Then let's talk about signatures. Most of the people here are using signature images that are stolen from some artist's copyrighted work. (Mine isn't -- my signature contains *my* art.) There could be dozens of lawsuits against posters here, or one big lawsuit against MTGS for enabling the infringements.
Face it -- copyright law is overly broad and overly injurious of minor infringments. The only thing that allows the world to function is that most copyright infringments are harmless and ignored by the copyright holder. Movie critics would not exist if movie owners didn't allow them to talk about the product and reveal spoilers about it. Legally, WoTC *could* sue anyone who criticizes any Magic card, on the grounds that their criticism could harm sales. There's a principle called Fair Use that's supposed to allow criticism, but some companies have tried to use copyright to prevent critics or even to remove the right of Fair Use. It could be (and certainly should be, in court) argued that posting spoilers is allowed under Fair Use as a non-commercial use for review, with no or positive impact on the market for the product. Wizards wants to deny Fair Use because they don't want spoilers -- spoilers that are coming from them.
This is not about copyright. This is about Wizards destroying Daron as an example to frighten their own employees.
If it were about copyright, WotC would be suing every site that sells cards, because the text and images of those cards are being used without permission.
This is a big corporation using overkill on an outsider to handle an internal problem. That, in my mind, is simply and completely wrong.
I can't stop companies from doing wrong things. But I can refuse to give money to them. I do not shop at WalMart, I do not buy RIAA labelled music, and I do not eat at McDonald's. I will have no problem at all avoiding WoTC products if this travesty continues. I don't care whether it hurts them or not; I just will not knowingly give money to corporations that act in evil ways. And I will try to encourage my friends to follow my example.
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Then let's talk about signatures. Most of the people here are using signature images that are stolen from some artist's copyrighted work. (Mine isn't -- my signature contains *my* art.) There could be dozens of lawsuits against posters here, or one big lawsuit against MTGS for enabling the infringements.
Face it -- copyright law is overly broad and overly injurious of minor infringments. The only thing that allows the world to function is that most copyright infringments are harmless and ignored by the copyright holder. Movie critics would not exist if movie owners didn't allow them to talk about the product and reveal spoilers about it. Legally, WoTC *could* sue anyone who criticizes any Magic card, on the grounds that their criticism could harm sales. There's a principle called Fair Use that's supposed to allow criticism, but some companies have tried to use copyright to prevent critics or even to remove the right of Fair Use. It could be (and certainly should be, in court) argued that posting spoilers is allowed under Fair Use as a non-commercial use for review, with no or positive impact on the market for the product. Wizards wants to deny Fair Use because they don't want spoilers -- spoilers that are coming from them.
This is not about copyright. This is about Wizards destroying Daron as an example to frighten their own employees.
If it were about copyright, WotC would be suing every site that sells cards, because the text and images of those cards are being used without permission.
This is a big corporation using overkill on an outsider to handle an internal problem. That, in my mind, is simply and completely wrong.
I can't stop companies from doing wrong things. But I can refuse to give money to them. I do not shop at WalMart, I do not buy RIAA labelled music, and I do not eat at McDonald's. I will have no problem at all avoiding WoTC products if this travesty continues. I don't care whether it hurts them or not; I just will not knowingly give money to corporations that act in evil ways. And I will try to encourage my friends to follow my example.
Corporations aren't stupid. Nor evil. They are just soulless, guided by profits. WotC hasn't acted evily, they just took the course of action which they felt was the best thing to do to maximise profits. The $90,000 is peanuts to WotC, and like many have said it's probably a warning to everyone else regarding what WotC thinks about spoilers.
Although I think that it is extremely unfair to Daron to have to bear the full burden of all spoilers that have ever been leaked, I do not fault WotC wanting to stop leaked cards. From an article of MaRo, it is true that spoilers put those who look at them compared to those who don't on an unequal footing at pre-releases. Pre-releases should be about discovering new cards, and looking at them for the first time physically. The previews are sufficient enought to whet the appetite of the cards, and magicthegather.com staff chooses the right ones to showcase what the set is about. Imagine how it would be like for Saviors if the first card leaked was One With Nothing. Everyone would be going like wtf.
Barring this unpleasant lawsuit, putting everyone on level ground with the same number of card previews, and the excitement of obtaining never-heard of cards before their release date is gonna help the game.
Corporations aren't stupid. Nor evil. They are just soulless, guided by profits.
The actions that corporations take can be stupid or smart, evil or good. Profit is a valid motivator for corporations, but it does not have to be the only motivating force, and 'maximize profit at the expense of everything else' is, IMHO, an evil stance for a corporation to take. Not all corporations are ruthlessly, short-sightedly greedy.
The 'unequal footing' argument has already been blown out of the water because Wizards posts the full spoiler themselves, before the pre-releases.
Whether this helps the game or not, it is the wrong thing to do. To give a histrionic strawman argument, turning the middle east into a parking lot might help America...but it would be wrong.
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Although I think that it is extremely unfair to Daron to have to bear the full burden of all spoilers that have ever been leaked, I do not fault WotC wanting to stop leaked cards.
He's not, he's bearing the burden of posting the playtesting cards. I don't fault wizards for wanting to stop playtesting cards from being leaked, but if they think the game would be better or more profitable without set spoilers then IMO they're wrong.
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Quote from Avatar of Kokusho »
What in the name of all that's holy are you smoking????
The $90,000 is peanuts to WotC, and like many have said it's probably a warning to everyone else regarding what WotC thinks about spoilers.
I'm tired of people saying this. It is not about how little WotC stands to gain, but rather, that if they go through with this they have the burden on their shoulders that THEY have financially ruined a man who supported their game for years, for the forseeable future. And not just that man, but his two young children and his wife as well. THAT is what makes this action greedy, heartless, and, in the opinions of most, wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by conspiracy theorists Lol, I'm sure this is information that WOTC would be very interested in finding out as well. Specifically to help determine certain aspects of their case.
Just to speed things up why not just simply come out and tell us specifically what other information they need to help nail down their case?
Honestly, anyone still unsure about the nature of these posts, the probing for specific confidentiaL information and blantant attempts to shape the public opinion need only look directly at this last post. "Cool, I was wondering if you could shed some light on...", right. I'm sure many of Salvations members have been kept awake at night wondering those exact same things.
For once, i agree with you here hawk. Normally i hate all conspiracy theories, but his commens have been getting awfully fishy.
I agree as well. What a pitiful attempt.
This is private information regarding the website, and frankly, no one who doesn't already have the facts regarding it neither needs said facts nor will ever see them. You have no business having such intelligence unless it is given freely. I will admit I know the answer to one or more of the things you asked, but there is no way in hell you'll get me to give them away.
Hey, while we're at it, let's just go ask Bush for the passwords to every nuclear weapon in the United States!
Since the lawsuit is against R_E and not MTGS, I doubt website traffic for MTGS is going to do anything significant to help Hasbro's case. R_E's lawyer would probably be able to clarify that.
If it's private, fine and good. But you don't need to rip on someone for asking Hannes to follow up on a comment Hannes himself (herself?) made. It's not like Millmaster pulled that question up out of the blue. And please, feel free to check my own background if you actually think I'm posting any of this because I'm a WotC/Hasbro 'shill'. I'll happily provide you with anything necessary to make you see some reason.
Thanks for the objective observation of my comments, prot. I wonder if the people who make these accusations even keep track of the prevouse post, or even look at the quotes in MY post..lol.
Hannes, the owner of MTGS stated that more than 2% of the magic community looks at the site. I quantified that to 170,000 people approximately. The question was one that I, and my others have been asking for the last week or so. Just how much attention do spoilers really garner from the magic community? The answer could shed so much light on a lot of the arguments we have been having. If Wizards thinks that MTGS is some how culpable in the violation of its copyrights or trade-secrets it will sue MTGS regardless of if 100 or 100,000 people come to the site to look at the spoilers. Since I’m assuming the site is hosted in Zurich, who knows if they could get their hands on the sites records or not. I am just interested in quantifying what a boycott by every spoiler-reader would really do to Wizards.
Quote from Bazaar_of_Baghdad »
Sorry, I'm still hung on what exactly is copyrighted on a Magic card. If the answer is everything, then I don't see how we can mention a single fact about a Magic card's content (without permission) without infringing the copyright. If instead, talking about it falls under fair use, where is the line between what is legal and what is not? Regardless of the outcome of RE's case, if this is indeed unclear legally, I hope a judge clarifies it once and for all.
As others have stated, everything on the card is copyrighted. The fair use clause comes into effect when you actually go out and buy cards. You have the right to discuss the cards, talk about what they do, who the artist is, what the name of the card is, etc. If you are a retailer that sells cards, Wizards puts out press-releases that contain pictures of boxes, packs, etc that are allowed to be used by retailers. They can also create scans of the cards they sell. This goes back to the ‘you take a picture of your jeep’ and put it in the paper to sell it argument.
What fair-use does NOT cover are products that are not even in production yet. You can’t claim fair-use for something that you cant even purchase in the first place. Playtest cards and magic spoiler information is protected because it is considered a copyrighted trade-secret of Wizards. Once Wizards themselves make their cards, or information about their cards publicly available, then fair-use can be claimed. Just remember, Wizards is the only entity that can make the decision, this is why they make all their employees sign the NDA. If Wizards puts out an add in Scrye that shows the text and picture of a card, then you can talk about it all you want because Wizards released that information themselves.
Quote from JStutz2003 »
We do not know that those images were acquired illegally. Again, it could have very easily been someone who did NOT sign an NDA took those pictures and sent them.
Anyone who would have direct access to the playtest cards would have signed the NDA. There would either have to have been a Rainbow 6 operative that sneaked into R&D and took the pictures, or someone who was under a NDA told a 3rd party, and then that party told Daron. Either way, Daron is still legally responsible for putting out protected content. Think about it this way, there is NO LEGAL way to acquire pictures of playtest cards unless Wizards releases them to the public themselves (which they have done in the past on their website). If someone steals a car, and then says hey borrow my car, and you get pulled over by the cops, do you think you wont be in trouble? You will be, but the cops will most likely ask you to tell them who gave you the car, and no doubt Wizards is asking Daron for information about his sources.
Quote from Bazaar_of_Baghdad »
Kind of a separate topic, but I wonder what would happen if Wizards faced an anti-monopoly lawsuit.
Lol! What kind of monopoly do you think Wizards has? There are TONS of other companies that put out CCGs. This is like saying, well Ford has a monopoly on the Mustang, Dodge should sue them so they can start producing the Mustang too…
Wizards wants to keep its cards secret until they decide they are going to be released to the public, they aren’t trying to stop other manufacturers from producing their own CCG’s.
Quote from oarick »
While I can't say I've ever cared to know how much any site charges for advertising (pretty much the only time I care about the cost of advertising is for a superbowl commercial), I can say I've wondered about how many people look at the spoilers each season. I understand if the information is confidential or if it would impact the case then we're not going to get an answer, and I certainly don't want to fuel any conspiracy theories, but it would be interesting to know how many individual IP addresses view the spoilers each season to get an idea of just how many people MTGS spoilers reach (in order to derive a percentage of magic players who would be impacted by a loss of spoilers). I would venture to say, however, that the vast majority of pro players would be included in a list of those who follow the spoilers...
Yeah, It is an interesting topic that we will probably never know the real answer to. Now my question is, if one of Hannes’ webmasters leaked the information to me, and I started posting it up on the net, would you think that was justified?! But anyway.. All of those people, whoever they are, will just see the spoiler when it gets posted on Wizards website the way they want it.
Then again, they may not even want this. Much of this case is about leaked playtest cards and not spoilers themselves. After the dust settles from this thing, Wizards may still allow unofficial spoilers to come out before they officially release theirs. This whole thing might just be an attack against Daron to weed out the spies at Wizards, or it could be the start of a greater campaign to shut down all unofficial spoilers completely.
Quote from Remus_Shepherd »
It could be (and certainly should be, in court) argued that posting spoilers is allowed under Fair Use as a non-commercial use for review, with no or positive impact on the market for the product. Wizards wants to deny Fair Use because they don't want spoilers -- spoilers that are coming from them.
How can you argue that you’re legally allowed to review a product that isn’t even supposed to be known to the public? A product that is only known about because someone broke the law and violated their NDA as well as laws concerning the regulation of trade-secrets? You could argue Fair Use after the illegal information has been posted all over the net, but even that argument might be pretty thin, and only tolerated because the cat is out of the bag, so to speak. Look at the case Apple vs Does, where Apple shut down a website for releasing its trade-secrets.
Quote from Remus_Shepherd »
This is not about copyright. This is about Wizards destroying Daron as an example to frighten their own employees.
If it were about copyright, WotC would be suing every site that sells cards, because the text and images of those cards are being used without permission.
First off, do you know that these card shops don’t have permission from Wizards? Also, do you know that the images might be covered under Fair Use? The images are of cards that those companies own and are reselling. You are assuming to much and that hurts your argument that this is not about copyright.
As I said above, I think this could possibly be a move to stop all spoilers in general. The first thing you would logically do to start this process off is to go after the head of spoilers, Daron. Again, time will tell if this is just about the playtest cards, or if this is a move against any leaked trade-secrets owned by Wizards/Hasbro.
Quote from Remus_Shepherd »
This is a big corporation using overkill on an outsider to handle an internal problem. That, in my mind, is simply and completely wrong.
This is most likely the reason why they are using the heavy handed tactics they are using against Daron. This still does not make what Daron did RIGHT, and it is not completely wrong in any sense, it’s morally wrong, but not defensively or legally wrong. Cops use these tactics every day of ours lives to make one criminal roll over on another.
Quote from Remus_Shepherd »
I can't stop companies from doing wrong things. But I can refuse to give money to them. I do not shop at WalMart, I do not buy RIAA labelled music, and I do not eat at McDonald's. I will have no problem at all avoiding WoTC products if this travesty continues. I don't care whether it hurts them or not; I just will not knowingly give money to corporations that act in evil ways. And I will try to encourage my friends to follow my example.
Are you going to sell all your cards and stop playing magic also? Your still supporting Wizards just by playing their game. Heck, this is a message board for magic players, are you going to delete your account on here? That would be the ultimate sign of conviction to your anti-wizards boycott.
Quote from oarick »
He's not, he's bearing the burden of posting the playtesting cards. I don't fault wizards for wanting to stop playtesting cards from being leaked, but if they think the game would be better or more profitable without set spoilers then IMO they're wrong.
What gave you this idea? Wizards releases spoiler cards themselves during the weeks leading up the pr-release. They also post the full spoiler themselves that Friday. Wizards just wants to control their information themselves, and stop any 3rd parties from releasing information that they did not intend to be released at that time. People keep acting like you will never see a spoiler again in your life. You will.. it will just be released by Wizards. No one argues that not having a spoiler out 2 months ahead of the set release hurts profits. We are just talking about time here, not the removal of any spoilers. Besides, Fair Use would protect you if you wanted to created your own spoiler after the set was released anyway. This is about protected information that Wizards wants to control themselves. It is also about spies inside Wizards who need to be rooted out.
Wizards just can't issue C&D orders. Many sites would post spoilers, gain the traffic, and then stop.
$90,000 is not financial ruin. It's not like the guy is going to be out on the streets. He's got plenty of inventory to sell and it's likely that the amount will be reduced.
I don't see why you all are outraged by Wizards sueing this guy. When I got back into Magic I found it very suprising that these spoilers existed. I know if Wizards was my company I would of certainly done something about this much sooner.
I've not sifted through this entire thread, so I'll only respond to this last page (which grows as I write). If you're going to make comments about an issue of a legal nature then it makes sense to understand the legal issues. With that in mind, here are three links to relevant Wikipedia articles:
So there is no confusion... no, I am not an attorney but I do have some legal training and a reasonable understanding of the issue. I will do my best to clear up the confusion.
Quote from Bazaar of Baghdad »
Sorry, I'm still hung on what exactly is copyrighted on a Magic card. If the answer is everything, then I don't see how we can mention a single fact about a Magic card's content (without permission) without infringing the copyright. If instead, talking about it falls under fair use, where is the line between what is legal and what is not?
Anything unique to Magic is copyrighted. The card design, layout, art, fictional names, mechanics, templating, rules text, etc., are all unique to the game and are copyrighted materials. Talking about copyrighted materials is fair use. The link to the fair use article I posted explains where the legal lines are drawn. In this case, I believe the underlying issue is the fourth factor: effect on a work's value. It is likely that Wizards can make the case that unauthorized reproduction of leaked spoilers negatively impacts their sales. If that is the case, then fair use probably will not be an acceptable defense.
Quote from Talen Lee »
Singing in the shower violates the copyright on the song.
I might be wrong, but I don't believe this is true. U.S. law protects the public performance of a copyrighted work, but not a private one. You can sing to yourself all you want, but you cannot stand up on a park bench and throw an impromptu one-man Broadway review to an adulating crowd.
Quote from Bazaar of Baghdad »
Basically, if someone wants to do some independent journalism on Magic cards, that person has no legal way of doing so because any discussion of the cards is illegal. I cannot believe that to be the case.
This is my opinion on where the line is drawn: the copyright prevents people from making in tournament legal form a piece of cardboard with the same info as a WotC created card (published or no). Since RE did not do that, it follows that in my opinion he is not guilty of copyright violation.
This is not accurate. Using the names of Magic cards in your article is, in fact, a copyright infringement but it is not illegal because it is considered fair use. You are also mistaken about the nature of a copyright in that it is independent of media used. If a song is released on a CD and you copy it and distribute it as an MP3, that is copyright infringement. Changing the format does not change the protected material. Similarly, reproducing a Magic card in electronic or even text-based form does not change the protected material. So a card does not have to be forged (which is what you're describing) to violate the copyright.
Quote from Remus Shepherd »
Because, you know, some shades of the color purple are trademarked by Cadbury, Inc. UPS owns brown, and Mattel owns green and pink. Theoretically, if you use the wrong color on your web forum, someone could sue you.
Colors are not and cannot be copyrighted. The use of a certain color in a certain product or package design can and is. Cadbury cannot copyright purple. They can copyright the purple-based design of their foil packaging.
Quote from Remus Shepherd »
Then let's talk about signatures. Most of the people here are using signature images that are stolen from some artist's copyrighted work. (Mine isn't -- my signature contains *my* art.) There could be dozens of lawsuits against posters here, or one big lawsuit against MTGS for enabling the infringements.
You are absolutely correct.
Quote from Remus Shepherd »
There's a principle called Fair Use that's supposed to allow criticism, but some companies have tried to use copyright to prevent critics or even to remove the right of Fair Use. It could be (and certainly should be, in court) argued that posting spoilers is allowed under Fair Use as a non-commercial use for review, with no or positive impact on the market for the product. Wizards wants to deny Fair Use because they don't want spoilers -- spoilers that are coming from them.
What some companies try to do is irrelevant, whether or not fair use is upheld is relevant. I agree that a fair use argument could be plausible, but whether the fight is one rancored_elf wishes to risk losing is entirely his call.
Quote from Remus Shepherd »
This is a big corporation using overkill on an outsider to handle an internal problem. That, in my mind, is simply and completely wrong.
I'd tend to agree, but what is the alternative? Short of firing everyone who has any access whatsoever to unreleased product information (which is not feasible), how can they handle the problem internally? While it may be better for their PR to find a way, it's much easier to deter people outside the company from posting leaked information. It may be a bullyish tactic, but it it gets the job done. You are welcome to disagree, but I think calling WotC "evil" is going too far.
Quote from Remus Shepherd »
The 'unequal footing' argument has already been blown out of the water because Wizards posts the full spoiler themselves, before the pre-releases.
I agree, and that's what bothers me most about the lawsuit. Are they within their legal rights? Absolutely. Do any of the rationales they've given hold water? Nope. A little straight-talk from WotC about their motivations instead of sugarcoating would be nice.
Quote from ButteBlues18 »
... this they have the burden on their shoulders that THEY have financially ruined a man who supported their game for years, for the forseeable future. And not just that man, but his two young children and his wife as well. THAT is what makes this action greedy, heartless, and, in the opinions of most, wrong.
It's hard to disagree with that, but at the same time I don't get the impression that this has come as any surprise to rancored_elf. He may face financial ruin, which seems unfair and excessive, but that was his choice and he knowingly took that risk.
Quote from MillMaster »
What fair-use does NOT cover are products that are not even in production yet.
This is actually not true, but it is trickier. But I agree with everything else you say.
I would like to finish by saying that if the ultimate argument in support of rancored_elf is that it is unfair to take such severe financial action against him then I say: put your money where your mouth is. There are 9,266 resistered users on this forum and many more visit the website. If everyone who visits the site donated $10 out of their Magic budget, rancored_elf could easily pay any judgement against him as well as his legal fees and get on with his life.
MillMaster, WotC owns an exclusive patent on CCGs. Anyone who develops a CCG must pay Wizards a royalty to do so. There is no competition; WotC does have a monopoly.
Others have fired off replies to these concepts faster than I have, but I'll leave my 2 cents in the chorus anyway.
Quote from JStutz2003 »
We do not know that those images were acquired illegally. Again, it could have very easily been someone who did NOT sign an NDA took those pictures and sent them.
They don't need to be acquired illegally to be infringing.
Quote from Vodka7up »
R_E doesn't necessarily know the sources. The info can very well be transmitted by someone using an anonymous email account, and never reveal their identity.
If this is the case, then I think R_E will end up going up the creek. If all their employees need to do is send stuff anonymously, then I don't see how "they've been warned," as you say. It would suggest that they'll get off scot free. I think it's more likely that if R_E doesn't know who leaked the cards, Wizards will look to crush him as an example to anyone else who may try posting spoilers in the future.
Quote from Bazaar of Baghdad »
The point is:
1) journalism is a protected right in America.
2) the everything-is-protected approach does not allow for journalism on Magic cards.
You're misunderstanding what journalism is. Again, to repeat myself again, it's not protected speech to print more than a line or two of, for example, a Harry Potter book in USA Today. What you call "journalism on Magic cards," any judge or intellectual property lawyer worth his or her salt would call "massive copyright infringement."
Quote from Bazaar of Baghdad »
Wizards would have a had time proving that if everyone in the world had every prototype to every card available to them, that WotC would be harmed in the slightest. Why? Because no one can do anything about all that information.
Again, that is not the standard. The standard is not whether they would be harmed, but whether their copyrights were infringed.
Quote from Bazaar of Baghdad »
Kind of a separate topic, but I wonder what would happen if Wizards faced an anti-monopoly lawsuit.
Copyrights and patents are, in rough and ready terms, analagous to temporary monopolies designed to allow authors of intellectual property to profit from their creations. So, in short, that lawsuit would be laughed out of court.
Quote from Remus Shepherd »
The only thing that allows the world to function is that most copyright infringments are harmless and ignored by the copyright holder.
I think gravity might play a role in allowing the world to function, so copyright infringement, at the very least, isn't "the only thing."
Quote from Remus Shepherd »
Movie critics would not exist if movie owners didn't allow them to talk about the product and reveal spoilers about it. Legally, WoTC *could* sue anyone who criticizes any Magic card, on the grounds that their criticism could harm sales.
Movie critics and book reviews are allowed to refer to small amounts of copyrighted content in this manner. I remember watching a commentary track on an episode of The Simpsons where the writers and producers talked about how much of _A Streetcar Named Desire_ they could quote without facing a lawsuit.
Quote from Remus Shepherd »
Wizards wants to deny Fair Use because they don't want spoilers -- spoilers that are coming from them.
This just isn't fair use. Refer to PatentAttorney's posts earlier in the thread. Wishing doesn't make it so.
Quote from Remus Shepherd »
This is not about copyright. This is about Wizards destroying Daron as an example to frighten their own employees.
If it were about copyright, WotC would be suing every site that sells cards, because the text and images of those cards are being used without permission.
Wizards is not required to enforce their copyright in a way that you consider consistent or fair. Basically, copyright law says that Wizards can use their intellectual property the way they want. It appears that they're fine with discussion of cards that have been released, but playtest cards, and perhaps spoilers in general nowadays, cross the line for them. I don't disagree that Wizards is looking to frighten (and fire and probably sue) their employees who are infringing on their copyrights, but that doesn't mean that it's not about copyright.
Well, even in the worst case scenario where R_E completely loses the case, is it possible to argue that the copyright infringment is not more than one occurence?
The argument would be that the cards don't have unique copyrights, since cards are not sold individually by WotC. It would be very much like taking a picture of several pages of manuscript from whatever level of completion is to be had for the next Harry Potter book. She could not reasonably claim that each page is a unique copyright infringement.
Of course, the worst consequence would be that he'd have to stop obtaining these leaks, and we'd all be left in the dark. I would rapidly lose almost all my interest in the game, if that happened.
I suppose the best argument they can make is through Fair Use. I feel like Entrapment would be the fairest case to make, but that would never stick. It's really frustrating that it looks like the whole case is based on a setup. R_E's actions were never as blatant as posting playtest cards, and if he'd known for sure that that's what they were, I'd be willing to bet he wouldn't have posted them at all.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
How can you argue that you’re legally allowed to review a product that isn’t even supposed to be known to the public?
Movies, novels, and computer games are all reviewed before public release, and not always as part of a publisher-sponsored preview process.
Quote from Kraj »
Colors are not and cannot be copyrighted.
But they can and are trademarked, which is what I wrote. A different application of property rights, but one that IMHO is just as outrageous. Cadbury has trademarked a specific hue of purple.
Quote from croctotheface »
Wizards is not required to enforce their copyright in a way that you consider consistent or fair. Basically, copyright law says that Wizards can use their intellectual property the way they want.
You're absolutely correct. Whether or not spoilers constitute Fair Use is a complicated question, and one that we'd need a judge to decide. But Wizards decision to attempt enforcement of copyright against spoilers is entirely within their rights.
However, it is entirely within *my* rights to decide where to spend my money, and if I see a company being inconsistent or unfair then they lose my business.
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It's hard to disagree with that, but at the same time I don't get the impression that this has come as any surprise to rancored_elf. He may face financial ruin, which seems unfair and excessive, but that was his choice and he knowingly took that risk.
Well, how is it supposed to appear to be a risk if Wizards had let him post rumours and spoilers for YEARS before finally taking suit?
But they can and are trademarked, which is what I wrote. A different application of property rights, but one that IMHO is just as outrageous. Cadbury has trademarked a specific hue of purple.
*Sigh* Yes, trademark is the appropriate term to use. But no, you're still completely wrong. First of all: Cadbury's trademark of the color purple is filed only in New Zeland and Australia, so it is completely irrrelevant to the discussion. Second: Even in that case, the trademark applies only to chocolate marketing. Cadbury does not have a trademark on the color purple, they have a trademark on using the color purple to package and market chocolate. This is relevant because it works the same way in the U.S. For example, Coca-Cola and Target are both brands that use the color red to distinguish their product. They can both have a trademark on red because they are not in direct competition with one another and one company's branding does not interfere with the other. On the flip side, Pepsi cannot design a primarily red can because they are in direct competition with Coke. While this law does protect the branding of a company, it also protects the consumer from being tricked into believing a product is something it is not.
Quote from ButteBlues18 »
Well, how is it supposed to appear to be a risk if Wizards had let him post rumours and spoilers for YEARS before finally taking suit?
If you drive down the same stretch of road at 15 miles per hour over the speed limit for years is that a valid defense when you finally get a ticket? No. If RE truly had no idea his actions were illegal then he has my sympathy, but the impression I get is he knew full well he was treading in dangerous waters and continued posting spoilers despite the risk. The fact that he got away with it for years is no defense. I truly hope he makes it through this as unscathed as possible, but he's far from a blindsided victim.
I might also add that the economy and game environment are always changing. It's quite possible that for many years the spoilers didn't hurt or even helped WotC's business. That doesn't mean they have no right to take action if leaks start to hurt the business. Another possibility is that spoiler leaks transformed from a minor nusance into a widespread and out-of-control problem, prompting WotC to take action. Another possibility is that the people at WotC don't have a problem with leaked spoilers, but the powers that be at Hasbro are forcing them to take stronger measures to protect their intellectual property (which I think is a likely scenario). Without an official and thorough explanation of WotC's motives (which we may never get) it is unfair to pass judgement.
You know, I'm seeing an analogous situation play out with Google, right now.
Google has an image search program. It pulls up thumbnails of images from across the web. One company (a porn site) has users pay for the full-sized images. They sued Google to stop the thumbnails, claiming that Fair Use did not apply. The judge reluctantly agreed. He even wrote in his decision that, "The court reaches this conclusion despite the enormous public benefit that search engines such as Google provide".
So...someone provided a public good. The copyright holder sued. The courts agreed. The copyright holder is legally within their rights. But their actions are morally wrong because they are working against the public good. Except for the fact that the plaintiffs here will not bankrupt the defendant, it looks a lot like WotC vs. Rutter to me.
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Movies, novels, and computer games are all reviewed before public release, and not always as part of a publisher-sponsored preview process.
I find this very hard to belive. When movies and books are reviewed it is always with the permission of the publisher or movie house. When video games are reviewed it is a little different because there are alpha/beta copies floating around that allow people to get some insight. But as far as books or movies go I find it almost impossible that someone would see the material unless it was from an illegally leaked source. When these leaks happen, like in the case of the Harry Potter books or movies like The Hulk or Starwars III, the parties that held the copyrights to media in question used the courts to track down the offenders. The actual reviewers of the movies and books were not sued but that did not make the illegal content somehow protected.
I think the cart is being put in front of the horse on this one. You are arguing the instant some leaked material is reviewed on the net, that material is then protected by Fair Use and person (or people) who obtained that illegal information are no longer legally accountable for its dissemination. What is done with the spoiler information after it is obtained has no bearing on someone’s culpability in violation of copyright.
Quote from carrion_pigeons »
R_E's actions were never as blatant as posting playtest cards, and if he'd known for sure that that's what they were, I'd be willing to bet he wouldn't have posted them at all.
This is almost laughable. Look at Darons past history over the last 5 years. He has knowingly distributed information he KNEW to be obtained illegally, and protected by copyright. Now you come along and after he finally gets sued for what he is doing, you expect us to believe that he really wouldn’t have done any of it if he knew the cards were really? Come on… I feel for what the guy is going through, but anyone that tries to argue that Daron didn’t know what he was doing was illegal in so many ways, is just ignorant of the case.
Quote from ButteBlues18 »
Well, how is it supposed to appear to be a risk if Wizards had let him post rumours and spoilers for YEARS before finally taking suit?
The RIAA and the MPAA let filesharing of music and movies go on for years and years before they decided to file suit. Does this make their lawsuits invalid? The way it appears to me is that Wizards either thought there was no net-effect from spoilers being released and now there is some negative effect. Or, Hasbro has come to the conclusion that it is mad about its internal leaks and wants to shut down any release of trade-secrets.
HE is THE SOURCE, everybody knows that.
If you want info on new cards just look for the spoiler of the elf, all the world's big magic sites and forum all have a link that goes directly to the spoiler, I joined this forum ( I think the biggest in the world ) because of those links.
And with me many visitors and members first contact with this Site was a spoiler of a new serie! ( still that's a guess! )
And this is the kind of site that keeps the world wide magic community alive. And last time I checked that was good for business.
The first point would be that Wizards own forums are the largest magic forum on the net. So if you kept exactly the same situation as you describe, but the spoilers are released on WIZARDS site when THEY want them released, instead of on this site when Daron decideds to release, what is the difference? People will still come to Wizards site to look the spoiler, and they will still come to this and other forums to discuss the cards. It wont be any different than it has been in the past.
The bad thing about this case is how Wizards is going after Daron with such intensity, in a way that is really meant to be damaging to him. I just don’t understand where people get this idea that Daron and the websites that publish his spoilers have so much more right to their publication than Wizards own website should. Wizards should have every right to release its own spoiler information whenever it sees fit, and should be able to stop other people from violating its rights. Yes, Wizards never wanted this right before, but now they do. We won’t be losing spoilers or our ability to discuss them in anyway; we will just be getting the spoiler from a different place. This is just fine with me, as long as they don’t destroy a mans life to implement their new policy.
Quote from Futurama_meets_magic »
The world will be ruined when money is put above Morality!
What world are you living in? Money has been put above morality ever since civilization developed money as a concept. Corporations make morality easy to ignore because there is not ONE guy that does everything. Corporations like Hasbro are compartmentalized, so each part of the Hasbro body plays a little part in bringing Daron to justice, but the full moral implications never fully hit any of the parts. This is just how modern companies work. These types of corporate models are WHY things like Magic The Gathering have been so successful for so many years. I don’t know many places where money is not put above morality, possibly a commune in the forests of Oregon or Washington? I bet they don’t play magic in that commune though…
In a way you could argue that Daron put money (or power) above morality. He knew what he was doing was morally wrong, but he still went ahead with it because it brought him attention, and the power that came with that attention. It allowed whole websites to be built around the information he provided, and it even allowed him to start his own website selling magic cards. Do I fault Daron or MTGS for doing this? Hell no I don’t. I would do the same thing, but the consequences of your actions will eventually have to be answered for, regardless of how malevolent the offended party is being.
If you drive down the same stretch of road at 15 miles per hour over the speed limit for years is that a valid defense when you finally get a ticket? No.
Id hate to sound like an example Nazi, but the difference is that every time you go down that street 15 mph over the speed limit, the same cop is watching you and he never says anything. What is the cop's rationale to give you a ticket now after letting you speed for years?
Quote from FuturameMeetsMagic »
The world will be ruined when money is put above Morality!
Too late.;)
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Shadowfox
It is unfair that they make an example of R_E seeing as he is not only innocent of leaking information directly from WotC.
If someone robs a bank (I have to use the on-foot method to get my point across) and is running away from the cops.In the process they come throw the bag at me and keep running.If one of the officers see this and asks me for the bag i can't say "Bug of he gave me the bag".I would get arrested too.This is no different from what Daron did.
Yes it sucks that someones going to get smashed hardcore because of this.I would want to happen to me or anyone i know.Just because people don't want it to happen to him dosen't mean its not going too.
I think its intresrting how hes being a martyr,but not a good martyr
Martyr
1) One who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce reilgious principles.
2)One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief,cause or principel.
3) a)One who endures great suffering: a marytr to arthritis.
b)One who makes a great show of suffering to arouse sympathy.
Lets see......
1)Well that out because this isn't about reiligon.
2)That ones out too because hes not trying to do any of the above mentioned things.
3)a)Well he will be suffer if he has to pay the 90K,it just won't be physical.
b)Hmmmm......yeah thats the one.
So how is that suppose to make him a hero again?
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WOut of the ground,I rise to grace...W BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
Wizards just can't issue C&D orders. Many sites would post spoilers, gain the traffic, and then stop.
$90,000 is not financial ruin. It's not like the guy is going to be out on the streets. He's got plenty of inventory to sell and it's likely that the amount will be reduced.
I don't see why you all are outraged by Wizards sueing this guy. When I got back into Magic I found it very suprising that these spoilers existed. I know if Wizards was my company I would of certainly done something about this much sooner.
I was just gonna just lurk this thread, but this guy really needed to be responded to.
Okey, Lets assume Daron makes the avg CA$ per year. That number is roughly CA$50,000 a year. Lets convert that into US...roughly $US 43,500. Now lets take out the avg Canadian income tax out of his paycheck...this number is 48.2% (ouch), i suspect his rate is actually less. So lets just drop it to an even 40% for the sake of good math. Thats $US 26,100 income for Darron to live off of. Which with kids and a wife...isnt too good. Thats below poverty level by US standards amd probably moreso in Canada.
Even if Darron gave 100% of what he made, It would take him nearly 4 years to pay it all off.
Wizards is saying R_E had what was that word...undue enrichment, so basicly, they may be asking him to stop selling his cards. So he`d loose a revenue stream there.
Please dont comment on things you know nothing about, it will save us alot of time.
Seeing as you or I dont know how much he makes, but considering hes a nurse, considring he has a family, considering he cant even pay for a lawyer, i think that is pretty much a good assumption that hes not rolling naked in money when he gets home at night.
If anyone is interested here is a pretty interesting story from Ars Technica that is similar to whats going on here with R_E. Its about "Google v. Perfect10" and has a lot to do with "Fair Use" and copyright infringement.
Id hate to sound like an example Nazi, but the difference is that every time you go down that street 15 mph over the speed limit, the same cop is watching you and he never says anything. What is the cop's rationale to give you a ticket now after letting you speed for years?
That is exactly right. For years, Wizards has made it known they are aware of leaks, and of spoilers, and have done nothing about them. Not even so much as politely asked RE to stop. Out of the blue, not only are they not asking him to stop, they're out to ruin the lives of himself and his family.
Quote from Millmaster »
The first point would be that Wizards own forums are the largest magic forum on the net. So if you kept exactly the same situation as you describe, but the spoilers are released on WIZARDS site when THEY want them released, instead of on this site when Daron decideds to release, what is the difference? People will still come to Wizards site to look the spoiler, and they will still come to this and other forums to discuss the cards. It wont be any different than it has been in the past.
While they might be the largest, any poster with a sense of self-respect can tell you the WotC boards are a COMPLETE JOKE. It is overrun by so many noobish, and retarded posters, it makes one want to take a sledgehammer to the server the forums are hosted on.
Also to note, MTGNews is about 1/3 the size of MTGcom's boards in terms of # threads, # posts, and # members. In little over a year, MTGS is slowly approaching 1 million posts (1/6th of what the Wizards boards have after... how long?).
Oh, and Daron never has had the full spoiler and simply leaked when he felt. He posts items as he recieves them, and in no way can he guarantee a single one of them is correct. It just happenes that they do tend to be correct.
That is exactly right. For years, Wizards has made it known they are aware of leaks, and of spoilers, and have done nothing about them. Not even so much as politely asked RE to stop. Out of the blue, not only are they not asking him to stop, they're out to ruin the lives of himself and his family.
Okey, Lets assume Daron makes the avg CA$ per year. That number is roughly CA$50,000 a year. Lets convert that into US...roughly $US 43,500. Now lets take out the avg Canadian income tax out of his paycheck...this number is 48.2% (ouch), i suspect his rate is actually less. So lets just drop it to an even 40% for the sake of good math. Thats $US 26,100 income for Darron to live off of. Which with kids and a wife...isnt too good. Thats below poverty level by US standards amd probably moreso in Canada.Even if Darron gave 100% of what he made, It would take him nearly 4 years to pay it all off
Please dont comment on things you know nothing about, it will save us alot of time.
Ok speaking of not commenting about things you know nothing about, I'd like to take a look at your math...
By your estimation, an average person in Canada makes $50,000 canadian, $43,500 american, loses 40% in taxes dropping to $26,100 american, which is below the poverty level in both the U.S. and Canada.
If this were true, then the average person in Canada would be living below the poverty line. Um, hello? Makes no sense. I'm not sure where you got your statistics (or if you just made them up), but I can assure you that less than half of Canada is living in poverty. (FYI, the number is closer to 20%, based on a few sites I looked at).
Possible errors:
1. the tax rate is much lower than %40
2. the tax had already been accounted for in the $50,000 statistic
3. you just made your numbers up
Don't get me wrong though, I agree with most of the rest of what you're saying. Math's a little off though...
-oarick, stat major-
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Quote from Avatar of Kokusho »
What in the name of all that's holy are you smoking????
Indeed, it is those that spawned it. But, as anyone who actually saw when Daron posted the playtest cards can testify to, he himself was pretty sure that they were fake. For the most part, a healthy portion of the site thought the same thing until WotC went "omgwtfbbqsuere".
Because, you know, some shades of the color purple are trademarked by Cadbury, Inc. UPS owns brown, and Mattel owns green and pink. Theoretically, if you use the wrong color on your web forum, someone could sue you.
Then let's talk about signatures. Most of the people here are using signature images that are stolen from some artist's copyrighted work. (Mine isn't -- my signature contains *my* art.) There could be dozens of lawsuits against posters here, or one big lawsuit against MTGS for enabling the infringements.
Face it -- copyright law is overly broad and overly injurious of minor infringments. The only thing that allows the world to function is that most copyright infringments are harmless and ignored by the copyright holder. Movie critics would not exist if movie owners didn't allow them to talk about the product and reveal spoilers about it. Legally, WoTC *could* sue anyone who criticizes any Magic card, on the grounds that their criticism could harm sales. There's a principle called Fair Use that's supposed to allow criticism, but some companies have tried to use copyright to prevent critics or even to remove the right of Fair Use. It could be (and certainly should be, in court) argued that posting spoilers is allowed under Fair Use as a non-commercial use for review, with no or positive impact on the market for the product. Wizards wants to deny Fair Use because they don't want spoilers -- spoilers that are coming from them.
This is not about copyright. This is about Wizards destroying Daron as an example to frighten their own employees.
If it were about copyright, WotC would be suing every site that sells cards, because the text and images of those cards are being used without permission.
This is a big corporation using overkill on an outsider to handle an internal problem. That, in my mind, is simply and completely wrong.
I can't stop companies from doing wrong things. But I can refuse to give money to them. I do not shop at WalMart, I do not buy RIAA labelled music, and I do not eat at McDonald's. I will have no problem at all avoiding WoTC products if this travesty continues. I don't care whether it hurts them or not; I just will not knowingly give money to corporations that act in evil ways. And I will try to encourage my friends to follow my example.
Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.
Corporations aren't stupid. Nor evil. They are just soulless, guided by profits. WotC hasn't acted evily, they just took the course of action which they felt was the best thing to do to maximise profits. The $90,000 is peanuts to WotC, and like many have said it's probably a warning to everyone else regarding what WotC thinks about spoilers.
Although I think that it is extremely unfair to Daron to have to bear the full burden of all spoilers that have ever been leaked, I do not fault WotC wanting to stop leaked cards. From an article of MaRo, it is true that spoilers put those who look at them compared to those who don't on an unequal footing at pre-releases. Pre-releases should be about discovering new cards, and looking at them for the first time physically. The previews are sufficient enought to whet the appetite of the cards, and magicthegather.com staff chooses the right ones to showcase what the set is about. Imagine how it would be like for Saviors if the first card leaked was One With Nothing. Everyone would be going like wtf.
Barring this unpleasant lawsuit, putting everyone on level ground with the same number of card previews, and the excitement of obtaining never-heard of cards before their release date is gonna help the game.
The actions that corporations take can be stupid or smart, evil or good. Profit is a valid motivator for corporations, but it does not have to be the only motivating force, and 'maximize profit at the expense of everything else' is, IMHO, an evil stance for a corporation to take. Not all corporations are ruthlessly, short-sightedly greedy.
The 'unequal footing' argument has already been blown out of the water because Wizards posts the full spoiler themselves, before the pre-releases.
Whether this helps the game or not, it is the wrong thing to do. To give a histrionic strawman argument, turning the middle east into a parking lot might help America...but it would be wrong.
Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.
He's not, he's bearing the burden of posting the playtesting cards. I don't fault wizards for wanting to stop playtesting cards from being leaked, but if they think the game would be better or more profitable without set spoilers then IMO they're wrong.
My decks:
Standard - MUC, Glittering Wish Control, Battle of Wits
Extended - White Rock, UW Control, Train Wreck
Legacy - SI, UbaStax, CounterSlivers
Vintage - Manaless Ichorid, Flash, Gush-a-Tog
Highlander - Burn, MUC
I test on MWS!
I'm tired of people saying this. It is not about how little WotC stands to gain, but rather, that if they go through with this they have the burden on their shoulders that THEY have financially ruined a man who supported their game for years, for the forseeable future. And not just that man, but his two young children and his wife as well. THAT is what makes this action greedy, heartless, and, in the opinions of most, wrong.
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Thanks for the objective observation of my comments, prot. I wonder if the people who make these accusations even keep track of the prevouse post, or even look at the quotes in MY post..lol.
Hannes, the owner of MTGS stated that more than 2% of the magic community looks at the site. I quantified that to 170,000 people approximately. The question was one that I, and my others have been asking for the last week or so. Just how much attention do spoilers really garner from the magic community? The answer could shed so much light on a lot of the arguments we have been having. If Wizards thinks that MTGS is some how culpable in the violation of its copyrights or trade-secrets it will sue MTGS regardless of if 100 or 100,000 people come to the site to look at the spoilers. Since I’m assuming the site is hosted in Zurich, who knows if they could get their hands on the sites records or not. I am just interested in quantifying what a boycott by every spoiler-reader would really do to Wizards.
As others have stated, everything on the card is copyrighted. The fair use clause comes into effect when you actually go out and buy cards. You have the right to discuss the cards, talk about what they do, who the artist is, what the name of the card is, etc. If you are a retailer that sells cards, Wizards puts out press-releases that contain pictures of boxes, packs, etc that are allowed to be used by retailers. They can also create scans of the cards they sell. This goes back to the ‘you take a picture of your jeep’ and put it in the paper to sell it argument.
What fair-use does NOT cover are products that are not even in production yet. You can’t claim fair-use for something that you cant even purchase in the first place. Playtest cards and magic spoiler information is protected because it is considered a copyrighted trade-secret of Wizards. Once Wizards themselves make their cards, or information about their cards publicly available, then fair-use can be claimed. Just remember, Wizards is the only entity that can make the decision, this is why they make all their employees sign the NDA. If Wizards puts out an add in Scrye that shows the text and picture of a card, then you can talk about it all you want because Wizards released that information themselves.
Anyone who would have direct access to the playtest cards would have signed the NDA. There would either have to have been a Rainbow 6 operative that sneaked into R&D and took the pictures, or someone who was under a NDA told a 3rd party, and then that party told Daron. Either way, Daron is still legally responsible for putting out protected content. Think about it this way, there is NO LEGAL way to acquire pictures of playtest cards unless Wizards releases them to the public themselves (which they have done in the past on their website). If someone steals a car, and then says hey borrow my car, and you get pulled over by the cops, do you think you wont be in trouble? You will be, but the cops will most likely ask you to tell them who gave you the car, and no doubt Wizards is asking Daron for information about his sources.
Lol! What kind of monopoly do you think Wizards has? There are TONS of other companies that put out CCGs. This is like saying, well Ford has a monopoly on the Mustang, Dodge should sue them so they can start producing the Mustang too…
Wizards wants to keep its cards secret until they decide they are going to be released to the public, they aren’t trying to stop other manufacturers from producing their own CCG’s.
Yeah, It is an interesting topic that we will probably never know the real answer to. Now my question is, if one of Hannes’ webmasters leaked the information to me, and I started posting it up on the net, would you think that was justified?! But anyway.. All of those people, whoever they are, will just see the spoiler when it gets posted on Wizards website the way they want it.
Then again, they may not even want this. Much of this case is about leaked playtest cards and not spoilers themselves. After the dust settles from this thing, Wizards may still allow unofficial spoilers to come out before they officially release theirs. This whole thing might just be an attack against Daron to weed out the spies at Wizards, or it could be the start of a greater campaign to shut down all unofficial spoilers completely.
How can you argue that you’re legally allowed to review a product that isn’t even supposed to be known to the public? A product that is only known about because someone broke the law and violated their NDA as well as laws concerning the regulation of trade-secrets? You could argue Fair Use after the illegal information has been posted all over the net, but even that argument might be pretty thin, and only tolerated because the cat is out of the bag, so to speak. Look at the case Apple vs Does, where Apple shut down a website for releasing its trade-secrets.
First off, do you know that these card shops don’t have permission from Wizards? Also, do you know that the images might be covered under Fair Use? The images are of cards that those companies own and are reselling. You are assuming to much and that hurts your argument that this is not about copyright.
As I said above, I think this could possibly be a move to stop all spoilers in general. The first thing you would logically do to start this process off is to go after the head of spoilers, Daron. Again, time will tell if this is just about the playtest cards, or if this is a move against any leaked trade-secrets owned by Wizards/Hasbro.
This is most likely the reason why they are using the heavy handed tactics they are using against Daron. This still does not make what Daron did RIGHT, and it is not completely wrong in any sense, it’s morally wrong, but not defensively or legally wrong. Cops use these tactics every day of ours lives to make one criminal roll over on another.
Are you going to sell all your cards and stop playing magic also? Your still supporting Wizards just by playing their game. Heck, this is a message board for magic players, are you going to delete your account on here? That would be the ultimate sign of conviction to your anti-wizards boycott.
What gave you this idea? Wizards releases spoiler cards themselves during the weeks leading up the pr-release. They also post the full spoiler themselves that Friday. Wizards just wants to control their information themselves, and stop any 3rd parties from releasing information that they did not intend to be released at that time. People keep acting like you will never see a spoiler again in your life. You will.. it will just be released by Wizards. No one argues that not having a spoiler out 2 months ahead of the set release hurts profits. We are just talking about time here, not the removal of any spoilers. Besides, Fair Use would protect you if you wanted to created your own spoiler after the set was released anyway. This is about protected information that Wizards wants to control themselves. It is also about spies inside Wizards who need to be rooted out.
$90,000 is not financial ruin. It's not like the guy is going to be out on the streets. He's got plenty of inventory to sell and it's likely that the amount will be reduced.
I don't see why you all are outraged by Wizards sueing this guy. When I got back into Magic I found it very suprising that these spoilers existed. I know if Wizards was my company I would of certainly done something about this much sooner.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright - General copyright info
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_copyright_law - Copyright law specific to the United States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use - Information about the doctorine of Fair Use
So there is no confusion... no, I am not an attorney but I do have some legal training and a reasonable understanding of the issue. I will do my best to clear up the confusion.
Anything unique to Magic is copyrighted. The card design, layout, art, fictional names, mechanics, templating, rules text, etc., are all unique to the game and are copyrighted materials. Talking about copyrighted materials is fair use. The link to the fair use article I posted explains where the legal lines are drawn. In this case, I believe the underlying issue is the fourth factor: effect on a work's value. It is likely that Wizards can make the case that unauthorized reproduction of leaked spoilers negatively impacts their sales. If that is the case, then fair use probably will not be an acceptable defense.
I might be wrong, but I don't believe this is true. U.S. law protects the public performance of a copyrighted work, but not a private one. You can sing to yourself all you want, but you cannot stand up on a park bench and throw an impromptu one-man Broadway review to an adulating crowd.
This is not accurate. Using the names of Magic cards in your article is, in fact, a copyright infringement but it is not illegal because it is considered fair use. You are also mistaken about the nature of a copyright in that it is independent of media used. If a song is released on a CD and you copy it and distribute it as an MP3, that is copyright infringement. Changing the format does not change the protected material. Similarly, reproducing a Magic card in electronic or even text-based form does not change the protected material. So a card does not have to be forged (which is what you're describing) to violate the copyright.
Colors are not and cannot be copyrighted. The use of a certain color in a certain product or package design can and is. Cadbury cannot copyright purple. They can copyright the purple-based design of their foil packaging.
You are absolutely correct.
What some companies try to do is irrelevant, whether or not fair use is upheld is relevant. I agree that a fair use argument could be plausible, but whether the fight is one rancored_elf wishes to risk losing is entirely his call.
I'd tend to agree, but what is the alternative? Short of firing everyone who has any access whatsoever to unreleased product information (which is not feasible), how can they handle the problem internally? While it may be better for their PR to find a way, it's much easier to deter people outside the company from posting leaked information. It may be a bullyish tactic, but it it gets the job done. You are welcome to disagree, but I think calling WotC "evil" is going too far.
I agree, and that's what bothers me most about the lawsuit. Are they within their legal rights? Absolutely. Do any of the rationales they've given hold water? Nope. A little straight-talk from WotC about their motivations instead of sugarcoating would be nice.
It's hard to disagree with that, but at the same time I don't get the impression that this has come as any surprise to rancored_elf. He may face financial ruin, which seems unfair and excessive, but that was his choice and he knowingly took that risk.
This is actually not true, but it is trickier. But I agree with everything else you say.
I would like to finish by saying that if the ultimate argument in support of rancored_elf is that it is unfair to take such severe financial action against him then I say: put your money where your mouth is. There are 9,266 resistered users on this forum and many more visit the website. If everyone who visits the site donated $10 out of their Magic budget, rancored_elf could easily pay any judgement against him as well as his legal fees and get on with his life.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
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They don't need to be acquired illegally to be infringing.
If this is the case, then I think R_E will end up going up the creek. If all their employees need to do is send stuff anonymously, then I don't see how "they've been warned," as you say. It would suggest that they'll get off scot free. I think it's more likely that if R_E doesn't know who leaked the cards, Wizards will look to crush him as an example to anyone else who may try posting spoilers in the future.
You're misunderstanding what journalism is. Again, to repeat myself again, it's not protected speech to print more than a line or two of, for example, a Harry Potter book in USA Today. What you call "journalism on Magic cards," any judge or intellectual property lawyer worth his or her salt would call "massive copyright infringement."
Again, that is not the standard. The standard is not whether they would be harmed, but whether their copyrights were infringed.
Copyrights and patents are, in rough and ready terms, analagous to temporary monopolies designed to allow authors of intellectual property to profit from their creations. So, in short, that lawsuit would be laughed out of court.
I think gravity might play a role in allowing the world to function, so copyright infringement, at the very least, isn't "the only thing."
Movie critics and book reviews are allowed to refer to small amounts of copyrighted content in this manner. I remember watching a commentary track on an episode of The Simpsons where the writers and producers talked about how much of _A Streetcar Named Desire_ they could quote without facing a lawsuit.
This just isn't fair use. Refer to PatentAttorney's posts earlier in the thread. Wishing doesn't make it so.
Wizards is not required to enforce their copyright in a way that you consider consistent or fair. Basically, copyright law says that Wizards can use their intellectual property the way they want. It appears that they're fine with discussion of cards that have been released, but playtest cards, and perhaps spoilers in general nowadays, cross the line for them. I don't disagree that Wizards is looking to frighten (and fire and probably sue) their employees who are infringing on their copyrights, but that doesn't mean that it's not about copyright.
The argument would be that the cards don't have unique copyrights, since cards are not sold individually by WotC. It would be very much like taking a picture of several pages of manuscript from whatever level of completion is to be had for the next Harry Potter book. She could not reasonably claim that each page is a unique copyright infringement.
Of course, the worst consequence would be that he'd have to stop obtaining these leaks, and we'd all be left in the dark. I would rapidly lose almost all my interest in the game, if that happened.
I suppose the best argument they can make is through Fair Use. I feel like Entrapment would be the fairest case to make, but that would never stick. It's really frustrating that it looks like the whole case is based on a setup. R_E's actions were never as blatant as posting playtest cards, and if he'd known for sure that that's what they were, I'd be willing to bet he wouldn't have posted them at all.
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Movies, novels, and computer games are all reviewed before public release, and not always as part of a publisher-sponsored preview process.
But they can and are trademarked, which is what I wrote. A different application of property rights, but one that IMHO is just as outrageous. Cadbury has trademarked a specific hue of purple.
You're absolutely correct. Whether or not spoilers constitute Fair Use is a complicated question, and one that we'd need a judge to decide. But Wizards decision to attempt enforcement of copyright against spoilers is entirely within their rights.
However, it is entirely within *my* rights to decide where to spend my money, and if I see a company being inconsistent or unfair then they lose my business.
Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.
Well, how is it supposed to appear to be a risk if Wizards had let him post rumours and spoilers for YEARS before finally taking suit?
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*Sigh* Yes, trademark is the appropriate term to use. But no, you're still completely wrong. First of all: Cadbury's trademark of the color purple is filed only in New Zeland and Australia, so it is completely irrrelevant to the discussion. Second: Even in that case, the trademark applies only to chocolate marketing. Cadbury does not have a trademark on the color purple, they have a trademark on using the color purple to package and market chocolate. This is relevant because it works the same way in the U.S. For example, Coca-Cola and Target are both brands that use the color red to distinguish their product. They can both have a trademark on red because they are not in direct competition with one another and one company's branding does not interfere with the other. On the flip side, Pepsi cannot design a primarily red can because they are in direct competition with Coke. While this law does protect the branding of a company, it also protects the consumer from being tricked into believing a product is something it is not.
If you drive down the same stretch of road at 15 miles per hour over the speed limit for years is that a valid defense when you finally get a ticket? No. If RE truly had no idea his actions were illegal then he has my sympathy, but the impression I get is he knew full well he was treading in dangerous waters and continued posting spoilers despite the risk. The fact that he got away with it for years is no defense. I truly hope he makes it through this as unscathed as possible, but he's far from a blindsided victim.
I might also add that the economy and game environment are always changing. It's quite possible that for many years the spoilers didn't hurt or even helped WotC's business. That doesn't mean they have no right to take action if leaks start to hurt the business. Another possibility is that spoiler leaks transformed from a minor nusance into a widespread and out-of-control problem, prompting WotC to take action. Another possibility is that the people at WotC don't have a problem with leaked spoilers, but the powers that be at Hasbro are forcing them to take stronger measures to protect their intellectual property (which I think is a likely scenario). Without an official and thorough explanation of WotC's motives (which we may never get) it is unfair to pass judgement.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
Google has an image search program. It pulls up thumbnails of images from across the web. One company (a porn site) has users pay for the full-sized images. They sued Google to stop the thumbnails, claiming that Fair Use did not apply. The judge reluctantly agreed. He even wrote in his decision that, "The court reaches this conclusion despite the enormous public benefit that search engines such as Google provide".
Go here for some links and discussion of the Google situation.
So...someone provided a public good. The copyright holder sued. The courts agreed. The copyright holder is legally within their rights. But their actions are morally wrong because they are working against the public good. Except for the fact that the plaintiffs here will not bankrupt the defendant, it looks a lot like WotC vs. Rutter to me.
Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.
I find this very hard to belive. When movies and books are reviewed it is always with the permission of the publisher or movie house. When video games are reviewed it is a little different because there are alpha/beta copies floating around that allow people to get some insight. But as far as books or movies go I find it almost impossible that someone would see the material unless it was from an illegally leaked source. When these leaks happen, like in the case of the Harry Potter books or movies like The Hulk or Starwars III, the parties that held the copyrights to media in question used the courts to track down the offenders. The actual reviewers of the movies and books were not sued but that did not make the illegal content somehow protected.
I think the cart is being put in front of the horse on this one. You are arguing the instant some leaked material is reviewed on the net, that material is then protected by Fair Use and person (or people) who obtained that illegal information are no longer legally accountable for its dissemination. What is done with the spoiler information after it is obtained has no bearing on someone’s culpability in violation of copyright.
This is almost laughable. Look at Darons past history over the last 5 years. He has knowingly distributed information he KNEW to be obtained illegally, and protected by copyright. Now you come along and after he finally gets sued for what he is doing, you expect us to believe that he really wouldn’t have done any of it if he knew the cards were really? Come on… I feel for what the guy is going through, but anyone that tries to argue that Daron didn’t know what he was doing was illegal in so many ways, is just ignorant of the case.
The RIAA and the MPAA let filesharing of music and movies go on for years and years before they decided to file suit. Does this make their lawsuits invalid? The way it appears to me is that Wizards either thought there was no net-effect from spoilers being released and now there is some negative effect. Or, Hasbro has come to the conclusion that it is mad about its internal leaks and wants to shut down any release of trade-secrets.
The first point would be that Wizards own forums are the largest magic forum on the net. So if you kept exactly the same situation as you describe, but the spoilers are released on WIZARDS site when THEY want them released, instead of on this site when Daron decideds to release, what is the difference? People will still come to Wizards site to look the spoiler, and they will still come to this and other forums to discuss the cards. It wont be any different than it has been in the past.
The bad thing about this case is how Wizards is going after Daron with such intensity, in a way that is really meant to be damaging to him. I just don’t understand where people get this idea that Daron and the websites that publish his spoilers have so much more right to their publication than Wizards own website should. Wizards should have every right to release its own spoiler information whenever it sees fit, and should be able to stop other people from violating its rights. Yes, Wizards never wanted this right before, but now they do. We won’t be losing spoilers or our ability to discuss them in anyway; we will just be getting the spoiler from a different place. This is just fine with me, as long as they don’t destroy a mans life to implement their new policy.
What world are you living in? Money has been put above morality ever since civilization developed money as a concept. Corporations make morality easy to ignore because there is not ONE guy that does everything. Corporations like Hasbro are compartmentalized, so each part of the Hasbro body plays a little part in bringing Daron to justice, but the full moral implications never fully hit any of the parts. This is just how modern companies work. These types of corporate models are WHY things like Magic The Gathering have been so successful for so many years. I don’t know many places where money is not put above morality, possibly a commune in the forests of Oregon or Washington? I bet they don’t play magic in that commune though…
In a way you could argue that Daron put money (or power) above morality. He knew what he was doing was morally wrong, but he still went ahead with it because it brought him attention, and the power that came with that attention. It allowed whole websites to be built around the information he provided, and it even allowed him to start his own website selling magic cards. Do I fault Daron or MTGS for doing this? Hell no I don’t. I would do the same thing, but the consequences of your actions will eventually have to be answered for, regardless of how malevolent the offended party is being.
Id hate to sound like an example Nazi, but the difference is that every time you go down that street 15 mph over the speed limit, the same cop is watching you and he never says anything. What is the cop's rationale to give you a ticket now after letting you speed for years?
Too late.;)
If someone robs a bank (I have to use the on-foot method to get my point across) and is running away from the cops.In the process they come throw the bag at me and keep running.If one of the officers see this and asks me for the bag i can't say "Bug of he gave me the bag".I would get arrested too.This is no different from what Daron did.
Yes it sucks that someones going to get smashed hardcore because of this.I would want to happen to me or anyone i know.Just because people don't want it to happen to him dosen't mean its not going too.
I think its intresrting how hes being a martyr,but not a good martyr
Martyr
1) One who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce reilgious principles.
2)One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief,cause or principel.
3) a)One who endures great suffering: a marytr to arthritis.
b)One who makes a great show of suffering to arouse sympathy.
Lets see......
1)Well that out because this isn't about reiligon.
2)That ones out too because hes not trying to do any of the above mentioned things.
3)a)Well he will be suffer if he has to pay the 90K,it just won't be physical.
b)Hmmmm......yeah thats the one.
So how is that suppose to make him a hero again?
BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
I was just gonna just lurk this thread, but this guy really needed to be responded to.
Okey, Lets assume Daron makes the avg CA$ per year. That number is roughly CA$50,000 a year. Lets convert that into US...roughly $US 43,500. Now lets take out the avg Canadian income tax out of his paycheck...this number is 48.2% (ouch), i suspect his rate is actually less. So lets just drop it to an even 40% for the sake of good math. Thats $US 26,100 income for Darron to live off of. Which with kids and a wife...isnt too good. Thats below poverty level by US standards amd probably moreso in Canada.
Even if Darron gave 100% of what he made, It would take him nearly 4 years to pay it all off.
Wizards is saying R_E had what was that word...undue enrichment, so basicly, they may be asking him to stop selling his cards. So he`d loose a revenue stream there.
Please dont comment on things you know nothing about, it will save us alot of time.
Seeing as you or I dont know how much he makes, but considering hes a nurse, considring he has a family, considering he cant even pay for a lawyer, i think that is pretty much a good assumption that hes not rolling naked in money when he gets home at night.
If you use Frank Karsten`s Online Tech to see how popular a specific deck is, I just made it twice as efficient. You`re welcome.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/fk23 (read the end)
And Flores is apparently jelous....
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mf130 (read the first real paragraph)
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060222-6234.html
I know its a bit off topic but i found it informative. enjoy.
That is exactly right. For years, Wizards has made it known they are aware of leaks, and of spoilers, and have done nothing about them. Not even so much as politely asked RE to stop. Out of the blue, not only are they not asking him to stop, they're out to ruin the lives of himself and his family.
While they might be the largest, any poster with a sense of self-respect can tell you the WotC boards are a COMPLETE JOKE. It is overrun by so many noobish, and retarded posters, it makes one want to take a sledgehammer to the server the forums are hosted on.
Also to note, MTGNews is about 1/3 the size of MTGcom's boards in terms of # threads, # posts, and # members. In little over a year, MTGS is slowly approaching 1 million posts (1/6th of what the Wizards boards have after... how long?).
Oh, and Daron never has had the full spoiler and simply leaked when he felt. He posts items as he recieves them, and in no way can he guarantee a single one of them is correct. It just happenes that they do tend to be correct.
[KalmWave] [Last.FM]
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The reason: those three ACUTAL playtest cards.
Ok speaking of not commenting about things you know nothing about, I'd like to take a look at your math...
By your estimation, an average person in Canada makes $50,000 canadian, $43,500 american, loses 40% in taxes dropping to $26,100 american, which is below the poverty level in both the U.S. and Canada.
If this were true, then the average person in Canada would be living below the poverty line. Um, hello? Makes no sense. I'm not sure where you got your statistics (or if you just made them up), but I can assure you that less than half of Canada is living in poverty. (FYI, the number is closer to 20%, based on a few sites I looked at).
Possible errors:
1. the tax rate is much lower than %40
2. the tax had already been accounted for in the $50,000 statistic
3. you just made your numbers up
Don't get me wrong though, I agree with most of the rest of what you're saying. Math's a little off though...
-oarick, stat major-
My decks:
Standard - MUC, Glittering Wish Control, Battle of Wits
Extended - White Rock, UW Control, Train Wreck
Legacy - SI, UbaStax, CounterSlivers
Vintage - Manaless Ichorid, Flash, Gush-a-Tog
Highlander - Burn, MUC
I test on MWS!
Indeed, it is those that spawned it. But, as anyone who actually saw when Daron posted the playtest cards can testify to, he himself was pretty sure that they were fake. For the most part, a healthy portion of the site thought the same thing until WotC went "omgwtfbbqsuere".
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