[/font]I'm just trying to see if you would really demand that Wizards write R_E a formal C&D letter before suing, when their dislike of leaks is well-known in the online Magic community, where R_E is being described as a pillar.
[FONT=Courier New]Well, according to R_E, he never received any sort of cease and decist, that was the least Wizards could have done before suing him.[/FONT]
And...you dispute some of those statements...? Or not?[FONT=Courier New]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]My point was just to show how one sided the article was. Maro gave no explanation as to how leaks lose them money, no actual account of any players who actually dislike leaks (and for one who dislikes them Im sure there are two that enjoys them), and no mention of how the spoiler essentially gives them loads of free marketing. [/FONT]
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Well, according to R_E, he never received any sort of cease and decist, that was the least Wizards could have done before suing him.
He shouldn't need a C&D. Anyone who is as involved in the online Magic community as RE should know that Wizards dislikes spoilers. It's practically common sense.
Do you really think it would've made a difference? Either:
RE would've ignored the letter, and gotten sued anyway, or
RE would've posted that Wizards was bullying him into stopping with a C&D request, and we'd be having this same conversation.
Granted, it makes a difference to RE, but Wizards still comes off as a corporate bully.
question is how many unique hits does this site generate during spoiler season, not only that but how many hits do other sites that get the spoilers from here get during spoiler season. i think that may give us a clear view of exactly how many people come to see spoilers. in fact some of you stated that internatonal players do not read spoilers this is thrown out by the fact the french sighned pititions at the gp prerealease. as did other internation prs. i think thier are alot more out there then you give credit for. i bet almost as many peeps know RE by name as they do finkle or kai, now thats numbers. and you HAVE TO go by the 20/80 rule
20 percent of the people produce 80 percent of your income dedicated buyers most of them are pro or simi pro or pro wantabee (like me) who follow spoiler season religiusly to get the so called edge
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He shouldn't need a C&D. Anyone who is as involved in the online Magic community as RE should know that Wizards dislikes spoilers. It's practically common sense.
Do you really think it would've made a difference? Either:
RE would've ignored the letter, and gotten sued anyway, or
RE would've posted that Wizards was bullying him into stopping with a C&D request, and we'd be having this same conversation.
Granted, it makes a difference to RE, but Wizards still comes off as a corporate bully.
or option 3, he could of noted wizards asked him to stop and bowed out gracefully, sure we would be steamed but hell its understandable and i woudl not of lost any respect for my former beloved game
The author, William Spaniel, hits the proverbial nail on the head. I really think those of you that advocate Wizards' right to do this should read that and kindly go mute. Its disrespectful. While I respect your opinions, I think you're being heartless, and that's enough. Tell you what, next time you make a mistake (and we ALL do) remind me to be as unsupportive of your plight as you have been of Daron's. So what if he posted spoilers? Wizards has had many chances to tell him and those that helped him to stop. Did they? No. Do you really think Daron knew what he was doing was wrong? I don't. Especially when he wasn't told not to. Yes, Wizards publically stated years ago that they did not like spoilers, but they never said those posting them should stop or be sued. Again, I'd like to say that I do respect your opinions... but only because you're entitled to them. Let's all just let it go and let those that know the law, deal with the law.
The thing is, the discussion travels - largely - in circles. People are currently plying in either two directions. One, trying to outwit the law, and two, complaining that Wizards Shouldn't Have Done This.
Well, without any moral imperative, I can't see how being a visible thief somehow exempts one from still being, well, you know, a thief. As a writer, if someone stole my book and broadcast it over the 'net before I could release it, I'd be very angry. Consider the O-Gaming leagues that are basically stealing Magic wholesale from its provider - and thanks to RE's spoilers, can do so ahead of the rest of the online community, and, in some cases, ahead of the offline community.
It's phenomenally disrespectful to wizards to presume that your idea of 'nice' somehow takes precedent over their value of 'right'. I will lay you odds that Wizards has had to lay employees off over this kind of thing. Wizards are fed up with the leaks and have every right to stop it. You think this is the first thing they've done? They've made multiple public announcements, many of which sum up to 'Don't leak, since we consider it illegal.'
But being, I dunno 'nice' means that Daron can defy that? Shucks! Remind me next time I shiv an infant to make sure I'm a nice guy to a group, so they can support me in this time where I clearly need it, being a blameless lamb before the slaughter. Because, you know, I'm nice.
I bear no ill will to Daron. I really do. But the community surrounding him sickens me in its incestuously sycophantic fawning. The sort of people who will ignore the rights of those people who They Don't Like. It's the same kind of Not-Thinking-Things-Through unprincipled attitude that led to women not being allowed to vote, or gays not being allowed to marry.
I see a lot of Bush-bashing on MTGS...
And here in this thread, I see the same kind of intolerance. Except instead of being homosexual or female, the people you're picking on happen to be employed. Well, I can see why we'd want to hate on them so much.
If this gets deleted, I won't be too surprised - but it will just be yet another sign of the problem. Support Daron, do. I really do think that the guy's life is going to be rough and he will need his friends. But he does not deserve to be above the law because you're his friend.
He shouldn't need a C&D. Anyone who is as involved in the online Magic community as RE should know that Wizards dislikes spoilers. It's practically common sense.
Right, but 'common sense' doesn't have a legal precedent.
What you are saying is analogous to policemen not mirandizing individuals as they are being arrested, because the overwhelming presence of "reading people their rights" in popular television shows such as Law and Order should illustrate to people that they have those rights.
For example, if you were repetedly kicking me, and I wanted you to stop, I wouldn't put a post-it on your bathroom wall, where you might or might not notice it. Regardless of the fact that I expect you, as a human being, to avail yourself of those facilities, I would put a note directly into your mailbox, or I'd ask you to your face.
"Should Know" doesn't work under the law. "Did Know, and Ignored" does.
He may have known, but as WotC or it's parent company never expressly stated it to him, I don't think the announcements on magicthegathering.com have nearly the same legal standing as a C&D order.
People seem to be assuming that the summary judgement is a scare tactic, while I've seen RE's lawyer say that it isn't any kind of bargaining chip for a settlement.
Honestly, you guys should know better than me and you probably do, however, if the US does claim jurisdiction then as I understand it, it's the States laws that apply in the case. As such, despite the recent weakening of the supposed protection here, wouldn't RE be able to claim a protected source for the John Doe's they obviously are wanting him to divulge under one of the various shield laws?
Taking a ballpark guess at what the estimated attorneys fees are going to be in this mess on their side, I'd say that a summary judgement would be a 200,000$ bat to use to force him to waive his right, and divulge the sources.
Just some theorycrafting, but honestly what they're doing now looks like candyland compared to how bad they would look if RE invoked the shield law, and then they tried to sue. I mean, look at the flak the U.S. Govt caught over basically doing the same thing and they're Big Gov.
WotC is a vanilla 2/2 IMO compared to the overwhelming might of the entire press industry, who I honestly believe would get involved to some extent at that juncture simply because if RE's attempt to use a shield law was unsuccessful due to defeat of the law in court it'd basically make it an occurance of a really nasty civil precedent able to be made that could possible allow volleys of law suits to be made towards reporters.
Got all long-winded conspiracty theorist there, but what do you think?
1.: Could a Shield Law apply along with the rest of the US law.
2.: Would RE and his sources fall under said protection? (I know he'd fall under the proposed Free Speech Protection Act of 2005, but I'm not as well-versed in each individual state law)
3.: Would it be possible for WotC to waive all monetary damages after the fact, as long as RE divulged all knowledge of said leaks to their satisfaction?
After that, one more question/comment. I won't argue for a second that Fair Use hasn't been eroded into near uselessness. As an aside, I will say it's only a matter of time before the DMCA gets struck down as it should be. At any rate, despite the erosion of fair use, it's obvious that RE's usage of the copyrighted material falls under either reporting or comment, if not both. So that basically means it comes down to the other four qualifiers correct?
the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
the nature of the copyrighted work;
the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
One is going to basically come down to whether or not it was for profit or not. He's not making a salary by reporting them, and he doesn't pre-sell cards until after the spoiler is already on the WotC website. Basically, I don't see one is that hard of a case to prove.
Two is kinda iffy for me as I'm not really sure what it speaks of as far as Nature goes, it seems almost as if this would start falling into trade secret territory, but as I recall that isn't what they're charging him with so...
Three seems like another possible slam dunk, but could also go another way. On one hand, he's showing 3 cards out of a 100+ card set. At worst he was sharing 3% of the new set, not withstanding the amount of changes that would be done to the cards shown lowering the final total even further. However, I suppose it could also be interpreted as him showing 100% of 3 cards.
Four looks like it would be a he said/she said scenario except WotC has more than the ability to cook the books and chart some pies to make it look like it has a detrimental effect much great than it does (See RIAA/MPAA vs US citizens)
I guess my question on this part is, do I have any sort of key misunderstanding of the facets of the applicability of fair use in this scenario, and I know it's somewhat frowned upon for at least RE's lawyer, but if the patent zombie could speak up and let me know in his professional opinion what he thinks the chances on each qualifying argument are?
It's an unfair system in an unfair world. But there is not much we can do about it. For the most part, R_E's supporters realize that this is frivolous law and that Wizards/Hasblo are using their hulking power to try to crush someone who has done what amounts to going into his mothers kitchen and stealing a paper towel.
Most of us look at this case with disgust, because it simply is disgusting that they will probably get away with it. Is what he did against the law? Maybe. That is for a judge/jury to decide. But in the end, this is simply a company trying to crush a person with its pocketbook. No more, no less.
The author, William Spaniel, hits the proverbial nail on the head.
All he says, admittedly, are variations on "Shame on you, Wizards!" The only reason he offers for condemning them is that they "ruined one guy's life," which, near as I can tell, hasn't actually happened yet. Personally, I hope it doesn't, but that doesn't mean that Wizards is in the wrong here.
I really think those of you that advocate Wizards' right to do this should read that and kindly go mute. Its disrespectful. While I respect your opinions, I think you're being heartless, and that's enough.
Honestly, despite what the author of that piece thinks about the lawsuit, he mentions in his postscript that it's "absurd" of R_E to suggset he didn't enrich himself from the spoilers. I don't see the disrespect in suggesting that it's within Wizards' rights to go after someone who was enriching himself, probably illegally, by trading off their intellectual property.
I don't really see why reading a chain of "SHAME ON YOU WIZARDS" should be enough to deprive people of the ability to express their opinions, even when they happen to disagree with yours.
Regarding the idea that people who don't support R_E 100% are "heartless," I can't speak for everyone who disagrees with you, but I don't want to see the man ruined. However, there's a difference between having a heart and believing that an individual who does wrong and breaks the law should get off scot free simply because he's one man and the victim is a large corporation.
Tell you what, next time you make a mistake (and we ALL do) remind me to be as unsupportive of your plight as you have been of Daron's.
It's true that we all make mistakes, and I sympathize with R_E precisely for that reason. However, we all have to face the consequences of our mistakes as well. I hope that the consequences don'tt end up being devastating for R_E, but that doesn't absolve him of responsibility for what he did.
So what if he posted spoilers?
This has been covered in detail elsewhere in the thread. Obviously, the lawsuit and everything else is so what that he posted spoilers. If Wizards thought they were good for their company, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. I suspect that they know more about making money producing the game than we do.
Wizards has had many chances to tell him and those that helped him to stop. Did they? No. Do you really think Daron knew what he was doing was wrong? I don't.
Niether of us can answer the question of what R_E felt about what he was doing. However, based on what better informed people have said, the standard is not whether he knew his actions were infringing, but whether a reasonable person should have known that the actions were infringing.
If you're going to say that copyright infringement in this case isn't "wrong," then you're free to make that moral case, but it doesn't really matter in terms of the law. Wishing doesn't make it so.
Especially when he wasn't told not to. Yes, Wizards publically stated years ago that they did not like spoilers, but they never said those posting them should stop or be sued.
I don't understand this logic at all. First, as I understand it, the lawsuit is not about revealing spoilers so much as the playtest cards. That was a new development that Wizards did not know about. Second, it's not Wizards' responsibility to warn people who infringe on their copyrights before taking action against them. What R_E was doing was obviously infringing, and any reasonable person should realize that without being told by Wizards.
Furthermore, it's not just Wizards that could pick up the phone to call R_E. If R_E wanted to ensure that he was safe from legal action, he could have approached Wizards for permission to use their intellectual property. He did not. Why? I can't say for sure, but I think it's because he knew from the start that Wizards would tell him to stop, and then he would either have to do as they said or face legal action.
So this one goes both ways. Why are you taking Wizards to task for failing to politely inform R_E that he was breaking the law when they had no legal responsibility to do so, but letting R_E off the hook for failing to politely ask permission when he DID have the legal responsibility to?
Again, I'd like to say that I do respect your opinions... but only because you're entitled to them.
I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here, but it doesn't seem like you respect people who you call "heartless" and so forth.
Let's all just let it go and let those that know the law, deal with the law.
It seems like the people who know the law agree that Wizards has the right to take this action. Furthermore, if you don't like reading contrary opinions, you can skip over them or not read the thread at all. It's not our responsibility to say only that which makes you feel better.
Again, I feel for R_E. Ideally, I'd like to see an agreement reached that doesn't end up costing him a dime. Short of that, I very sincerely hope that he isn't ruined financially.
Having said that, it seems pretty clear to me where the law comes down in all this, and I don't see anything about this situation that calls for an exception to be made. The whole "journalism" and "civil disobedience" arguments ring very hollow to me, not only legally, where they have no merit, but in terms of common sense and ethics as well. (By the way, one of the main tenets of civil disobedience, as Thoreau wrote in his original essay, was that you accept the consequences of breaking the unjust law, i.e. if the law is unjust, then the place for a just man is prison.)
I feel like those excuses for the leaks are really code words for a point of view that says, basically, "I like spoilers and am entitled to them." Sadly, you're just not. Wizards makes a game that a lot of people want to buy, and they're entitled to make that game their way and to use their intellectual property the way they see fit.
The thing is, the discussion travels - largely - in circles. People are currently plying in either two directions. One, trying to outwit the law, and two, complaining that Wizards Shouldn't Have Done This.
Well, without any moral imperative, I can't see how being a visible thief somehow exempts one from still being, well, you know, a thief. As a writer, if someone stole my book and broadcast it over the 'net before I could release it, I'd be very angry. Consider the O-Gaming leagues that are basically stealing Magic wholesale from its provider - and thanks to RE's spoilers, can do so ahead of the rest of the online community, and, in some cases, ahead of the offline community.
It's phenomenally disrespectful to wizards to presume that your idea of 'nice' somehow takes precedent over their value of 'right'. I will lay you odds that Wizards has had to lay employees off over this kind of thing. Wizards are fed up with the leaks and have every right to stop it. You think this is the first thing they've done? They've made multiple public announcements, many of which sum up to 'Don't leak, since we consider it illegal.'
But being, I dunno 'nice' means that Daron can defy that? Shucks! Remind me next time I shiv an infant to make sure I'm a nice guy to a group, so they can support me in this time where I clearly need it, being a blameless lamb before the slaughter. Because, you know, I'm nice.
I bear no ill will to Daron. I really do. But the community surrounding him sickens me in its incestuously sycophantic fawning. The sort of people who will ignore the rights of those people who They Don't Like. It's the same kind of Not-Thinking-Things-Through unprincipled attitude that led to women not being allowed to vote, or gays not being allowed to marry.
I see a lot of Bush-bashing on MTGS...
And here in this thread, I see the same kind of intolerance. Except instead of being homosexual or female, the people you're picking on happen to be employed. Well, I can see why we'd want to hate on them so much.
If this gets deleted, I won't be too surprised - but it will just be yet another sign of the problem. Support Daron, do. I really do think that the guy's life is going to be rough and he will need his friends. But he does not deserve to be above the law because you're his friend.
i think you are reading far to much into the posts and quite possably just being theatrical to be heard. did you even think that post all the way through before you wrote it? i mean hell you jump on the community when you are sitting in the same place the spoiers are, and from what i can tell by your name and post number, you have been here a bit Talen Lee vbmenu_register("postmenu_861714", true);
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so what made you come here in may 2005? was it the spoilers? most likely. so you sit there and call us disrespectful to a company that just showed us how little it really cares about its coustomers?
seriusly would not 1 letter of cease and dissist of been sufficant? i think so. and wizards laying off employes is pretty much laughable to begin with. lay offs and such things do becoume public after awhile especialy ina large corporation. if anythign wizards has actuly grown in size scince hasbro came along
"It's the same kind of Not-Thinking-Things-Through unprincipled attitude that led to women not being allowed to vote, or gays not being allowed to marry."
strong words but little more then words. actuly both of those things, and i do not condone eather one of such, were well thoguht out, sadly, and based on the princables of the age. from what i can tell here most of the people on this fourm are intelligant people who are tryign to save the game we helped build. the spoilers ARE part of the history of the game. mabey they are just that history. but however it turns out RE is innocent untill proven guilty you make a huge leap stating he is. perhaps you should think out your posts before you write them.
That's some very pretty rhetoric and accusation you use, but it's not actually borne out by the facts.
I, as a writer, am protected by copyright law. I take great comfort in this. I am, without concious effort from myself, protected by the international law of the Berne convention. My wife, an artist, is also protected. This is important to me. If I was suing a multimilliondollar corporation for their using of my material, I lay odds people would morally weigh around me.
However, because the situation is reversed - the people doing the suing who were nonetheless hurt even in the abstract - people are weighing in alongside RE like he doesn't deserve what's happening.
You want to help RE? Buy cards from him. Overpay for them. Give the guy a call. Listen to his problems. Be a friend. But if your friend gets nicked for stealing a car, you have to accept that he's going to have to pay for that crime. You can't pontificate on a forum about how 'wrong' the situation.
The second you dehumanise a company, the second you think that Darron deserves treatment different to the company because he's Just One Guy and he's blue-collar, that's the exact same mindset that leads to racism and sexism. It's discriminating against someone based on their differences. And these people have every legal right to what they're doing.
Claiming otherwise is saying one law for the people, another law for the rich. And I find that idea abhorrent.
Edit: Also, yes, I came to MTGSalvation from MTGNews following RE and the spoiler. Mid BOK, I believe, so I've only been here about a year. And that's all that drew me. I was of the understanding the spoiler was in fact sanctioned by Wizards. Some elementary research I did at the start of this whole debacle proved me wrong.
I won't deny I hanker for spoilers. But I'm not going to claim I have a special right to them because I want the things.
I cannot support a company that goes after someone in the manor Wizards is going after R_E. I just cannot.
Do you really expect us to believe that you follow this same doctrine for every product you consume in your life? What kind of car do you drive, what kind of clothes do you wear? What kind of food do you eat, hell.. what web-browser are you using? Almost every company out there has probably used tactics like these (or worse in most cases) to protect its products and investments. I just dont buy this as an honest argument.
I can't speak for hmj, but I do follow this doctrim for products that are produced by a company whose actions I find reprehesible. I happen to know a large number of people who knowingly and actively exercise the power of their check books to register either their agreement or disagreement with the policies of corporations. I may not apply this principle to every single product that I purchase nor do I activily seek a yearly annual report on the activities of every company who’s products I buy. That is completely beside the point in this particular situation.
It is the bottom line that these companies and almost any company takes orders from and if a company policy is adversly affecting the bottom line it WILL be change. Make no mistake Wizards/Hasbro is taking a chance here and risking allienating a large number of their customers. They are banking on the fact that those customers will be swayed by the spin campaign the company is currently engaged in as well as the fact that Magic players are both fanatical about the game and most likely not going to make the symbolic effort to boycotte thier product.
By scoffing at the mere mention of someone claiming to do just that, boycotte Wizards and Hasbro products out of principle, you are trying to marinalize the effort and it’s effectivness. Well I can tell you from personal experience that you are wrong. Voting with your wallet or check book is an effect way to register your opinion with a company and there are people who are willing to let their moral compass guild their buying habits. As I have already said I will not be purchasing any prodicts buy Wizards/Hasbro as a result of this and know persoanlly two other people who have as well. If there are others reading this who feel that they want to make a similar statement with their checkbooks I say more power to you and welcome aboard.
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First I would like to add my thanks to both patent attorney and Jay Shergill. Your concise input and knowledge in copy right law has greatly increased my understanding of what’s going on, much more informative than my hours of watching Perry Mason and Matlock.
To those against spoilers, get over yourselves and your higher morality. Spoilers have been a part of the game from the very beginning. Studying up on them before the prerelease is as much a gaming tactic as anything else. If you find this unfair that’s fine, look up the spoiler yourself. If you want to be surprised, then don’t look at the spoiler. But you can’t have it both ways, so don’t go wining that you’re not able to win as much because other people took the time to look up the spoiler. In fact if the prerelease is not fun because you’re not winning enough then maybe you have forgotten what magic is all about in the first place. Or maybe you’re just a lousy player and are using spoilers as a scapegoat. Perhaps if fairness is an issue you would also want to segregate all the players by skill level? So that first prerelease Timmy doesn’t have to play against any long time local champions. After all, playing against more experienced tournament hardened players is just as cheep as playing against someone who has read over the spoiler right? If it is really an issue you could ask your organizer to segregate the entire prerelease. I know my local area had the prerelease broken up into serious and casual flights (this actualy worked quite well). Of course the winnings for the casual were not as high, but if you’re just a casual player looking for some extra wins then that wouldn’t matter. And do note that the Wizards spoiler was posted BEFORE the rumor mill spoiler was completed.
I am kind of annoyed by the people treating Hasbro/WoTC as God. Unless you have some sort of particular insight into the inner workings of the Hasbro/WoTC psyche then you don’t know what they think. You don’t KNOW if they care about single individuals and you don’t KNOW if they do. Sure you can make up probability of what you think is more likely and what you think is good business, but that’s just making things up. On the same token those who say your going to boycott, stop saying you’ll make a huge difference. You might, but you don’t know that, you don’t even know how many people are boycotting. And reading over and over again that your guestimation is that WoTC is going to lose $90,000+ is just ridiculous. All you can say is how much you personally will hurt them. Though boycotting in and of itself is a personal and rather noble thing to do. I myself have boycotted McDonalds for nearly eight years. How much this hurts McDonald’s bottom line is probably miniscule. But I am sure Wendy’s appreciated the extra business my eight years has brought them. As far as magic is concerned, a boycott from me may cost them nearly $200 - $300 a year plus whatever singles I buy on the secondary market for my many casual decks. Over ten years with enough people sure, it may make a difference. But I am not going to boycott, and here is why. It is probably one of the greatest irony’s in this case that the best way to help Daron is to purchase magic cards from his store at www.rancoredelf.com. This invariably assists the very people who are suing him. But it still helps Daron. In fact I have made the vast majority of my 2005 and 2006 single purchases from him and will continue to do so. He has even been gracious enough to me to give me some store credit. So no, I am not going to boycott magic, but I may concentrate more on the casual gaming and my little pet decks, the lord knows I have enough of those on the backburners. Perhaps a greater Irony would be if Daron wins and counter sues and wins, the bulk of the money would find its way back to wizards anyway, unless Daron quit the game over this.
As far as the case is concerned I think there are two possible scenarios. Perhaps the lawyers could say how possible my interpretation is.
One: this seems very impersonal and rather standard. Hasbro is a big company. They have therefore most likely made this kind of lawsuit before, maybe many times. Probably to save a lot of money in the long run for themselves against real competitors like other toy companies. In fact I am willing to bet that they may have a filing cabinet in the back with a file full of copyright lawsuit papers that merely need a typewriter to add in the name. And that the same lawsuit would be filed against their main multi-billion dollar competitor as it would the average magic player sporting a magic related banner. As a big company they may even have a no-tolerance policy on leakers…like the no tolerance school policy on knives that nets the machete wielding social outcast as well as the honor student with the butter knife accidentally left in the back seat of her car (did she break the rules? Yes..suspension and a lost scholarship later….). I don’t think that it is the big guy stepping on the little guy as much as just a company following standard procedures and Daron getting caught up in the mix of it. It would be nice for the case to be treated as an individual case and for the big owner to fly to Daron’s house in his helicopter to have a heart to heart with Daron about this stuff, but big companies typically don’t spend the money or take the time to take a specific interest in every court case they file, or at least they did not in this case. I doubt the owner of Hasbro saw more than a footnote in a memo about this, if that. Basically the one policy fits all crap..
Or
Two: Wizards were getting really tired of Daron and his spoiler releasing. They new they had no case though so the heads of wizard made up a fake screen name and purposely leaked the material with the knowledge that, though Daron would be suspicious, he would still post them. They then proceeded to use this plant as a means to slam a heavy lawsuit against him, crush him, and make an example so that the rest of the world would never dream of posting rumors about a spoiler ever again. In the mean time they conscripted anti-daron naysayers to invade all forums and to raise as much decent as they can. <_< ß-shifty eyed look towards Talen Lee
A lot of people seem to be still hung up on if Daron is guilty or not. Hasbro thinks he is, Jay Shergill thinks he has a good case. That’s good enough for me. Besides, how many of us break the law and don’t consider it? I have had magic related paraphernalia as an avatar before, had dakon from HoMM as an avatar for years without permission, and I have downloaded music online. In real life terms I have sped constantly when I am behind the wheel, I have jaywalked a lot, add in a few broken international laws and I am a regular lifetime criminal. Though I doubt anyone would consider it in that light. I am sure that we all agree that IF what Daron did was really against the law it is defiantly not worth $90,000 by default.
Real Question: Now correct me if I am wrong but it seems that this default statement is merely a standard act to try to catch Daron off his feet, A first turn slith firewalker that has deadly potential but, as long as you respond, won’t kill you. And keep in mind that no matter how innocent we think Daron is he still would have paid the money if he and his lawyer didn’t come up with a response, still might. Well Jay Shergill thinks they have a case and they did send in a response. How often in a case like this does a Judge have a response and still opt for the default judgment?
Last Question; like I said above I think the default judgment is just a standard first turn tactic, which means if it is rejected by the judge, as we all hope, this is just the beginning. What can Daron expect to see happen after this?
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************************From Sound to Sea**********************
And I guess that I'm a lucky one for the truth of what I know. For my heart had not denied me and I have somewhere to go. I shall never be a prisoner of steel and glass and stone. If I leave, I will return again to my Rocky Mountain home.
Dude, if wizards are paying me for this, I would seriously like to know about it.
In all seriousness, what kinda evidence do you need that I'm not a corporate shill? I'm a writer over at SCG, my real name is available on their archive, and I'm currently looking for work. What do you want, my license?
Dude, if wizards are paying me for this, I would seriously like to know about it.
In all seriousness, what kinda evidence do you need that I'm not a corporate shill? I'm a writer over at SCG, my real name is available on their archive, and I'm currently looking for work. What do you want, my license?
lol, hey man that was suppose to be a joke. You know, the massive conspiracy theory thing, wasn't meant to be taken seriously. Though adds to the humor I suppose.
Daggertooth
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***Official Rune Master and Rational Extremest of The Called***
************************From Sound to Sea**********************
And I guess that I'm a lucky one for the truth of what I know. For my heart had not denied me and I have somewhere to go. I shall never be a prisoner of steel and glass and stone. If I leave, I will return again to my Rocky Mountain home.
Excuse me for saying this, but Rancored_Elf is becoming a martyr to his own ego. RE broke the law, like it or not. The distribution of copyrighted material without permission is illegal. Now, I imagine WotC wasn't too upset until the prototypes came out. And at this point, WotC has a legitimate complaint.
They are morally obligated to protect the integrity of their product. If they don't, the customers may very well suffer the consequences. And let me just say this. RE has knowingly helped people break contracts. He has willingly helped people break contracts. He has even, by the way he's talked on spoiler threads, pushed them for illegal information. That is called copyright theft. There are consequences for it. And the fact that he has a family is irrelevent. He should have thought about that before willfully violating WotC's copyright. There is no sense whining about it. I don't make moral judgements against Mr. Rutter. But Mr. Rutter needs to accept that what he did was illegal. The "poor me" ruse is annoying and ridiculous.
Look, I'm not a big surporter of this lawsuit. In fact it's slightly annoying to me and a little unecessary. What does annoy me is the self-righteous dribble that people here are buying into hand over fist. What I object to is the incredibly sleazy self-promoting "pity me" attitude that RE is putting forth.
His actions were probably illegal and probably amoral. So there really is no moral high ground to take in this lawsuit. It's a lawsuit plain and simple.
...
It's phenomenally disrespectful to wizards to presume that your idea of 'nice' somehow takes precedent over their value of 'right'. I will lay you odds that Wizards has had to lay employees off over this kind of thing. Wizards are fed up with the leaks and have every right to stop it. You think this is the first thing they've done? They've made multiple public announcements, many of which sum up to 'Don't leak, since we consider it illegal.'
But being, I dunno 'nice' means that Daron can defy that? Shucks! Remind me next time I shiv an infant to make sure I'm a nice guy to a group, so they can support me in this time where I clearly need it, being a blameless lamb before the slaughter. Because, you know, I'm nice.
I bear no ill will to Daron. I really do. But the community surrounding him sickens me in its incestuously sycophantic fawning.
...
Though this is kinda harsh choice of words I agree. Everyone wants to show some "automatic sympathy" without any background knowledge at all.
The example with the book is an apt one. Do you people think that to post the text of a book not yet published to P2P network is ok? I think it's safe to say that it certainly is not. Now, how exactly is posting information obtained from individuals that have broken their NDA different? And doing so for a long time with inaction from the involved party? I wonder.
Were there really no warnings at all? I don't know. Is building one's reputation in connection with online store based on possibly illegal info OK legally? I don't really know.
But I feel this was just last straw for WOTC, the effort to make an example
and I certainly don't know all the data they have gathered to open this lawsuit to say that there is no way for some guild to be involved...
And while I don't appreciate corporate bully and respect pressumtion of innocence, I won't go "R_E is innocent cuz I luv rumors and it helps the game and others have said so too".
THis case is unfortunate but I guess it could be expected...
Quote from HAWKEYE7 »
As I have already said I will not be purchasing any prodicts buy Wizards/Hasbro as a result of this and know persoanlly two other people who have as well. If there are others reading this who feel that they want to make a similar statement with their checkbooks I say more power to you and welcome aboard.
This would be ridiculous. I don't see how this lawsuit which we all have just broad infomation about is in any connection with the products. I don't think it is appropriate to look at WOTC as automatically guilty just for opening this case. It may be a shock for some but others have seen it coming. IMHO situation is not quite black and white and the case is not over. Do not let yourself be manipulated by either side...
I know for a fact that Magic is at its best these days and know that my boycott would be useless.
And IMHO while I don't mind reading rumors it would be nice not to push them into NDA violations and get along with worldwide magazines previews and such non-problematic sources...
I'm fairly sure that all the supporters of R_E can raise $90,000...
We can start a pledge thread here and on the Wizards boards...I'm fairly sure that we can get around whatever CoC rules exist against it...
If the charges actually go through then all R_E's supporters sending $20 would add up to a nice sum..
As I have already said I will not be purchasing any products buy Wizards/Hasbro as a result of this and know personally two other people who have as well. If there are others reading this who feels that they want to make a similar statement with their checkbooks I say more power to you and welcome aboard?
This would be ridiculous. I don't see how this lawsuit which we all have just broad information about is in any connection with the products. I don't think it is appropriate to look at WOTC as automatically guilty just for opening this case. It may be a shock for some but others have seen it coming. IMHO situation is not quite black and white and the case is not over. Do not let yourself be manipulated by either side...
If you have read my other posts in this thread discussion you will see that I am not saying WOTC is “guilty” for just opening this case. I have repeatedly stated that they maybe completely within their rights to file this case. I have also stated that I disagree with them doing so in the manner they have. It is the manner with which they have chosen to peruse this matter that I find reprehensible and that is what has prompted my decision to discontinue to be their customer. This case may not be black and white but the methods and actions WOTC have chosen to employ prosecuting it, in my opinion, certainly are.
Just my 2 cents.
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Look, I'm not a big surporter of this lawsuit. In fact it's slightly annoying to me and a little unecessary. What does annoy me is the self-righteous dribble that people here are buying into hand over fist. What I object to is the incredibly sleazy self-promoting "pity me" attitude that RE is putting forth.
You see, it is posts like these I find very odd. I mean Daron makes a casual post to update the community. In it he mentions his family which he does have and they probably concern him enough to talk about it. And instantly there are personal attacks against him. Sleazy? Self promoting? You got all that from Daron saying he has a family. Well I am sorry if it annoys you that people can show sympathy with Daron’s situation. Many are just seeing themselves in his shoes. Maybe this automatic hatred is just jealousy of the respect he has earned, or maybe those who make posts like this are simply hateful people with nothing better to do. I won’t presume to understand, Funny how they need to revert to name calling though. Your not the first to do this either.
The analogy with the book is incorrect. If a person was to copy your book then they have no reason to purchase your book at a later date. As said in the past, a play test card is not the product, just an image of the product. A better analogy would be if someone posted the first three pages of a chapter to preview a book without permission. Talen, if someone was a huge fan of your writing and somehow got a copy of a few non-sequential pages of your work to post as a preview on a site dedicated to your work, would you then sue?
Daggertooth
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***Official Rune Master and Rational Extremest of The Called***
************************From Sound to Sea**********************
And I guess that I'm a lucky one for the truth of what I know. For my heart had not denied me and I have somewhere to go. I shall never be a prisoner of steel and glass and stone. If I leave, I will return again to my Rocky Mountain home.
I like Daggertooth's rejection of the book analogy. I'm not commenting on its legal grounds, though. Seriously, these cards are worthless to people as they are. The value of WotC property is being able to produce them exclusively, not the materials and not the contents of the card. In fact, if I remember correctly the contents of all three cards were so generic - every line of text can be found on tens of other cards, sometimes hundreds. Nothing on there hadn't been released before. This is unlike a book, when the author should have the rights to original property that he is afraid someone else is jeopardizing his livelihood.
Thus Wizards sueing for intellectual property, regardless of its legality, is really sickening to me. I say this solely because of the process not for RE's sake, but maybe his sake is worthwhile too.
Now I think that Wizards has a right to not like spoilers. As I said earlier, I don't like spoilers (actually I wouldn't mind if Wizards made a widely publicized spoiler where it is fair for everyone, advertised in all the pre-release publicity). People like RE should respect that right and not coax or pass on the illegally publicized info. Yet, I just don't think litigation on RE is the correct answer to their own problem. However they can, finding out the sources on their own, and prosecuting to the fullest extent of the law (or possible obtainable monies) is the solution.
Btw, is suing the only way to establish that a statute of limitations hasn't passed - or could they, for example, file a complaint motion of some sort but tell a judge they are not ready to pursue litigation at this time?
Make no mistake Wizards/Hasbro is taking a chance here and risking allienating a large number of their customers. They are banking on the fact that those customers will be swayed by the spin campaign the company is currently engaged in as well as the fact that Magic players are both fanatical about the game and most likely not going to make the symbolic effort to boycotte thier product.
Wizards has taken many chances like this before. Take for example when they sued the makers of apprentice. The whole community was in uproar just like this. Everyone said they would stop buying product, etc. The real problem is that as much as we like to think we are representative of the magic community as a whole, we are not. Nothing anyone did over the Apprentice lawsuit made any difference, and nothing anyone does over Darons lawsuit will make any difference. The problem is the numbers just aren’t there. Wizards has to addictive of a product, and the boycotters are just to small in numbers. It sad to say, but even if half the online community stopped buying cards, it might not do anything at all.
As far as the spin-campaign, I’m not sure what you mean. Where is Wizards spinning anything? Their people have stated they are deciding to draw the line at prototype cards, and are exercising their right to protect their investments. We know they have not done little to stop the dissemination of spoiler information in the past, but we also know they have every right to do so now if they chose. It is a bitter pill to swallow for our community, but there is no spin except the spin coming from the supporters of Daron. All of the people defending Daron have good intentions, but they are using distortions, propaganda, and outright lies to try to make what he did seem right. We can argue morality and corporate insensitivity all we want, but most of the legality issues are mute.
Quote from Daggertooth »
I am kind of annoyed by the people treating Hasbro/WoTC as God. Unless you have some sort of particular insight into the inner workings of the Hasbro/WoTC psyche then you don’t know what they think. You don’t KNOW if they care about single individuals and you don’t KNOW if they do.
Well, we DO know that they don’t care about individuals if you look at their past history regarding the release of unsanctioned copyrighted material. Wizards has brought very few legal actions against anyone regarding its copyrights. Over the years and years spoilers have been leaked to the magic community, Wizards has never brought any legal action against the common magic player. If they cared about the single individual, then they would be sending out cease and desist orders to every person using their art for their sigs, and to every website that posts any unreleased spoiler info, etc. There lack of action means they chose to ignore what they consider trivial violations of their copyrights.
Quote from Daggertooth »
A better analogy would be if someone posted the first three pages of a chapter to preview a book without permission. Talen, if someone was a huge fan of your writing and somehow got a copy of a few non-sequential pages of your work to post as a preview on a site dedicated to your work, would you then sue?
Yes, I might if the text in those pages was not finalized. It could actulay hurt your final product if working copies of your book were circulated. Imagine getting copies of Lord of the Rings with Bingo Baggins as the main carcter, or Luke Starkiller in Starwars. I would defiantly sue in these cases because this type of information should be protected and kept secret until finalized. Another example might be the specs of a new car are leaked well before the design of the car is finalized. If the specs say the car is going to have a 450 horsepower engine and cost $20,000, the hype might huge. If the car maker then decides the final design of that car should call for a 300 horsepower engine, the whole campaign might be ruined because un-finalized information was leaked without their consent.
Quote from KrtZer0 »
I'm fairly sure that all the supporters of R_E can raise $90,000...
I doubt that Daron will ever need to pay $90,000. The money is a scare tactic to get what Wizards really wants. This is the crux of the whole argument. WHAT does Wizards want to gain from this whole thing. They know that they will piss off a small part of the online community (which doesn’t add up to much at all, but still), and might even get some bad press, but they still press on. I think they want one of three things.
1)They are pissed off about the leaked playtest cards and want to find out which employees are leaking this information. Daron represents the other side of the leak, so they are leaning hard on him to get the names, but in the end he won’t pay any money if hey reveals his sources.
2)They want to draw the line at playtest cards, and don’t really care about their internal matters as such, they just want to pick on Daron. (I find this more unlikely since there are unnamed coconspirators named in the suit)
3)Wizards wants to shut down the entire business of leaking any unofficial spoiler information and they are using this case to set precedent. They will hit Daron hard but back off in the end if they get him to agree not to reveal any more information. They will then put the word out that any other people/websites that reveal copyrighted material will be subject to similar suits.
If you have read my other posts in this thread discussion you will see that I am not saying WOTC is “guilty” for just opening this case. I have repeatedly stated that they maybe completely within their rights to file this case. I have also stated that I disagree with them doing so in the manner they have. It is the manner with which they have chosen to peruse this matter that I find reprehensible and that is what has prompted my decision to discontinue to be their customer. This case may not be black and white but the methods and actions WOTC have chosen to employ prosecuting it, in my opinion, certainly are.
Just my 2 cents.
Sorry for not to have read this whole huge thread but anyway: what manner exactly did they choose to resolve this? Filing a suit and deliver it to court? At first I thought the default judgment order was utter madness but reading something about it, it seems like a standart legal action...
What exactly do you know of any possible preceding steps they may have made? And why exactly do mix legal department od Hasbro with R&D of WOTC? It is your right to make a decision and stop buying products that are of the best quality in its existence but I believe that you're passing judgment based on incomplete information. Partly because the complete information wasn't meant for you. This is nothing personal as far as WOTC is concerned, I believe. THey just want these leaks and spoilers stopped, and still they have turned "blind eye" (not really blind, but...) to it for SEVERAL YEARS before taking action...
[FONT=Courier New]Well, according to R_E, he never received any sort of cease and decist, that was the least Wizards could have done before suing him.[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]My point was just to show how one sided the article was. Maro gave no explanation as to how leaks lose them money, no actual account of any players who actually dislike leaks (and for one who dislikes them Im sure there are two that enjoys them), and no mention of how the spoiler essentially gives them loads of free marketing. [/FONT]
Do you really think it would've made a difference? Either:
20 percent of the people produce 80 percent of your income dedicated buyers most of them are pro or simi pro or pro wantabee (like me) who follow spoiler season religiusly to get the so called edge
or option 3, he could of noted wizards asked him to stop and bowed out gracefully, sure we would be steamed but hell its understandable and i woudl not of lost any respect for my former beloved game
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The author, William Spaniel, hits the proverbial nail on the head.
I really think those of you that advocate Wizards' right to do this should read that and kindly go mute. Its disrespectful. While I respect your opinions, I think you're being heartless, and that's enough.
Tell you what, next time you make a mistake (and we ALL do) remind me to be as unsupportive of your plight as you have been of Daron's.
So what if he posted spoilers? Wizards has had many chances to tell him and those that helped him to stop. Did they? No. Do you really think Daron knew what he was doing was wrong? I don't. Especially when he wasn't told not to. Yes, Wizards publically stated years ago that they did not like spoilers, but they never said those posting them should stop or be sued.
Again, I'd like to say that I do respect your opinions... but only because you're entitled to them. Let's all just let it go and let those that know the law, deal with the law.
Well, without any moral imperative, I can't see how being a visible thief somehow exempts one from still being, well, you know, a thief. As a writer, if someone stole my book and broadcast it over the 'net before I could release it, I'd be very angry. Consider the O-Gaming leagues that are basically stealing Magic wholesale from its provider - and thanks to RE's spoilers, can do so ahead of the rest of the online community, and, in some cases, ahead of the offline community.
It's phenomenally disrespectful to wizards to presume that your idea of 'nice' somehow takes precedent over their value of 'right'. I will lay you odds that Wizards has had to lay employees off over this kind of thing. Wizards are fed up with the leaks and have every right to stop it. You think this is the first thing they've done? They've made multiple public announcements, many of which sum up to 'Don't leak, since we consider it illegal.'
But being, I dunno 'nice' means that Daron can defy that? Shucks! Remind me next time I shiv an infant to make sure I'm a nice guy to a group, so they can support me in this time where I clearly need it, being a blameless lamb before the slaughter. Because, you know, I'm nice.
I bear no ill will to Daron. I really do. But the community surrounding him sickens me in its incestuously sycophantic fawning. The sort of people who will ignore the rights of those people who They Don't Like. It's the same kind of Not-Thinking-Things-Through unprincipled attitude that led to women not being allowed to vote, or gays not being allowed to marry.
I see a lot of Bush-bashing on MTGS...
And here in this thread, I see the same kind of intolerance. Except instead of being homosexual or female, the people you're picking on happen to be employed. Well, I can see why we'd want to hate on them so much.
If this gets deleted, I won't be too surprised - but it will just be yet another sign of the problem. Support Daron, do. I really do think that the guy's life is going to be rough and he will need his friends. But he does not deserve to be above the law because you're his friend.
Starcity Games Featured Writer
Let this be our mantra – "There is more to the world than me.”
What you are saying is analogous to policemen not mirandizing individuals as they are being arrested, because the overwhelming presence of "reading people their rights" in popular television shows such as Law and Order should illustrate to people that they have those rights.
For example, if you were repetedly kicking me, and I wanted you to stop, I wouldn't put a post-it on your bathroom wall, where you might or might not notice it. Regardless of the fact that I expect you, as a human being, to avail yourself of those facilities, I would put a note directly into your mailbox, or I'd ask you to your face.
"Should Know" doesn't work under the law. "Did Know, and Ignored" does.
He may have known, but as WotC or it's parent company never expressly stated it to him, I don't think the announcements on magicthegathering.com have nearly the same legal standing as a C&D order.
People seem to be assuming that the summary judgement is a scare tactic, while I've seen RE's lawyer say that it isn't any kind of bargaining chip for a settlement.
Honestly, you guys should know better than me and you probably do, however, if the US does claim jurisdiction then as I understand it, it's the States laws that apply in the case. As such, despite the recent weakening of the supposed protection here, wouldn't RE be able to claim a protected source for the John Doe's they obviously are wanting him to divulge under one of the various shield laws?
Taking a ballpark guess at what the estimated attorneys fees are going to be in this mess on their side, I'd say that a summary judgement would be a 200,000$ bat to use to force him to waive his right, and divulge the sources.
Just some theorycrafting, but honestly what they're doing now looks like candyland compared to how bad they would look if RE invoked the shield law, and then they tried to sue. I mean, look at the flak the U.S. Govt caught over basically doing the same thing and they're Big Gov.
WotC is a vanilla 2/2 IMO compared to the overwhelming might of the entire press industry, who I honestly believe would get involved to some extent at that juncture simply because if RE's attempt to use a shield law was unsuccessful due to defeat of the law in court it'd basically make it an occurance of a really nasty civil precedent able to be made that could possible allow volleys of law suits to be made towards reporters.
Got all long-winded conspiracty theorist there, but what do you think?
1.: Could a Shield Law apply along with the rest of the US law.
2.: Would RE and his sources fall under said protection? (I know he'd fall under the proposed Free Speech Protection Act of 2005, but I'm not as well-versed in each individual state law)
3.: Would it be possible for WotC to waive all monetary damages after the fact, as long as RE divulged all knowledge of said leaks to their satisfaction?
After that, one more question/comment. I won't argue for a second that Fair Use hasn't been eroded into near uselessness. As an aside, I will say it's only a matter of time before the DMCA gets struck down as it should be. At any rate, despite the erosion of fair use, it's obvious that RE's usage of the copyrighted material falls under either reporting or comment, if not both. So that basically means it comes down to the other four qualifiers correct?
Two is kinda iffy for me as I'm not really sure what it speaks of as far as Nature goes, it seems almost as if this would start falling into trade secret territory, but as I recall that isn't what they're charging him with so...
Three seems like another possible slam dunk, but could also go another way. On one hand, he's showing 3 cards out of a 100+ card set. At worst he was sharing 3% of the new set, not withstanding the amount of changes that would be done to the cards shown lowering the final total even further. However, I suppose it could also be interpreted as him showing 100% of 3 cards.
Four looks like it would be a he said/she said scenario except WotC has more than the ability to cook the books and chart some pies to make it look like it has a detrimental effect much great than it does (See RIAA/MPAA vs US citizens)
I guess my question on this part is, do I have any sort of key misunderstanding of the facets of the applicability of fair use in this scenario, and I know it's somewhat frowned upon for at least RE's lawyer, but if the patent zombie could speak up and let me know in his professional opinion what he thinks the chances on each qualifying argument are?
Most of us look at this case with disgust, because it simply is disgusting that they will probably get away with it. Is what he did against the law? Maybe. That is for a judge/jury to decide. But in the end, this is simply a company trying to crush a person with its pocketbook. No more, no less.
All he says, admittedly, are variations on "Shame on you, Wizards!" The only reason he offers for condemning them is that they "ruined one guy's life," which, near as I can tell, hasn't actually happened yet. Personally, I hope it doesn't, but that doesn't mean that Wizards is in the wrong here.
Honestly, despite what the author of that piece thinks about the lawsuit, he mentions in his postscript that it's "absurd" of R_E to suggset he didn't enrich himself from the spoilers. I don't see the disrespect in suggesting that it's within Wizards' rights to go after someone who was enriching himself, probably illegally, by trading off their intellectual property.
I don't really see why reading a chain of "SHAME ON YOU WIZARDS" should be enough to deprive people of the ability to express their opinions, even when they happen to disagree with yours.
Regarding the idea that people who don't support R_E 100% are "heartless," I can't speak for everyone who disagrees with you, but I don't want to see the man ruined. However, there's a difference between having a heart and believing that an individual who does wrong and breaks the law should get off scot free simply because he's one man and the victim is a large corporation.
It's true that we all make mistakes, and I sympathize with R_E precisely for that reason. However, we all have to face the consequences of our mistakes as well. I hope that the consequences don'tt end up being devastating for R_E, but that doesn't absolve him of responsibility for what he did.
This has been covered in detail elsewhere in the thread. Obviously, the lawsuit and everything else is so what that he posted spoilers. If Wizards thought they were good for their company, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. I suspect that they know more about making money producing the game than we do.
Niether of us can answer the question of what R_E felt about what he was doing. However, based on what better informed people have said, the standard is not whether he knew his actions were infringing, but whether a reasonable person should have known that the actions were infringing.
If you're going to say that copyright infringement in this case isn't "wrong," then you're free to make that moral case, but it doesn't really matter in terms of the law. Wishing doesn't make it so.
I don't understand this logic at all. First, as I understand it, the lawsuit is not about revealing spoilers so much as the playtest cards. That was a new development that Wizards did not know about. Second, it's not Wizards' responsibility to warn people who infringe on their copyrights before taking action against them. What R_E was doing was obviously infringing, and any reasonable person should realize that without being told by Wizards.
Furthermore, it's not just Wizards that could pick up the phone to call R_E. If R_E wanted to ensure that he was safe from legal action, he could have approached Wizards for permission to use their intellectual property. He did not. Why? I can't say for sure, but I think it's because he knew from the start that Wizards would tell him to stop, and then he would either have to do as they said or face legal action.
So this one goes both ways. Why are you taking Wizards to task for failing to politely inform R_E that he was breaking the law when they had no legal responsibility to do so, but letting R_E off the hook for failing to politely ask permission when he DID have the legal responsibility to?
I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here, but it doesn't seem like you respect people who you call "heartless" and so forth.
It seems like the people who know the law agree that Wizards has the right to take this action. Furthermore, if you don't like reading contrary opinions, you can skip over them or not read the thread at all. It's not our responsibility to say only that which makes you feel better.
Again, I feel for R_E. Ideally, I'd like to see an agreement reached that doesn't end up costing him a dime. Short of that, I very sincerely hope that he isn't ruined financially.
Having said that, it seems pretty clear to me where the law comes down in all this, and I don't see anything about this situation that calls for an exception to be made. The whole "journalism" and "civil disobedience" arguments ring very hollow to me, not only legally, where they have no merit, but in terms of common sense and ethics as well. (By the way, one of the main tenets of civil disobedience, as Thoreau wrote in his original essay, was that you accept the consequences of breaking the unjust law, i.e. if the law is unjust, then the place for a just man is prison.)
I feel like those excuses for the leaks are really code words for a point of view that says, basically, "I like spoilers and am entitled to them." Sadly, you're just not. Wizards makes a game that a lot of people want to buy, and they're entitled to make that game their way and to use their intellectual property the way they see fit.
C
i think you are reading far to much into the posts and quite possably just being theatrical to be heard. did you even think that post all the way through before you wrote it? i mean hell you jump on the community when you are sitting in the same place the spoiers are, and from what i can tell by your name and post number, you have been here a bit
Talen Lee vbmenu_register("postmenu_861714", true);
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so what made you come here in may 2005? was it the spoilers? most likely. so you sit there and call us disrespectful to a company that just showed us how little it really cares about its coustomers?
seriusly would not 1 letter of cease and dissist of been sufficant? i think so. and wizards laying off employes is pretty much laughable to begin with. lay offs and such things do becoume public after awhile especialy ina large corporation. if anythign wizards has actuly grown in size scince hasbro came along
"It's the same kind of Not-Thinking-Things-Through unprincipled attitude that led to women not being allowed to vote, or gays not being allowed to marry."
strong words but little more then words. actuly both of those things, and i do not condone eather one of such, were well thoguht out, sadly, and based on the princables of the age. from what i can tell here most of the people on this fourm are intelligant people who are tryign to save the game we helped build. the spoilers ARE part of the history of the game. mabey they are just that history. but however it turns out RE is innocent untill proven guilty you make a huge leap stating he is. perhaps you should think out your posts before you write them.
I, as a writer, am protected by copyright law. I take great comfort in this. I am, without concious effort from myself, protected by the international law of the Berne convention. My wife, an artist, is also protected. This is important to me. If I was suing a multimilliondollar corporation for their using of my material, I lay odds people would morally weigh around me.
However, because the situation is reversed - the people doing the suing who were nonetheless hurt even in the abstract - people are weighing in alongside RE like he doesn't deserve what's happening.
You want to help RE? Buy cards from him. Overpay for them. Give the guy a call. Listen to his problems. Be a friend. But if your friend gets nicked for stealing a car, you have to accept that he's going to have to pay for that crime. You can't pontificate on a forum about how 'wrong' the situation.
The second you dehumanise a company, the second you think that Darron deserves treatment different to the company because he's Just One Guy and he's blue-collar, that's the exact same mindset that leads to racism and sexism. It's discriminating against someone based on their differences. And these people have every legal right to what they're doing.
Claiming otherwise is saying one law for the people, another law for the rich. And I find that idea abhorrent.
Edit: Also, yes, I came to MTGSalvation from MTGNews following RE and the spoiler. Mid BOK, I believe, so I've only been here about a year. And that's all that drew me. I was of the understanding the spoiler was in fact sanctioned by Wizards. Some elementary research I did at the start of this whole debacle proved me wrong.
I won't deny I hanker for spoilers. But I'm not going to claim I have a special right to them because I want the things.
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I can't speak for hmj, but I do follow this doctrim for products that are produced by a company whose actions I find reprehesible. I happen to know a large number of people who knowingly and actively exercise the power of their check books to register either their agreement or disagreement with the policies of corporations. I may not apply this principle to every single product that I purchase nor do I activily seek a yearly annual report on the activities of every company who’s products I buy. That is completely beside the point in this particular situation.
It is the bottom line that these companies and almost any company takes orders from and if a company policy is adversly affecting the bottom line it WILL be change. Make no mistake Wizards/Hasbro is taking a chance here and risking allienating a large number of their customers. They are banking on the fact that those customers will be swayed by the spin campaign the company is currently engaged in as well as the fact that Magic players are both fanatical about the game and most likely not going to make the symbolic effort to boycotte thier product.
By scoffing at the mere mention of someone claiming to do just that, boycotte Wizards and Hasbro products out of principle, you are trying to marinalize the effort and it’s effectivness. Well I can tell you from personal experience that you are wrong. Voting with your wallet or check book is an effect way to register your opinion with a company and there are people who are willing to let their moral compass guild their buying habits. As I have already said I will not be purchasing any prodicts buy Wizards/Hasbro as a result of this and know persoanlly two other people who have as well. If there are others reading this who feel that they want to make a similar statement with their checkbooks I say more power to you and welcome aboard.
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To those against spoilers, get over yourselves and your higher morality. Spoilers have been a part of the game from the very beginning. Studying up on them before the prerelease is as much a gaming tactic as anything else. If you find this unfair that’s fine, look up the spoiler yourself. If you want to be surprised, then don’t look at the spoiler. But you can’t have it both ways, so don’t go wining that you’re not able to win as much because other people took the time to look up the spoiler. In fact if the prerelease is not fun because you’re not winning enough then maybe you have forgotten what magic is all about in the first place. Or maybe you’re just a lousy player and are using spoilers as a scapegoat. Perhaps if fairness is an issue you would also want to segregate all the players by skill level? So that first prerelease Timmy doesn’t have to play against any long time local champions. After all, playing against more experienced tournament hardened players is just as cheep as playing against someone who has read over the spoiler right? If it is really an issue you could ask your organizer to segregate the entire prerelease. I know my local area had the prerelease broken up into serious and casual flights (this actualy worked quite well). Of course the winnings for the casual were not as high, but if you’re just a casual player looking for some extra wins then that wouldn’t matter. And do note that the Wizards spoiler was posted BEFORE the rumor mill spoiler was completed.
I am kind of annoyed by the people treating Hasbro/WoTC as God. Unless you have some sort of particular insight into the inner workings of the Hasbro/WoTC psyche then you don’t know what they think. You don’t KNOW if they care about single individuals and you don’t KNOW if they do. Sure you can make up probability of what you think is more likely and what you think is good business, but that’s just making things up. On the same token those who say your going to boycott, stop saying you’ll make a huge difference. You might, but you don’t know that, you don’t even know how many people are boycotting. And reading over and over again that your guestimation is that WoTC is going to lose $90,000+ is just ridiculous. All you can say is how much you personally will hurt them. Though boycotting in and of itself is a personal and rather noble thing to do. I myself have boycotted McDonalds for nearly eight years. How much this hurts McDonald’s bottom line is probably miniscule. But I am sure Wendy’s appreciated the extra business my eight years has brought them. As far as magic is concerned, a boycott from me may cost them nearly $200 - $300 a year plus whatever singles I buy on the secondary market for my many casual decks. Over ten years with enough people sure, it may make a difference. But I am not going to boycott, and here is why. It is probably one of the greatest irony’s in this case that the best way to help Daron is to purchase magic cards from his store at www.rancoredelf.com. This invariably assists the very people who are suing him. But it still helps Daron. In fact I have made the vast majority of my 2005 and 2006 single purchases from him and will continue to do so. He has even been gracious enough to me to give me some store credit. So no, I am not going to boycott magic, but I may concentrate more on the casual gaming and my little pet decks, the lord knows I have enough of those on the backburners. Perhaps a greater Irony would be if Daron wins and counter sues and wins, the bulk of the money would find its way back to wizards anyway, unless Daron quit the game over this.
As far as the case is concerned I think there are two possible scenarios. Perhaps the lawyers could say how possible my interpretation is.
One: this seems very impersonal and rather standard. Hasbro is a big company. They have therefore most likely made this kind of lawsuit before, maybe many times. Probably to save a lot of money in the long run for themselves against real competitors like other toy companies. In fact I am willing to bet that they may have a filing cabinet in the back with a file full of copyright lawsuit papers that merely need a typewriter to add in the name. And that the same lawsuit would be filed against their main multi-billion dollar competitor as it would the average magic player sporting a magic related banner. As a big company they may even have a no-tolerance policy on leakers…like the no tolerance school policy on knives that nets the machete wielding social outcast as well as the honor student with the butter knife accidentally left in the back seat of her car (did she break the rules? Yes..suspension and a lost scholarship later….). I don’t think that it is the big guy stepping on the little guy as much as just a company following standard procedures and Daron getting caught up in the mix of it. It would be nice for the case to be treated as an individual case and for the big owner to fly to Daron’s house in his helicopter to have a heart to heart with Daron about this stuff, but big companies typically don’t spend the money or take the time to take a specific interest in every court case they file, or at least they did not in this case. I doubt the owner of Hasbro saw more than a footnote in a memo about this, if that. Basically the one policy fits all crap..
Or
Two: Wizards were getting really tired of Daron and his spoiler releasing. They new they had no case though so the heads of wizard made up a fake screen name and purposely leaked the material with the knowledge that, though Daron would be suspicious, he would still post them. They then proceeded to use this plant as a means to slam a heavy lawsuit against him, crush him, and make an example so that the rest of the world would never dream of posting rumors about a spoiler ever again. In the mean time they conscripted anti-daron naysayers to invade all forums and to raise as much decent as they can. <_< ß-shifty eyed look towards Talen Lee
A lot of people seem to be still hung up on if Daron is guilty or not. Hasbro thinks he is, Jay Shergill thinks he has a good case. That’s good enough for me. Besides, how many of us break the law and don’t consider it? I have had magic related paraphernalia as an avatar before, had dakon from HoMM as an avatar for years without permission, and I have downloaded music online. In real life terms I have sped constantly when I am behind the wheel, I have jaywalked a lot, add in a few broken international laws and I am a regular lifetime criminal. Though I doubt anyone would consider it in that light. I am sure that we all agree that IF what Daron did was really against the law it is defiantly not worth $90,000 by default.
Real Question: Now correct me if I am wrong but it seems that this default statement is merely a standard act to try to catch Daron off his feet, A first turn slith firewalker that has deadly potential but, as long as you respond, won’t kill you. And keep in mind that no matter how innocent we think Daron is he still would have paid the money if he and his lawyer didn’t come up with a response, still might. Well Jay Shergill thinks they have a case and they did send in a response. How often in a case like this does a Judge have a response and still opt for the default judgment?
Last Question; like I said above I think the default judgment is just a standard first turn tactic, which means if it is rejected by the judge, as we all hope, this is just the beginning. What can Daron expect to see happen after this?
For my heart had not denied me and I have somewhere to go.
I shall never be a prisoner of steel and glass and stone.
If I leave, I will return again to my Rocky Mountain home.
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In all seriousness, what kinda evidence do you need that I'm not a corporate shill? I'm a writer over at SCG, my real name is available on their archive, and I'm currently looking for work. What do you want, my license?
Starcity Games Featured Writer
Let this be our mantra – "There is more to the world than me.”
lol, hey man that was suppose to be a joke. You know, the massive conspiracy theory thing, wasn't meant to be taken seriously. Though adds to the humor I suppose.
Daggertooth
For my heart had not denied me and I have somewhere to go.
I shall never be a prisoner of steel and glass and stone.
If I leave, I will return again to my Rocky Mountain home.
Moderator Helpdesk
Starcity Games Featured Writer
Let this be our mantra – "There is more to the world than me.”
They are morally obligated to protect the integrity of their product. If they don't, the customers may very well suffer the consequences. And let me just say this. RE has knowingly helped people break contracts. He has willingly helped people break contracts. He has even, by the way he's talked on spoiler threads, pushed them for illegal information. That is called copyright theft. There are consequences for it. And the fact that he has a family is irrelevent. He should have thought about that before willfully violating WotC's copyright. There is no sense whining about it. I don't make moral judgements against Mr. Rutter. But Mr. Rutter needs to accept that what he did was illegal. The "poor me" ruse is annoying and ridiculous.
His actions were probably illegal and probably amoral. So there really is no moral high ground to take in this lawsuit. It's a lawsuit plain and simple.
Though this is kinda harsh choice of words I agree. Everyone wants to show some "automatic sympathy" without any background knowledge at all.
The example with the book is an apt one. Do you people think that to post the text of a book not yet published to P2P network is ok? I think it's safe to say that it certainly is not. Now, how exactly is posting information obtained from individuals that have broken their NDA different? And doing so for a long time with inaction from the involved party? I wonder.
Were there really no warnings at all? I don't know. Is building one's reputation in connection with online store based on possibly illegal info OK legally? I don't really know.
But I feel this was just last straw for WOTC, the effort to make an example
and I certainly don't know all the data they have gathered to open this lawsuit to say that there is no way for some guild to be involved...
And while I don't appreciate corporate bully and respect pressumtion of innocence, I won't go "R_E is innocent cuz I luv rumors and it helps the game and others have said so too".
THis case is unfortunate but I guess it could be expected...
This would be ridiculous. I don't see how this lawsuit which we all have just broad infomation about is in any connection with the products. I don't think it is appropriate to look at WOTC as automatically guilty just for opening this case. It may be a shock for some but others have seen it coming. IMHO situation is not quite black and white and the case is not over. Do not let yourself be manipulated by either side...
I know for a fact that Magic is at its best these days and know that my boycott would be useless.
And IMHO while I don't mind reading rumors it would be nice not to push them into NDA violations and get along with worldwide magazines previews and such non-problematic sources...
just my 2 cents.
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We can start a pledge thread here and on the Wizards boards...I'm fairly sure that we can get around whatever CoC rules exist against it...
If the charges actually go through then all R_E's supporters sending $20 would add up to a nice sum..
FREE
TIBETR_E!!!!If you have read my other posts in this thread discussion you will see that I am not saying WOTC is “guilty” for just opening this case. I have repeatedly stated that they maybe completely within their rights to file this case. I have also stated that I disagree with them doing so in the manner they have. It is the manner with which they have chosen to peruse this matter that I find reprehensible and that is what has prompted my decision to discontinue to be their customer. This case may not be black and white but the methods and actions WOTC have chosen to employ prosecuting it, in my opinion, certainly are.
Just my 2 cents.
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You see, it is posts like these I find very odd. I mean Daron makes a casual post to update the community. In it he mentions his family which he does have and they probably concern him enough to talk about it. And instantly there are personal attacks against him. Sleazy? Self promoting? You got all that from Daron saying he has a family. Well I am sorry if it annoys you that people can show sympathy with Daron’s situation. Many are just seeing themselves in his shoes. Maybe this automatic hatred is just jealousy of the respect he has earned, or maybe those who make posts like this are simply hateful people with nothing better to do. I won’t presume to understand, Funny how they need to revert to name calling though. Your not the first to do this either.
The analogy with the book is incorrect. If a person was to copy your book then they have no reason to purchase your book at a later date. As said in the past, a play test card is not the product, just an image of the product. A better analogy would be if someone posted the first three pages of a chapter to preview a book without permission. Talen, if someone was a huge fan of your writing and somehow got a copy of a few non-sequential pages of your work to post as a preview on a site dedicated to your work, would you then sue?
Daggertooth
For my heart had not denied me and I have somewhere to go.
I shall never be a prisoner of steel and glass and stone.
If I leave, I will return again to my Rocky Mountain home.
Moderator Helpdesk
Thus Wizards sueing for intellectual property, regardless of its legality, is really sickening to me. I say this solely because of the process not for RE's sake, but maybe his sake is worthwhile too.
Now I think that Wizards has a right to not like spoilers. As I said earlier, I don't like spoilers (actually I wouldn't mind if Wizards made a widely publicized spoiler where it is fair for everyone, advertised in all the pre-release publicity). People like RE should respect that right and not coax or pass on the illegally publicized info. Yet, I just don't think litigation on RE is the correct answer to their own problem. However they can, finding out the sources on their own, and prosecuting to the fullest extent of the law (or possible obtainable monies) is the solution.
Btw, is suing the only way to establish that a statute of limitations hasn't passed - or could they, for example, file a complaint motion of some sort but tell a judge they are not ready to pursue litigation at this time?
Wizards has taken many chances like this before. Take for example when they sued the makers of apprentice. The whole community was in uproar just like this. Everyone said they would stop buying product, etc. The real problem is that as much as we like to think we are representative of the magic community as a whole, we are not. Nothing anyone did over the Apprentice lawsuit made any difference, and nothing anyone does over Darons lawsuit will make any difference. The problem is the numbers just aren’t there. Wizards has to addictive of a product, and the boycotters are just to small in numbers. It sad to say, but even if half the online community stopped buying cards, it might not do anything at all.
As far as the spin-campaign, I’m not sure what you mean. Where is Wizards spinning anything? Their people have stated they are deciding to draw the line at prototype cards, and are exercising their right to protect their investments. We know they have not done little to stop the dissemination of spoiler information in the past, but we also know they have every right to do so now if they chose. It is a bitter pill to swallow for our community, but there is no spin except the spin coming from the supporters of Daron. All of the people defending Daron have good intentions, but they are using distortions, propaganda, and outright lies to try to make what he did seem right. We can argue morality and corporate insensitivity all we want, but most of the legality issues are mute.
Well, we DO know that they don’t care about individuals if you look at their past history regarding the release of unsanctioned copyrighted material. Wizards has brought very few legal actions against anyone regarding its copyrights. Over the years and years spoilers have been leaked to the magic community, Wizards has never brought any legal action against the common magic player. If they cared about the single individual, then they would be sending out cease and desist orders to every person using their art for their sigs, and to every website that posts any unreleased spoiler info, etc. There lack of action means they chose to ignore what they consider trivial violations of their copyrights.
Yes, I might if the text in those pages was not finalized. It could actulay hurt your final product if working copies of your book were circulated. Imagine getting copies of Lord of the Rings with Bingo Baggins as the main carcter, or Luke Starkiller in Starwars. I would defiantly sue in these cases because this type of information should be protected and kept secret until finalized. Another example might be the specs of a new car are leaked well before the design of the car is finalized. If the specs say the car is going to have a 450 horsepower engine and cost $20,000, the hype might huge. If the car maker then decides the final design of that car should call for a 300 horsepower engine, the whole campaign might be ruined because un-finalized information was leaked without their consent.
I doubt that Daron will ever need to pay $90,000. The money is a scare tactic to get what Wizards really wants. This is the crux of the whole argument. WHAT does Wizards want to gain from this whole thing. They know that they will piss off a small part of the online community (which doesn’t add up to much at all, but still), and might even get some bad press, but they still press on. I think they want one of three things.
1)They are pissed off about the leaked playtest cards and want to find out which employees are leaking this information. Daron represents the other side of the leak, so they are leaning hard on him to get the names, but in the end he won’t pay any money if hey reveals his sources.
2)They want to draw the line at playtest cards, and don’t really care about their internal matters as such, they just want to pick on Daron. (I find this more unlikely since there are unnamed coconspirators named in the suit)
3)Wizards wants to shut down the entire business of leaking any unofficial spoiler information and they are using this case to set precedent. They will hit Daron hard but back off in the end if they get him to agree not to reveal any more information. They will then put the word out that any other people/websites that reveal copyrighted material will be subject to similar suits.
Sorry for not to have read this whole huge thread but anyway: what manner exactly did they choose to resolve this? Filing a suit and deliver it to court? At first I thought the default judgment order was utter madness but reading something about it, it seems like a standart legal action...
What exactly do you know of any possible preceding steps they may have made? And why exactly do mix legal department od Hasbro with R&D of WOTC? It is your right to make a decision and stop buying products that are of the best quality in its existence but I believe that you're passing judgment based on incomplete information. Partly because the complete information wasn't meant for you. This is nothing personal as far as WOTC is concerned, I believe. THey just want these leaks and spoilers stopped, and still they have turned "blind eye" (not really blind, but...) to it for SEVERAL YEARS before taking action...
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