Well, I'm not sure I buy the "those three cards" argument, PA, but of course, I'm not saying you're wrong either.
But seriously, what Wizards owns on these cards has got to be more cleearly defined even if RE loses this suit. By all I can make out what you're saying, you are interpreting facts (or at least, appearances of facts) to say that if I write about the text of any card (casually, without permission) I am breaking US copyright law, regardless of whether WotC protects that right.
If that is true, that is extremely sad.
If that is not true, that is a window.
EDIT: Found on Wikipedia (the link to the patent # is extremely informative) Patent
Games in which a player selects a collection of tradeable elements and uses that set to compete with other players.
Certain aspects of gameplay originally developed for Magic: The Gathering, such as "tapping" a card to indicate it is temporarily depleted.
As a holder of the patent, Wizards of the Coast has requested that all trading card game publishers license the mechanics described in the patent, usually for a royalty fee based on total sales.
In October 2003, Wizards of the Coast filed suit against Nintendo and related companies in U.S. District Court in Seattle shortly after its distribution agreement expired. The suit alleged, along with other claims, that the Pokémon Trading Card Game infringed on the company's patent. In December of that year, the parties settled the case on undisclosed terms, precluding a judicial ruling which might have been the first test of the patent's legal validity. As a result of this suit, the "magic cards" in the Yu-Gi-Oh! Trading Card Game are now called "spell cards".
This is some crazy stuff. I would like the rest of the community like to push my support. I have actually (not just because of this....school, girlfriend, family) not played Magic in a month or so, I suppose I just got fed up w/there crap and I mean I still plan to play but I think this is all bull....like I have said from the start I can see thier case but that sum is rediculous and not to mention if this goes through they are going to lose a heck of a lot more than that in sales. I mean thats like 1 pack per person who plays...If we quit for a week they would lose that. This just seems like a really stupid move on there part... And I have written them about 5 times telling them this as has probably every other memeber of this community. I mean seriously R_E you are the biggest thing to the Magic community WotC pushes for all these pros but I would say your the real celeb of Magic...If there is one.
-Ryan
Magic player of 7-8 years.
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Quote from mastab3690 »
yes turning of the tide that was a nice, props on breaking the deck
Yeah, Penny Arcade did a big number on them. It's true, it's a common activity in the more densely-populated country of America. Here, you're lucky to get people who can telemarket.
Quote from allanhowls »
I don't think the people in question are astroturfing, nor do I think they're shills for Hasbro. I just think you're being a bit hasty in your snippy retorts (you do seem to have a talent for phrasing things in just such a way as to bring across the worst possible impression...you sure you're not American?).
It's true. I'm a writer, and I've a strong interest in the way people prove points. Also, due to period debating and such, I'm very much used to being incisive. While it's a technically divisive thing to do, and I'm very much (in this issue) ruled by my emotions, it feels genuinely necessary to me. There are so many people who are putting forward perspectives on the matter that aren't just wrong, but are really quite insulting to the people at Wizards.
I find bigotry in either direction to be foolish. It's not like there's gay-bashing and sexism going on in this thread, but there's a strong, anti-corporate message that seems to think that Wizards is some kind of gigantic monolith that wanders around and inflicts cruelty on people before going back to its lair to inject puppies with AIDS.
Quote from allanhowl »
What you claim to be delusional thinking is not at all uncommon in the corporate world. Fact is, big companies hire folks to simply scour the 'net all day long, looking for negative publicity, drumming up support, and even *gasp* seeking out copyright infringement.
It's true. And I distinctly doubt Wizards does that. I know Maro reads SCG. I know that many MTG writers read other MTG sites. But I also know that Wizards has better things to do with its time than employ me, and that PA, regardless of his source, has yet to say anything factually wrong.
The voices 'against' in this thread really seem to be just myself and PA. And we're definitely different people - you can see my activities all over the boards before GP came out, including a two-week ban, while PA just signed on (and has, I expect, an American IP).
I know what it could be. But I also estimate that Wizards has far better things to do with its time and money.
As a holder of the patent, Wizards of the Coast has requested that all trading card game publishers license the mechanics described in the patent, usually for a royalty fee based on total sales.
In October 2003, Wizards of the Coast filed suit against Nintendo and related companies in U.S. District Court in Seattle shortly after its distribution agreement expired. The suit alleged, along with other claims, that the Pokémon Trading Card Game infringed on the company's patent. In December of that year, the parties settled the case on undisclosed terms, precluding a judicial ruling which might have been the first test of the patent's legal validity. As a result of this suit, the "magic cards" in the Yu-Gi-Oh! Trading Card Game are now called "spell cards".
Wow, sounds like Hasbro or WOTC has a troll-lawyer chained in the basement of their building scheming up ways to thoroughly protect their intellectual property.
"Ho-ho-ho, Magic Tricks! I am going to slap a lawsuit on David Copperfield. Soon he will be reduced to holding optical illusion shows in Vegas. Wait, illusion is a creature type on our cards! Our cards are literature, for all intents and purposes. I will slap a lawsuit on him after that so then he will only have Optical sleight of mind shows... wait.... " - Magic Troll Lawyer
(don't take that too seriously anyone, just some contrived comic relief on my part)
I probably wan't clear. We assume WotC thinks that the three cards shown are copyrightable material and that RancoredElf can be held responsible for breaking that copyright. What is copyrightable - the pictures? oops, not in this case....therefore the text? ok. So their lawsuit is based on him quoting text from cards. But quoting text from cards has been happening for over 10 years, even by him. WotC has not filed suit over the printing of text in the past ten years. Therefore it seems that an argument can be made about the statute of limitations having expired because they have never sued people over quoting compromisable card text in ten years.
Haha, yeah. You go into court and argue that quoting text from released cards is the same as circumventing WotC's security measures to find unreleased, unprinted cards and quoting them.
Quoting from released cards is "fair use." Quoting from unreleased cards isn't.
To shape the discussion and discredit the opposing voices is a standard formula used in the court of public opinion.
Make no mistake, some of what we are seeing here is exactly that.
It is Spin pure and simple.
Keep drumming the point that RE committed a crime.
keep repeating that Wizards is well within it's rights to act as it has.
Attempt to discredit those who disagree and are pointing out these tactics as conspiracy theorists.
Continue to drive the point that Wizards/Hasbro are so big and the Magic community is so much more then what happens here that any dissent by people here will not amount to a blip on the screen and thus is not worth the effort.
That he(RE) is up against a Billion dollar a year plus corporation and it is futile for him to continue to fight.
Repeatedly fly the balloon that all RE has to do is give up his sources and all this will go away like MAGIC.
This is their real goal. To quickly and inexpensively nail whoever is leaking the information.
You rarely see this kind of spin oputside of polital campaigns at least not this first hand.
I think Wizards/Hasbro is wrong.
They are wrong in their approach to their problem of an information leak.
I think that they are wrong to try to fiancially bankrupt a man who's actions so many of their loyal fans eagerly encouraged and supported.
I think that they are wrong in underestimating the damage to their game these actions are causing. I, for one, will not be purchasing any products made by their company again.
and finally I think this embarrassing attempt to spin this debacle only shows how out of touch they are with their fans.
Simply because they have the legal right to do something does not make it the right thing to do. Had they approached this problem of theirs a different way they would not need to engage in damage control now.
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Random Mafia 3 - Town MVP
Advance warning: The follow post is slightly off topic and has nothing to do with the copyright infringement matter.
I just read Wizards' patent (5,662,332). I must say, I'm not very impressed, and if I was Wizards, I would be quite disappointed in my patent counsel.
Look at the independent claims (1, 2, and 3). What limitation do you see in EVERY one of them? Why, they're all methods for PLAYING the game. Many of the steps EXPRESSLY STATE that they are steps performed by PLAYERS. The only people who infringe these claims are those who actually PLAY the game. An entity who merely MAKES and SELLS such a game does NOT literally and directly infringe these claims.
Additionally, claims 1 and 2 both require tapping, which would be easy to work around. Claim 3 isn't as narrow, but it's still a method for playing a game.
If I was writing a patent application, I would write the claims so that my client's competitors, rather than my client's customers, infringed the claims.
I'm surprised that any company caved to Wizards' assertions of patent infringement on this patent. I would gladly defend a game company against this patent.
Yeah, but if you're playing a game that doesn't use cards, why would you expect to be violating a patent on a trading card game?
Does seem kind of dumb if the patent only holds the players liable, and not other businesses though, would that actually hold up in a court of law? And didn't pokemon lose the legal battle with WotC involving said patent?
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Quote from Avatar of Kokusho »
What in the name of all that's holy are you smoking????
I cannot support a company that goes after someone in the manor Wizards is going after R_E. I just cannot.
Do you really expect us to believe that you follow this same doctrine for every product you consume in your life? What kind of car do you drive, what kind of clothes do you wear? What kind of food do you eat, hell.. what web-browser are you using? Almost every company out there has probably used tactics like these (or worse in most cases) to protect its products and investments. I just dont buy this as an honest argument.
Quote from Molimo »
Haha, yeah. You go into court and argue that quoting text from released cards is the same as circumventing WotC's security measures to find unreleased, unprinted cards and quoting them. Quoting from released cards is "fair use." Quoting from unreleased cards isn't.
Right, this is really where Wizards decided to draw the line. They have decided that the playtest cards went to far. As was stated before, only a small percentage of magic players consistently used the internet for magic news, and even fewer used message boards. You’ve got to think that Wizards ignored the leaks because they were really just for the few hardcore fanatics like us. But now there has been a major leak of secrets that goes beyond the finalized text of certain sets. Bazzar's argument about "they ignored it for so many years, so that makes it legal now" just doesn’t hold water. We also have to remember that along with copyright law, there is a law that protects trade-secrets: SECTION 1. DEFINITIONS. As used in this [Act], unless the context requires otherwise: (1) "Improper means" includes theft, bribery, misrepresentation, breach or inducement of a breach of a duty to maintain secrecy, or espionage through electronic or other means; (2) "Misappropriation" means: (i) acquisition of a trade secret of another by a person who knows or has reason to know that the trade secret was acquired by improper means; or (ii) disclosure or use of a trade secret of another without express or implied consent by a person who (A) used improper means to acquire knowledge of the trade secret; or (B) at the time of disclosure or use, knew or had reason to know that his knowledge of the trade secret was (I) derived from or through a person who had utilized improper means to acquire it; (II) acquired under circumstances giving rise to a duty to maintain its secrecy or limit its use; or (III) derived from or through a person who owed a duty to the person seeking relief to maintain its secrecy or limit its use; or (C) before a material change of his [or her] position, knew or had reason to know that it was a trade secret and that knowledge of it had been acquired by accident or mistake. (3) "Person" means a natural person, corporation, business trust, estate, trust, partnership, association, joint venture, government, governmental subdivision or agency, or any other legal or commercial entity. (4) "Trade secret" means information, including a formula, pattern, compilation, program, device, method, technique, or process, that: (i) derives independent economic value, actual or potential, from not being generally known to, and not being readily ascertainable by proper means by, other persons who can obtain economic value from its disclosure or use, and (ii) is the subject of efforts that are reasonable under the circumstances to maintain its secrecy.
I'll just make a general comment that I'm glad that the presence of a lawyer who, you know, actually knows what he's talking about has elevated the level of discussion here. I'm glad that most of R_E's supporters are no longer suggesting that he is innocent by way of arguments like, "Sure, the law is important, but people's emotions are just as important!"
Personally, I think it sucks that R_E could end up ruined by all this, and I hope that doesn't happen. However, I find it hard to see Wizards as the evil empire here. People who leaked and posted spoilers knew that they were infringing, despite the whole "they never complained before" contention. The notion that reporting spoilers is journalism and the sense that players are entitled to spoilers is wrong, both factually and legally.
Regarding the argument that Wizards is in the right, but they're making a mistake anyway, I don't think that's really the case either. Those who have pointed out that the people who know about the suit is a tiny fraction of the game's customer base have it exactly right. Beyond that, the numbers who feel that Wizards is wrong is an even smaller piece, and of them, the number who care enough about the issue to stop buying product represents an even smaller fraction. Sometimes companies do make huge PR blunders, but I don't really see this being one.
All that said, I do wish R_E luck in avoiding the hammer.
i can see this thing going on and on with no real conclusion. RE didn't do anything that was illegal and the info was form people he didn't know if it was true or not. again they were just rumors. but then again its a huge corporation against a community.
This is a case of a corporation suing one man. This is a case of suing for $90,000
I want Hasbro to show where R_E did $90,000 of damage to them. They need to show where he did ANY harm to their company. Not only that, but they're also charging him for their legal fees.
Legal fees?! They're trying to say that he needs to pay for THEIR lawyers. They've probably got a whole TEAM of lawyers on retainer because they're a corporation. I highly doubt these lawyers were called for R_E's case exclusively.
Hasbro needs to prove that $90,000 is a good amount.
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Banner and avatar by me.
Official Character Sheet Shredder of DAMNIT
DAMNIT: I should never have to shred my own character sheet in frustration.
To shape the discussion and discredit the opposing voices is a standard formula used in the court of public opinion.
Make no mistake, some of what we are seeing here is exactly that.
It is Spin pure and simple.
Keep drumming the point that RE committed a crime.
keep repeating that Wizards is well within it's rights to act as it has.
Attempt to discredit those who disagree and are pointing out these tactics as conspiracy theorists.
Continue to drive the point that Wizards/Hasbro are so big and the Magic community is so much more then what happens here that any dissent by people here will not amount to a blip on the screen and thus is not worth the effort.
That he(RE) is up against a Billion dollar a year plus corporation and it is futile for him to continue to fight.
Repeatedly fly the balloon that all RE has to do is give up his sources and all this will go away like MAGIC.
This is their real goal. To quickly and inexpensively nail whoever is leaking the information.
You rarely see this kind of spin oputside of polital campaigns at least not this first hand.
I think Wizards/Hasbro is wrong.
They are wrong in their approach to their problem of an information leak.
I think that they are wrong to try to fiancially bankrupt a man who's actions so many of their loyal fans eagerly encouraged and supported.
I think that they are wrong in underestimating the damage to their game these actions are causing. I, for one, will not be purchasing any products made by their company again.
and finally I think this embarrassing attempt to spin this debacle only shows how out of touch they are with their fans.
Simply because they have the legal right to do something does not make it the right thing to do. Had they approached this problem of theirs a different way they would not need to engage in damage control now.
Wow. *stands up a slow claps* That is one of the most sensible things Ive read in this entire thread. You hit the nail on the head with every one of your points.
Ignoring all legal mumbo jumbo being thrown around, Wizards is acting like Grade A aholes in this case. They are going after a man who is a blue collar worker, a man who has in no way shape of form harmed Wizards; if anything, his leaks have increased sales [at least for me, and I doubt I am alone] and he has done more for the online Magic community than any Wizards employee can possibly do [I know I visited 'News before MTG.com]. So Wizards repsonds by trying to destroy his financial future in one fell swoop? R_E is not Nintendo, and Wizards is just wrong to treat him like that. Wizards should worry more about tightening their security and less about ruining a man's life.
Simply put, every single Magic player should be ashamed by the way Wizards is handling this case.
Quote from MillMaster »
Do you really expect us to believe that you follow this same doctrine for every product you consume in your life? What kind of car do you drive, what kind of clothes do you wear? What kind of food do you eat, hell.. what web-browser are you using? Almost every company out there has probably used tactics like these (or worse in most cases) to protect its products and investments. I just dont buy this as an honest argument.
Well, its does show a lot about one's integrity when they refuse to purchase a company's products based on business practices, I for example havent eaten Taco Bell in years because of the way they treat their laborers, and I sure as hell wont be buying any Wizards or Hasbro products for long time.
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The above post gets my approval-:spock:
Your Ad Here!
(no seriously, PM me with something good and Ill put it here)
Yeah...It's a good idea don't get me wrong, and it might actually have an influence on WotC...but I don't think Hasbro or their attorneys are going to care.
To shape the discussion and discredit the opposing voices is a standard formula used in the court of public opinion.
Make no mistake, some of what we are seeing here is exactly that.
Yes, and your post is completely spin-free
Wizards wasn't very nice about the way they handled the suit, no doubt. Would you have been happier if they'd warned RE first? Does Maro's column bad-mouthing leaks suffice? What about the article warning that discussing unreleased cards is illegal?
I have (yes another) few questions for Patent Attorney. I appreciate you patience in all of this!
Where is the distinction between speculation and copyright infringement and intellectual property?
If I were to speculate about something and post my speculation on a message board, and it happened to be correct - would that put me in danger of a copyright infringement?
What if I didn't have specific information about a piece of copyrighted material, but I had some bits and pieces (that may or may not be reliable) - how much of that information could I put on a message board with out being in an actionable position?
What if an employee of Ford Motor Company gave me a photograph of the latest concept art for the new Model Ford Focus, could I post that on a message board legally? Is it a copyright infringement or an intellectual property issue?
If someone gave me information regard one of Ford's cars, but I wasn't certain which one it is - say for example - one of the new Ford cars will have 6 doors, a specific stereo system, and a particular style of wheels. If I disclose that information am I giving away trade secrets?
How do any of these things differ if I was a reporter making a "breaking news story"?
Does intellectual property rights protect against 3rd party disclosure after that IP has been disclosed by the holder?
Do you really expect us to believe that you follow this same doctrine for every product you consume in your life? What kind of car do you drive, what kind of clothes do you wear? What kind of food do you eat, hell.. what web-browser are you using? Almost every company out there has probably used tactics like these (or worse in most cases) to protect its products and investments. I just dont buy this as an honest argument.
#1 - No.
#2 - N/A, N/A
#3 - N/A, N/A
Not an argument, but a statement. This is an argument.
And R_E the money I stated in the Opinion section, if you lose, I will send to you quarterly until the fees are paid off.
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Catch!
Superannuated canines are immune to indoctrination and innovative maneuvers.
*sigh* I didn't think I'd need to post in this thread again, but...
Claiming WotC is being evil for suing him for $90,000 is silly. Honestly. They own the property, and if you came up with some great idea, and someone disseminated it without your consent and cost you money (as this probably does, given WotC's policy towards spoilrs), you'd be ticked.
Second, this has nothing to do with customer service. Orbitz's fiasco with Maddox was due to a screw up on Orbitz's part. R_E's fiasco with WotC is due to a screw up on R_E's part. He broke the law, not WotC. Thus, he's the one who is getting in trouble.
Laws like these protect automotive companies from having to disseminate information about the technologies they have that can cut gasoline consumption in half (until the patent runs out and becomes public, or an oil crisis forces them to release the technology before they would like).
Laws like these protect pharmecutical companies from having to disseminate information about, ohh, the cure for cancer (again, until the patent runs out).
Laws like these have protected companies like big tobacco in the past from having to release their own private research about how harmful their product is by itself, how addictive it is, and what kind of dangerous products they added to the tobacco that makes it even more deadly. Laws like these protect chemical companies from having to release information about what kind of carcinogenic vapors they are releasing into the air, ground and water around their plants.
This is in no way the same thing as any of those. They're PATENTS. This is about copyrights. Biiig difference and totally different sets of laws.
Laws like these are now beginning to be used to protect companies that are taking your personal information and using it to their own ends. The programs that allow a company to see everything you do on your computer, every website you visit, every phone call you make, and every single solitary purchase you make at any store anywhere are "trade secrets" after all. And they should never have been leaked from the company in the first place. Noone is allowed to KNOW that they are recording and consolidating all of this information, because that was corporate knowledge, a "trade secret". Does the fact that the press now knows that companies like AT&T are doing this mean that all of the members of the press who broke the story should now be sued? No, no it does not.
This has nothing to do with it, and what AT&T does in that capacity is illegal (as is what the federal government did).
Does a Magic spoiler have extreme value to the world? No, no it does not. But cases like these set a TERRIBLE precedent, and minor cases like these give the big cases that are utterly wrong (morally) legal ground to stand on.
No, they don't and again, this has nothing to do with patent law.
So, what? Should a person inside of a corporation who feels it is morally wrong to withold the discovery of an easy-to-manufacture and easy-to-disseminate cure for AIDS until the patent runs out (what is that, like 17 years for pharmecuticals or something?) leak that info to a journalist, the journalist who publishes that information should be sued for damages of loss of sales? No, no he should not. That is insane. And yet, the law is currently on the side of the corporation, and said journalist does indeed have a good chance of getting sued for everything they will ever make in their lifetime times 1,000.
That saves lives, this does nothing except cost WotC money, and is an utterly different case anyway because, again, patents vs. copyrights.
As for the moral obligations, RE, IMHO, has no legal ties to WotC. If WotC cannot keep its employees from leaking spoilers (which happens all the times, and not just from the R&D/playtest side of the game, but uncut sheets are leaked from the manufacturing side all the time as well), it's WotC's fault, not RE's. Find your damned leak in-company. Suing the people who are leaked the info does nothing. Once that person is out of the way, that vaccuum will be filled by someone else, pretty much immediately, and the leak will continue.
So are you stepping up to be sued for 90 grand next?
Quote from "JStutz2003" »
PatentAttorney, no matter how much you belittle and patronize the people here, the fact is, we can turn on the TV news, read the newspaper, or search the web and find hundreds of images of products that aren't put there or "okayed" by their makers.
This is irrelevant. People do not sue every single copyright infringer, because it is very difficult to do. If you take an artists work, though, and make a banner out of it without their permission, then you've violated their copyright on the image. It doesn't matter if it makes them money or not, it is still illegal and you could still be sued.
People selling the products themselves use the images to SELL THE PRODUCT. Just look up a Magic card on Ebay and you will see there are PICTURES of the card they are selling. Why does Wizards tolerate it there, but not here?
Simple: because once they're released, WotC doesn't care if you post images of the card. They possibly could still sue you, but I think you could argue it was fair use because it was image of a product (i.e. a magic card) rather than of a concept (i.e. a nonreleased Magic card's art, text, ect.). Also, I think that WotC gives permission to use their text and images and stuff for certain purposes. You'd have to check, though.
Quote from "Hawkeye7" »
I don't see the logic behind trying to block any information being leaked or this legal action, at all. RE's actions have done nothing but create and sustain interest in the game of Magic. Quite frankly Wizards and hasbro should have been paying RE to do what he was doing.
It is their information to do with and sell as they please. Additionally, how do you know it has increased interest? WotC says its bad for them; if it was good for them, they'd do it themselves.
Re's actions were the very best for of advertizing Wizards could hope for and they did not have to pay one red cent to get it.
Again, have you done extensive market research on the matter? I'll bet you money that WotC did do such research, and aren't going to do something contrary to their own interests.
See, here's the bare bones version of my opinion on the above. *points up* and here folks we have another example of laws made for the good of the common people being used to hurt said people. *stops pointing up*
These laws are in place to protect everyone, and they certainly protect me; I have probably a thousand plus pages of stuff which is copyrighted on my computer due to this law. I think its a good thing, because it means people can't steal my ideas. And this isn't being used to hurt "the common people"; its being used to hurt someone who is hurting another person (namely, R_E, who is hurting a bunch of WotC/Hasbro people).
Quote from "Talen Lee" »
Yeah, big companies with money shouldn't get the same rights as the little man. Stuff 'em!
I think Talen Lee does a better job of summarizing this thread than people should feel comfortable with.
Quote from "Hawkeye7" »
It is intersting how the discussion is tracking at the moment. I wonder how many people on the payroll of the lawyers, Wizards or Hasbro are monitoring this and other threads/discussions. How many posts have they made to defend thier actions or try to turn public opinion against RE. Too bad you can't ask then to identify themselves like undercover police and have them be required to truthfully reply.
One person MIGHT look at the thread, but none are posting because they've been told not to and they have no reason to disobey (and every reason to obey). Your conspiracty theory holds no weight, because you hold no weight to WotC. The people who frequent MTGSalvation ultimately are not that important to WotC, and they've better things to do than post here.
Quote from "Twilight" »
I could be wrong here, but I always thought you actually had to file for a copyright, and that in doing so, the copyrighted materials became public record for anyone so inclined to look through the copyright records. Or maybe I'm thinking about patents...
You are, in fact, thinking of patents. Copyrights are automatic; people register their copyrights oftentimes, but you don't have to and it is just as valid.
Quote from "Letterhead" »
As much as most of your post offends my personal sensibilities and beliefs this is one part I feel that I need to reply to. The entire spoiler of every new set is up on Gatherer the Friday afternoon before the prerelease starts. While I admit it is possible that this is done simply to even out the field because whole sets are often leaked before the prerelease, there has been no indication that this is the case. Given that, I don't think this is a legitimate argument against what R_E is doing.
Actually, the complete WotC spoiler probably -does- go live at midnight of the prerelease, or possibly even afterwards... remember, you aren't the only time zone. The east coast of the US is about 17 hours behind the furthest time it could possibly be, so if it went live "friday afternoon" in the US it'd be going live "Saturday morning" in Australia, potentially even after midnight madness events (which already have "spoiled the set"). Given everyone in the same time zone has the same access to said information... additionally, it is difficult to get proficient in drafting a set in the however many hours you have there. If you have the spoiler two weeks before the prerelease, though, you'll be quite familar with it.
Quote from "Senori" »
For the record, PatentAttorney, his post went on about how he believed the authenticity of the cards was dubious at best.
IIRC he said they had a 4% chance of being real. However, that doesn't matter. Why? Because he knew he was taking the chance that they were real, and thus copyrighted. And thus, he probably can be said to have willfully violated the copyright laws. Which would really, really suck for him.
Can you show me where he got permission on THIS song? From what I read he pieced it together from RUMOURS on the FAN MESSAGE BOARD.
Doesn't actually matter, technically, as it is a parody, and parody is a transformative purpose. However, I'm sure he got permission from it, as he says he does so for every song (and IIRC he usually gets it).
Quote from "Psychoburner" »
So Fair Use protects Weird Al, who clearly profits from copying the music written by others, but does NOT protect R_E, who was obviously only informing people of the new cards? That is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard of.
Again... transformative use. R_E was NOT making transformative use of the subject matter; he was simply writing about it without permission. Weird Al does not copy the song wholesale; he changes it but sets it to the same tune, so it is obviously a parody of the song (and often of something else too). See "It Smells like Nirvana". Clearly a parody of the original song (and Kurt Kobain thought it was cool that he was parodied anyway). Parody is probably the best protected form of fair use.
I honestly think we are seeing a campaign of posts by people masquarding as new members to try to pass off the Wizards position as honest opinion. Look at how many brand new or very new members are making this thread their first or sole attempt to post here. New members almost never post in a manner like we are seeing here and never in this type of quantity.
Oh boy, it couldn't be because it is a front-page topic and a lot of people have viewpoints on it and consider it important enough to post about, do they? Your conspiracy theory is silly. WotC doesn't care what you think enough to do that.
Quote from "Hawkeye7" »
To shape the discussion and discredit the opposing voices is a standard formula used in the court of public opinion.
Make no mistake, some of what we are seeing here is exactly that.
It is Spin pure and simple.
Keep drumming the point that RE committed a crime.
keep repeating that Wizards is well within it's rights to act as it has.
Attempt to discredit those who disagree and are pointing out these tactics as conspiracy theorists.
Continue to drive the point that Wizards/Hasbro are so big and the Magic community is so much more then what happens here that any dissent by people here will not amount to a blip on the screen and thus is not worth the effort.
That he(RE) is up against a Billion dollar a year plus corporation and it is futile for him to continue to fight.
Repeatedly fly the balloon that all RE has to do is give up his sources and all this will go away like MAGIC.
This is their real goal. To quickly and inexpensively nail whoever is leaking the information.
Well, I don't do all of that, but I'm certainly pro-WotC. So obviously I'm astroturfing. Or is R_E paying you to astroturf for him, eh?
C'mon. If someone was astroturfing, it'd be obvious to everyone. Besides...
1) R_E did commit a crime. At least one lawyer has said as much, and the other, who is representing R_E, has admitted they have a case.
2) WotC IS well within their rights. Read the lawbooks.
3) You are a conspiracy theorist.
4) This is not precisely what has been said; what has been said is what you do won't make a difference. Which is, well, true.
5) Well, if he eats a $90,000 fine, he's toast. But he hasn't been approached for a settlement, so what choice does he have?
6) People say this because they think it will save R_E. There's a pretty good chance it won't.
7) No, this isn't their "real goal". This is what a bunch of people -think- is their real goal. People don't know what WotC's goal is, though it might well be to wreck R_E and ferret out the leaks - at the same time. And failing the latter, doing the former will send a message.
Quote from "Psychoburner" »
So, there are holes in the armor of Wizard's patents? That doesn't surprise me, although many of them aren't too useful in this case.
Does anyone really want to make a Magic: the gathering game that comes up with a different way of 'tapping' and doesnt use actual cards?
Does any of this help R_E's case? If it does, good job, if not, that's still a funny point you made, PatentAttorney
It does nothing, because this isn't about patents.
This is a case of a corporation suing one man. This is a case of suing for $90,000
Thing is, they're not asking for 90,000 in damages; they're asking for it for ligitation whatevers. Basically, its the way the music corporations got mp3.com - its a flat fee to basically penalize you for breaking the law rather than being directly proportional to damages.
Wizards wasn't very nice about the way they handled the suit, no doubt. Would you have been happier if they'd warned RE first? Does Maro's column bad-mouthing leaks suffice? What about the article warning that discussing unreleased cards is illegal?
Yeah, so? That hardly constitues a warning to R_E, who says he even read either of those articles?
Both articles are poorly written nonetheless, they were like two children continuing to argue even after their opponents have walked away, with no explanation of anything to boot. "Leaks are not nice cause they ruin the suprise...and they hurt players...and loose us money!"
And in reading Maro's article, I found this
Quote from Maro »
My comments today are directed at the sources of the leaks, not the press that reports them.
Then why sue R_E?
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The above post gets my approval-:spock:
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(no seriously, PM me with something good and Ill put it here)
Yeah, so? That hardly constitues a warning to R_E, who says he even read either of those articles?
I'm just trying to see if you would really demand that Wizards write R_E a formal C&D letter before suing, when their dislike of leaks is well-known in the online Magic community, where R_E is being described as a pillar.
"Leaks are not nice cause they ruin the suprise...and they hurt players...and loose us money!"And...you dispute some of those statements...? Or not?
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http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&r=1&l=50&f=G&d=PALL&s1=5662332.WKU.&OS=PN/5662332&RS=PN/5662332
It really does have a patent on tapping a card.
My decks:
Standard - MUC, Glittering Wish Control, Battle of Wits
Extended - White Rock, UW Control, Train Wreck
Legacy - SI, UbaStax, CounterSlivers
Vintage - Manaless Ichorid, Flash, Gush-a-Tog
Highlander - Burn, MUC
I test on MWS!
But seriously, what Wizards owns on these cards has got to be more cleearly defined even if RE loses this suit. By all I can make out what you're saying, you are interpreting facts (or at least, appearances of facts) to say that if I write about the text of any card (casually, without permission) I am breaking US copyright law, regardless of whether WotC protects that right.
If that is true, that is extremely sad.
If that is not true, that is a window.
EDIT: Found on Wikipedia (the link to the patent # is extremely informative)
Patent
Wizards of the Coast holds U.S. Patent 5,662,332 on trading card games. The patent, filed in October 1995 and granted in September 1997, covers:
In October 2003, Wizards of the Coast filed suit against Nintendo and related companies in U.S. District Court in Seattle shortly after its distribution agreement expired. The suit alleged, along with other claims, that the Pokémon Trading Card Game infringed on the company's patent. In December of that year, the parties settled the case on undisclosed terms, precluding a judicial ruling which might have been the first test of the patent's legal validity. As a result of this suit, the "magic cards" in the Yu-Gi-Oh! Trading Card Game are now called "spell cards".
-Ryan
Magic player of 7-8 years.
It's true. I'm a writer, and I've a strong interest in the way people prove points. Also, due to period debating and such, I'm very much used to being incisive. While it's a technically divisive thing to do, and I'm very much (in this issue) ruled by my emotions, it feels genuinely necessary to me. There are so many people who are putting forward perspectives on the matter that aren't just wrong, but are really quite insulting to the people at Wizards.
I find bigotry in either direction to be foolish. It's not like there's gay-bashing and sexism going on in this thread, but there's a strong, anti-corporate message that seems to think that Wizards is some kind of gigantic monolith that wanders around and inflicts cruelty on people before going back to its lair to inject puppies with AIDS.
It's true. And I distinctly doubt Wizards does that. I know Maro reads SCG. I know that many MTG writers read other MTG sites. But I also know that Wizards has better things to do with its time than employ me, and that PA, regardless of his source, has yet to say anything factually wrong.
The voices 'against' in this thread really seem to be just myself and PA. And we're definitely different people - you can see my activities all over the boards before GP came out, including a two-week ban, while PA just signed on (and has, I expect, an American IP).
I know what it could be. But I also estimate that Wizards has far better things to do with its time and money.
Starcity Games Featured Writer
Let this be our mantra – "There is more to the world than me.”
Wow, sounds like Hasbro or WOTC has a troll-lawyer chained in the basement of their building scheming up ways to thoroughly protect their intellectual property.
"Ho-ho-ho, Magic Tricks! I am going to slap a lawsuit on David Copperfield. Soon he will be reduced to holding optical illusion shows in Vegas. Wait, illusion is a creature type on our cards! Our cards are literature, for all intents and purposes. I will slap a lawsuit on him after that so then he will only have Optical sleight of mind shows... wait.... " - Magic Troll Lawyer
(don't take that too seriously anyone, just some contrived comic relief on my part)
Haha, yeah. You go into court and argue that quoting text from released cards is the same as circumventing WotC's security measures to find unreleased, unprinted cards and quoting them.
Quoting from released cards is "fair use." Quoting from unreleased cards isn't.
Make no mistake, some of what we are seeing here is exactly that.
It is Spin pure and simple.
Keep drumming the point that RE committed a crime.
keep repeating that Wizards is well within it's rights to act as it has.
Attempt to discredit those who disagree and are pointing out these tactics as conspiracy theorists.
Continue to drive the point that Wizards/Hasbro are so big and the Magic community is so much more then what happens here that any dissent by people here will not amount to a blip on the screen and thus is not worth the effort.
That he(RE) is up against a Billion dollar a year plus corporation and it is futile for him to continue to fight.
Repeatedly fly the balloon that all RE has to do is give up his sources and all this will go away like MAGIC.
This is their real goal. To quickly and inexpensively nail whoever is leaking the information.
You rarely see this kind of spin oputside of polital campaigns at least not this first hand.
I think Wizards/Hasbro is wrong.
They are wrong in their approach to their problem of an information leak.
I think that they are wrong to try to fiancially bankrupt a man who's actions so many of their loyal fans eagerly encouraged and supported.
I think that they are wrong in underestimating the damage to their game these actions are causing. I, for one, will not be purchasing any products made by their company again.
and finally I think this embarrassing attempt to spin this debacle only shows how out of touch they are with their fans.
Simply because they have the legal right to do something does not make it the right thing to do. Had they approached this problem of theirs a different way they would not need to engage in damage control now.
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I just read Wizards' patent (5,662,332). I must say, I'm not very impressed, and if I was Wizards, I would be quite disappointed in my patent counsel.
Look at the independent claims (1, 2, and 3). What limitation do you see in EVERY one of them? Why, they're all methods for PLAYING the game. Many of the steps EXPRESSLY STATE that they are steps performed by PLAYERS. The only people who infringe these claims are those who actually PLAY the game. An entity who merely MAKES and SELLS such a game does NOT literally and directly infringe these claims.
Additionally, claims 1 and 2 both require tapping, which would be easy to work around. Claim 3 isn't as narrow, but it's still a method for playing a game.
If I was writing a patent application, I would write the claims so that my client's competitors, rather than my client's customers, infringed the claims.
I'm surprised that any company caved to Wizards' assertions of patent infringement on this patent. I would gladly defend a game company against this patent.
Does seem kind of dumb if the patent only holds the players liable, and not other businesses though, would that actually hold up in a court of law? And didn't pokemon lose the legal battle with WotC involving said patent?
My decks:
Standard - MUC, Glittering Wish Control, Battle of Wits
Extended - White Rock, UW Control, Train Wreck
Legacy - SI, UbaStax, CounterSlivers
Vintage - Manaless Ichorid, Flash, Gush-a-Tog
Highlander - Burn, MUC
I test on MWS!
Does anyone really want to make a Magic: the gathering game that comes up with a different way of 'tapping' and doesnt use actual cards?
Does any of this help R_E's case? If it does, good job, if not, that's still a funny point you made, PatentAttorney
Not necessarily.
What about people who bought cards from you just to show their support, huh? huh?
And the rest of you, if you haven't gone to his site to buy cards, go now. He needs to cover expenses!
Click here to play a game.
It would seem that Pokemon settled before there was a verdict.
Personally, I think it sucks that R_E could end up ruined by all this, and I hope that doesn't happen. However, I find it hard to see Wizards as the evil empire here. People who leaked and posted spoilers knew that they were infringing, despite the whole "they never complained before" contention. The notion that reporting spoilers is journalism and the sense that players are entitled to spoilers is wrong, both factually and legally.
Regarding the argument that Wizards is in the right, but they're making a mistake anyway, I don't think that's really the case either. Those who have pointed out that the people who know about the suit is a tiny fraction of the game's customer base have it exactly right. Beyond that, the numbers who feel that Wizards is wrong is an even smaller piece, and of them, the number who care enough about the issue to stop buying product represents an even smaller fraction. Sometimes companies do make huge PR blunders, but I don't really see this being one.
All that said, I do wish R_E luck in avoiding the hammer.
C
I want Hasbro to show where R_E did $90,000 of damage to them. They need to show where he did ANY harm to their company. Not only that, but they're also charging him for their legal fees.
Legal fees?! They're trying to say that he needs to pay for THEIR lawyers. They've probably got a whole TEAM of lawyers on retainer because they're a corporation. I highly doubt these lawyers were called for R_E's case exclusively.
Hasbro needs to prove that $90,000 is a good amount.
Wow.
*stands up a slow claps*
That is one of the most sensible things Ive read in this entire thread. You hit the nail on the head with every one of your points.
Ignoring all legal mumbo jumbo being thrown around, Wizards is acting like Grade A aholes in this case. They are going after a man who is a blue collar worker, a man who has in no way shape of form harmed Wizards; if anything, his leaks have increased sales [at least for me, and I doubt I am alone] and he has done more for the online Magic community than any Wizards employee can possibly do [I know I visited 'News before MTG.com]. So Wizards repsonds by trying to destroy his financial future in one fell swoop? R_E is not Nintendo, and Wizards is just wrong to treat him like that. Wizards should worry more about tightening their security and less about ruining a man's life.
Simply put, every single Magic player should be ashamed by the way Wizards is handling this case.
Well, its does show a lot about one's integrity when they refuse to purchase a company's products based on business practices, I for example havent eaten Taco Bell in years because of the way they treat their laborers, and I sure as hell wont be buying any Wizards or Hasbro products for long time.
It is better to at least give it a try.
Don't forget MaRo's Life Lesson #3. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mr216
Mtg.com is also currently doing surveys. This is another way we can voice our opinions to WotC and give support to R_E
http://online.tns-global.com/wix/p129103291.aspx
Wizards wasn't very nice about the way they handled the suit, no doubt. Would you have been happier if they'd warned RE first? Does Maro's column bad-mouthing leaks suffice? What about the article warning that discussing unreleased cards is illegal?
Where is the distinction between speculation and copyright infringement and intellectual property?
If I were to speculate about something and post my speculation on a message board, and it happened to be correct - would that put me in danger of a copyright infringement?
What if I didn't have specific information about a piece of copyrighted material, but I had some bits and pieces (that may or may not be reliable) - how much of that information could I put on a message board with out being in an actionable position?
What if an employee of Ford Motor Company gave me a photograph of the latest concept art for the new Model Ford Focus, could I post that on a message board legally? Is it a copyright infringement or an intellectual property issue?
If someone gave me information regard one of Ford's cars, but I wasn't certain which one it is - say for example - one of the new Ford cars will have 6 doors, a specific stereo system, and a particular style of wheels. If I disclose that information am I giving away trade secrets?
How do any of these things differ if I was a reporter making a "breaking news story"?
Does intellectual property rights protect against 3rd party disclosure after that IP has been disclosed by the holder?
Thanks again!
I'd love input and advice!
Do you really expect us to believe that you follow this same doctrine for every product you consume in your life? What kind of car do you drive, what kind of clothes do you wear? What kind of food do you eat, hell.. what web-browser are you using? Almost every company out there has probably used tactics like these (or worse in most cases) to protect its products and investments. I just dont buy this as an honest argument.
#1 - No.
#2 - N/A, N/A
#3 - N/A, N/A
Not an argument, but a statement. This is an argument.
And R_E the money I stated in the Opinion section, if you lose, I will send to you quarterly until the fees are paid off.
Superannuated canines are immune to indoctrination and innovative maneuvers.
Claiming WotC is being evil for suing him for $90,000 is silly. Honestly. They own the property, and if you came up with some great idea, and someone disseminated it without your consent and cost you money (as this probably does, given WotC's policy towards spoilrs), you'd be ticked.
Second, this has nothing to do with customer service. Orbitz's fiasco with Maddox was due to a screw up on Orbitz's part. R_E's fiasco with WotC is due to a screw up on R_E's part. He broke the law, not WotC. Thus, he's the one who is getting in trouble.
This is in no way the same thing as any of those. They're PATENTS. This is about copyrights. Biiig difference and totally different sets of laws.
This has nothing to do with it, and what AT&T does in that capacity is illegal (as is what the federal government did).
No, they don't and again, this has nothing to do with patent law.
That saves lives, this does nothing except cost WotC money, and is an utterly different case anyway because, again, patents vs. copyrights.
So are you stepping up to be sued for 90 grand next?
This is irrelevant. People do not sue every single copyright infringer, because it is very difficult to do. If you take an artists work, though, and make a banner out of it without their permission, then you've violated their copyright on the image. It doesn't matter if it makes them money or not, it is still illegal and you could still be sued.
Simple: because once they're released, WotC doesn't care if you post images of the card. They possibly could still sue you, but I think you could argue it was fair use because it was image of a product (i.e. a magic card) rather than of a concept (i.e. a nonreleased Magic card's art, text, ect.). Also, I think that WotC gives permission to use their text and images and stuff for certain purposes. You'd have to check, though.
It is their information to do with and sell as they please. Additionally, how do you know it has increased interest? WotC says its bad for them; if it was good for them, they'd do it themselves.
Again, have you done extensive market research on the matter? I'll bet you money that WotC did do such research, and aren't going to do something contrary to their own interests.
These laws are in place to protect everyone, and they certainly protect me; I have probably a thousand plus pages of stuff which is copyrighted on my computer due to this law. I think its a good thing, because it means people can't steal my ideas. And this isn't being used to hurt "the common people"; its being used to hurt someone who is hurting another person (namely, R_E, who is hurting a bunch of WotC/Hasbro people).
I think Talen Lee does a better job of summarizing this thread than people should feel comfortable with.
One person MIGHT look at the thread, but none are posting because they've been told not to and they have no reason to disobey (and every reason to obey). Your conspiracty theory holds no weight, because you hold no weight to WotC. The people who frequent MTGSalvation ultimately are not that important to WotC, and they've better things to do than post here.
You are, in fact, thinking of patents. Copyrights are automatic; people register their copyrights oftentimes, but you don't have to and it is just as valid.
Actually, the complete WotC spoiler probably -does- go live at midnight of the prerelease, or possibly even afterwards... remember, you aren't the only time zone. The east coast of the US is about 17 hours behind the furthest time it could possibly be, so if it went live "friday afternoon" in the US it'd be going live "Saturday morning" in Australia, potentially even after midnight madness events (which already have "spoiled the set"). Given everyone in the same time zone has the same access to said information... additionally, it is difficult to get proficient in drafting a set in the however many hours you have there. If you have the spoiler two weeks before the prerelease, though, you'll be quite familar with it.
IIRC he said they had a 4% chance of being real. However, that doesn't matter. Why? Because he knew he was taking the chance that they were real, and thus copyrighted. And thus, he probably can be said to have willfully violated the copyright laws. Which would really, really suck for him.
Doesn't actually matter, technically, as it is a parody, and parody is a transformative purpose. However, I'm sure he got permission from it, as he says he does so for every song (and IIRC he usually gets it).
Again... transformative use. R_E was NOT making transformative use of the subject matter; he was simply writing about it without permission. Weird Al does not copy the song wholesale; he changes it but sets it to the same tune, so it is obviously a parody of the song (and often of something else too). See "It Smells like Nirvana". Clearly a parody of the original song (and Kurt Kobain thought it was cool that he was parodied anyway). Parody is probably the best protected form of fair use.
Oh boy, it couldn't be because it is a front-page topic and a lot of people have viewpoints on it and consider it important enough to post about, do they? Your conspiracy theory is silly. WotC doesn't care what you think enough to do that.
Well, I don't do all of that, but I'm certainly pro-WotC. So obviously I'm astroturfing. Or is R_E paying you to astroturf for him, eh?
C'mon. If someone was astroturfing, it'd be obvious to everyone. Besides...
1) R_E did commit a crime. At least one lawyer has said as much, and the other, who is representing R_E, has admitted they have a case.
2) WotC IS well within their rights. Read the lawbooks.
3) You are a conspiracy theorist.
4) This is not precisely what has been said; what has been said is what you do won't make a difference. Which is, well, true.
5) Well, if he eats a $90,000 fine, he's toast. But he hasn't been approached for a settlement, so what choice does he have?
6) People say this because they think it will save R_E. There's a pretty good chance it won't.
7) No, this isn't their "real goal". This is what a bunch of people -think- is their real goal. People don't know what WotC's goal is, though it might well be to wreck R_E and ferret out the leaks - at the same time. And failing the latter, doing the former will send a message.
It does nothing, because this isn't about patents.
Thing is, they're not asking for 90,000 in damages; they're asking for it for ligitation whatevers. Basically, its the way the music corporations got mp3.com - its a flat fee to basically penalize you for breaking the law rather than being directly proportional to damages.
Yeah, so? That hardly constitues a warning to R_E, who says he even read either of those articles?
Both articles are poorly written nonetheless, they were like two children continuing to argue even after their opponents have walked away, with no explanation of anything to boot.
"Leaks are not nice cause they ruin the suprise...and they hurt players...and loose us money!"
And in reading Maro's article, I found this
Then why sue R_E?
"Leaks are not nice cause they ruin the suprise...and they hurt players...and loose us money!"And...you dispute some of those statements...? Or not?