your missing my idea do both but make it so that your real boosters can be used as well. with that inplace more people will play online leading to more people buying what WOTC Really makes money with mtgo Tickets. People always have to buy more tickets as the game doesn't give them out as prizes and they are required to play any sanctioned play.
I haunt the MTGO boards. This idea isn't new and is far deeper than most paper players realize and it ties into paper supply chains, paper player habits, MSRP and much more.
There's always a flaw in the plan. WotC gets full MSRP from digital boosters (3.99 per pack + tix).
Paper has bulk booster box discounts.
Why would ANYONE pay 3.99 in the store when they could just buy a bulk of boosters online, use the codes and sell the singles on ebay/local store?
Answer; they wouldn't, and all retail pack sales disappear from the MTGO store, replaced by bulk boosters from paper packs.
And before someone says: "more purchases means more money for WotC!", that's only true if those purchases equal more money to WotC, not just more product sold.
What does WotC want more:
To sell me $100 worth of 3.99 packs, or
To sell me $100 worth of 2.99 packs?
Either way, I'm spending the same amount. The former keeps less product in the market, which increases single prices. The latter puts more product in the market and decreases singe prices. High single prices sell more boosters...
The only way WotC comes out ahead is if they price the bulk product in such a way that I now have to spend $120 instead of $100. But if my spending doesn't increase, bulk selling doesn't help them, but in fact hurts them. More bulk = more cards = more supply = appeased demand = less other purchases to fill that demand = less money to WotC.
Then there's the additional suggestion of making the packs non-usable in events. That requires lots of coding and making the non-event packs easily distinguishable that they cannot be used in an event. Otherwise I'll get them and sell them to noobs who finally see that they can't be used for drafting while I'm off laughing about the sale.
If they had started doing this before MTGO took off, it may have had a chance. However, now that there's a full MTGO economy and people holding thousands and thousand and thousand of boosters that equate to real MSRP packs, I don't see this being viable by WotC to implement.
.... sorry for the off topic diatribe, but it's a topic that has a lot more history than a lot of paper players realized....
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^^
MTGO Writer and Epic Time-Waster.
If you have questions about MTGO PM me, I'm all up ons, as it were.
Check out my articles on http://puremtgo.com/ I'm the nerd you see there... wait, not that one. Nope, not that one either... yeah. That one.
Wizards doesn't really care if you need the programs to test your new decks out on. They aren't making any money on singles sales. They want you to be forced to go out and buy any card you think would be good because it forces more unopened product to be sold and opened. If everybody knew exactly which cards worked for them then none of us would ever buy those useless cards and I'm sure tons of product wouldn't need to be opened. They care only about case sales. Woe is us little guys who can't stuff Wizards pockets full enough...and just like any other junkie I'm constantly forced to come up with ways of spending more and more. I guess I'm lucky to live in a city with many stores supporting a vibrant community, but I feel bad for those people who love the game on paper yet don't have access to large groups of players unless they play online.
Magic-league.com is a non profit organization, and one could quite convincingly argue that mws and appr are "research" tools. Magic-league will not have to shut down, obviously. this is a scare tactic of wotc.
Do you honestly believe you could convince someone that mws is a research tool? It's a tool for practicing a game, not digging up facts about it. Fair Use covers using copyrighted material in a purely information distribution capacity, and only if it is done in a volume small enough to not interfere with a company's business.
Example:
Showing a 10 second clip from a movie while reviewing it = legal
Showing the entire movie with a review voiceover = illegal
Which do you think is closer to what is going on here?
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Level 2 Judge GUB: All Clones, All the Time EDH GU: Amulet Combo MODERN
They could. By abusing legal leverage, they could "demand" that salvation remove all names of magic cards and images of magic trademarks, essentially ruining the site.
Well, yes, they can demand anything they want, but the names of magic cards are very clearly fair use--no court is going to take it seriously.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
Why can't you people understand that whether m-l is actually helping Wizards is completely irrelevant? The website is totally illegal either way. If someone steals from a bank every week and keeps accidentally dropping money in front of your house on his way home that you can pick up, it is still your duty to do something about it, even if it is profitable for you.
The issue is NOT whether shutting down m-l will hurt Wizards. It definitely could, and they know that. They are not attacking m-l because they think they're losing money from it, they're attacking it because it's violating copyright law- even if Wizards is making money from it.
Do you honestly believe you could convince someone that mws is a research tool? It's a tool for practicing a game, not digging up facts about it. Fair Use covers using copyrighted material in a purely information distribution capacity, and only if it is done in a volume small enough to not interfere with a company's business.
Example:
Showing a 10 second clip from a movie while reviewing it = legal
Showing the entire movie with a review voiceover = illegal
Which do you think is closer to what is going on here?
MWS and appr are blank card engines. You download a masterbase with magic cards in it.... or WoW cards... or whatever game you load in.
Magic: The Gathering is not a movie. Its completely different because its a game, has nothing to do with showing an entire movie. The entire database of cards is available to anyone on the internet, through dozens of websites. You have to consider what is actually going on here. The website itself does not violate any copyright laws. The closest they are to doing so is advertising the site as "free online magic the gathering" -- like its a free version of MTGO, which its not.
Do you honestly believe that mws is NOT a research tool? It is a practice tool, but it also gives you valuable information you cant get anywhere else.... like how many cards cost 1WW in extended, or how many block cards have the phrase "destroy target enchantment" -- furthermore, the use of this program can produce tournament results which over time provide metagame statistics. Anyone can join one of these daily trials with 60-80 people usually, and once its done you can view every deck being played. Now, these aren't real decks worth anything. On MTGO, your faerie deck is worth something. You can trade in those cryptic commands before they rotate out of standard for something on the order of like 10 draft sets.
Wizards is afraid MWS will replace MTGO, which isnt true. MTGO gives a much bigger viewing window; there are thousands and thousands of users compared to hundreds.
Another important question is, why magic-league? Why not shut down mtgsalvation? The difference between mtgs and magic-league is that you can arrange tournament/casual play with essentially online proxies on m-l. This is not in violation of any copyright laws. Can Wizards stop you from printing out proxies and using them? Not really. What's the difference between a paper proxy and a digital proxy? The main body of users on m-l use mws to test decks before spending money on them. Let me repeat that. The main body of users on m-l use mws to test decks BEFORE SPENDING MONEY ON THEM. Magic players spending money on magic cards in inevitable. A free league that lets you figure out whether or not to spend $100 on 4 cryptic commands for your kithkin deck is not only a good idea, it has helped the game become what it is today.
Just for the record, KeySam (elfball inventor I'm told?) is an active magic-leaguer.
This is SO dam true... Make it monthly fee for unlimited magic unlimited cards I am right behind you. I mean if they are SOO intent of stick to paper they could go the Yougioh rought or NEopets rough of simply having a code in one of the cards in a pack that gives you a copy of the pack online. I think that would keep both sides happy!
People who are screaming for a subscription service because they "wont pay for fake cards" do realize that even if you are paying subscription based you are still paying for fake cards... In fact every video game is fake. Deal with it. Now if the statement is I cant afford both paper and online magic then again, deal with it. I cant afford a new TV, do I complain about them not letting me have it at a price I can afford? No obv. I go about my way as a rational adult. BTW Draftguy this isnt necessarily aimed at you.
As for the guy above me, you might could argue that with apprentice but MAGIC WS makes it kind of obvious what the program is for.
And yes they can take you to court for making paper proxies(plus this is more like you printing paper proxies and then selling them.)
Magic-League in no way requires money to play there. They only got money really from donations and sponsors. So in no way is M-L capitalizing on it at all. M-L is just a group of players who play with proxies online. So from what I understand is that it's okay to shutdown this place even if it existed in RL and instead of the website used posters to keep people updated. Is that really okay to shutdown? Or is it just fine to keep it at don't put our copyrighted stuff on your web page? I prefer the second one because it protects their product and in a justified manner. The latter just tells me that they just are bullying in a grey area.
As for the guy above me, you might could argue that with apprentice but MAGIC WS makes it kind of obvious what the program is for.
Except that there is a reasonable number of players who use it for other games. The base set distributed with the game is for a game other than M:TG, and if you've ever looked on the servers that are preloaded with the game, you can find a good number of people playing VS and sometimes other games. While the program is clearly designed to piggy back off of the success of magic, it definitely isn't just a MTGO clone.
And yes they can take you to court for making paper proxies(plus this is more like you printing paper proxies and then selling them.)
There's no ground for them to take me to court for making simple proxies. When I write the name and casting cost (and P/T of creatures) on another card and use it in my deck, it's perfectly legal. And magic-league isn't selling anything, so that's also clearly irrelevant.
I think they have little to no grounds to actually permanently shut down magic-league. MWS is on shakier grounds, not because of the program itself, but because the pictures allow it to recreate the cards in accurate form which is pretty dodgy. But I'm pretty certain that if there was a program like MWS, but incapable of rendering pictures, there'd be pretty much no grounds to go after it.
Except that there is a reasonable number of players who use it for other games. The base set distributed with the game is for a game other than M:TG, and if you've ever looked on the servers that are preloaded with the game, you can find a good number of people playing VS and sometimes other games. While the program is clearly designed to piggy back off of the success of magic, it definitely isn't just a MTGO clone.
Just because the user use MWS for things other than magic does not, not make it a MTG ripoff/infringement. Kazaa was liable for users use of the program, so is MWS.
There's no ground for them to take me to court for making simple proxies. When I write the name and casting cost (and P/T of creatures) on another card and use it in my deck, it's perfectly legal. And magic-league isn't selling anything, so that's also clearly irrelevant.
I think they have little to no grounds to actually permanently shut down magic-league. MWS is on shakier grounds, not because of the program itself, but because the pictures allow it to recreate the cards in accurate form which is pretty dodgy. But I'm pretty certain that if there was a program like MWS, but incapable of rendering pictures, there'd be pretty much no grounds to go after it.
ML is supporting MWS which is what I was talking about(as far as selling goes).
Just because the user use MWS for things other than magic does not, not make it a MTG ripoff/infringement. Kazaa was liable for users use of the program, so is MWS.
Indeed, mws is liable for their users. As I said it's on shaky grounds, because it is used to recreate the magic client. But if it didn't have the ability to do pictures, it would be much closer to an emulator which is unable to run commercial games.
ML is supporting MWS which is what I was talking about(as far as selling goes).
ML uses MWS, which is not the same thing as supporting it. MWS has used other programs in the past and will use other programs in the future. It has no official relationship with MWS. You certainly can't go after on grounds of it being a commercial enterprise.
Why can't you people understand that whether m-l is actually helping Wizards is completely irrelevant? The website is totally illegal either way. If someone steals from a bank every week and keeps accidentally dropping money in front of your house on his way home that you can pick up, it is still your duty to do something about it, even if it is profitable for you.
The issue is NOT whether shutting down m-l will hurt Wizards. It definitely could, and they know that. They are not attacking m-l because they think they're losing money from it, they're attacking it because it's violating copyright law- even if Wizards is making money from it.
Except that if they were just worried about copyright law they could just grant magic league a free license. It's not the case of someone stealing from a bank, but from your house. And if you choose to give them the thing then it ceases to become stealing. It would be very easy for them to protect their copyright status and still allow for magic-league to exist. So they're definitely not going after it because they have to protect copy right law. They're going after it because they want to shut down magic-league or they want to shut down the programs that fuel magic-league.
Except that if they were just worried about copyright law they could just grant magic league a free license. It's not the case of someone stealing from a bank, but from your house. And if you choose to give them the thing then it ceases to become stealing. It would be very easy for them to protect their copyright status and still allow for magic-league to exist. So they're definitely not going after it because they have to protect copy right law. They're going after it because they want to shut down magic-league or they want to shut down the programs that fuel magic-league.
Right, they want to shut down m-l and the programs it uses because they don't want people using their property. They're attacking m-l because they want to show that they don't want people using their property.
Right, they want to shut down m-l and the programs it uses because they don't want people using their property. They're attacking m-l because they want to show that they don't want people using their property.
Yep, but it does mean that the fact that they are costing themselves real money players is relevant in the discussion, because they could easily keep magic-league around if they wanted. Your original argument seemed to be that Wizards had to do something so arguing that they were stupid for doing something was moot. But that isn't the case, so it is relevant whether or not magic-league is profitable for Wizards.
Also, is there a thread about this on the WotC forums? Would it be allowed to make one over there?
If you have the last post in a thread and need to add to it, please use the edit button instead of double posting. I have merged all of your double-posts in this thread.--Binary
While I don't agree with this act of WotC, I can understand and respect it. I just pray they don't one day shut down Magic Deck Vortex because I have a deck and art catacomb section...
If this went to court then WotC would have to prove damages and further they'd have to prove that the use of their trademarks and copyrights falls outside of fair use. Fail either and they have no case.
I want to preface my post by saying that I'm not a lawyer; I just find copyright law interesting on an "amateur" level, and I try to keep myself at least somewhat educated about it. None of this should be construed as a legal opinion or legal advice.
Both of Michael Morris's statements quoted above are incorrect. Wizards would just need to prove that there was infringement, not damages resulting from infringement, to secure a judgment against someone for violating their copyrights. Second, fair use is a defense against copyright infringement, and as such it's the responsibility of the defendant to show that his use was fair. The court would not presume that use of copyrighted material was fair and require the copyright owner to prove otherwise.
In general, I think that copyright law is pretty broken in this country. The example someone cited earlier of recording a commentary track for a film would indeed be infringing, but that sort of thing strikes me as a useful contribution, distinct from the original film, with value added. If I made the law, I'd find some way to allow this kind of use, provided it's not for commercial purposes, because I think the world would be richer for it. (Of course, I don't get to decide.)
However, I have a tough time seeing programs that simulate games of Magic as adding value. The hallmark of fair use is that it be "transformative," that the new use makes the content into something new and different. The commentary track would clearly be transformative (though it almost certainly would not be considered a fair use because of the size of content that was used). As far as the M-L case, though, it seems to me that the entire purpose of a program that simulates a game of Magic is to NOT be transformative, but rather to replicate the card names, text, and game experience in the most direct way possible so as to enable free online play. I can't see how that's a fair use.
To the idea that Wizards could legally shut down this website or Star City's website or anything like that, that would be a very different case. I think SCG would have a very strong argument that their publishing photos of cards is a fair use (or perhaps even a free and unregulated use) because the cards are collectables, they are a commercial product sold by Wizards, and SCG is in business as a retailer selling those cards. Having picture or text descriptions of products for sale should not pose any kind of copyright concerns.
As far as this website, just about all discussions of cards here is clearly for informational/educational purposes. There is a high degree of transformation involved in writing an article about the game or making a forum post about certain cards. The only areas that strike me as troubling are straight spoiler lists, especially if they contain information that's not otherwise been made available by Wizards, and the use of "mtg" in the website title. Card lists, insofar as they are compilations of copyrighted stuff, basically lack transformative value. The J.K. Rowling/Harry Potter Encyclopedia case from not too long ago involved a use that was much more transformative, and yet the trial court found it was infringing. Use of "mtg" in the website title could possibly be dilution of Wizards's trademark. Generally, though, talking about copyrighted stuff is fair use, and that's what people are doing here.
While I don't agree with this act of WotC, I can understand and respect it. I just pray they don't one day shut down Magic Deck Vortex because I have a deck and art catacomb section...
Are you pondering what I'm pondering?
I know I am.
Anyway, while they are within their rights to do this, it's still a bunch of bollocks. What we need to realise is that they could take this site down just as easily for just using the mana symbols as icons. The back of cards. If they wanted, they could all sites a new one. In the end, it's not about us. It's about them making money. And they -will- step over a few head to get them. Even if they have to bust those same heads. I feel this is indeed just a prelude to war.
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[I was permabanned and all I got to show for it was .... well, nothing.]
eah but thye can't copywrit the scripts or the code used to produce tose symbols. also in the press release they accused the league of trying to capitoliize on the game. but as previous people have stated they tak sponsor money an donations for prizes. so theres no real intent to turn a proffit hence capitiolize. it's beena while since i've read the DMCA
in order to do this thogh to show proof f enfring ment on the clients. to do this they could have to revael somdetails on the interface bu also the scoruce code.
it's kind Sad really that WOTC is lowerd itself to the RIAA an MPAA mentality.
you also got to look at the reason theuy isuu this scare tectic. WOC is hurting for money an they fell this is major threat to MTGO.
Instead of suing Wotc should be using this an an indicator or a braomiter all your going to is force that online comunity underground.
what Wotc and hasbro should do is take a hard look and possibly change it's busines model rfegarding mtgo. an ask those folks why they would intend to play the 3rd party a;ternatives. mostl likly they would find that the games too big for ther wallet to sustan at this point yousd have to turn MTGO inot a loss leader or lower the price on the product across the boad right no in this deflationary period.
if anything else hasbrao should seek 3rdparty sonsership on it's big torunies or team up with other sponsors an coperetations. for tom better prize suport or incentive.
imean worlds in ny work worked that way for abit try it ona smaller scale like a gp or a PTQ.
Infraction for repeated bad spelling/grammar. Please find a browser with a spellcheck function and start using it. --Binary
In the end, it's not about us. It's about them making money. And they -will- step over a few head to get them. Even if they have to bust those same heads. I feel this is indeed just a prelude to war.
Businesses are about making money. That is their job! In fact, as a publicly traded company, Hasbro (the dark overlords of WotC) is legally obligated to act in the best interests of its shareholders. That means that no matter how much we may like M-L - and let's admit it, most of us do - WotC must act to protect its copyright so that only they can make M:tG cards.
Otherwise, the "White Makes Right: the MagiKKK expansion" scenario I mentioned earlier could be a reality.
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Guns don't kill people. Bullets kill people. Guns just make them move really, really fast.
I wanted to say that all is not lost. I've also gotten a cease and desist letter, you can read it here, because I wrote a program that lets you play against the computer. The problem seems to be just the name "Magic League", below is taken from the cease and desist email.
"Magic-League" name and "magic-league.com" domain name further evidences your bad faith intent to capitalize on the good will associated with Wizards’ MAGIC: THE GATHERING® trademark.
Change the name to "Mage League" or something else. I only moved my project and I haven't heard from Wizards for 2 years. It seems like Wizards won't pursue you and that they probably only found out about magic-leagure.com accidentally. Sorry for all the trouble though, I feel your pain.
It's been mentioned that while there's plenty of grounds to go after M-league, the name isn't one of them. "Magic" is not copyrighted... they have a stronger case against sites like this one that use "MTG".
Game are rules generally not copyrightable. In that case the question becomes if the text box of a card is considered "games rules". The card names are certainly not copyrightable; they're too short. They may however be trademarks, but with a couple of exceptions they're probably too generic; besides I don't thing WotC has claimed trademark on card names anyway.
I think they have claimed trademark on "Planeswalker", so you might not be able to legally include any planeswalkers in your online game.
screw wotc. I play MWS because i had a MTGO account and it was banned for trading with someone who was making racist comments. I never knew about this but they believed it was a secondary account and I lost all my cards (besides that fact the names on account and credit cards names were different). Screw WOTC - never paying for magic again.
Game are rules generally not copyrightable. In that case the question becomes if the text box of a card is considered "games rules". The card names are certainly not copyrightable; they're too short. They may however be trademarks, but with a couple of exceptions they're probably too generic; besides I don't thing WotC has claimed trademark on card names anyway.
I think they have claimed trademark on "Planeswalker", so you might not be able to legally include any planeswalkers in your online game.
Umm copyrightable no.. Trademark yes... Patent eligible yes... does WOTC have those... of course they do.
I haunt the MTGO boards. This idea isn't new and is far deeper than most paper players realize and it ties into paper supply chains, paper player habits, MSRP and much more.
There's always a flaw in the plan. WotC gets full MSRP from digital boosters (3.99 per pack + tix).
Paper has bulk booster box discounts.
Why would ANYONE pay 3.99 in the store when they could just buy a bulk of boosters online, use the codes and sell the singles on ebay/local store?
Answer; they wouldn't, and all retail pack sales disappear from the MTGO store, replaced by bulk boosters from paper packs.
And before someone says: "more purchases means more money for WotC!", that's only true if those purchases equal more money to WotC, not just more product sold.
What does WotC want more:
To sell me $100 worth of 3.99 packs, or
To sell me $100 worth of 2.99 packs?
Either way, I'm spending the same amount. The former keeps less product in the market, which increases single prices. The latter puts more product in the market and decreases singe prices. High single prices sell more boosters...
The only way WotC comes out ahead is if they price the bulk product in such a way that I now have to spend $120 instead of $100. But if my spending doesn't increase, bulk selling doesn't help them, but in fact hurts them. More bulk = more cards = more supply = appeased demand = less other purchases to fill that demand = less money to WotC.
Then there's the additional suggestion of making the packs non-usable in events. That requires lots of coding and making the non-event packs easily distinguishable that they cannot be used in an event. Otherwise I'll get them and sell them to noobs who finally see that they can't be used for drafting while I'm off laughing about the sale.
If they had started doing this before MTGO took off, it may have had a chance. However, now that there's a full MTGO economy and people holding thousands and thousand and thousand of boosters that equate to real MSRP packs, I don't see this being viable by WotC to implement.
.... sorry for the off topic diatribe, but it's a topic that has a lot more history than a lot of paper players realized....
MTGO Writer and Epic Time-Waster.
If you have questions about MTGO PM me, I'm all up ons, as it were.
Check out my articles on http://puremtgo.com/ I'm the nerd you see there... wait, not that one. Nope, not that one either... yeah. That one.
Do you honestly believe you could convince someone that mws is a research tool? It's a tool for practicing a game, not digging up facts about it. Fair Use covers using copyrighted material in a purely information distribution capacity, and only if it is done in a volume small enough to not interfere with a company's business.
Example:
Showing a 10 second clip from a movie while reviewing it = legal
Showing the entire movie with a review voiceover = illegal
Which do you think is closer to what is going on here?
GUB: All Clones, All the Time EDH
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Currently playing
Legacy: Dredge, TES, SI variants
Well, yes, they can demand anything they want, but the names of magic cards are very clearly fair use--no court is going to take it seriously.
The issue is NOT whether shutting down m-l will hurt Wizards. It definitely could, and they know that. They are not attacking m-l because they think they're losing money from it, they're attacking it because it's violating copyright law- even if Wizards is making money from it.
MWS and appr are blank card engines. You download a masterbase with magic cards in it.... or WoW cards... or whatever game you load in.
Magic: The Gathering is not a movie. Its completely different because its a game, has nothing to do with showing an entire movie. The entire database of cards is available to anyone on the internet, through dozens of websites. You have to consider what is actually going on here. The website itself does not violate any copyright laws. The closest they are to doing so is advertising the site as "free online magic the gathering" -- like its a free version of MTGO, which its not.
Do you honestly believe that mws is NOT a research tool? It is a practice tool, but it also gives you valuable information you cant get anywhere else.... like how many cards cost 1WW in extended, or how many block cards have the phrase "destroy target enchantment" -- furthermore, the use of this program can produce tournament results which over time provide metagame statistics. Anyone can join one of these daily trials with 60-80 people usually, and once its done you can view every deck being played. Now, these aren't real decks worth anything. On MTGO, your faerie deck is worth something. You can trade in those cryptic commands before they rotate out of standard for something on the order of like 10 draft sets.
Wizards is afraid MWS will replace MTGO, which isnt true. MTGO gives a much bigger viewing window; there are thousands and thousands of users compared to hundreds.
Another important question is, why magic-league? Why not shut down mtgsalvation? The difference between mtgs and magic-league is that you can arrange tournament/casual play with essentially online proxies on m-l. This is not in violation of any copyright laws. Can Wizards stop you from printing out proxies and using them? Not really. What's the difference between a paper proxy and a digital proxy? The main body of users on m-l use mws to test decks before spending money on them. Let me repeat that. The main body of users on m-l use mws to test decks BEFORE SPENDING MONEY ON THEM. Magic players spending money on magic cards in inevitable. A free league that lets you figure out whether or not to spend $100 on 4 cryptic commands for your kithkin deck is not only a good idea, it has helped the game become what it is today.
Just for the record, KeySam (elfball inventor I'm told?) is an active magic-leaguer.
People who are screaming for a subscription service because they "wont pay for fake cards" do realize that even if you are paying subscription based you are still paying for fake cards... In fact every video game is fake. Deal with it. Now if the statement is I cant afford both paper and online magic then again, deal with it. I cant afford a new TV, do I complain about them not letting me have it at a price I can afford? No obv. I go about my way as a rational adult. BTW Draftguy this isnt necessarily aimed at you.
As for the guy above me, you might could argue that with apprentice but MAGIC WS makes it kind of obvious what the program is for.
And yes they can take you to court for making paper proxies(plus this is more like you printing paper proxies and then selling them.)
Yes i am the same guy who trades/sells on MOTL AND Wizards of the Coast and i trade on POJO.
Dunno:D
Except that there is a reasonable number of players who use it for other games. The base set distributed with the game is for a game other than M:TG, and if you've ever looked on the servers that are preloaded with the game, you can find a good number of people playing VS and sometimes other games. While the program is clearly designed to piggy back off of the success of magic, it definitely isn't just a MTGO clone.
There's no ground for them to take me to court for making simple proxies. When I write the name and casting cost (and P/T of creatures) on another card and use it in my deck, it's perfectly legal. And magic-league isn't selling anything, so that's also clearly irrelevant.
I think they have little to no grounds to actually permanently shut down magic-league. MWS is on shakier grounds, not because of the program itself, but because the pictures allow it to recreate the cards in accurate form which is pretty dodgy. But I'm pretty certain that if there was a program like MWS, but incapable of rendering pictures, there'd be pretty much no grounds to go after it.
Just because the user use MWS for things other than magic does not, not make it a MTG ripoff/infringement. Kazaa was liable for users use of the program, so is MWS.
ML is supporting MWS which is what I was talking about(as far as selling goes).
Yes i am the same guy who trades/sells on MOTL AND Wizards of the Coast and i trade on POJO.
Indeed, mws is liable for their users. As I said it's on shaky grounds, because it is used to recreate the magic client. But if it didn't have the ability to do pictures, it would be much closer to an emulator which is unable to run commercial games.
ML uses MWS, which is not the same thing as supporting it. MWS has used other programs in the past and will use other programs in the future. It has no official relationship with MWS. You certainly can't go after on grounds of it being a commercial enterprise.
Except that if they were just worried about copyright law they could just grant magic league a free license. It's not the case of someone stealing from a bank, but from your house. And if you choose to give them the thing then it ceases to become stealing. It would be very easy for them to protect their copyright status and still allow for magic-league to exist. So they're definitely not going after it because they have to protect copy right law. They're going after it because they want to shut down magic-league or they want to shut down the programs that fuel magic-league.
Right, they want to shut down m-l and the programs it uses because they don't want people using their property. They're attacking m-l because they want to show that they don't want people using their property.
Yep, but it does mean that the fact that they are costing themselves real money players is relevant in the discussion, because they could easily keep magic-league around if they wanted. Your original argument seemed to be that Wizards had to do something so arguing that they were stupid for doing something was moot. But that isn't the case, so it is relevant whether or not magic-league is profitable for Wizards.
Also, is there a thread about this on the WotC forums? Would it be allowed to make one over there?
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I want to preface my post by saying that I'm not a lawyer; I just find copyright law interesting on an "amateur" level, and I try to keep myself at least somewhat educated about it. None of this should be construed as a legal opinion or legal advice.
Both of Michael Morris's statements quoted above are incorrect. Wizards would just need to prove that there was infringement, not damages resulting from infringement, to secure a judgment against someone for violating their copyrights. Second, fair use is a defense against copyright infringement, and as such it's the responsibility of the defendant to show that his use was fair. The court would not presume that use of copyrighted material was fair and require the copyright owner to prove otherwise.
In general, I think that copyright law is pretty broken in this country. The example someone cited earlier of recording a commentary track for a film would indeed be infringing, but that sort of thing strikes me as a useful contribution, distinct from the original film, with value added. If I made the law, I'd find some way to allow this kind of use, provided it's not for commercial purposes, because I think the world would be richer for it. (Of course, I don't get to decide.)
However, I have a tough time seeing programs that simulate games of Magic as adding value. The hallmark of fair use is that it be "transformative," that the new use makes the content into something new and different. The commentary track would clearly be transformative (though it almost certainly would not be considered a fair use because of the size of content that was used). As far as the M-L case, though, it seems to me that the entire purpose of a program that simulates a game of Magic is to NOT be transformative, but rather to replicate the card names, text, and game experience in the most direct way possible so as to enable free online play. I can't see how that's a fair use.
To the idea that Wizards could legally shut down this website or Star City's website or anything like that, that would be a very different case. I think SCG would have a very strong argument that their publishing photos of cards is a fair use (or perhaps even a free and unregulated use) because the cards are collectables, they are a commercial product sold by Wizards, and SCG is in business as a retailer selling those cards. Having picture or text descriptions of products for sale should not pose any kind of copyright concerns.
As far as this website, just about all discussions of cards here is clearly for informational/educational purposes. There is a high degree of transformation involved in writing an article about the game or making a forum post about certain cards. The only areas that strike me as troubling are straight spoiler lists, especially if they contain information that's not otherwise been made available by Wizards, and the use of "mtg" in the website title. Card lists, insofar as they are compilations of copyrighted stuff, basically lack transformative value. The J.K. Rowling/Harry Potter Encyclopedia case from not too long ago involved a use that was much more transformative, and yet the trial court found it was infringing. Use of "mtg" in the website title could possibly be dilution of Wizards's trademark. Generally, though, talking about copyrighted stuff is fair use, and that's what people are doing here.
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Anyway, while they are within their rights to do this, it's still a bunch of bollocks. What we need to realise is that they could take this site down just as easily for just using the mana symbols as icons. The back of cards. If they wanted, they could all sites a new one. In the end, it's not about us. It's about them making money. And they -will- step over a few head to get them. Even if they have to bust those same heads. I feel this is indeed just a prelude to war.
in order to do this thogh to show proof f enfring ment on the clients. to do this they could have to revael somdetails on the interface bu also the scoruce code.
it's kind Sad really that WOTC is lowerd itself to the RIAA an MPAA mentality.
you also got to look at the reason theuy isuu this scare tectic. WOC is hurting for money an they fell this is major threat to MTGO.
Instead of suing Wotc should be using this an an indicator or a braomiter all your going to is force that online comunity underground.
what Wotc and hasbro should do is take a hard look and possibly change it's busines model rfegarding mtgo. an ask those folks why they would intend to play the 3rd party a;ternatives. mostl likly they would find that the games too big for ther wallet to sustan at this point yousd have to turn MTGO inot a loss leader or lower the price on the product across the boad right no in this deflationary period.
if anything else hasbrao should seek 3rdparty sonsership on it's big torunies or team up with other sponsors an coperetations. for tom better prize suport or incentive.
imean worlds in ny work worked that way for abit try it ona smaller scale like a gp or a PTQ.
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Businesses are about making money. That is their job! In fact, as a publicly traded company, Hasbro (the dark overlords of WotC) is legally obligated to act in the best interests of its shareholders. That means that no matter how much we may like M-L - and let's admit it, most of us do - WotC must act to protect its copyright so that only they can make M:tG cards.
Otherwise, the "White Makes Right: the MagiKKK expansion" scenario I mentioned earlier could be a reality.
Change the name to "Mage League" or something else. I only moved my project and I haven't heard from Wizards for 2 years. It seems like Wizards won't pursue you and that they probably only found out about magic-leagure.com accidentally. Sorry for all the trouble though, I feel your pain.
I think they have claimed trademark on "Planeswalker", so you might not be able to legally include any planeswalkers in your online game.
Umm copyrightable no.. Trademark yes... Patent eligible yes... does WOTC have those... of course they do.
Yes i am the same guy who trades/sells on MOTL AND Wizards of the Coast and i trade on POJO.