I wonder if anyone is familiar with Prototype Theory in Linguistics. I bring this up because I think people throw the word cheater around to easily. While yes, technically in the rules and regulations for judges and penalties Stalling (if Saito is in fact guilty) is technically cheating.
But the people just coming in here and throwing the word around are not contributing to the debate. That is why I respect Solaran_X for participating in the debate, although he did say something like 'rampant cheater' and I disagree with his assessment of the situation.
Anyway, Prototype Theory refers to the idea that when we hear a word we go to the best example that we have in our head for that word. That can be different between people for example if someone says dog I think Black Lab cause I have had them my whole life and someone who had a chihuahua might think chihuahua. For me, chihuahua is farther down the list of "Good Examples of Dogs".
There is a danger in confusing the issue at hand when you come into this forum and just shout "cheater got caught" because for most people the prototype of cheater, i.e. the best example of a cheater for them in the context of a card game is likely something like:
"Stacks decks"
"Had an extra card in his sleeve"
And things like that. Even if technically stalling is cheating by the rules, I think we would be hard up to find someone who thinks stalling is the best example of cheating.
So when people come into the forum and say "cheater got caught" and many people don't read the whole forum or the news article it is likely going to spread a false image of the Saito DQ.
On a side note, Saito has submitted a statement to the judges saying why he was acting the way he did and about the board state. I know lots of you don't by the argument, but we should wait and see what the judges do with that new information.
Well, this is kind of shameful. A Hall of Famer (I think) caught cheating, on that note, I think ChannelFireball was right in cutting him loose, having that kind of player on your line-up really hurts the credibility of the site.
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why cheat when you are the best player right now?
too much spotlight and pressure to win tells you to cheat
But what if his history of cheating has had an undue influence on his status as the best player right now?
Looking back at Saito's play history, what would happen if we reevaluated each of his draws in any given tournament into a loss? How much of an impact would that have on his record, and thus his Pro Points, and thus his initial qualifications to even be voted for for the HoF?
I know for a fact he wouldn't have won GP: Columbus if he hadn't stalled against Jacestill in the Top 4 by rereading Jace, tMS every turn, recounting cards in his and his opponent's graveyard every turn, seeing what cards his opponent had in his graveyard every turn, holding up his opponent when he was casting something by deciding whether or not to Daze the spell when his opponent had 4 mana open to pay for the Daze and knew the only card in hand was a Daze, and spending time every turn to decide to Wasteland a Mishra's Factory or not even with his opponent's active Life from the Loam.
No matter how you cut it, Saito has a history of stalling. Not just slow play, but outright stalling. And it has, without a doubt, contributed to his success in the game. He got where he is by, whether once or a hundred times, breaking the rules everyone has to adhere to.
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I know for a fact he wouldn't have won GP: Columbus if he hadn't stalled against Jacestill in the Top 4 by rereading Jace, tMS every turn, recounting cards in his and his opponent's graveyard every turn, seeing what cards his opponent had in his graveyard every turn, holding up his opponent when he was casting something by deciding whether or not to Daze the spell when his opponent had 4 mana open to pay for the Daze and knew the only card in hand was a Daze, and spending time every turn to decide to Wasteland a Mishra's Factory or not even with his opponent's active Life from the Loam.
You are, of course, aware that matches in the top 8 are untimed, and therefore stalling is not going to have any impact on the result?
You are, of course, aware that matches in the top 8 are untimed, and therefore stalling is not going to have any impact on the result?
Doesn't change the fact that, for some reason, Saito stalled that match and drew it out.
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Stalling is actually per definition impossible if there is no timer. He was probably just playing slowly, which while against the rules (even in untimed matches), can't be called cheating.
I'm not going to defend his actions, but let's not see this as an opportunity to wrongly accuse him of this and that.
Edit: Sarnath'd. Also, the misuse of the word "fact" can be a little comical sometimes, if I may say so.
Stalling is actually per definition impossible if there is no timer. He was probably just playing slowly, which while against the rules (even in untimed matches), can't be called cheating.
I'm not going to defend his actions, but let's not see this as an opportunity to wrongly accuse him of this and that.
Edit: Sarnath'd. Also, the misuse of the word "fact" can be a little comical sometimes, if I may say so.
Explain, please.
How can an activity be against the rules of a game, and not be cheating?
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In untimed matches, slow play is against the game's rules mainly because of logistics. There is a limit for how long a tournament can last, and therefore they have to make sure the players keep a reasonable pace in their play.
There are other activities that are against the rules that surely don't have anything to do with cheating. For example, having food on the table while playing is not allowed, but would you call a guy eating and playing at the same time a cheater?
That is a ridiculously bad logical comparison. Eating at the table can't affect the game state/your opponent's ability to participate in the match. Unless it is causing you to play slowly!
I think ChannelFireball was right in cutting him loose, having that kind of player on your line-up really hurts the credibility of the site.
Where'd you get that info at? I check the CFB site and it still lists him on their Articles front page and still has all his articles on file.
Anyways, as someone who's played with, traded with, and talked with Saito on a personal basis, yeah... he slow plays. Guess what, so do a lot of pros. Some of them even play two lands a turn.
It's not right, but know he's not alone.
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Where'd you get that info at? I check the CFB site and it still lists him on their Articles front page and still has all his articles on file.
Anyways, as someone who's played with, traded with, and talked with Saito on a personal basis, yeah... he slow plays. Guess what, so do a lot of pros. Some of them even play two lands a turn.
It's not right, but know he's not alone.
I just got done recording Monday Night Magic with Chris Otwell and the gang. Saito has been Cut from the team pretty much because their hands were tied; he's been villianized(prehaps too strong a word) by the community, and team CFB had little choice. his old articles will be there, but he's been cut.
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I just got done recording Monday Night Magic with Chris Otwell and the gang. Saito has been Cut from the team pretty much because their hands were tied; he's been villianized(prehaps too strong a word) by the community, and team CFB had little choice. his old articles will be there, but he's been cut.
If he's on the cast tonight, I'm interested to hear what Conley's take on this whole situation is.
Hopefulness aside, I never do enjoy when these type of scandals occur; they just seem to do more damage to the community than anything else. I'm not saying that people do not have the right to be upset - they most definitely do - but it always seems as though the whole timeline (the incident, consequences for players, aftermath on forums, etc.) of events begins as a small flame and manifests itself into an inferno. In the end, all we're left with is nothing but a charred wasteland; one that leaves a pretty big scar on the face of the community.
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Doesn't change the fact that, for some reason, Saito stalled that match and drew it out.
Not sure what you are talking about. Saito was doing his shady stuff round 10 when he was playing against Ford. He ended up with 43 points (three players with worse tiebreaks than him made top 8 with 39 points). If you assume that he loses the game he stalls, he finishes with 42 points instead of 43 and still top 8s. In the top 8, he played against BGW rockish, Vengevine Survival and 4c CB Top. Please do not speak so assertively when you seem to not know any of the facts.
As far as I know, there are time limits in the rounds, even in top 8. There use to not be a time limit in top 8 until Teferi's Moat was in standard the first time around since those matches literally often took hours.
I know many of the pros do things they often get away with. A large part to this is the fact that a lot of them know the judges and are close friends with them or they literally do it in the sneakiest way that often no one catches them.
The thing that makes some of the pros and even some regular magic players cheat is the fact that their opponents are not paying as much attention to the game as they should.
I'm pretty sure Saito just slow plays, this accusation came because the game dragged out from a hectic game state. I believe people are just too quick to point fingers, falsely accusing Tomoharu Saito of stalling and cheating.
So your expert opinion is that the judge who was watching him is wrong? Were you at the match? Did you observe in person? What is your professional training? Are you a Level 4 Judge?
Stalling has always been an interesting accusation to me because it says that intent is required but how do you prove intent? Unless Saito admits to it, which he doesn't, there is no way to prove it so it really seems like it is up to the judge observing the match to make the call. If they think there is intent then there "is" intent, even if the player is not intentionally stalling.
I wasn't there so I can't say one way or the other if I would have thought he was intentionally stalling but I will say this: Saito's play is a very biased subject. Look at how many people just on this site came out to say how happy they were he got DQ'd because of all the past times he got away with it. Now I wonder if the judge observing the match had any opinion on Saito beforehand. I'd like to think that even if they had strong feelings against him they would still be objective but we are all human and sometimes that isn't easy. I have a feeling that if some of the people on this thread were judges watching a Saito match they would jump in with a DQ the moment he picked up a card to read it.
My own personal feelings are that he is a slow player who may try to use the clock to his advantage at times. I'm definitely not his biggest fan. He should definitely be penalized for that although I think it is a hard rule to actually enforce. If he got caught drawing extra cards or manipulating his opponent's deck or something I would say that Wizards should consider dropping him from the HoF but since he got the DQ for Stalling, when it is entirely possible he wasn't stalling, I think that he shouldn't receive a suspension or lose his HoF spot.
I think it's fair to say that the infraction that they ultimately decided to get Saito for is a hard one to enforce.
But at the same time, the guy gets warnings etc. etc at every event he plays out, and is widely regarded as a shady player that just knows how to work the system. That type of attitude is always going to catch up with you in the end, just like it did here.
My own personal feelings are that he is a slow player who may try to use the clock to his advantage at times. I'm definitely not his biggest fan. He should definitely be penalized for that although I think it is a hard rule to actually enforce. If he got caught drawing extra cards or manipulating his opponent's deck or something I would say that Wizards should consider dropping him from the HoF but since he got the DQ for Stalling, when it is entirely possible he wasn't stalling, I think that he shouldn't receive a suspension or lose his HoF spot.
He got this penalty because he has already received warnings at high level events for slow play. The judge was looking at his play speed with that knowledge, but that doesn't necessarily make him biased simply aware.
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He got this penalty because he has already received warnings at high level events for slow play. The judge was looking at his play speed with that knowledge, but that doesn't necessarily make him biased simply aware.
Sure but repeated warnings for slow play is not the same thing as Stalling. You can get a ton of warnings for slow play but still not be cheating. You may just be a slow player. My fiancée plays at a snail's pace and if she played in a serious event she would almost certainly get warnings for slow play but I don't think she would have the presence of mind to intentionally play slow to gain an advantage. Now I can understand if the judges were watching him for slow play because of his past warnings but that shouldn't influence them making a call for Stalling.
I also didn't mean to imply that this judge actually was biased...just that I wouldn't be surprised if there were a number of judges out there who were.
Edit: I'm curious though. If somehow a judge were aware that a player had received a number of warnings for slow play in the past wouldn't the assumption be that they are a slow player? If the person wasn't famous like Saito but somehow the judge knew that then wouldn't the likely explanation be that they were playing slow because they are a slow player? I don't have a problem with people getting penalized for slow play and if there is a pattern over the course of a tournament then those penalties get upgraded but Stalling is such a hard thing to determine and the penalty and stigma are pretty severe.
Sure but repeated warnings for slow play is not the same thing as Stalling. You can get a ton of warnings for slow play but still not be cheating. You may just be a slow player. My fiancée plays at a snail's pace and if she played in a serious event she would almost certainly get warnings for slow play but I don't think she would have the presence of mind to intentionally play slow to gain an advantage. Now I can understand if the judges were watching him for slow play because of his past warnings but that shouldn't influence them making a call for Stalling.
I also didn't mean to imply that this judge actually was biased...just that I wouldn't be surprised if there were a number of judges out there who were.
Edit: I'm curious though. If somehow a judge were aware that a player had received a number of warnings for slow play in the past wouldn't the assumption be that they are a slow player? If the person wasn't famous like Saito but somehow the judge knew that then wouldn't the likely explanation be that they were playing slow because they are a slow player? I don't have a problem with people getting penalized for slow play and if there is a pattern over the course of a tournament then those penalties get upgraded but Stalling is such a hard thing to determine and the penalty and stigma are pretty severe.
My fiancée is a sloowwww player too but then again she's not up for a HOF nomination nor does she make money with her reputation as a pro.
I don’t really have an opinion on the stalling issue one way or the other. I wasn’t there so I don’t know if he was or if he wasn’t stalling. Besides it being interesting I’m not really qualified to say anything (really the only ones who are Saito and the judges) but I would expect a pro to be held to a higher standard then kitchen table casual or FNM level players. So given that this clearly isnt the first time there has been a issue with his play I cant say Im really surprised.
But the people just coming in here and throwing the word around are not contributing to the debate. That is why I respect Solaran_X for participating in the debate, although he did say something like 'rampant cheater' and I disagree with his assessment of the situation.
Anyway, Prototype Theory refers to the idea that when we hear a word we go to the best example that we have in our head for that word. That can be different between people for example if someone says dog I think Black Lab cause I have had them my whole life and someone who had a chihuahua might think chihuahua. For me, chihuahua is farther down the list of "Good Examples of Dogs".
There is a danger in confusing the issue at hand when you come into this forum and just shout "cheater got caught" because for most people the prototype of cheater, i.e. the best example of a cheater for them in the context of a card game is likely something like:
"Stacks decks"
"Had an extra card in his sleeve"
And things like that. Even if technically stalling is cheating by the rules, I think we would be hard up to find someone who thinks stalling is the best example of cheating.
So when people come into the forum and say "cheater got caught" and many people don't read the whole forum or the news article it is likely going to spread a false image of the Saito DQ.
On a side note, Saito has submitted a statement to the judges saying why he was acting the way he did and about the board state. I know lots of you don't by the argument, but we should wait and see what the judges do with that new information.
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But what if his history of cheating has had an undue influence on his status as the best player right now?
Looking back at Saito's play history, what would happen if we reevaluated each of his draws in any given tournament into a loss? How much of an impact would that have on his record, and thus his Pro Points, and thus his initial qualifications to even be voted for for the HoF?
I know for a fact he wouldn't have won GP: Columbus if he hadn't stalled against Jacestill in the Top 4 by rereading Jace, tMS every turn, recounting cards in his and his opponent's graveyard every turn, seeing what cards his opponent had in his graveyard every turn, holding up his opponent when he was casting something by deciding whether or not to Daze the spell when his opponent had 4 mana open to pay for the Daze and knew the only card in hand was a Daze, and spending time every turn to decide to Wasteland a Mishra's Factory or not even with his opponent's active Life from the Loam.
No matter how you cut it, Saito has a history of stalling. Not just slow play, but outright stalling. And it has, without a doubt, contributed to his success in the game. He got where he is by, whether once or a hundred times, breaking the rules everyone has to adhere to.
You are, of course, aware that matches in the top 8 are untimed, and therefore stalling is not going to have any impact on the result?
Doesn't change the fact that, for some reason, Saito stalled that match and drew it out.
It does remove the possibility of cheating by stalling though doesn't it?
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I'm not going to defend his actions, but let's not see this as an opportunity to wrongly accuse him of this and that.
Edit: Sarnath'd. Also, the misuse of the word "fact" can be a little comical sometimes, if I may say so.
Explain, please.
How can an activity be against the rules of a game, and not be cheating?
There are other activities that are against the rules that surely don't have anything to do with cheating. For example, having food on the table while playing is not allowed, but would you call a guy eating and playing at the same time a cheater?
Where'd you get that info at? I check the CFB site and it still lists him on their Articles front page and still has all his articles on file.
Anyways, as someone who's played with, traded with, and talked with Saito on a personal basis, yeah... he slow plays. Guess what, so do a lot of pros. Some of them even play two lands a turn.
It's not right, but know he's not alone.
I just got done recording Monday Night Magic with Chris Otwell and the gang. Saito has been Cut from the team pretty much because their hands were tied; he's been villianized(prehaps too strong a word) by the community, and team CFB had little choice. his old articles will be there, but he's been cut.
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If he's on the cast tonight, I'm interested to hear what Conley's take on this whole situation is.
Hopefulness aside, I never do enjoy when these type of scandals occur; they just seem to do more damage to the community than anything else. I'm not saying that people do not have the right to be upset - they most definitely do - but it always seems as though the whole timeline (the incident, consequences for players, aftermath on forums, etc.) of events begins as a small flame and manifests itself into an inferno. In the end, all we're left with is nothing but a charred wasteland; one that leaves a pretty big scar on the face of the community.
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Not sure what you are talking about. Saito was doing his shady stuff round 10 when he was playing against Ford. He ended up with 43 points (three players with worse tiebreaks than him made top 8 with 39 points). If you assume that he loses the game he stalls, he finishes with 42 points instead of 43 and still top 8s. In the top 8, he played against BGW rockish, Vengevine Survival and 4c CB Top. Please do not speak so assertively when you seem to not know any of the facts.
I know many of the pros do things they often get away with. A large part to this is the fact that a lot of them know the judges and are close friends with them or they literally do it in the sneakiest way that often no one catches them.
The thing that makes some of the pros and even some regular magic players cheat is the fact that their opponents are not paying as much attention to the game as they should.
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I wasn't there so I can't say one way or the other if I would have thought he was intentionally stalling but I will say this: Saito's play is a very biased subject. Look at how many people just on this site came out to say how happy they were he got DQ'd because of all the past times he got away with it. Now I wonder if the judge observing the match had any opinion on Saito beforehand. I'd like to think that even if they had strong feelings against him they would still be objective but we are all human and sometimes that isn't easy. I have a feeling that if some of the people on this thread were judges watching a Saito match they would jump in with a DQ the moment he picked up a card to read it.
My own personal feelings are that he is a slow player who may try to use the clock to his advantage at times. I'm definitely not his biggest fan. He should definitely be penalized for that although I think it is a hard rule to actually enforce. If he got caught drawing extra cards or manipulating his opponent's deck or something I would say that Wizards should consider dropping him from the HoF but since he got the DQ for Stalling, when it is entirely possible he wasn't stalling, I think that he shouldn't receive a suspension or lose his HoF spot.
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But at the same time, the guy gets warnings etc. etc at every event he plays out, and is widely regarded as a shady player that just knows how to work the system. That type of attitude is always going to catch up with you in the end, just like it did here.
He got this penalty because he has already received warnings at high level events for slow play. The judge was looking at his play speed with that knowledge, but that doesn't necessarily make him biased simply aware.
Sure but repeated warnings for slow play is not the same thing as Stalling. You can get a ton of warnings for slow play but still not be cheating. You may just be a slow player. My fiancée plays at a snail's pace and if she played in a serious event she would almost certainly get warnings for slow play but I don't think she would have the presence of mind to intentionally play slow to gain an advantage. Now I can understand if the judges were watching him for slow play because of his past warnings but that shouldn't influence them making a call for Stalling.
I also didn't mean to imply that this judge actually was biased...just that I wouldn't be surprised if there were a number of judges out there who were.
Edit: I'm curious though. If somehow a judge were aware that a player had received a number of warnings for slow play in the past wouldn't the assumption be that they are a slow player? If the person wasn't famous like Saito but somehow the judge knew that then wouldn't the likely explanation be that they were playing slow because they are a slow player? I don't have a problem with people getting penalized for slow play and if there is a pattern over the course of a tournament then those penalties get upgraded but Stalling is such a hard thing to determine and the penalty and stigma are pretty severe.
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My fiancée is a sloowwww player too but then again she's not up for a HOF nomination nor does she make money with her reputation as a pro.
I don’t really have an opinion on the stalling issue one way or the other. I wasn’t there so I don’t know if he was or if he wasn’t stalling. Besides it being interesting I’m not really qualified to say anything (really the only ones who are Saito and the judges) but I would expect a pro to be held to a higher standard then kitchen table casual or FNM level players. So given that this clearly isnt the first time there has been a issue with his play I cant say Im really surprised.
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