Why is it when we get a new card type like Planeswalker the game becomes "too complicated", but when they remove a single reactable step of combat, the game instantly becomes "Yu-Gi-Oh!".
Honestly, since 6th edition the rules have gotten VERY complicated and the whole "double sacrifice" thing was confusing many casual players.
Besides, the mogg still gets to block and ping a creature or player of your choice. That's an amazing ability. Elder can still stop damage and land hunt. Its no longer a 2 for 1...but perhaps that's what was so "yugioh" about the card. Yugioh and Pokemon weren't bad games because they were too simply. They were bad because they had no true costs associated with their non-creature spells. Cards like Bill and Pot of Greed (draw 2 cards for no cost) were undeniably bad. Worse than even Ancestral Recall (which at least has the prequisite of requiring a specific color of mana). Until they remove colored mana, magic is a superior game.
So you stay with the new rules just because you are a casual player and you don't have to obbey them anyways? i mean, do you call a DCI judge to rule your games at home with your friends?
This is just a punch to the competitive scene, i thought it was already clear, besides, it's in the competitive play where you may get paired with someone "unfun"... if you casual play with unfun people, maybe you should rethink your group of friends...
We don't call a DCI judge when we casual play, but judges at our local shop will point out misplays during our casual games and we will ask for rulings prior to actions resolving to ensure we are playing the game right. We still have fun playing our game, but we want to make sure we are playing with the correct rules. Why? Because that's what we are paying for with magic. We aren't really paying for cards: we are paying for rules and balance. We are paying for the development team that spends countless hours playtesting and rethinking our game so we can have a more diverse and fun environment to play in.
That's the difference between Magic and a dead TCG in which you can buy a box for $5 (like Wyvern). Since the game is still supported, it won't stagnate. New rules will be added to allow for more depth and complexity.
Plus, if we don't obey rules in casual we explain to everyone what rules we don't obey. It becomes a variant format and then we become rules-nazis for those new rules.
So you stay with the new rules just because you are a casual player and you don't have to obbey them anyways? i mean, do you call a DCI judge to rule your games at home with your friends?
This is just a punch to the competitive scene, i thought it was already clear, besides, it's in the competitive play where you may get paired with someone "unfun"... if you casual play with unfun people, maybe you should rethink your group of friends...
No, my point is that since these rule changes are causing the expected amount of hemming and hawing from a lot of competitive players, and those players might just "leave the game forever" (I hope many of them do), then that will in turn encourage casual players to enter into the competitive scene themselves.
Consider the following:
D-Bag Magic Elitist: OMGWTF My Siege-Gang Commander got worse?! I'M LEAVING FOREVER GOODBYE
Little Kid #1: Hey, I just heard that guy who we all hated to play against because he was a jerk and used these weird rules interactions that didn't quite make sense to us anyway quit Magic forever!
Little Kid #2: Really? Maybe I'll go to FNM this week since he won't be there.
Little Kid #1: I think I'll go too! I just hope my lifegain deck works better than last time.
Wizards Employee Who Has Cast Clairvoyance: Goooood, goooood. Everything is going exactly as planned!
Long-Time Magic Player Who Didn't Bail on MTG for Ridiculous Reasons: Wow, this PTQ sure was easy to win with a lot of the good competition gone because they couldn't just adapt! And the fact that they were replaced by younger kids just made things easier!
I see this exact situation panning out across the country in like 2-3 months.
the only horrific thing that comes form these changes is the elimination of damage on the stack.
A friend of mine says that i can open up new design space and that, possibly, good may come of it, but why the **** do we need to dumb down this great game just to have a few new cards?
this is such a horrible move by WOTC, how about you douchers do some market research before you change the rules, then see how it affects people
We don't call a DCI judge when we casual play, but judges at our local shop will point out misplays during our casual games and we will ask for rulings prior to actions resolving to ensure we are playing the game right. We still have fun playing our game, but we want to make sure we are playing with the correct rules. Why? Because that's what we are paying for with magic. We aren't really paying for cards: we are paying for rules and balance. We are paying for the development team that spends countless hours playtesting and rethinking our game so we can have a more diverse and fun environment to play in.
I'm ok with this... still you do not HAVE TO obbey the judge, as you are not playing for dci ranking, prizes or whatever, he's just a guideline... different is when you have to do things in a determined way so as to keep in the tournament.
That's the difference between Magic and a dead TCG in which you can buy a box for $5 (like Wyvern). Since the game is still supported, it won't stagnate. New rules will be added to allow for more depth and complexity.
Plus, if we don't obey rules in casual we explain to everyone what rules we don't obey. It becomes a variant format and then we become rules-nazis for those new rules.
ok then... not obbeying something you don't agree with makes you a nazi? i like to think that obbeying blindly makes you a mindless automaton... and i don't feel like being sacrificed for a card!
I can some what understand almost every change they are making except for the combat change. Decks and cards are built around tricks during the combat phase...now they are taking all that work out of the game. This change makes cards like blink and ghostfire almost usless. I just dont understand why this change had to be made.
Consider the following:
D-Bag Magic Elitist: OMGWTF My Siege-Gang Commander got worse?! I'M LEAVING FOREVER GOODBYE
Little Kid #1: Hey, I just heard that guy who we all hated to play against because he was a jerk and used these weird rules interactions that didn't quite make sense to us anyway quit Magic forever!
Little Kid #2: Really? Maybe I'll go to FNM this week since he won't be there.
Little Kid #1: I think I'll go too! I just hope my lifegain deck works better than last time.
Wizards Employee Who Has Cast Clairvoyance: Goooood, goooood. Everything is going exactly as planned!
Long-Time Magic Player Who Didn't Bail on MTG for Ridiculous Reasons: Wow, this PTQ sure was easy to win with a lot of the good competition gone because they couldn't just adapt! And the fact that they were replaced by younger kids just made things easier!
I see this exact situation panning out across the country in like 2-3 months.
and it follows like this:
random guy1: hey, this place is getting full of little kids
random guy2: yeh, we have to do something: either leave before we are called predators or shatter their expectatives turning ourself in the legendary "D-MTG game elitists" so as to kick their butts out of our space... i don't want to play with kiddos.
random guy1: right, besides, they already have yu gi oh and pokemon
random guy3: i hope they make some kind of TRAGIC: the gathering, being like magic but for grown ups.
And kids and noobs in competitive scene??? u imagine nassif playing against a 10 years old kid for the ptq finals?? it would be at least... cute
No, my point is that since these rule changes are causing the expected amount of hemming and hawing from a lot of competitive players, and those players might just "leave the game forever" (I hope many of them do), then that will in turn encourage casual players to enter into the competitive scene themselves.
Consider the following:
D-Bag Magic Elitist: OMGWTF My Siege-Gang Commander got worse?! I'M LEAVING FOREVER GOODBYE
Little Kid #1: Hey, I just heard that guy who we all hated to play against because he was a jerk and used these weird rules interactions that didn't quite make sense to us anyway quit Magic forever!
Little Kid #2: Really? Maybe I'll go to FNM this week since he won't be there.
Little Kid #1: I think I'll go too! I just hope my lifegain deck works better than last time.
Wizards Employee Who Has Cast Clairvoyance: Goooood, goooood. Everything is going exactly as planned!
Long-Time Magic Player Who Didn't Bail on MTG for Ridiculous Reasons: Wow, this PTQ sure was easy to win with a lot of the good competition gone because they couldn't just adapt! And the fact that they were replaced by younger kids just made things easier!
I see this exact situation panning out across the country in like 2-3 months.
Even if that happens, those kids become the elitist douche bags.... You realize your reactions are just as elitist. I hope tournament players leave the game, sure will make this game better having less people to play it with. Dont be ridiculous, im a very hardcore tourney player(driving ten hours to Atlanta this weekend for a 5k) and I spent a ridiculous sum of money on this game, and treat my fellow players with respect, do you really want to lose me or anyone else from the game? These changes whether you agree with them or not point out that maybe you have as poor of an attitude as the evil tournament players you speak of.... Just saying.
Yeah sorry, there are so many 30+ aged people who don't go to FNMs BECAUSE it's full of snotty 20-something douchebags who take themselves way too seriously. It goes both ways guys...
I can some what understand almost every change they are making except for the combat change. Decks and cards are built around tricks during the combat phase...now they are taking all that work out of the game. This change makes cards like blink and ghostfire almost usless. I just dont understand why this change had to be made.
I'm sorry, but Ghostfire is becoming useless? Doesn't it still kill creatures and go to the dome? Honestly, maybe I'm just playing wrong, but I think I'd rather play Ghostfire during precombat main anyway and take out a blocker so I can swing at you unblocked. Or if all you have is 4+ toughness dudes, play it after damage to finish off a creature.
And even Momentary Blinkstill has uses. Yes, it can't save your creature from damage while still killing the creature who blocked you, but it does still "counter" your opponent's kill spells, abuse CITP (or should I say ETB?) effects, and make your creatures suddenly untapped and available to block.
I'm sorry, but Ghostfire is becoming useless? Doesn't it still kill creatures and go to the dome? Honestly, maybe I'm just playing wrong, but I think I'd rather play Ghostfire during precombat main anyway and take out a blocker so I can swing at you unblocked. Or if all you have is 4+ toughness dudes, play it after damage to finish off a creature.
And even Momentary Blinkstill has uses. Yes, it can't save your creature from damage while still killing the creature who blocked you, but it does still "counter" your opponent's kill spells, abuse CITP (or should I say ETB?) effects, and make your creatures suddenly untapped and available to block.
I work as a chemistry teacher in an upper end high school. We were dismayed to see that some of our students were struggling and not even opening the book and reading it. We asked them what was wrong, and the resounding answer was that the book was too hard to read.
We then decided to make a change, and ordered new books that were easier to read. The end result was that those students wound up doing worse! This effect wasn't limited to the students who were initially struggling, but all of the students were getting lower grades.
You know what the problem was? When we ordered the easier books, the students felt that the class was easier hence they didn't have to do as much work. And the kicker to this revelation... the struggling students STILL never opened the book anyway.
How does this relate to the new rules changes? While most of them are more intuitive, and competitive players will adapt to them anyway, the players that they were originally targeting (you know, the casual players and new players) still won't learn the rules anyway. They are going to continue playing however they want. Players will still see the Llanowar Elf, and tap it to find a forest. Nothing will change in their target demographic, but the competitive players will be royally ticked.
Thank you poolguy.. yes i meant ghostway not ghost fire.
Mongoose, they are narrowing the uses of cards developed to be used on a much wider spectrum. Take mogg fanatic which everyone is talking about. it was developed as a 2 for 1 card. you block AND get in a point of damage or kill another critter. Now its an either or choice... makes the card worse not better. All because of the change. The play group I play with came up with about 50 cards off the top of our heads with no real strain that the change effects.
Sad day in magic.... going to be worse once the changes take effect.
I hate the flavor argument that people are making as far as assigning combat damage.
If you want to be flavorful about it, the way it is now, it's simple. I summoned you, and I decide how you deal damage. If you have to sacrifice yourself so that I can use another spell to kill my opponent's team after combat, you should feel honored. You don't think it makes sense? Nobody cares, you're just some summoned monster/guy, I'm the Planeswalker.
Flavor arguments are dumb. They can almost always go both ways. This change makes no sense, and was very, very obviously made to appeal to players of other games that are used to the simple(stupid) concept of 'my guy battles your guy'.
Next thing, they'll change it so that you never attack a player directly. You just attack one of their guys, and they can make their other guys 'assist' that guy in defending.
This doesn't change what Mark seems to be saying it does.
If someone tried the 'Waylay' trick it would fail because of 314.3.
I *REALLY* hope I'm missing something here, as I would be scared if the Rules Manager isn't intimately familiar with the rules.
So What am I missing?
From the 5/1/09 Comp Rules:
314. Cleanup Step 314.1. If the active player’s hand contains more cards than his or her maximum hand size (normally seven), he or she discards enough cards to reduce the hand size to that number (this game action doesn’t use the stack).
314.2. After discarding, the following actions happen simultaneously: all damage is removed from permanents and all “until end of turn” and “this turn” effects end (this game action doesn’t use the stack).
314.3. If the conditions for any state-based effects exist or if any triggered abilities are waiting to be put onto the stack, the active player gets priority and players may play spells and abilities. Once the stack is empty and all players pass, another cleanup step begins. Otherwise, no player receives priority and the step ends.
Edt: Combat is annoyingly simplified, I am a huge fan of Wishes so I dislike 'Exile', 'Battlefield' is the wrong word as it would indicate there is nothing but red zone and since spells are now 'Cast' the overlap of wording is gone. Overall not as bad as Planewalkers or Mythic Rares, and I'm still spending my money, so...
I have a feeling that some of these changes may be revoked at the Zendikar or M11 release. I can't imagine much support for these, and the TO's and Judges I've talked to today seemed peeved that they're going to have to start correcting the long-time "precise" players for now playing the old "smart" way. What intelligent player doesn't spread damage or sac with damage on the stack. It's just sad. I'll adjust as a player, but I think it's the wrong direction and Wizards is setting a double standard. Didn't Wizards just claim a short while ago that the core set would no longer just be about the beginners and were going to gear it towards all players?
Didn't they try dumbing Magic down before? That was called Portal. Maybe they are trying to make Magic more like Portal, because they couldn't sell two games next to eachother?
ohh, thats so obvious
americans are just too fukcking DUMB to understand current rules so theyre making them easier, so that magic wasnt much more difficult than eating hamburgers
Yes, that's it. You are correct, only Americans (the people that create the game) are ever confused by anything regarding the current rules, so they changed them to make it easier for us specifically.
I'm as unhappy about the changes being made as you are, but please try not to sound so ignorant, especially with your first post.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
New Rules come out for 1999 6th Edition... "THEY'RE TURNING MAGIC INTO PORTAL! THE GAME IS RUINED! EVERYONE PETITION AND GET THEM TO CHANGE IT BACK!"
New Rules come out for 2010 Edition... "THEY'RE TURNING MAGIC INTO YU-GI-OH! THE GAME IS RUINED! EVERYONE PETITION AND GET THEM TO CHANGE IT BACK!"
New Rules come out for *Reserved for something in 2020* "THEY'RE TURNING MAGIC INTO *currently "simple" game by the more "skilled" players*! THE GAME IS..." etc.
Well, it'll be interesting to see how the new stackless combat works with Banding & Ninjutsu...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Decks I'm working on:
:symb::symu: Gravy Boat
:symu::symg: PickleStorm 2.0
:symr::symu::symb: You Have To Follow The Ruels
Scryb-Death
Man-Pudding FTW!
:symu::symr::symg: Hot, Wet Meat
Pull My Finkle
Tight Clams Aggro
Randy Buehler's Day Off
:symu::symb: Naughty Uncle
:symw::symb: We'll get rid of it at the prom (Tempo)
:symr::symr: Bloody Beaver
:symu::symr::symw::symb::symg: 5-Color Cockfight
wow so much has been written and I'm sure much more is on the way.
my 2 cents - from a causal rookie who sort of plays in a bubble. (started playing in ernest a little over a year ago - Xmas before MT prerelease)
I don't want to waste too much time describing my background but i've been a gamer of one type or another for over a quarter of a century.
I love MTG and have spent a decent amount of time and money in the last 15 or so months on this game of which obviously many of us love and enjoy playing. i have tried to read and understand the announced changes (with the help of the Forsythe/Gottlieb article and the postings in this forum) to come with the release of M10 and beyond.
onto my point - i must say, whether i agree or understand with some or all of the new changes, these are not my over all problem with WoTC. I feel part of the problem for the causal or newbie player is the lack of current support info or resources that are not overwhelmingly difficult to comprehend or are incomplete.
the Keywords pdf at the official MTG site is outdated and needs to include more definitions.
the basic rulebook is also outdated and should at least be updated with each new block release.
the individual FAQs help but still could be more defined and should in some instances include more individual card answers.
the comprehensive rules are often daunting. no one is printing this out and bringing it to a casual game of Magic.
i don't want to add fuel to the fire that the game needs to be dumbed down. i enjoy looking up things in the basic rulebook, the FAQs & the comprehensives along with asking rule questions in the forums. however when i have to spend time to look up something and still can't find a reasonable answer that is frustrating. much less getting an obnoxious answer from some forum know it all. Magic is often a strangely written/worded and complex game.
a perfect example of my confusion was at the ARB prerelease. Cascade as written on the card as opposed to what is written in the more official rule texts. the omission of the word "library" on the cards is significant to me.
Cascade as written on cards; Cascade (When you play this spell, remove cards from the top of your library from the game until you remove a nonland card that costs less. You may play it without paying its mana cost. Put the removed cards on the bottom in a random order.)
FAQ definition; 502.85a Cascade is a triggered ability that functions only while the spell with cascade is on the stack. "Cascade" means "When you play this spell, remove cards from the top of your library from the game until you remove a nonland card whose converted mana cost is less than this spell's converted mana cost. You may play that card without paying its mana cost. Then put all cards removed from the game this way that weren't played on the bottom of your library in a random order."
if i just read the card for the first time i don't know where the heck I'm putting the removed cards. Is it in the removed from play pile or the graveyard or library???
a small example of what i think is the bigger picture problem. overall a little too much confusion. by now more should have already been clearly written explaining the stack, priority and how they function together. The combat explanation in the basic rulebook is extremely lacking.
PERHAPS there should be a more non competitive environment - this is where a different set of rules would apply. i repeat, i don't want to dumb it down, i just want WoTC to explain it better. don't be afraid to separate the casual from the competitive.
Thank you poolguy.. yes i meant ghostway not ghost fire.
Mongoose, they are narrowing the uses of cards developed to be used on a much wider spectrum. Take mogg fanatic which everyone is talking about. it was developed as a 2 for 1 card. you block AND get in a point of damage or kill another critter. Now its an either or choice... makes the card worse not better. All because of the change. The play group I play with came up with about 50 cards off the top of our heads with no real strain that the change effects.
Sad day in magic.... going to be worse once the changes take effect.
My apologies regarding Ghostfire. I forgot all about Ghostway's existence.
As for the Mogg Fanatic argument, which everybody is indeed talking about, didn't Mark and Aaron specifically mention in the article that the Fanatic was printed pre-6ED rules revision, when damage didn't stack? Copy-pasted straight from the article:
Or, if you prefer, it returns Mogg Fanatic to its original functionality. Combat damage didn't use the stack when Tempest was released.
I agree that the Fanatic will be worse now, but doesn't that make the Fanatic a poor choice of cards to argue this point?
My apologies regarding Ghostfire. I forgot all about Ghostway's existence.
As for the Mogg Fanatic argument, which everybody is indeed talking about, didn't Mark and Aaron specifically mention in the article that the Fanatic was printed pre-6ED rules revision, when damage didn't stack? Copy-pasted straight from the article:
I agree that the Fanatic will be worse now, but doesn't that make the Fanatic a poor choice of cards to argue this point?
Honestly, since 6th edition the rules have gotten VERY complicated and the whole "double sacrifice" thing was confusing many casual players.
Besides, the mogg still gets to block and ping a creature or player of your choice. That's an amazing ability. Elder can still stop damage and land hunt. Its no longer a 2 for 1...but perhaps that's what was so "yugioh" about the card. Yugioh and Pokemon weren't bad games because they were too simply. They were bad because they had no true costs associated with their non-creature spells. Cards like Bill and Pot of Greed (draw 2 cards for no cost) were undeniably bad. Worse than even Ancestral Recall (which at least has the prequisite of requiring a specific color of mana). Until they remove colored mana, magic is a superior game.
Custom Set: Pokemon: Generation 1
My mind numbing DC-10 stack!
We don't call a DCI judge when we casual play, but judges at our local shop will point out misplays during our casual games and we will ask for rulings prior to actions resolving to ensure we are playing the game right. We still have fun playing our game, but we want to make sure we are playing with the correct rules. Why? Because that's what we are paying for with magic. We aren't really paying for cards: we are paying for rules and balance. We are paying for the development team that spends countless hours playtesting and rethinking our game so we can have a more diverse and fun environment to play in.
That's the difference between Magic and a dead TCG in which you can buy a box for $5 (like Wyvern). Since the game is still supported, it won't stagnate. New rules will be added to allow for more depth and complexity.
Plus, if we don't obey rules in casual we explain to everyone what rules we don't obey. It becomes a variant format and then we become rules-nazis for those new rules.
Custom Set: Pokemon: Generation 1
My mind numbing DC-10 stack!
No, my point is that since these rule changes are causing the expected amount of hemming and hawing from a lot of competitive players, and those players might just "leave the game forever" (I hope many of them do), then that will in turn encourage casual players to enter into the competitive scene themselves.
Consider the following:
D-Bag Magic Elitist: OMGWTF My Siege-Gang Commander got worse?! I'M LEAVING FOREVER GOODBYE
Little Kid #1: Hey, I just heard that guy who we all hated to play against because he was a jerk and used these weird rules interactions that didn't quite make sense to us anyway quit Magic forever!
Little Kid #2: Really? Maybe I'll go to FNM this week since he won't be there.
Little Kid #1: I think I'll go too! I just hope my lifegain deck works better than last time.
Wizards Employee Who Has Cast Clairvoyance: Goooood, goooood. Everything is going exactly as planned!
Long-Time Magic Player Who Didn't Bail on MTG for Ridiculous Reasons: Wow, this PTQ sure was easy to win with a lot of the good competition gone because they couldn't just adapt! And the fact that they were replaced by younger kids just made things easier!
I see this exact situation panning out across the country in like 2-3 months.
A friend of mine says that i can open up new design space and that, possibly, good may come of it, but why the **** do we need to dumb down this great game just to have a few new cards?
this is such a horrible move by WOTC, how about you douchers do some market research before you change the rules, then see how it affects people
Warning for censor evasion.--Binary
I'm ok with this... still you do not HAVE TO obbey the judge, as you are not playing for dci ranking, prizes or whatever, he's just a guideline... different is when you have to do things in a determined way so as to keep in the tournament.
More complexity? sure about that??
ok then... not obbeying something you don't agree with makes you a nazi? i like to think that obbeying blindly makes you a mindless automaton... and i don't feel like being sacrificed for a card!
M10 Rule changes hater.
and it follows like this:
random guy1: hey, this place is getting full of little kids
random guy2: yeh, we have to do something: either leave before we are called predators or shatter their expectatives turning ourself in the legendary "D-MTG game elitists" so as to kick their butts out of our space... i don't want to play with kiddos.
random guy1: right, besides, they already have yu gi oh and pokemon
random guy3: i hope they make some kind of TRAGIC: the gathering, being like magic but for grown ups.
And kids and noobs in competitive scene??? u imagine nassif playing against a 10 years old kid for the ptq finals?? it would be at least... cute
M10 Rule changes hater.
Even if that happens, those kids become the elitist douche bags.... You realize your reactions are just as elitist. I hope tournament players leave the game, sure will make this game better having less people to play it with. Dont be ridiculous, im a very hardcore tourney player(driving ten hours to Atlanta this weekend for a 5k) and I spent a ridiculous sum of money on this game, and treat my fellow players with respect, do you really want to lose me or anyone else from the game? These changes whether you agree with them or not point out that maybe you have as poor of an attitude as the evil tournament players you speak of.... Just saying.
Yes i am the same guy who trades/sells on MOTL AND Wizards of the Coast and i trade on POJO.
I'm sorry, but Ghostfire is becoming useless? Doesn't it still kill creatures and go to the dome? Honestly, maybe I'm just playing wrong, but I think I'd rather play Ghostfire during precombat main anyway and take out a blocker so I can swing at you unblocked. Or if all you have is 4+ toughness dudes, play it after damage to finish off a creature.
And even Momentary Blinkstill has uses. Yes, it can't save your creature from damage while still killing the creature who blocked you, but it does still "counter" your opponent's kill spells, abuse CITP (or should I say ETB?) effects, and make your creatures suddenly untapped and available to block.
he meant ghost away.(the dissension one)
Yes i am the same guy who trades/sells on MOTL AND Wizards of the Coast and i trade on POJO.
You may choose in what order to do it, so you could do 2(lethal), 2(lethal), 1 or even 3(lethal), 2(lethal),0.
But, yes, you understand the gist that the blockers rule change results in.
CHECK OUT MY HAVE/WANTS!
Current Decks:
I work as a chemistry teacher in an upper end high school. We were dismayed to see that some of our students were struggling and not even opening the book and reading it. We asked them what was wrong, and the resounding answer was that the book was too hard to read.
We then decided to make a change, and ordered new books that were easier to read. The end result was that those students wound up doing worse! This effect wasn't limited to the students who were initially struggling, but all of the students were getting lower grades.
You know what the problem was? When we ordered the easier books, the students felt that the class was easier hence they didn't have to do as much work. And the kicker to this revelation... the struggling students STILL never opened the book anyway.
How does this relate to the new rules changes? While most of them are more intuitive, and competitive players will adapt to them anyway, the players that they were originally targeting (you know, the casual players and new players) still won't learn the rules anyway. They are going to continue playing however they want. Players will still see the Llanowar Elf, and tap it to find a forest. Nothing will change in their target demographic, but the competitive players will be royally ticked.
Mongoose, they are narrowing the uses of cards developed to be used on a much wider spectrum. Take mogg fanatic which everyone is talking about. it was developed as a 2 for 1 card. you block AND get in a point of damage or kill another critter. Now its an either or choice... makes the card worse not better. All because of the change. The play group I play with came up with about 50 cards off the top of our heads with no real strain that the change effects.
Sad day in magic.... going to be worse once the changes take effect.
If you want to be flavorful about it, the way it is now, it's simple. I summoned you, and I decide how you deal damage. If you have to sacrifice yourself so that I can use another spell to kill my opponent's team after combat, you should feel honored. You don't think it makes sense? Nobody cares, you're just some summoned monster/guy, I'm the Planeswalker.
Flavor arguments are dumb. They can almost always go both ways. This change makes no sense, and was very, very obviously made to appeal to players of other games that are used to the simple(stupid) concept of 'my guy battles your guy'.
Next thing, they'll change it so that you never attack a player directly. You just attack one of their guys, and they can make their other guys 'assist' that guy in defending.
Blahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/give-stacked-combat-damage-a-chance
And on facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/group.php?gid=90142288004&ref=mf
CHECK OUT MY HAVE/WANTS!
Current Decks:
If someone tried the 'Waylay' trick it would fail because of 314.3.
I *REALLY* hope I'm missing something here, as I would be scared if the Rules Manager isn't intimately familiar with the rules.
So What am I missing?
From the 5/1/09 Comp Rules:
314. Cleanup Step
314.1. If the active player’s hand contains more cards than his or her maximum hand size (normally seven), he or she discards enough cards to reduce the hand size to that number (this game action doesn’t use the stack).
314.2. After discarding, the following actions happen simultaneously: all damage is removed from permanents and all “until end of turn” and “this turn” effects end (this game action doesn’t use the stack).
314.3. If the conditions for any state-based effects exist or if any triggered abilities are waiting to be put onto the stack, the active player gets priority and players may play spells and abilities. Once the stack is empty and all players pass, another cleanup step begins. Otherwise, no player receives priority and the step ends.
Edt: Combat is annoyingly simplified, I am a huge fan of Wishes so I dislike 'Exile', 'Battlefield' is the wrong word as it would indicate there is nothing but red zone and since spells are now 'Cast' the overlap of wording is gone. Overall not as bad as Planewalkers or Mythic Rares, and I'm still spending my money, so...
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
Yes, that's it. You are correct, only Americans (the people that create the game) are ever confused by anything regarding the current rules, so they changed them to make it easier for us specifically.
I'm as unhappy about the changes being made as you are, but please try not to sound so ignorant, especially with your first post.
:symb::symu: Gravy Boat
:symu::symg: PickleStorm 2.0
:symr::symu::symb: You Have To Follow The Ruels
Scryb-Death
Man-Pudding FTW!
:symu::symr::symg: Hot, Wet Meat
Pull My Finkle
Tight Clams Aggro
Randy Buehler's Day Off
:symu::symb: Naughty Uncle
:symw::symb: We'll get rid of it at the prom (Tempo)
:symr::symr: Bloody Beaver
:symu::symr::symw::symb::symg: 5-Color Cockfight
my 2 cents - from a causal rookie who sort of plays in a bubble. (started playing in ernest a little over a year ago - Xmas before MT prerelease)
I don't want to waste too much time describing my background but i've been a gamer of one type or another for over a quarter of a century.
I love MTG and have spent a decent amount of time and money in the last 15 or so months on this game of which obviously many of us love and enjoy playing. i have tried to read and understand the announced changes (with the help of the Forsythe/Gottlieb article and the postings in this forum) to come with the release of M10 and beyond.
onto my point - i must say, whether i agree or understand with some or all of the new changes, these are not my over all problem with WoTC. I feel part of the problem for the causal or newbie player is the lack of current support info or resources that are not overwhelmingly difficult to comprehend or are incomplete.
the Keywords pdf at the official MTG site is outdated and needs to include more definitions.
the basic rulebook is also outdated and should at least be updated with each new block release.
the individual FAQs help but still could be more defined and should in some instances include more individual card answers.
the comprehensive rules are often daunting. no one is printing this out and bringing it to a casual game of Magic.
i don't want to add fuel to the fire that the game needs to be dumbed down. i enjoy looking up things in the basic rulebook, the FAQs & the comprehensives along with asking rule questions in the forums. however when i have to spend time to look up something and still can't find a reasonable answer that is frustrating. much less getting an obnoxious answer from some forum know it all. Magic is often a strangely written/worded and complex game.
a perfect example of my confusion was at the ARB prerelease. Cascade as written on the card as opposed to what is written in the more official rule texts. the omission of the word "library" on the cards is significant to me.
Cascade as written on cards; Cascade (When you play this spell, remove cards from the top of your library from the game until you remove a nonland card that costs less. You may play it without paying its mana cost. Put the removed cards on the bottom in a random order.)
FAQ definition; 502.85a Cascade is a triggered ability that functions only while the spell with cascade is on the stack. "Cascade" means "When you play this spell, remove cards from the top of your library from the game until you remove a nonland card whose converted mana cost is less than this spell's converted mana cost. You may play that card without paying its mana cost. Then put all cards removed from the game this way that weren't played on the bottom of your library in a random order."
if i just read the card for the first time i don't know where the heck I'm putting the removed cards. Is it in the removed from play pile or the graveyard or library???
a small example of what i think is the bigger picture problem. overall a little too much confusion. by now more should have already been clearly written explaining the stack, priority and how they function together. The combat explanation in the basic rulebook is extremely lacking.
PERHAPS there should be a more non competitive environment - this is where a different set of rules would apply. i repeat, i don't want to dumb it down, i just want WoTC to explain it better. don't be afraid to separate the casual from the competitive.
thanks for reading this long post.
My apologies regarding Ghostfire. I forgot all about Ghostway's existence.
As for the Mogg Fanatic argument, which everybody is indeed talking about, didn't Mark and Aaron specifically mention in the article that the Fanatic was printed pre-6ED rules revision, when damage didn't stack? Copy-pasted straight from the article:
I agree that the Fanatic will be worse now, but doesn't that make the Fanatic a poor choice of cards to argue this point?
insert any creature with a sac ability....
Yes i am the same guy who trades/sells on MOTL AND Wizards of the Coast and i trade on POJO.