an officially licensed artist.
On the other, this kind of work exists en-masse for just about every MTG character in existence(including non-humans).
Wizards knows sex sells, anyone who's flipped through a D&D book or even glanced at some MTG cards knows they know this. Personally I think this is just an overreaction on Wizards part, and they're really going to do more harm than good by putting the screws to their artists than by allowing the occasional "fan-service" image.
Yes I'm aware that to our knowledge, they haven't done this to any other artists, but as a realist, actions set precedence. If it happens once, it'll happen again.
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"The difference between MTG and science is that one has people dressed up in silly clothes, using words you can't understand and doing potentially quite dangerous stuff while the other has people dressed up in silly clothes, using words you can't understand and doing potentially quite dangerous stuff while playing cards."
My Decks: WAnglesW WUBRGThe BroodGRBUW WUGAllymillGUW
as decribed to me by misters bierek and dechamps, their contracts cant forbid them from depicting figures and characters for which they did the art since its their own artistic property, except in over pg13 scenes or other ways that wizards wouldnt like because in reality wizards actually owns the copyrights, trademarks, etc. i dont think steve argyle would necessarily have claim to these two figures anyway since when ive asked artists to alter other artists cards or to do art based on other artists (ive asked alot) theyve always turned me down quite quickly giving the excuse that its not theirs to mess with. the reason my avatar sneaks under the radar is because for one wizards doesnt care what i have two artists put on my playmat and him putting that stuff on his blog is as dumb as that art is awesome, but also because i had them each depict their own separate figure in a nonsexual pose, the two of which just happened to be touching. that was as good as they could do for me when i asked for something far more "adult themed". some of mike biereks art outside magic is fairly adult themed, but when asked to make me a naked non-stoneforge kor chick he said no. even a really tan tan chick with a stoneforge haircut was a no. all magic artists should know just not to do this sort of thing or there will be some sort of blowback, so i really dont think he needs freeing this is probly exactly what he expected
i wonder if wizards will take this same avatar away from me on their forums now?:)
I believe that Wizards was within their right to take it down. I know many elementary school children who play the game, and their parents would easily be concerned by art of this nature created by an official MTG artist.
In case the other link goes down, I found another version of it uploaded here.
Here you go:
http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/005/0/8/planeswalkers_for_equality_in_scandalicious_color__by_steveargyle-d4lftwb.jpg
Too bad that it's not larger, it would make a great playmat.
I agree with whoever said WotC probably told him to take it down because they might not like parents (who might not be as accepting as most of teh internetz) seeing two main characters acting like that. If parents stop buying their kids MtG, WotC's sales drop. Business-wise, asking Steve to take the pic down made sense.
Another issue is the whole give and inch, lose a mile metaphor. If WotC had allowed Steve to just produce un-contracted paintings of their characters, then who's to stop some other artist/writer in WotC's employ from using Magic's characters and scenarios for their own profit? I understand this one was purely free, but if they had let Steve get away with it, the door would have been that much wider for future, less honorable people to use.
In short, WotC could have had business issues with the painting, and in no way should any of us assume WotC is homophobic, or a tyrant who chains up its artists. Sometimes we have to admit that even our idols can do "wrong" things, and we can't blindly follow them and shoot down WotC for reigning Argyle in.
OK after seeing the artwork... the ONLY thing that comes to mind is Macabre Waltz and.... yeah.
Albeit I do recall some angels or something holding their oversized swords like a stripper pole.
what was OVER THE LINE is what wizards did. They even took down his comments about the issuie. They are censoring him and controlling the story.
You have to be on his side. How could you not!
Emille, Seven-Sting Dancer Shalin Nariya
If you go out on the weekend and start hanging up signs around town that say "[businesses I work for] kills and eats babies", and were seen by your boss, would you expect to have a job come monday?
Freedom of speech in the US says that the government lets you say what you want in public spaces as long as it's not obscene or putting people in immediate danger. It doesn't say your job can't fire you because you're taking actions that are potentially harmful to the dignity of the brand.
uktabi orangutan, not people but pretty poor
I think the art was okay. It's not his A-list work, but it's a good piece. The problem is even though Magic's art is freelance, they don't get to do whatever the muse encourages. I don't believe Argyle should stop getting calls for work from Wizards any more than Lockwood did when he posted all his Guildpact art early, even though Argyle acknowledged the risks and posted the thing anyway.
Like I said, Argyle's a great artist and a great person. Doesn't change the fact that he should have known better. One doesn't just freewheel under a contract if there's even the slightest chance of it being defamatory to the brand. Putting it up on Deviant Art and bragging is a hundred times worse than altering it on a Magic card, several of which are PG-13 yet no one raises a complaint.
Here is the thing. They took down more then just that pic. They took down ALL THE FAIR USE STUFF HE HAS ON THE NET. think about that. They ****ing layed the hammer down on him. How is that ok!
I remember the backlash with wizards and Rebecca Guay. Since then, I haven't seen any recent work by her at all (and Auramancer doesn't count since it was a reprint). They joked around with Persecute Artist, but she has disappeared since then (The common sentiment, being, that her art doesn't fit with the flavor they want).
What was the backlash like?
Also, this:
The same parents that would frown upon two people acting lovingly towards one another would be ok with demons and human sacrifice? Suuuuuure.
I'm pretty sure if soccer moms have learned how to cope with demons and rituals then they won't care about what someone drew on teh internet.
It may cause speculation reggarding future sets etc because he has done official Art.
This is very logical.
What is also logical is the fact that no one should be cencored for fan art.
But because of his Relation to WOTC as an official artist he probably has signed a contract even.
On the not logical side lets get political about two girls together?
Two girls one loyalty counter? I liek
I couldnt agree more. Moreover, if the art depicted Jace and Liliana, would there be similar heterophobic comments?
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
I suspect that if the artwork depicted Jace and Liliana, it may not have been removed.
This is something I want to touch up on. In WOTCs eyes, I do not think that gory/gruesome images are in the same group as images depicting an intimate nature.
If the art for Gwendlyn Di Corci was submitted today, I doubt it would get printed. Not that today's standards are more prude than in the mid 90's, but because WOTC has a better hold on who their targeted audience is.
Your perception of Wizards verges on the draconian. I sincerely doubt that they personally took down all the 'fair use' (I'll return to this axiom in a moment), material he had online. In fact, I don't even think they told the websites to pull them off. Chances are that they asked Argyle himself to do so, and because martyrs don't pay their bills as often as professional artists, he obliged them.
This isn't Wizards trying to stamp out creativity. It certainly isn't laying the hammer down on fair use either, because that may not apply in Argyle's case, depending on the contract he signed when he agreed to paint for Magic. Fair use is not the broad blanket people so often presume. Argyle does above-board work for them, and he used their characters in a scenario that isn't within the realm of personal commissions like altered cards or doodled playmats. If Wizards doesn't like it, and Argyle was pretty sure they wouldn't like it but still did it, he takes it down or risks getting torched by one of the biggest names in fantasy hobbies. Not a hard decision.
The sexual nature of the illustration was probably the tipping point, I'll grant that, but the genders involved are irrelevant beyond hyping up the piece.
But seriously, ungodly amounts of blood is fine, but every straight male mtg players fantasy is not? Are Rat-boobs any better? C'mon. Personally, I think theyre making a bad decision. Mtg died a little when the got rid of the Foglios, and this is alot like that. It's not like kids will turn gay from playing magic.
I'm a little saddened by this actually.
All his **** is down, his statement about it is down, all his comments. They are strongarming him. If you are not with him, and you are siding with wizards you are the 1%.
Support your man, that is fine.
But don't blow this out of proportion.
He was a bit buzzed when he put up that artwork, he said as much in the post included with it on Deviantart (by the way, the line drawing it came from had been on his DA account for a while before he posted the final version). Argyle may have taken it down on his own once he had time to think about it.
More likely though is that Wizards asked for it to be removed and he complied.
Describing it as Wizards "strongarming" him may be a bit severe seeing as we don't actually know what went on.
...and now you are just being ridiculous.
Your timeline is pretty wrong there; the backlash happened when her art didn't appear in the Mirrodin block, but she returned for Champions of Kamigawa and her work appeared in most sets through Eventide (admittedly, in smaller numbers than it previously had), which was years after Persecute Artist was printed.
On the other, this kind of work exists en-masse for just about every MTG character in existence(including non-humans).
Wizards knows sex sells, anyone who's flipped through a D&D book or even glanced at some MTG cards knows they know this. Personally I think this is just an overreaction on Wizards part, and they're really going to do more harm than good by putting the screws to their artists than by allowing the occasional "fan-service" image.
Yes I'm aware that to our knowledge, they haven't done this to any other artists, but as a realist, actions set precedence. If it happens once, it'll happen again.
WAnglesW
WUBRGThe BroodGRBUW
WUGAllymillGUW
i wonder if wizards will take this same avatar away from me on their forums now?:)
In case the other link goes down, I found another version of it uploaded here.