I am a MBA grad student so I 100% understand what Hasbro is doing and the oil industry. At the point it is, there is no reason to think prices wont keep dropping till next summer, in that case they will just jump again. We might have basically settled into a cycle. Yes gas will never be less than $2 again, but add in the fact of the stagnant SUV and booming mid-size car industry, I think this year will show a beginning of a cycle of gas prices...I have actually done more research than you, I wrote a 15 page paper on the topic this past year too...
Also, a Hurricane is an act of god, so any predictions are subject to change in that of course...
Doubtful that it has anything to do with Greed. The invitational genuinely has very little following and very few people who get to go... which is why most of the board doesn't care. States however... come on WotC. States pulled in the player bases from the far corners, areas where MTG only barely exists, where you have to drive a couple of hours to the nearest metropolitan area to find a card shop. It brought these players out once a year (twice maybe -- three times if you play 2HG) and allowed them to chance to meet everyone else in the state who plays, find new levels of competition, and connect somehow to the larger Magic playing populace...
I cannot imagine that cutting States saved them any overhead... in reality it probably just hurt a bunch of TOs and made any chance of getting premiere events near you more and more rare.
Surprisingly the invitational does cost a lot of money to put on. It required convention center floor space, it required weeks of web content to promote the election of players that get to go. I required bandwidth for web content, and it required lots of paid employee time to organize, cover, promote, and run the event. If I had to guess I would say the invitational costs over a million dollars to run.
It's a private company, not the Army. It's not going to pay a million dollars when it can pay 10,000.
You'll never see this in any product where there's not a heavily tangible quality difference, because a business that overcharges doesn't last.
Are you kidding me? These are just the common everyday examples of no real tangible difference but huge price differences
-FOOD: name brand verses generic store brand of EVERYTHING and the fact that even name brand food goes on sale once in a while.. GAS NEVER DOES and the discount gas retailer down the street from the Exxon station is a penny a gallon cheaper.. oo look that $3.99 gas is .25% cheaper than the $4.00 gas
-Clothing: my girlfriend/mom.. and pretty much every woman I know can tell me about how they got this or that great thing on sale for 90% off.. while to me I go to walmart pay 2 bucks for socks, go to Macy's pay 10 bucks for the SAME socks with Macy's on it, or go to some mall specialty store and spend $20 for the same white cotton socks.. and its the same damn thing for most other forms of clothing.. Yes a silk shirt will cost you more than a cotton, but there are $100+ clothing items out there that are 99% the same as 10 dollar clothes
-perscription drugs: where there is NO difference between brand and generic other than the shape and color of pills, in MANY cases the pills(both brand and generic) come from the same factory made by the same company and the only difference is a letter stamped into the pill
I could think of more if I had to.. but I hope you understand my point..
sorry to get off topic
Its the same in magic, you can pay 140 bucks for a box retail, or 80 bucks online.. and guess what, the packs are the same! So guess what is always going to happen!
This change really crushes a part inside of me. Ever since I first heard of the invitational, it has been my dream to play in it and win. The tournament of tournaments. The dream of dreams. The elite of the elite. Immortality on cardboard. Now? That chance gone.
While I will agree that if they had to cut something I would rather they cut this, an event that very few people participate in, than more of the public events like States, JSS, or Pro Tours. Although, at the same time, I can't help but wonder how much the invitational really cost them to run. Although, in all fairness, it's an event that doesn't generate any revenue, so even low costs might not be justifiable.
I hope it comes back someday. I will hold out hope that it does. And when it does, I hope that I will be at a level of which that I can finally see my chance at that dream.
I know exactly what you mean, when I found out Darwin Castle is the guy riding the mountain, I wanted to do that... have a card made in my likeness, not riding down a mountain on a shield. Although, that could be fun also...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
There's no penalty for failing to sacrifice a Homonculus.
The invitational was amazingly fun to read about, but I never would wait for the results or look forward to it. The card was IMO the best part about it.
I wish they would start allowing the world champion to submit a card, starting with Uri Peleg (I don't know why, but he wasn't able to go to KL and I don't believe he was at Hollywood [correct me if I am wrong]). But I think letting a World Champion be internalized in the game on a card would be a cool idea
Uhh....
So, about that Invitational - wasn't it just a PR fest?
The last few invitationals were held at E3, and primarily used as exposure for Magic and the MTGO client. It was surreal if you're a big magic fan - seeing a ton of the best pro's at work - and then realizing the rest of E3 was a lot more exciting. Once E3 changed, they didn't have the same fanbase attending (if you could call it that) - it would have been like flying out two dozen players to play in a vaccuum. Furthermore the WoTC game development wing is expanding and probably using their E3 floor space to focus on other things.
Even when I was at the 04-05 invitationals there weren't usually more than 5-10 people onlooking (and that's being generous), and the pros were usually busy and/or grumpy and weren't generally approachable. Rosewater and Bueller often looked kinda pathetic, talking to themselves. The Wotc booth was always tucked in the far corner of one of the quieter E3 floors, which is nice for Magic players, but not great for exposure. The online broadcast of the tournament is where the value for fans came about because it was tagged with the glamour of the pro's and E3. But where's the value to Hasbro if you're not trying to sell Magic/MTG3.0 or bring attention to it while it's in a hugely failed state?
Even the formats that Rosewater chose were kinda reaching into the sheer novelty value of things, and the onlookers (i.e. investors/press core) could care less what creative thing he had cooked up. In other words, the invitationals didn't really serve the people - or the ones that they're paying attention to more now with the grass roots efforts. They just touted the pro players as means to get positive exposure for Magic and MTGO - not that there was no value in that, but clearly, not enough was gained.
On the plus side, I do like all those free mouse pads they gave out - very nice.
So, if Hasbro is doing so well financially, to the tune of record sales even...then why all the cuts?
As I've been saying all along, this whole thing just spells G-R-E-E-D to me.
This is my favorite quote so far. It kind of proves that we "Americans" as you say saphire, do have an idea of what goes on with hasbro. Just like the gas companies, hasbro is getting greedy and i have a theory. Just like with gas prices, i believe that magic will have a breaking point. Some change/cut will occur that will make the sky in magic fall, whether it be another change in the rare system or the cutting of something like the PT.
Are you kidding me? These are just the common everyday examples of no real tangible difference but huge price differences
-FOOD: name brand verses generic store brand of EVERYTHING and the fact that even name brand food goes on sale once in a while.. GAS NEVER DOES and the discount gas retailer down the street from the Exxon station is a penny a gallon cheaper.. oo look that $3.99 gas is .25% cheaper than the $4.00 gas
-Clothing: my girlfriend/mom.. and pretty much every woman I know can tell me about how they got this or that great thing on sale for 90% off.. while to me I go to walmart pay 2 bucks for socks, go to Macy's pay 10 bucks for the SAME socks with Macy's on it, or go to some mall specialty store and spend $20 for the same white cotton socks.. and its the same damn thing for most other forms of clothing.. Yes a silk shirt will cost you more than a cotton, but there are $100+ clothing items out there that are 99% the same as 10 dollar clothes
-perscription drugs: where there is NO difference between brand and generic other than the shape and color of pills, in MANY cases the pills(both brand and generic) come from the same factory made by the same company and the only difference is a letter stamped into the pill
I could think of more if I had to.. but I hope you understand my point..
sorry to get off topic
Its the same in magic, you can pay 140 bucks for a box retail, or 80 bucks online.. and guess what, the packs are the same! So guess what is always going to happen!
LOL is all i have to say about this post.... your analogies are trash and completely irrelevant.
Also do we have any confirmation from the mothership about states return?
This is my favorite quote so far. It kind of proves that we "Americans" as you say saphire, do have an idea of what goes on with hasbro. Just like the gas companies, hasbro is getting greedy and i have a theory. Just like with gas prices, i believe that magic will have a breaking point. Some change/cut will occur that will make the sky in magic fall, whether it be another change in the rare system or the cutting of something like the PT.
First of all, there use to be only 3 PTs and this thing of having 4 or more is a recent thing. 2ndly, the upped the prize pay out for all the summer GPs so that even things out a bit. The reason the PT was cut was not the prize money but the expense to hold it and to give other 'avg' players a chance to win more money.
And the greedy thing is just ignorant people not understanding business and thinking that the 'man' is just trying to keep ya down and take your money. Do a little business research before you start to declare businesses greedy.
First of all, there use to be only 3 PTs and this thing of having 4 or more is a recent thing. 2ndly, the upped the prize pay out for all the summer GPs so that even things out a bit. The reason the PT was cut was not the prize money but the expense to hold it and to give other 'avg' players a chance to win more money.
And the greedy thing is just ignorant people not understanding business and thinking that the 'man' is just trying to keep ya down and take your money. Do a little business research before you start to declare businesses greedy.
You seem to be the ignorant one friend. Hasbro is a buisness, i understand that, but they are really getting greedy for money. In the quote i refrenced
HAsbro declared 2007 as a record breaking year at a 330 million dollar profit and stocks raising 50%. (ANd in case you haven't noticed, the stock market really ain't doing so good nowadays.) From the sound of it, you sound like a buisness owner, so don't insult my inteligence by saying Hasbro is hurting for money.
You're right they didnt just have a large recall in the 6 months for toys with lead problems or their costs of toys just didnt rise in the past 2 months with massive oil increases, what was i thinking? From the sound of it, you sound like some one that doesnt know business and just reads things with out understanding, so dont insult my intelliegence by saying Hasbro is hurting by recent incidents
Please keep comments on the topic at hand and off of insulting other users. Several posts in this thread are skirting dangerously close to being infracted.
Any further cases of calling other users ignorant, telling other users that they don't have a right to post in this thread, or anything of that sort will be infracted without additional warning.
1) Regarding Hasbro, keep in mind that they are a publicly traded company; as such, they are legally required to do what is best for the shareholders. So if they are being greedy and only helping their bottom line, they are in compliance of the law. It may suck, but that's the way it is.
2) The announcement did not say that the Invitational was cut because of budget issues. The announcement was that it was part of refocusing Magic toward the "grassroots" players. As I mentioned earlier, focusing on these players and keeping the Pro Tour are incompatible; the entire point of the PT is to promote Magic as more than just a casual game.
Last week, I was thinking maybe an announcement near the end of 2009, but now I expect to see an announcement of the end of the Pro Tour made at PT: Berlin.
Edit: Binary: Since I haven't called anyone ignorant before the Red Message of Doom, do I get a free shot?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Guns don't kill people. Bullets kill people. Guns just make them move really, really fast.
You're right they didnt just have a large recall in the 6 months for toys with lead problems or their costs of toys just didnt rise in the past 2 months with massive oil increases, what was i thinking? From the sound of it, you sound like some one that doesnt know business and just reads things with out understanding, so dont insult my intelliegence by saying Hasbro is hurting by recent incidents
I never said they were. I was saying that Hasbro did this because they WANTED more money, not because they NEEDED it.
Look at it this way. They cut or reduced everything they could. They had no illusions about possibly making some players mad. What is truely missed will come back. What is not, will never be seen again.
They are trying new things. Some of these new things will work, some will not. But introducing a cohesive, public system, that can be stamped out around the world providing a business model that aids local sellers is the best move by wizards right now.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
For T2 Tournament:
E-Mail: [email]rancorous@gmail.com[/email]
AIM: Rancorous Fool
I really liked the invitational. Hopefully they will at least do more You Make the Card in its stead since this is probably going away for a long time.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I am looking for Date Stamped promos from Khans of Tarkir block so I can finish my set. Check my wants if you have any.
Currently offering 2 non-foil Kolighan's Command for a Date Stamped foil!
I really liked the invitational. Hopefully they will at least do more You Make the Card in its stead since this is probably going away for a long time.
I would bet not that long. MaRo really loves it, and will push for it to be added again at every turn.
Look at it this way. They cut or reduced everything they could. They had no illusions about possibly making some players mad. What is truely missed will come back. What is not, will never be seen again.
They are trying new things. Some of these new things will work, some will not. But introducing a cohesive, public system, that can be stamped out around the world providing a business model that aids local sellers is the best move by wizards right now.
My issue is the business model itself; that is, the move away from big tournaments and competitive play and toward the "kitchen table" players. In order to succeed at that model, they have to get rid of the Pro Tour entirely as well as the bigger tournaments like States and Champs; those two things - and as a general rule, the types of players attracted to these things - are irreconcilable.
Can't really say much that I even cared, to be honest the card thing could be tied to a more productive tournament. That was the only concept I thought that was really any good.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
I would bet not that long. MaRo really loves it, and will push for it to be added again at every turn.
Can you blame him? It definitely adds a lot to the game including a new perspective on design. Hell, look at how awesome Shadowmage Infiltrator and Dark Confidant are. I wonder if they really will print the land with channel :2mana::symu::symu:: Counter target spell. It seems like a cool idea but might be too good/annoying.
Also, a Hurricane is an act of god, so any predictions are subject to change in that of course...
I cannot imagine that cutting States saved them any overhead... in reality it probably just hurt a bunch of TOs and made any chance of getting premiere events near you more and more rare.
-Yavimaya Ranger
Whaaaaaaat?
You'll never see this in any product where there's not a heavily tangible quality difference, because a business that overcharges doesn't last.
It's a private company, not the Army. It's not going to pay a million dollars when it can pay 10,000.
Are you kidding me? These are just the common everyday examples of no real tangible difference but huge price differences
-FOOD: name brand verses generic store brand of EVERYTHING and the fact that even name brand food goes on sale once in a while.. GAS NEVER DOES and the discount gas retailer down the street from the Exxon station is a penny a gallon cheaper.. oo look that $3.99 gas is .25% cheaper than the $4.00 gas
-Clothing: my girlfriend/mom.. and pretty much every woman I know can tell me about how they got this or that great thing on sale for 90% off.. while to me I go to walmart pay 2 bucks for socks, go to Macy's pay 10 bucks for the SAME socks with Macy's on it, or go to some mall specialty store and spend $20 for the same white cotton socks.. and its the same damn thing for most other forms of clothing.. Yes a silk shirt will cost you more than a cotton, but there are $100+ clothing items out there that are 99% the same as 10 dollar clothes
-perscription drugs: where there is NO difference between brand and generic other than the shape and color of pills, in MANY cases the pills(both brand and generic) come from the same factory made by the same company and the only difference is a letter stamped into the pill
I could think of more if I had to.. but I hope you understand my point..
sorry to get off topic
Its the same in magic, you can pay 140 bucks for a box retail, or 80 bucks online.. and guess what, the packs are the same! So guess what is always going to happen!
I know exactly what you mean, when I found out Darwin Castle is the guy riding the mountain, I wanted to do that... have a card made in my likeness, not riding down a mountain on a shield. Although, that could be fun also...
There's no penalty for failing to sacrifice a Homonculus.
I wish they would start allowing the world champion to submit a card, starting with Uri Peleg (I don't know why, but he wasn't able to go to KL and I don't believe he was at Hollywood [correct me if I am wrong]). But I think letting a World Champion be internalized in the game on a card would be a cool idea
So, about that Invitational - wasn't it just a PR fest?
The last few invitationals were held at E3, and primarily used as exposure for Magic and the MTGO client. It was surreal if you're a big magic fan - seeing a ton of the best pro's at work - and then realizing the rest of E3 was a lot more exciting. Once E3 changed, they didn't have the same fanbase attending (if you could call it that) - it would have been like flying out two dozen players to play in a vaccuum. Furthermore the WoTC game development wing is expanding and probably using their E3 floor space to focus on other things.
Even when I was at the 04-05 invitationals there weren't usually more than 5-10 people onlooking (and that's being generous), and the pros were usually busy and/or grumpy and weren't generally approachable. Rosewater and Bueller often looked kinda pathetic, talking to themselves. The Wotc booth was always tucked in the far corner of one of the quieter E3 floors, which is nice for Magic players, but not great for exposure. The online broadcast of the tournament is where the value for fans came about because it was tagged with the glamour of the pro's and E3. But where's the value to Hasbro if you're not trying to sell Magic/MTG3.0 or bring attention to it while it's in a hugely failed state?
Even the formats that Rosewater chose were kinda reaching into the sheer novelty value of things, and the onlookers (i.e. investors/press core) could care less what creative thing he had cooked up. In other words, the invitationals didn't really serve the people - or the ones that they're paying attention to more now with the grass roots efforts. They just touted the pro players as means to get positive exposure for Magic and MTGO - not that there was no value in that, but clearly, not enough was gained.
On the plus side, I do like all those free mouse pads they gave out - very nice.
This is my favorite quote so far. It kind of proves that we "Americans" as you say saphire, do have an idea of what goes on with hasbro. Just like the gas companies, hasbro is getting greedy and i have a theory. Just like with gas prices, i believe that magic will have a breaking point. Some change/cut will occur that will make the sky in magic fall, whether it be another change in the rare system or the cutting of something like the PT.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
LOL is all i have to say about this post.... your analogies are trash and completely irrelevant.
Also do we have any confirmation from the mothership about states return?
Yes i am the same guy who trades/sells on MOTL AND Wizards of the Coast and i trade on POJO.
First of all, there use to be only 3 PTs and this thing of having 4 or more is a recent thing. 2ndly, the upped the prize pay out for all the summer GPs so that even things out a bit. The reason the PT was cut was not the prize money but the expense to hold it and to give other 'avg' players a chance to win more money.
And the greedy thing is just ignorant people not understanding business and thinking that the 'man' is just trying to keep ya down and take your money. Do a little business research before you start to declare businesses greedy.
You seem to be the ignorant one friend. Hasbro is a buisness, i understand that, but they are really getting greedy for money. In the quote i refrenced
HAsbro declared 2007 as a record breaking year at a 330 million dollar profit and stocks raising 50%. (ANd in case you haven't noticed, the stock market really ain't doing so good nowadays.) From the sound of it, you sound like a buisness owner, so don't insult my inteligence by saying Hasbro is hurting for money.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Any further cases of calling other users ignorant, telling other users that they don't have a right to post in this thread, or anything of that sort will be infracted without additional warning.
1) Regarding Hasbro, keep in mind that they are a publicly traded company; as such, they are legally required to do what is best for the shareholders. So if they are being greedy and only helping their bottom line, they are in compliance of the law. It may suck, but that's the way it is.
2) The announcement did not say that the Invitational was cut because of budget issues. The announcement was that it was part of refocusing Magic toward the "grassroots" players. As I mentioned earlier, focusing on these players and keeping the Pro Tour are incompatible; the entire point of the PT is to promote Magic as more than just a casual game.
Last week, I was thinking maybe an announcement near the end of 2009, but now I expect to see an announcement of the end of the Pro Tour made at PT: Berlin.
Edit: Binary: Since I haven't called anyone ignorant before the Red Message of Doom, do I get a free shot?
No.
I never said they were. I was saying that Hasbro did this because they WANTED more money, not because they NEEDED it.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
The old game center on the Ave in Seattle was when Magic hit it's pinnacle... then hit Hasbro.
LISTEN TO MAH SONGZ!
@BillyTheFridge
I will not throw myself into a river (or grow tired of your great vision for mtg.)
I eagerly await the next cut.
Bless you.
They are trying new things. Some of these new things will work, some will not. But introducing a cohesive, public system, that can be stamped out around the world providing a business model that aids local sellers is the best move by wizards right now.
E-Mail: [email]rancorous@gmail.com[/email]
AIM: Rancorous Fool
Thanks to spiderboy4 @ High~Light Studios
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=3304230#post3304230
HOW TO CONSTRUCT MANA BASE (not mine)
T2 -
WW Kithkin
RGW Zoo
Currently offering 2 non-foil Kolighan's Command for a Date Stamped foil!
convert bulk into good cards? PucaTrade - https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/21195
Ebay - decks/Promos/DVDs
Trade thread (constantly updated)
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/337-pokerbob1s-casual-trading-emporium
I would bet not that long. MaRo really loves it, and will push for it to be added again at every turn.
You should read them.
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen"
My issue is the business model itself; that is, the move away from big tournaments and competitive play and toward the "kitchen table" players. In order to succeed at that model, they have to get rid of the Pro Tour entirely as well as the bigger tournaments like States and Champs; those two things - and as a general rule, the types of players attracted to these things - are irreconcilable.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
techoverrated.