Anyone who claims the recent changes will turn Magic into Yu-Gi-Oh does not know what they are talking about. The reason Yu-Gi-Oh Ultra-Rares are so expensive is because they always put the chase rares in those slots, and they do not have Magic's robust resource management system to keep such overpowered cards in check. Yu-Gi-Oh Ultra rares are expensive because they are basically souped up, strictly superior cards. With Magic, expect to see cards like Firemane Angel and Arcanis the Omnipotent in this slot, the sort of big splashy card that has an awesome effect, but are hardly format-defining.
WotC R&D knows they are making a different game. They know how to identify the staple cards, and they know that a healthy environment needs easy access to those cards. That's why they said they will keep the staple cards in the standard rare slot. The new changes will even increase access to such cards in the future. Sure, they may misjudge a card every once in a while (Jitte happens); but that will likely be the exception, not the rule.
Yeah R&D do a great job... jitte, dragonstorm, goyf... Things they think will be amazing(hyppie, jaya ballard, etc) suck.... nice calls...
With the people being scared that cards will exceed $30...well cards exceed that anyway....for eg, Goyf isnt mythic but is going for $40-$50...and uncommons like Force of Will go for $25....so i really doubt mythic rare will impact the prices too much.
The day that you quit magic is bcos it gets repetative....no one quits bcos of the intuitive changes.....
Can you name a standard-legal card, other than Tarmogoyf, that's broken the $30 ceiling? Because I sure can't, and ultra-rares will. Force of Will is expensive because it's an older, out-of-print card.
It's funny you mention Force of Will, though. Back in the older sets, rarities worked differently. The smaller sets came in 8 card packs (for $1.50 instead of the $2.50 for the 15-card packs) and only had uncommons and commons. However, the uncommons had different rarities. Some were called U3's, while others were U1's; you were three times as likely to get a U3 as a U1 in each of those uncommon slots. (Incidentally, IIRC, that held for commons as well, so a C3 was more common than a C1. Also, Force of Will was a U1 -- while it was "uncommon", it was as rare as anything in that set could be.)
People hated that rarity system. People hated that some rares were harder to get than others. Everyone I know was delighted when the modern rarity system was put into place (around Mirage, I think.) And now MaRo claims they're changing the rarity system because that's what modern games do? It's a naked money grab and the players will hate it. End of story.
I can not believe the amount of butthurt over this. Just because it bears a passing resemblance to something they do in Yu-Gi-Oh! does not mean that Magic is becoming Yu-Gi-Oh!. The art is going to be in the same style, the card names are going to be in the same style, the gameplay is going to be exactly the same. Try and think rationally for a change.
You all hate Magic now and will quit over the changes? Good. More Alara for me.
Can you name a standard-legal card, other than Tarmogoyf, that's broken the $30 ceiling? Because I sure can't, and ultra-rares will. Force of Will is expensive because it's an older, out-of-print card.
There may not be at this moment, but there have been in the past, and will continue to be in the future. Or many other previous $20+ rares that would be $30 rares if boosters cost as much as they do now.
It's funny you mention Force of Will, though. Back in the older sets, rarities worked differently. The smaller sets came in 8 card packs (for $1.50 instead of the $2.50 for the 15-card packs) and only had uncommons and commons. However, the uncommons had different rarities. Some were called U3's, while others were U1's; you were three times as likely to get a U3 as a U1 in each of those uncommon slots. (Incidentally, IIRC, that held for commons as well, so a C3 was more common than a C1. Also, Force of Will was a U1 -- while it was "uncommon", it was as rare as anything in that set could be.)
This is not true. Well, it is true that the Alliance rarity system was completely screwed up, much of that on the back of alternate art, but Alliance had actual rares, and Force of Will was not one. See here.
Basically, it all boils down to what cards end up getting put at the mythic rarity. I think it would be stupid to think there will never be chase mythics, since Wizards doesn't have perfect information about how good all the cards will actually be. However, I think it would be stupid of Wizards to put all the chase rares at mythic, since they will be killing the lower levels of competitive constructed play by doing that. Basically, I'm taking a "wait and see" stance, as this seems like it all boils down to their execution of it.
I don't think the mythic rares are going to simply be for overpowered cards. I think they will be mainly cards that are part of the sets flavor. Planewalkers are obvious, and probably legendary creatures. They do make a mention that the mythic rares will probably not be the chase rares that are tournaments best cards.
This now leads us to the next question: How are cards split between rare and mythic rare? Or more to the point, what kind of cards are going to become mythic rares? We want the flavor of mythic rare to be something that feels very special and unique. Generally speaking we expect that to mean cards like Planeswalkers, most legends, and epic-feeling creatures and spells. They will not just be a list of each set's most powerful tournament-level cards.
Other than Goyf, the majority of the $20+ cards I can think of have been staple cards of some sort (Thoughtseize, Mutavault, quality mana-fixing lands), the sort that everyone needed a playset of. The sort of cards they are saying will not be Mythic. Those cards are really easy to ID in development, so I feel pretty confidant in their ability to avoid putting them there.
Yeah, there could be a chase rare or two that hits that slot, but it shouldn't happen that often. On those few times it does, no one is going to make you buy them. Do you need 4 Goyf's or 4 Bitterblossoms to be competitive in Standard right now? Of course not. Look at Quick n' Toast, which is looking quite promising despite eschewing Goyf, Thoughtsieze, Bitterblossom, and Garruk. There are plenty of decks that are competive without rely on the highest tier rares.
Anyway, we can whine about it all day long, unfortunately it won't change a damn thing...
I think it's obvious that whining won't change the content of the next expansion, but Wizards is apparently at least moderately receptive to feedback.
I don't mind any of the changed except for the "mythic rare" issue. That seems like an obvious attempt to gouge certain people and seems remarkably conducive to retaining players. A complaint that I have seen since I started playing 13 or so years ago is the "some rich kid can buy all the good cards..." issue.
Of course, Magic is a money-intensive game, so this kind of complaint is fundamentally true at a certain level.
But Magic has never really had that problem to the extent that scads of other TCGs have. I also played the Dragonball Z card game for a while, as the mechanics were absolutely perfect for a "beat 'em up" style of game. the game just felt good to play.
Then, I got to a tournament and ran a gauntlet of decks piloted by so-so players that were filled to the brim with crazy rares that I had never even heard of that wiped the floor with me.
Foils, I think, are a perfect means to capture the "ultra rare" appreciating segment of the player base, along with the occasional handouts (like that Demonic Tutor that I saw...?)
That kind of rarity can make any moderately dedicated player salivate and want more without interfering so obliviously with the value of already chase rares. Cosmetics is where the rarity should be varied and premiums can be thrown around without any harm to the playability of the game. Card mechanics though should not be messed with where rarity is concerned, I think.
This now leads us to the next question: How are cards split between rare and mythic rare? Or more to the point, what kind of cards are going to become mythic rares? We want the flavor of mythic rare to be something that feels very special and unique. Generally speaking we expect that to mean cards like Planeswalkers, most legends, and epic-feeling creatures and spells. They will not just be a list of each set's most powerful tournament-level cards.
That's only slightly mollifying. First of all, this means that Doran and Garruk would have been Mythic. How much more expensive would they be? New Planeswalkers will be as well? On the plus side, most of the legends and planeswalkers you only need 3 of for your deck. But let's look at some popular cards that could be mythic now.
Isamaru, Hound of Konda
Doran the Siege Tower
Garruk Wildspeaker
The Command cycle
Pendelhaven
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
More to the point, this definitely turns off some of the Timmies, whose big splashy spells are now very hard to get...
Don't new players just buy tournament packs and then have a bunch of land, or ask the guy who introduced them to Magic for 100 basic lands of each type?
As per Mythic Rare, I agree that it seems a bad idea for limited play, particularly the planeswalker. On the whole, I'm not fond of the planeswalker cards we already have since they tend to swing the game heavily with just one card. If that card is extra-super-deluxe rare, it makes you feel all the more screwed by chance when it single-handedly wins the game against you. Sure, you feel all fuzzy & neat when you open it - but the five people you play against are irritated.
Even if the mystic rares aren't the bombs of the set, and instead just the "cool" cards...guess what? I like the cool cards. What are we defining as "cool", after all? Johnny cards instead of Spike? Or are these just the Timmy giants? If the mythic rares are picked for a certain quality to become mythic, they will be making a certain demographic's favorite cards seven times more difficult to obtain (despite protests of math to the contrary, since you're after a certain type of card rather than a specific name). If mythic rares are not picked for a certain quality...than what makes them mythic? Pretty much, to have a point, they have to shaft someone.
And honestly, who believes that they won't be the chase bomb rares? I mean, we're leading with a planeswalker, after all. As I noted above, I believe those to be not so much powerful as game defining.
I don't think this will kill Magic, but I'm less than confident that it was a good idea.
Why can't Wizards understand that doesn't work for MtG? MtG is a playing game and not a collecting game. We need our cards.
You may have inadvertently proved MaRo's point. This was intended to be a Collectable Card Game. The fact that you say explicitly that it is not shows that WotC has failed in at least part of its branding.
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Guns don't kill people. Bullets kill people. Guns just make them move really, really fast.
As someone who played yu-gi-oh these changes feel like an attempt to copy them...
-Mythic Rare
-Intro Decks (I don't think anyone mentioned that Yu-gi-oh does this), even the premium card in the front is a blatant rip-off of Yu-gi-oh.
Lorwyn/Shadowmoor already took a step in this direction-
Kiddy art
Staple Cards (Mutavault, Bitterblossom, etc.)
Some realizations-
-At least one chase card per set will be Mythic! It will be really expensive!
-Unless they cut down on the fluff/chaff the standard environment will become more homogenous. BOOOO!
-The reason they are making MTG more like Yu-gi-oh is to make the transition from that game to this one less painful/challenging.
Yu-gi-oh is aweful and I cannot support any change that makes MTG anything other then superficially similer!
@RayZorback: Yes, all rares have the same rarity currently.
Can you name a standard-legal card, other than Tarmogoyf, that's broken the $30 ceiling? Because I sure can't, and ultra-rares will. Force of Will is expensive because it's an older, out-of-print card.
It's funny you mention Force of Will, though. Back in the older sets, rarities worked differently. The smaller sets came in 8 card packs (for $1.50 instead of the $2.50 for the 15-card packs) and only had uncommons and commons. However, the uncommons had different rarities. Some were called U3's, while others were U1's; you were three times as likely to get a U3 as a U1 in each of those uncommon slots. (Incidentally, IIRC, that held for commons as well, so a C3 was more common than a C1. Also, Force of Will was a U1 -- while it was "uncommon", it was as rare as anything in that set could be.)
People hated that rarity system. People hated that some rares were harder to get than others. Everyone I know was delighted when the modern rarity system was put into place (around Mirage, I think.) And now MaRo claims they're changing the rarity system because that's what modern games do? It's a naked money grab and the players will hate it. End of story.
Well, depends which currency you deal with. i'm in Oz and currently mutavaults are hitting $30...blossoms are also heading that way.
You're just trying to pick at technicalities.....more over to the point i'm trying to make, card value is NOT dependant on its rarity. I'll give another example that you can appreciate -> kitchen finks is worth more than deep-slumber titan, although the titan is rarer.
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I am NOT the girl in my avatar. Stop hitting on me. I'm a dude, just like you!
There may not be at this moment, but there have been in the past, and will continue to be in the future. Or many other previous $20+ rares that would be $30 rares if boosters cost as much as they do now.
This is not true. Well, it is true that the Alliance rarity system was completely screwed up, much of that on the back of alternate art, but Alliance had actual rares, and Force of Will was not one. See here.
I stand corrected. In my defense, I got out just before Alliances hit, and didn't get back in until Ravnica block. I was misinformed by one of my friends who kept playing through that time.
Basically, it all boils down to what cards end up getting put at the mythic rarity. I think it would be stupid to think there will never be chase mythics, since Wizards doesn't have perfect information about how good all the cards will actually be. However, I think it would be stupid of Wizards to put all the chase rares at mythic, since they will be killing the lower levels of competitive constructed play by doing that. Basically, I'm taking a "wait and see" stance, as this seems like it all boils down to their execution of it.
Right -- they won't put all of the chase rares at mythic. But you can bet your bottom dollar that they'll put some there, at least one per set. And, in a sense, the mythic rares are automatically going to be chase rares, since everyone knows they're going to be 2-3 times rarer than "normal" rares.
Honestly, I just don't like the flavor of it. I know the idea is to drive sales, and it will, because dealers in the secondary market will have to open up significantly more boxes to get singles of the mythic rares. It won't stop the dedicated tournament players, who've shown they're willing to drop $50 apiece on individual cards for their tournament decks. It's going to hurt the casual players mostly, and I find that tremendously annoying.
I've thought for a while they should introduce something similar to a mythic rare -- maybe one per box -- of reprints of a lot of the old power cards.
I know I'd be tempted to buy cards by the box if it meant I might get a dual land or even a piece of jewelry along with it. But the idea of a higher rarity for newly-printed cards is completely bogus.
Well, depends which currency you deal with. i'm in Oz and currently mutavaults are hitting $30...blossoms are also heading that way.
You're just trying to pick at technicalities.....more over to the point i'm trying to make, card value is NOT dependant on its rarity. I'll give another example that you can appreciate -> kitchen finks is worth more than deep-slumber titan, although the titan is rarer.
Yeah, just learned today that Mutavaults have apparently spiked to $40 apiece since last weekend here in the States and Bitterblossoms are around $30. I blame the price jump on people stocking up for Block constructed, but it's happening regardless of the cause.
I'm not picking at technicalities, I'm fundamentally disagreeing with you. Card price IS dependent on rarity. Yes, Kitchen Finks costs more than Deep-Slumber Titan. Disregarding the Titan entirely, would you agree that Kitchen Finks would cost more than it currently does if it were a rare instead of an uncommon? (If not, I'd love to hear some justification!)
Char, for example, was a $12-15 card in its day. Flame Javelin is its modern day equivalent, but at uncommon instead of rare, and runs $3-4. I can't prove it, certainly, but I don't think it's unreasonable to speculate that Flame Javelin, if rare, would be in the $12-15 range.
Similarly, Garruk, as a rare, costs about $20. If he were a Mythic rare, with (roughly) half the chance of getting one in a pack, he'd probably be about $40. I will all but guarantee you that this is the logic that will guide the pricing in the secondary market.
Good cards will always be in demand, which drives up their price relative to other cards of that rarity. If you increase the scarcity of a good (in this case, by giving a card a higher rarity) while holding demand constant, its price will increase commensurately.
Good cards will always be in demand, which drives up their price relative to other cards of that rarity. If you increase the scarcity of a good (in this case, by giving a card a higher rarity) while holding demand constant, its price will increase commensurately.
Hold on, i think u've shot off on a tangent a tad. BUT just to be fair, i agree with the statement that "if finks were rare it would be worth a little more". bcos its jumping up a completely different class. jumping from uncommon to rare is a bigger jump than from rare to mythic.
In short, i dont think any card will hit $30 unless it was utterly retarded like goyf and blossom.....ie, if that new red green planeswalker is as powerful as garruk, he would still be around the $20 mark. Of Course in saying, we have to wait 1 month after the release to allow time for the hype to settle.
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I am NOT the girl in my avatar. Stop hitting on me. I'm a dude, just like you!
Ok after everyone read the announcement you probably called every one you knew who ever played magic ranted, raved and read the article again. The reasoning behind a mythic rare is simple as gas prices. If you buy it at $2 you will at $3 and guess what $4 is around the corner (most players will not quit becuase of the change and new players will not care untill the time comes for ultra super purple rare.)
I am upset at the fact the first set has 15 so lets do the math any good card you want 4 of ok that puts us at 60 cards at 1 per 8 packs roughly 4 a box you have to buy 480 packs about 13 boxes for a chance at playsets of them all.
Do not really care about the pre cons i stopped buying them long ago anyway.
The booster pack who cares about the extra land it will work out to this "draft players open the pack, take out the basic land put it in pile or set it to the side now make your first pick and pass the pack." It just takes place of a 15th pick plus with a smaller set size we should get better cards anyway.
The fat pack not having the novel i will never buy these again no point in it cheaper to just buy a die or counter at a store and some tournment packs.
But as all things time will tell and with evening tide around the corner it will basically be a who cares set with everyone now waiting for shards wil all the changes and Planeswalkers
Let me be one of the voices that support the change.
To begin with the less controversial things;
Basic lands in boosters
You have to take WotC's shoes here, the question is "If more new players are coming, how could we provide them the basic lands?" and seriously this is one of the possible answers. In places where no other products with basic lands are sold, the unused lands from the packs could still be collected and distributed. Basic lands are provided in fat packs, which not many people are buying and not available in most new stores, tournament pack, which could be even more scarce than the fat packs. This might not be the most ideal solution, but the other alternative is new stores are deprived of basic lands.
For drafters, the loss of 3 commons could be compensated simply by slightly upping the overall playability of the commons in the set. That would drive the number of playable picks higher and the loss of 3 cards wouldn't affect the overall power level of drafting.
Intro decks
Suits the right target more than precon, 'nuff said.
Reducing the number of cards per year
Great decision that would benefit both them and us. Less number of cards generally equals less number of craps. In a world with abundant of cards there could be a lot of craps and the constructed scene would still function. In a world with less card however, too many craps means the constructed scene is more docile and less exciting. And I think it's a fact that "Less craps = Happier players"
Now for the real deal
Mythic rares
If you read carefully in MaRo's article, there was a message that really impressed me. It was "Some rares could afford to be rarer and some rares should be more common." Now this is something I call insight. Categorizing cards into different rarities allow you to make better fine adjustment on how often they appear. I think many people had done the math and the number are known, but the summary is as follow;
Big sets: Rares 132% as common than current rares, mythic rares 64% as common as current rares
Small sets: Rares 125% as common than current rares, mythic rare 62.5% as common as current rares
The thing is now they could choose the utility cards to be more common and specific cards to be more rares. After a set is released the market is in a chaos and some cards are more expensive than they should be. But once the dust settles the result is mostly the same every time, the utility rares keep its value and the specific rares plummet. Being 25% more common equals 20% cheaper price and being 36% less common equals 50% more expensive price in theory. The bottom line is, are you happy with the world where Mutavaults are 20% cheaper and Doran is 50% more expensive? I do.
Now there might be some chase rares in the mythic rare slots and the price would skyrocket soon after the set's release, but that's not the market at its equilibrium, it's the market with overhyped demands. Once the dust setlles and more copies of the card come out to satisfy the demand, the price would go down, because those mythic rares are meant to be more specific and hence fit only with certain archetypes.
Take a look at the example of Doran when it first came out and it got hyped by its success in Worlds and various extended tournaments. Once the market reached the equilibrium, due to its very specific nature, the price came down.
Mythic rares as money-making scheme
Before I address this issue, let me tell you one fact: Contracted sets without any other changes would cause less packs to be sold, that's obvious enough. So mythic rares are there to eek out more money, not to make more money than before, but to make more money to compensate the less packs sold due to sets becoming smaller. So in the end, smaller sets benefit the general community, and mythic rare is there to make sure the profit margin stays the same. It's a trade-off, but surely a trade-off that I'm happy with.
Of course there are many conditions WotC would have to fulfill in order to eek out the best of these changes, but these changes are for good as I explained. Even if it turn out to be a failure, these changes aren't bad ideas as many of you have speculated, they're good ideas with bad implementation.
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Below are things the Magic R&D would have to do the get the best out of these changes
1. Make sure the utility cards are in the rare slots and not mythic rare slots. Failure to do this would result in a must-play mythic rare with overwhleming price and frustrated players.
2. If a card could be both mythic and utility, put them in the utility slots. For example, Lorwyn's commands could be wither utility or mythic. Same reason as number 1.
3. Make sure they create a new balance of power for the commons to ensure consistent limited environment.
4. Having too many 'I win the draft' mythic rares would hurt the game due to more chance more roll of luck.
5. Make sure there are less junk rares because having more junk rares in a contracted set simply screw up the constructed environment.
Mythic rares dont bother me they are just going to be legends and planeswalkers and the ilk. I do not really like the land in the booster pack deal, but i deal with it. I would however rather that land be a foil land than not, The new intro packs are quite cool, I mean who takes a precon to a tournament anyway and wins with one? (with exception to rats nest which had a jitte) Less cards in a set means more chances to get that great rare like a bitterblossom or goyf. (Although i bought an arse load of morningtide and pulled not nary a one blossom or clossous)
I'm so not happy with the Mythic Rare thing. It's retarded. Magic players everywhere love that we don't have the 8 levels of rarity (or whatever it is in Yu-Gi-Oh!). Maybe it won't be too bad since I also play a little bit of Naruto, and it has two levels of rare (rare and ultra rare, but it's really easy to tell the difference). But why make a huge change like that after 15 years? It makes no sense to me. Mythic rares are also going to wind up raising the prices of the really good cards. Wasn't the whole "Wizards Play Network" thing supposed to changing to help out NEW players? "Here Johnny, it's a decent deck for you to play in your first tournament. It's easy to play, explains all the rules fairly well. But be careful, it only cost $1,000 to put it together." So Wizards is going to implement the restriction that keeps players out of Vintage (way too expensive) on TYPE 2!?!?! GAH!!!!
And, really, putting a basic land in with each pack - even in the expert expansions? That, in and of itself, doesn't bother me, if they just added a 16th card to each pack, and you could take it out when drafting. But taking out a common to do it instead? Not really happy with this one either.
The smaller sets doesn't really make me that happy either. I play Vintage, so I like having tons of options. MaRo was saying that part of the reason of the smaller sizes was so any one random deck can't necessarily win a major tournament. Isn't that one of THE definitions of a healthy format? Because I might not want to play Elves, Faeries, Doran, Reveillark or Fish this weekend, but Random.dec, why should I not get a fair shot at the Nationals invite? In all fairness, I usually net deck anyways since I'm mostly a Spike, but it almost never fails that round 1 of a major tournament, I play something that's way out there, and it's a lot of fun playing against it. The only reason this Standard environment is any fun is because of all the options we have.
The sets better be really good, cause the last block that was actually fun to play was Kamigawa. Give me my three levels of rarity (common, uncommon, rare), get rid of that stupid basic land and give me my 11 commons back and give me my set sizes back! :argh::mad:
Ok... yes I know the Mythic Rare idea sounds like Yu-Gi-Oh. However, when you actually think about there are several advantages. Heres the main one:
Ok, just about everyone complained with Thoughtseize at rare right? Well with the Mythic Rare rarity added, Thoughtseize and all other regular rares costs go down! In addition, Mark Rosewater said in his article that wizards will NOT print tournament staples and support cards at Mythic Rare. Mythic Rare will be a bunch of Timmy-Spike cards (like the planeswalekrs) with lots of flavor and coolness. The elevation of these cards cost will sigficantly decrease the cost of other rares in the set. In other words, the cost of (the next) Simic Sky Swallower goes up the cost of (the next) Thoughseize goes down. Despite sounding like a terrible idea at first, it's not that bad when you think about it.
The only part of this change that bugs me is the less cards per set. I hate that idea! With only a tiny percentage of cards seeing play in even standard and block, decreasing the number avaliable is a terrible plan.
Ok Maro can say that but i bet you thier will be some it makes sense not to have something good in these slots to try and get a mythic. Just wait till a spoiler hits in the next few months and one of the mythics is a sweet land or something tarmo like.
Last time i checked Maro is human gas prices are not going down and you never beleive the goverment so why do should we take his word for granite. I also think this was the guy who said they would never print a legend in a core set.
Everytime Wotc makes what people consider to be a big change, or a change that shakes things up from what they have done for so many years in the past, people always claim it will be the end of magic. The reality is, through all the changes, magic is still here and is still the #1 ccg as it has been for ages. The reality is, games that remain stagnant, eventually will lose popularity over time, and thus magic has to change, even if its #1 to make sure it continues to grow and prosper. And as someone mentioned, they do have to protect their bottom line, if they print smaller sets, they needed something to balance out, to make sure they still continued to sell as many boxes and what not and continue to allow them to grow the business. Because in the end, this is all a business, and if they aren't making money, then we wouldnt have a fun game to play.
Give it some time, If we get to January of 2009 and things are as bad as people think, maybe then, but I doubt itll happen.
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Yeah R&D do a great job... jitte, dragonstorm, goyf... Things they think will be amazing(hyppie, jaya ballard, etc) suck.... nice calls...
Yes i am the same guy who trades/sells on MOTL AND Wizards of the Coast and i trade on POJO.
Can you name a standard-legal card, other than Tarmogoyf, that's broken the $30 ceiling? Because I sure can't, and ultra-rares will. Force of Will is expensive because it's an older, out-of-print card.
It's funny you mention Force of Will, though. Back in the older sets, rarities worked differently. The smaller sets came in 8 card packs (for $1.50 instead of the $2.50 for the 15-card packs) and only had uncommons and commons. However, the uncommons had different rarities. Some were called U3's, while others were U1's; you were three times as likely to get a U3 as a U1 in each of those uncommon slots. (Incidentally, IIRC, that held for commons as well, so a C3 was more common than a C1. Also, Force of Will was a U1 -- while it was "uncommon", it was as rare as anything in that set could be.)
People hated that rarity system. People hated that some rares were harder to get than others. Everyone I know was delighted when the modern rarity system was put into place (around Mirage, I think.) And now MaRo claims they're changing the rarity system because that's what modern games do? It's a naked money grab and the players will hate it. End of story.
You all hate Magic now and will quit over the changes? Good. More Alara for me.
This is not true. Well, it is true that the Alliance rarity system was completely screwed up, much of that on the back of alternate art, but Alliance had actual rares, and Force of Will was not one. See here.
Basically, it all boils down to what cards end up getting put at the mythic rarity. I think it would be stupid to think there will never be chase mythics, since Wizards doesn't have perfect information about how good all the cards will actually be. However, I think it would be stupid of Wizards to put all the chase rares at mythic, since they will be killing the lower levels of competitive constructed play by doing that. Basically, I'm taking a "wait and see" stance, as this seems like it all boils down to their execution of it.
Oh, and this needs to be posted in every thread where people are complaining about something new:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=500
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WWWMono-White ControlWWW
This now leads us to the next question: How are cards split between rare and mythic rare? Or more to the point, what kind of cards are going to become mythic rares? We want the flavor of mythic rare to be something that feels very special and unique. Generally speaking we expect that to mean cards like Planeswalkers, most legends, and epic-feeling creatures and spells. They will not just be a list of each set's most powerful tournament-level cards.
Current Decks
Standard
WWWMono-White ControlWWW
Yeah, there could be a chase rare or two that hits that slot, but it shouldn't happen that often. On those few times it does, no one is going to make you buy them. Do you need 4 Goyf's or 4 Bitterblossoms to be competitive in Standard right now? Of course not. Look at Quick n' Toast, which is looking quite promising despite eschewing Goyf, Thoughtsieze, Bitterblossom, and Garruk. There are plenty of decks that are competive without rely on the highest tier rares.
Great link. Gotta love hindsight, huh?
GUB: All Clones, All the Time EDH
GU: Amulet Combo MODERN
I think it's obvious that whining won't change the content of the next expansion, but Wizards is apparently at least moderately receptive to feedback.
I don't mind any of the changed except for the "mythic rare" issue. That seems like an obvious attempt to gouge certain people and seems remarkably conducive to retaining players. A complaint that I have seen since I started playing 13 or so years ago is the "some rich kid can buy all the good cards..." issue.
Of course, Magic is a money-intensive game, so this kind of complaint is fundamentally true at a certain level.
But Magic has never really had that problem to the extent that scads of other TCGs have. I also played the Dragonball Z card game for a while, as the mechanics were absolutely perfect for a "beat 'em up" style of game. the game just felt good to play.
Then, I got to a tournament and ran a gauntlet of decks piloted by so-so players that were filled to the brim with crazy rares that I had never even heard of that wiped the floor with me.
Foils, I think, are a perfect means to capture the "ultra rare" appreciating segment of the player base, along with the occasional handouts (like that Demonic Tutor that I saw...?)
That kind of rarity can make any moderately dedicated player salivate and want more without interfering so obliviously with the value of already chase rares. Cosmetics is where the rarity should be varied and premiums can be thrown around without any harm to the playability of the game. Card mechanics though should not be messed with where rarity is concerned, I think.
That's only slightly mollifying. First of all, this means that Doran and Garruk would have been Mythic. How much more expensive would they be? New Planeswalkers will be as well? On the plus side, most of the legends and planeswalkers you only need 3 of for your deck. But let's look at some popular cards that could be mythic now.
Isamaru, Hound of Konda
Doran the Siege Tower
Garruk Wildspeaker
The Command cycle
Pendelhaven
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
More to the point, this definitely turns off some of the Timmies, whose big splashy spells are now very hard to get...
You should read them.
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen"
As per Mythic Rare, I agree that it seems a bad idea for limited play, particularly the planeswalker. On the whole, I'm not fond of the planeswalker cards we already have since they tend to swing the game heavily with just one card. If that card is extra-super-deluxe rare, it makes you feel all the more screwed by chance when it single-handedly wins the game against you. Sure, you feel all fuzzy & neat when you open it - but the five people you play against are irritated.
Even if the mystic rares aren't the bombs of the set, and instead just the "cool" cards...guess what? I like the cool cards. What are we defining as "cool", after all? Johnny cards instead of Spike? Or are these just the Timmy giants? If the mythic rares are picked for a certain quality to become mythic, they will be making a certain demographic's favorite cards seven times more difficult to obtain (despite protests of math to the contrary, since you're after a certain type of card rather than a specific name). If mythic rares are not picked for a certain quality...than what makes them mythic? Pretty much, to have a point, they have to shaft someone.
And honestly, who believes that they won't be the chase bomb rares? I mean, we're leading with a planeswalker, after all. As I noted above, I believe those to be not so much powerful as game defining.
I don't think this will kill Magic, but I'm less than confident that it was a good idea.
You may have inadvertently proved MaRo's point. This was intended to be a Collectable Card Game. The fact that you say explicitly that it is not shows that WotC has failed in at least part of its branding.
-Mythic Rare
-Intro Decks (I don't think anyone mentioned that Yu-gi-oh does this), even the premium card in the front is a blatant rip-off of Yu-gi-oh.
Lorwyn/Shadowmoor already took a step in this direction-
Kiddy art
Staple Cards (Mutavault, Bitterblossom, etc.)
Some realizations-
-At least one chase card per set will be Mythic! It will be really expensive!
-Unless they cut down on the fluff/chaff the standard environment will become more homogenous. BOOOO!
-The reason they are making MTG more like Yu-gi-oh is to make the transition from that game to this one less painful/challenging.
Yu-gi-oh is aweful and I cannot support any change that makes MTG anything other then superficially similer!
Well, depends which currency you deal with. i'm in Oz and currently mutavaults are hitting $30...blossoms are also heading that way.
You're just trying to pick at technicalities.....more over to the point i'm trying to make, card value is NOT dependant on its rarity. I'll give another example that you can appreciate -> kitchen finks is worth more than deep-slumber titan, although the titan is rarer.
I stand corrected. In my defense, I got out just before Alliances hit, and didn't get back in until Ravnica block. I was misinformed by one of my friends who kept playing through that time.
Right -- they won't put all of the chase rares at mythic. But you can bet your bottom dollar that they'll put some there, at least one per set. And, in a sense, the mythic rares are automatically going to be chase rares, since everyone knows they're going to be 2-3 times rarer than "normal" rares.
Honestly, I just don't like the flavor of it. I know the idea is to drive sales, and it will, because dealers in the secondary market will have to open up significantly more boxes to get singles of the mythic rares. It won't stop the dedicated tournament players, who've shown they're willing to drop $50 apiece on individual cards for their tournament decks. It's going to hurt the casual players mostly, and I find that tremendously annoying.
I've thought for a while they should introduce something similar to a mythic rare -- maybe one per box -- of reprints of a lot of the old power cards.
I know I'd be tempted to buy cards by the box if it meant I might get a dual land or even a piece of jewelry along with it. But the idea of a higher rarity for newly-printed cards is completely bogus.
Yeah, just learned today that Mutavaults have apparently spiked to $40 apiece since last weekend here in the States and Bitterblossoms are around $30. I blame the price jump on people stocking up for Block constructed, but it's happening regardless of the cause.
I'm not picking at technicalities, I'm fundamentally disagreeing with you. Card price IS dependent on rarity. Yes, Kitchen Finks costs more than Deep-Slumber Titan. Disregarding the Titan entirely, would you agree that Kitchen Finks would cost more than it currently does if it were a rare instead of an uncommon? (If not, I'd love to hear some justification!)
Char, for example, was a $12-15 card in its day. Flame Javelin is its modern day equivalent, but at uncommon instead of rare, and runs $3-4. I can't prove it, certainly, but I don't think it's unreasonable to speculate that Flame Javelin, if rare, would be in the $12-15 range.
Similarly, Garruk, as a rare, costs about $20. If he were a Mythic rare, with (roughly) half the chance of getting one in a pack, he'd probably be about $40. I will all but guarantee you that this is the logic that will guide the pricing in the secondary market.
Good cards will always be in demand, which drives up their price relative to other cards of that rarity. If you increase the scarcity of a good (in this case, by giving a card a higher rarity) while holding demand constant, its price will increase commensurately.
Hold on, i think u've shot off on a tangent a tad. BUT just to be fair, i agree with the statement that "if finks were rare it would be worth a little more". bcos its jumping up a completely different class. jumping from uncommon to rare is a bigger jump than from rare to mythic.
In short, i dont think any card will hit $30 unless it was utterly retarded like goyf and blossom.....ie, if that new red green planeswalker is as powerful as garruk, he would still be around the $20 mark. Of Course in saying, we have to wait 1 month after the release to allow time for the hype to settle.
I am upset at the fact the first set has 15 so lets do the math any good card you want 4 of ok that puts us at 60 cards at 1 per 8 packs roughly 4 a box you have to buy 480 packs about 13 boxes for a chance at playsets of them all.
Do not really care about the pre cons i stopped buying them long ago anyway.
The booster pack who cares about the extra land it will work out to this "draft players open the pack, take out the basic land put it in pile or set it to the side now make your first pick and pass the pack." It just takes place of a 15th pick plus with a smaller set size we should get better cards anyway.
The fat pack not having the novel i will never buy these again no point in it cheaper to just buy a die or counter at a store and some tournment packs.
But as all things time will tell and with evening tide around the corner it will basically be a who cares set with everyone now waiting for shards wil all the changes and Planeswalkers
To begin with the less controversial things;
Basic lands in boosters
You have to take WotC's shoes here, the question is "If more new players are coming, how could we provide them the basic lands?" and seriously this is one of the possible answers. In places where no other products with basic lands are sold, the unused lands from the packs could still be collected and distributed. Basic lands are provided in fat packs, which not many people are buying and not available in most new stores, tournament pack, which could be even more scarce than the fat packs. This might not be the most ideal solution, but the other alternative is new stores are deprived of basic lands.
For drafters, the loss of 3 commons could be compensated simply by slightly upping the overall playability of the commons in the set. That would drive the number of playable picks higher and the loss of 3 cards wouldn't affect the overall power level of drafting.
Intro decks
Suits the right target more than precon, 'nuff said.
Reducing the number of cards per year
Great decision that would benefit both them and us. Less number of cards generally equals less number of craps. In a world with abundant of cards there could be a lot of craps and the constructed scene would still function. In a world with less card however, too many craps means the constructed scene is more docile and less exciting. And I think it's a fact that "Less craps = Happier players"
Now for the real deal
Mythic rares
If you read carefully in MaRo's article, there was a message that really impressed me. It was "Some rares could afford to be rarer and some rares should be more common." Now this is something I call insight. Categorizing cards into different rarities allow you to make better fine adjustment on how often they appear. I think many people had done the math and the number are known, but the summary is as follow;
Big sets: Rares 132% as common than current rares, mythic rares 64% as common as current rares
Small sets: Rares 125% as common than current rares, mythic rare 62.5% as common as current rares
The thing is now they could choose the utility cards to be more common and specific cards to be more rares. After a set is released the market is in a chaos and some cards are more expensive than they should be. But once the dust settles the result is mostly the same every time, the utility rares keep its value and the specific rares plummet. Being 25% more common equals 20% cheaper price and being 36% less common equals 50% more expensive price in theory. The bottom line is, are you happy with the world where Mutavaults are 20% cheaper and Doran is 50% more expensive? I do.
Now there might be some chase rares in the mythic rare slots and the price would skyrocket soon after the set's release, but that's not the market at its equilibrium, it's the market with overhyped demands. Once the dust setlles and more copies of the card come out to satisfy the demand, the price would go down, because those mythic rares are meant to be more specific and hence fit only with certain archetypes.
Take a look at the example of Doran when it first came out and it got hyped by its success in Worlds and various extended tournaments. Once the market reached the equilibrium, due to its very specific nature, the price came down.
Mythic rares as money-making scheme
Before I address this issue, let me tell you one fact: Contracted sets without any other changes would cause less packs to be sold, that's obvious enough. So mythic rares are there to eek out more money, not to make more money than before, but to make more money to compensate the less packs sold due to sets becoming smaller. So in the end, smaller sets benefit the general community, and mythic rare is there to make sure the profit margin stays the same. It's a trade-off, but surely a trade-off that I'm happy with.
Of course there are many conditions WotC would have to fulfill in order to eek out the best of these changes, but these changes are for good as I explained. Even if it turn out to be a failure, these changes aren't bad ideas as many of you have speculated, they're good ideas with bad implementation.
---------------------------
Below are things the Magic R&D would have to do the get the best out of these changes
1. Make sure the utility cards are in the rare slots and not mythic rare slots. Failure to do this would result in a must-play mythic rare with overwhleming price and frustrated players.
2. If a card could be both mythic and utility, put them in the utility slots. For example, Lorwyn's commands could be wither utility or mythic. Same reason as number 1.
3. Make sure they create a new balance of power for the commons to ensure consistent limited environment.
4. Having too many 'I win the draft' mythic rares would hurt the game due to more chance more roll of luck.
5. Make sure there are less junk rares because having more junk rares in a contracted set simply screw up the constructed environment.
Cheers
And, really, putting a basic land in with each pack - even in the expert expansions? That, in and of itself, doesn't bother me, if they just added a 16th card to each pack, and you could take it out when drafting. But taking out a common to do it instead? Not really happy with this one either.
The smaller sets doesn't really make me that happy either. I play Vintage, so I like having tons of options. MaRo was saying that part of the reason of the smaller sizes was so any one random deck can't necessarily win a major tournament. Isn't that one of THE definitions of a healthy format? Because I might not want to play Elves, Faeries, Doran, Reveillark or Fish this weekend, but Random.dec, why should I not get a fair shot at the Nationals invite? In all fairness, I usually net deck anyways since I'm mostly a Spike, but it almost never fails that round 1 of a major tournament, I play something that's way out there, and it's a lot of fun playing against it. The only reason this Standard environment is any fun is because of all the options we have.
The sets better be really good, cause the last block that was actually fun to play was Kamigawa. Give me my three levels of rarity (common, uncommon, rare), get rid of that stupid basic land and give me my 11 commons back and give me my set sizes back! :argh::mad:
:symu::symb::symr:Gwendlyn di Corci:symu::symb::symr:
:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg:Sliver Overlord:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg:
:symu::symr:Jhoria of the Ghitu:symu::symr:
Protection from [X] means:
1) It cannot be damaged by [X],
3) It cannot be blocked by [X] and
4) It cannot be targeted by [X].
You can Wrath of God a Black Knight and Damnation a White Knight.
Ok, just about everyone complained with Thoughtseize at rare right? Well with the Mythic Rare rarity added, Thoughtseize and all other regular rares costs go down! In addition, Mark Rosewater said in his article that wizards will NOT print tournament staples and support cards at Mythic Rare. Mythic Rare will be a bunch of Timmy-Spike cards (like the planeswalekrs) with lots of flavor and coolness. The elevation of these cards cost will sigficantly decrease the cost of other rares in the set. In other words, the cost of (the next) Simic Sky Swallower goes up the cost of (the next) Thoughseize goes down. Despite sounding like a terrible idea at first, it's not that bad when you think about it.
The only part of this change that bugs me is the less cards per set. I hate that idea! With only a tiny percentage of cards seeing play in even standard and block, decreasing the number avaliable is a terrible plan.
Last time i checked Maro is human gas prices are not going down and you never beleive the goverment so why do should we take his word for granite. I also think this was the guy who said they would never print a legend in a core set.
Give it some time, If we get to January of 2009 and things are as bad as people think, maybe then, but I doubt itll happen.