What store was it that your buddy owned? I assume its in the Philly region since thats the prerelease you mentioned. Just curious because I haven't heard of many stores closing shop in the area, and of those that did, Magic Prereleases were definitely not a primary reason for closing.
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I'm not sure it'll kill the big pre-releases. Most of the players who go to the big pre-releases in Brisbane seem to really enjoy the huge numbers of people and the experience. I'm not sure that a smaller pre-release set up by a store could compete. The only thing it will do is cut down on people travelling large distances to big events, the stores in their smaller towns/cities should be able to do good pre-releases. The big pre-release's can still be done but run by a store and held in a bigger location.
He probably took into account how much he could have received had he run the entire prerelease by himself.
Then thats a ridiculous idea. Whining because youve been in the business a few years and arent a PTO is pathetic if thats where the figure came from... i still await an answer from OP.
Really? Can he explain that number? Or provide any proof?
It sounds like he's wildly exaggerating and guessing. Store owners like that with their hypothetical, dubious figures are the reason for this change, and they're in for a shock when they realize that their speculation doesn't match reality at all.
I wouldn't be holding my breath for the proof behind this statement. I mean, first of all, the claim is that this local store closed down because it lost 4 weekends worth of revenue over the course of a year. 4 weekends do not make or break a store... Also, earning $6000 a weekend? Really? Wow, so that store must've earned $6000 x 52 weeks = $312,000 in a year. Again, a store making this amount of money wouldn't go under from 4 weekends of lost revenue. It also would be the most profitable CCG store ever. Certainly not one that would be upset about losing out to 4 big prereleases a year. These numbers just plain don't make sense.
Lots of people continue to make statements along the lines of "There's no reason that the big prereleases can't continue." But none of these people have actually addressed the issue of how the TOs will be able to make a living do these. The fact is, they have higher overhead (compared to the local stores) associated with renting a venue and getting the proper staff/judges. They were able to throw these big PEs in the past because of WOTC subsidizing the product. WOTC is no longer doing this, so all of a sudden they have to buy product from WOTC the same way the local stores are. How is this going to be profitable for the TOs? Unfortunately, it's not... And when it's not, they will eventually stop throwing them. I'd love to hear from the pro-local store prerelease people how the finances work out for the TOs to continue with the big PEs. I don't think they have an answer, but continue to simply ignore this fact.
Also, I'm still amazed that people can look at this set of changes that WOTC is proposing and believe that this really stems from their attempts to answer player demands. They make an announcement that they are no longer going to give out free product to organizers for prereleases, and instead will force TOs and local stores to instead buy product from them, and somehow people believe that WOTC is doing them a favor? All because these people happen to fall in the minority that will have an easier time getting to the prereleases that will now be in their local stores... Yes, WOTC is officially using the "more accessible" argument to justify their changes. But it's naive to believe that they're doing this in response to player requests. Instead, this is about them making more money by selling product, rather than giving it away. Besides, if this were about making more players happy, then they would be listening instead to the greater number of players who are actually AGAINST this move.
actually tos have the bigger overhead if you rent a vaneu at a hotel or a con center you you just have to worry about the cost for reserving the room
now with local sotres you gotta factor in stuff like rent,ebt machines web/comtelco services
ingilbert i know their rent on a suit in ther civic center strip mall for just a small to medium sized suit is over $12k a month then you hav product costa payroll and all th other stuff stated above
also you have to send pics to wotc and if you want to sart a direct account with wotc you have to place an initial order of $5000 thats alot of porduct.
most retailers get ther product through a middle man distro like edgeman games aliance gaming talkin sports ect you know wholesalers so is wotc really helping the retailers if anything it helps more of the wholsalers who the independants buy from
then thers the slav-mart an targetteir kmart an even some grocery chians
im supises the bookstore folks like barns an nobole an borders havn't gotten into it or starbucks
Infraction issued for repeated bad spelling and grammar. Please, at the very least, start sentences with capital letters and end them with punctuation. --Binary
actually tos have the bigger overhead if you rent a vaneu at a hotel or a con center you you just have to worry about the cost for reserving the room
now with local sotres you gotta factor in stuff like rent,ebt machines web/comtelco services
ingilbert i know their rent on a suit in ther civic center strip mall for just a small to medium sized suit is over $12k a month then you hav product costa payroll and all th other stuff stated above
also you have to send pics to wotc and if you want to sart a direct account with wotc you have to place an initial order of $5000 thats alot of porduct.
most retailers get ther product through a middle man distro like edgeman games aliance gaming talkin sports ect you know wholesalers so is wotc really helping the retailers if anything it helps more of the wholsalers who the independants buy from
then thers the slav-mart an targetteir kmart an even some grocery chians
im supises the bookstore folks like barns an nobole an borders havn't gotten into it or starbucks
WOTC has NO minumum order for starting up with them as a retailer(I just got on board with them a few months ago) so not sure where/who that came from. As far as the rest of it if they are in a mall where rent is 12 grand then they should b making a decent amount of money otherwise they need to find a better place.... that rents nuts... As most medium sized malls/strips shoot for 15-25 a sq. foot per YEAR, 12K means that person is paying around 3-4 times the going rate for a mall... that person deserves to go out of business.... Or they arent being honest, or they are making ungodly gobs of money
I think he means D&D. It took me a little bit to figure out what he was talking about, too.
As of today, 8 days before the Eventide prerelease, there is still no info on the Pastimes site. I know they just updated it today (or last night) with a statement that they've been having server issues, but those of us planning on attending in Indy and Illinois really need to know what's going on so we can plan accordingly.
Hi my name is John. i am a lvl 0 judge and I am also the youngest MTG judge in IL at the age of 17 (next closest being 19 i believe) and here is how i feel about some of the changes:
One the first note, i like the fact that pre-releases will be held 1 week before release date. That dead week between set release and pre-release was torture in previous years.
On the second part, i am outraged that stores can now run pre-releases. I live in IL so pastimes runs our pre-release and Indy's and despite living an hour from pastime's store itself, i have never had to drive more than an hour to a pre-release since darksteel. Wizards tries to justify this by saying: "We will be recruiting locations very soon to bring both gaming opportunities right to your door." But at what cost? I know the TO at pastimes and he is extraordinarily dedicated to his job, but with theses changes, pastimes and every other main TO in every state will no longer get their product at a discounted price.
A fellow judge Bernd Buldtcouldn't have phrased it better when he said: "It's just a brutal move to make one group happy at the expense of another, hoping that the grass root initiative will secure the survival of Magic in a changing world."
This change will make the local stores happy, the trade off being that the TOs who have been running these pre-releases for years get screwed over and stepped on. My biggest curiosity is if this was a WOTC decision or if Hasbro had a hand in this. I like the idea of mythic rares about as much as i like the idea of adding purple to the color wheel (and i hate purple). Well, there is my two cents.
The assumption is that enough people will prefer to go to a local pre-release that sufficient support for the large but distant ones will dry out.
Of course, you'd think if people are preferring the local pre-releases... this would be what the majority wants.
Maybe (if this forum is any indication) most players will want to go to the big prerelease, if only to support the TOs, or to give a nice gesture to Wizards. Maybe if the "normal" prereleases do well enough, Wizards will cancel this garbage.
I think he means D&D. It took me a little bit to figure out what he was talking about, too.
As of today, 8 days before the Eventide prerelease, there is still no info on the Pastimes site. I know they just updated it today (or last night) with a statement that they've been having server issues, but those of us planning on attending in Indy and Illinois really need to know what's going on so we can plan accordingly.
ive called them a couple days ago and they havent rented somewhere to have this yet i guess...
I'm coming back into magic and I guess Pastimes doesnt run it out of their giant store in niles or wherever.
BUT, about this topic.. i can see this helping and hurting.. i see this good for casual players that just dont want to go to a giant prerelease and want to have a smaller more intimate one at their local store. I think the majority of us are still going to end up going to that one promoter or organizer who had previously put on the larger events for us.
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I'm a casual player and enjoy Large Prereleases, lets you meet new people and see new things, rather than the same base over and over which kinda gets boring, but then again Auckland being a small city in NZ means that I'm really just seeing everyone in Auckland who plays MTG.
If Kresh had more than 3 toughness, I'd say he'd see play too. But 5 mana for a 3/3 makes him so vulnerable to basic removal that its really not a great investment. I know everything dies, but not everything dies equally
All of the PRs I've attended in the past have been run by Professional Events, towards whom I have grown rather indifferent based on my experiences at those events. They get the job done, but neither particularly well nor poorly. Personally, I'm interested to see what the new smaller PRs will be like before I favor either the old or the new.
ive called them a couple days ago and they havent rented somewhere to have this yet i guess...
I'm coming back into magic and I guess Pastimes doesnt run it out of their giant store in niles or wherever.
BUT, about this topic.. i can see this helping and hurting.. i see this good for casual players that just dont want to go to a giant prerelease and want to have a smaller more intimate one at their local store. I think the majority of us are still going to end up going to that one promoter or organizer who had previously put on the larger events for us.
That's discouraging.
Pastimes usually holds their Indy events at the Indiana Convention Center. If they haven't secured that, there must be a reason (other events going on most likely).
I hope they figure something out, and quickly. We're only six days away now.
try calling pastimes and checking the website. Indy is going to held at the indianpolis convention center while IL is going to be held at the dupage expo center in St. Charles.
I checked out the site but there's nothing on there about the prerelease as of right now. But thanks for the update. I imagine there will be something posted on the site tomorrow.
Pastimes has now officailly posted the pre-release locations for IL nad IN. They did have the locations set since regionals but never had the chance to post it.
So, what exactly is so bad about this? I'm not quite sure I follow why this news is being taken with such negativity; what does this even change in the first place? From what I can tell, the large prereleases will still take place...
So, what exactly is so bad about this? I'm not quite sure I follow why this news is being taken with such negativity; what does this even change in the first place? From what I can tell, the large prereleases will still take place...
Read through the whole thread... You will see links to TOs that are clearly stating that they will NOT take place any longer. Why? The reasons are clearly outlined throughout this thread. It changes everything... Wizards is taking the profits for themselves, so it will be financially impossible to throw big events at any sort of reasonable profit. If you are one of those people who hated the big events, then no, there is nothing bad about this. But for the majority of people who love the big events, it looks like the end unless something changes. Enjoy this weekend while you can...
So, what exactly is so bad about this? I'm not quite sure I follow why this news is being taken with such negativity; what does this even change in the first place? From what I can tell, the large prereleases will still take place...
So in basic English, wizards no longer give discounts to the big tournament organizers. Stores hold own pre-releases, people who live closer to store go to pre-release there instead of big place. Eventually, the TO's no longer make money and stop holding big pre-release. In conclusion, those big group gatherings that many of us love, will be over. And like pawsox says, many of the TOs arn't even waiting to see how Shards of ALara plays out.
I gotta say...this really hurts people like me. People who can't muster the time/etc. to play some MtG but enjoy going to the Prerelease and/or Release tournaments to experience a new set and meet some old friends. At a PR, the scale is absolutely EPIC---and WoTC pretty much gave me the finger. Unfortunately, I don't think I can enjoy this last one either because my 2HG partner's on vacation. Dammitimo.
So, what exactly is so bad about this? I'm not quite sure I follow why this news is being taken with such negativity; what does this even change in the first place? From what I can tell, the large prereleases will still take place...
Yes, I've been to basically all the prereleases since Darksteel. I had no idea why prereleases now being part of the Wizard's Play Network thing would now stop all the large prereleases, until you guys explained it to me. (Why would you assume I hadn't been to any PRs before?)
Yes, I've been to basically all the prereleases since Darksteel. I had no idea why prereleases now being part of the Wizard's Play Network thing would now stop all the large prereleases, until you guys explained it to me. (Why would you assume I hadn't been to any PRs before?)
Because of the way you replied, you didn't seem to understand how pre-releases have been run in the past, and how this will affect the future...
Yeah, I didn't understand everything about it. I just went to them and had fun, not knowing exactly how it all worked. And now, I didn't understand why the changes would shut down the large events, until it was explained. The websites didn't mention stopping the large PRs, so I assumed it would be the same.
Well here's the thing. Wizards didn't shut down the PR. They just took away all profit and about any incentive for the TOs of running a huge event. So without actually saying it, wizards says you can run the big pre-release, but now, no free product for prizes, and you have to compete with any store that wants to jump in.
What store was it that your buddy owned? I assume its in the Philly region since thats the prerelease you mentioned. Just curious because I haven't heard of many stores closing shop in the area, and of those that did, Magic Prereleases were definitely not a primary reason for closing.
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Then thats a ridiculous idea. Whining because youve been in the business a few years and arent a PTO is pathetic if thats where the figure came from... i still await an answer from OP.
Yes i am the same guy who trades/sells on MOTL AND Wizards of the Coast and i trade on POJO.
I wouldn't be holding my breath for the proof behind this statement. I mean, first of all, the claim is that this local store closed down because it lost 4 weekends worth of revenue over the course of a year. 4 weekends do not make or break a store... Also, earning $6000 a weekend? Really? Wow, so that store must've earned $6000 x 52 weeks = $312,000 in a year. Again, a store making this amount of money wouldn't go under from 4 weekends of lost revenue. It also would be the most profitable CCG store ever. Certainly not one that would be upset about losing out to 4 big prereleases a year. These numbers just plain don't make sense.
Lots of people continue to make statements along the lines of "There's no reason that the big prereleases can't continue." But none of these people have actually addressed the issue of how the TOs will be able to make a living do these. The fact is, they have higher overhead (compared to the local stores) associated with renting a venue and getting the proper staff/judges. They were able to throw these big PEs in the past because of WOTC subsidizing the product. WOTC is no longer doing this, so all of a sudden they have to buy product from WOTC the same way the local stores are. How is this going to be profitable for the TOs? Unfortunately, it's not... And when it's not, they will eventually stop throwing them. I'd love to hear from the pro-local store prerelease people how the finances work out for the TOs to continue with the big PEs. I don't think they have an answer, but continue to simply ignore this fact.
Also, I'm still amazed that people can look at this set of changes that WOTC is proposing and believe that this really stems from their attempts to answer player demands. They make an announcement that they are no longer going to give out free product to organizers for prereleases, and instead will force TOs and local stores to instead buy product from them, and somehow people believe that WOTC is doing them a favor? All because these people happen to fall in the minority that will have an easier time getting to the prereleases that will now be in their local stores... Yes, WOTC is officially using the "more accessible" argument to justify their changes. But it's naive to believe that they're doing this in response to player requests. Instead, this is about them making more money by selling product, rather than giving it away. Besides, if this were about making more players happy, then they would be listening instead to the greater number of players who are actually AGAINST this move.
now with local sotres you gotta factor in stuff like rent,ebt machines web/comtelco services
ingilbert i know their rent on a suit in ther civic center strip mall for just a small to medium sized suit is over $12k a month then you hav product costa payroll and all th other stuff stated above
also you have to send pics to wotc and if you want to sart a direct account with wotc you have to place an initial order of $5000 thats alot of porduct.
most retailers get ther product through a middle man distro like edgeman games aliance gaming talkin sports ect you know wholesalers so is wotc really helping the retailers if anything it helps more of the wholsalers who the independants buy from
then thers the slav-mart an targetteir kmart an even some grocery chians
im supises the bookstore folks like barns an nobole an borders havn't gotten into it or starbucks
Infraction issued for repeated bad spelling and grammar. Please, at the very least, start sentences with capital letters and end them with punctuation. --Binary
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WOTC has NO minumum order for starting up with them as a retailer(I just got on board with them a few months ago) so not sure where/who that came from. As far as the rest of it if they are in a mall where rent is 12 grand then they should b making a decent amount of money otherwise they need to find a better place.... that rents nuts... As most medium sized malls/strips shoot for 15-25 a sq. foot per YEAR, 12K means that person is paying around 3-4 times the going rate for a mall... that person deserves to go out of business.... Or they arent being honest, or they are making ungodly gobs of money
Yes i am the same guy who trades/sells on MOTL AND Wizards of the Coast and i trade on POJO.
I think he means D&D. It took me a little bit to figure out what he was talking about, too.
As of today, 8 days before the Eventide prerelease, there is still no info on the Pastimes site. I know they just updated it today (or last night) with a statement that they've been having server issues, but those of us planning on attending in Indy and Illinois really need to know what's going on so we can plan accordingly.
One the first note, i like the fact that pre-releases will be held 1 week before release date. That dead week between set release and pre-release was torture in previous years.
On the second part, i am outraged that stores can now run pre-releases. I live in IL so pastimes runs our pre-release and Indy's and despite living an hour from pastime's store itself, i have never had to drive more than an hour to a pre-release since darksteel. Wizards tries to justify this by saying: "We will be recruiting locations very soon to bring both gaming opportunities right to your door." But at what cost? I know the TO at pastimes and he is extraordinarily dedicated to his job, but with theses changes, pastimes and every other main TO in every state will no longer get their product at a discounted price.
A fellow judge Bernd Buldt couldn't have phrased it better when he said: "It's just a brutal move to make one group happy at the expense of another, hoping that the grass root initiative will secure the survival of Magic in a changing world."
This change will make the local stores happy, the trade off being that the TOs who have been running these pre-releases for years get screwed over and stepped on. My biggest curiosity is if this was a WOTC decision or if Hasbro had a hand in this. I like the idea of mythic rares about as much as i like the idea of adding purple to the color wheel (and i hate purple). Well, there is my two cents.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Maybe (if this forum is any indication) most players will want to go to the big prerelease, if only to support the TOs, or to give a nice gesture to Wizards. Maybe if the "normal" prereleases do well enough, Wizards will cancel this garbage.
I sense a movement taking place somewhere...
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ive called them a couple days ago and they havent rented somewhere to have this yet i guess...
I'm coming back into magic and I guess Pastimes doesnt run it out of their giant store in niles or wherever.
BUT, about this topic.. i can see this helping and hurting.. i see this good for casual players that just dont want to go to a giant prerelease and want to have a smaller more intimate one at their local store. I think the majority of us are still going to end up going to that one promoter or organizer who had previously put on the larger events for us.
I keep trying to escape from the past.
But those days used to mean so much.
We stood side by side and nothing else mattered.
We were straightedge and at least I still am."
[/quote]
That's discouraging.
Pastimes usually holds their Indy events at the Indiana Convention Center. If they haven't secured that, there must be a reason (other events going on most likely).
I hope they figure something out, and quickly. We're only six days away now.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
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Read through the whole thread... You will see links to TOs that are clearly stating that they will NOT take place any longer. Why? The reasons are clearly outlined throughout this thread. It changes everything... Wizards is taking the profits for themselves, so it will be financially impossible to throw big events at any sort of reasonable profit. If you are one of those people who hated the big events, then no, there is nothing bad about this. But for the majority of people who love the big events, it looks like the end unless something changes. Enjoy this weekend while you can...
So in basic English, wizards no longer give discounts to the big tournament organizers. Stores hold own pre-releases, people who live closer to store go to pre-release there instead of big place. Eventually, the TO's no longer make money and stop holding big pre-release. In conclusion, those big group gatherings that many of us love, will be over. And like pawsox says, many of the TOs arn't even waiting to see how Shards of ALara plays out.
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Have you ever been to a PR?
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Because of the way you replied, you didn't seem to understand how pre-releases have been run in the past, and how this will affect the future...
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Thanks to Aether for this banner.
Creating a fantasy epic:Come join us!
The GJ way path to no lynching: